Vote Early

[lookout123]

Originally posted by lumberjim
that's a joke, right, 123?

what specifically has bush NOT mucked up?

no - it's not a joke. i know he has made mistakes. although i generally support him. i despise his immigration policies and am not real happy of the whole medicare thing. but to just say he has screwed EVERYTHING up??? you can do better than that.

[Kitsune]

but to just say he has screwed EVERYTHING up???

Well, the wealthy corporation owners are quite happy under his administration, so I guess he hasn't fucked everyone.

[Undertoad]

123 has a point, and firmer rhetoric isn't the answer.

[lookout123]

[i]Originally posted by Kitsune [/i

Well, the wealthy corporation owners are quite happy under his administration, so I guess he hasn't fucked everyone. [/b]

oh - i forgot, you didn't get a check back because someone "rich" got yours. your "working-class" candidate kerry will probably fix it all, so just hang in there.

the dems are just as guilty of catering to the rich as the Rs. if you want to fix that -well, you will have to scrap the whole damn tax code. (which i am in favor of, BTW)

[Kitsune]

123 has a point, and firmer rhetoric isn't the answer.

True.

I posed the question of why people are voting because, well, I can't actually look at either of the main candidates and say, "Wow, I really like his stance on..." or "I really like his ideas on..." It just doesn't happen for either of them and I get the feeling that this election is more about what people don't like about the person they are not voting for. That is, honestly, a big problem.

Can anyone list out what things they like about Kerry that would better the US?

Can anyone list out what things have improved since Bush entered office that are his doing?

Minus all the mud slinging (mine included), I'd like to hear what people like about the candidates.

(and I promise to cease pointing out the bad things about either candidate from here, out, in this thread)

Try it. I dare you. Point out the good things.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by lookout123
if you can honestly say that kerry has a better plan for improving this nation's position within the world; then by all means vote for the man. but if you can't be honest enough to vote FOR a person running the don't vote. i wish there were other choices for president - but there are not for this current campaign. Carefully choose a person to vote FOR - don't just blindly vote AGAINST someone.

the "anybody but Bush" or "anybody but Kerry" mentality is just plain screwed up.

Well, I'd love to completely change the American electoral system, but I can't see that happening in the next 7 months, so I've gotta work with what's available. Here's what's available:






John Kerry




George Bush

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by lookout123
sorry - hit the wrong button.

yes there is something wrong with voting for someone just because you don't like the other one. this isn't an election for homecoming king. the person elected will be stearing this nation for the next 4 years.
if you can honestly say that kerry has a better plan for improving this nation's position within the world; then by all means vote for the man. but if you can't be honest enough to vote FOR a person running the don't vote. i wish there were other choices for president - but there are not for this current campaign. Carefully choose a person to vote FOR - don't just blindly vote AGAINST someone.

The problem with this is that society tells people to vote, and to not complain when things don't go your way. Besides, when there is only really two candidates that will actually be voted on (that's not to say that Nader won't be voted for, but come on. The bulk of votes will go to either Bush or Kerry).

So, what's a citizen to do? And quite honestly, that is exactly how some people choose their leaders. You don't think that people will choose Bush for a second term just because he did such great and monumental things for the country. I'm willing to bet that many people will vote for him because he's well known, and that he's the current "war" president, and those people don't want to change things in mid stream. They'll vote for what's "comfortable" and not be bothered too tough with the policies and politics.

the "anybody but Bush" or "anybody but Kerry" mentality is just plain screwed up.

Calling someone "screwed up" isn't going to get people to not vote the "anybody but" route.

[lumberjim]

Originally posted by lookout123


no - it's not a joke. i know he has made mistakes. although i generally support him. i despise his immigration policies and am not real happy of the whole medicare thing. but to just say he has screwed EVERYTHING up??? you can do better than that.

I could do better than that, it's true. but not MUCH better.

I know next to nothing about Kerry. I know enough about Bush, that I honestly feel that if he has another term(where he would not be hindered by thoughts of the next election) that he will have this country so deep in an unwinnable war in the ME, our world image so damaged, and our civil liberties so stripped ( including free speech and privacy) that it will be unrecoverable.

say good bye to the land of the free. say hello to the 4th reich.


and you say voting against someone is foolish?

what

the

fuck?

[lookout123]

here goes -

1) i like the fact that bush, to this point, refuses to tuck tail and run from iraq because the going is rough. YES - i believe we need a better exit strategy. i have a little personal knowledge about being in the military when your president pulls out of a conflict after not giving the troops full support and the order to go win.

2) i like the fact that bush, doesn't bow to the UN. the UN is simply a tool - it is not a force that we should allow to govern our actions in ways that are counter to our interests. YES - you've guessed it, i'm not a globalist.

3) i like the fact that bush didn't back down when historical allies (france and germany) shouted him down. i believe that bush understands that those nations are (understandably, from their view) trying to re-assert european thought as the center of the world. (bad grammar but you know what i mean)

4) i like the fact that bush has lowered MY taxes. which believe it or not did put a little extra cash in people's hands. in my business, i actually saw a surge in spending at around the same thing. bush was not the reason for the economic collapse, just like he wasn't the sole reason for the recovery. just as clinton was not the reason that the economy surged in the late 90's. the economy is cyclical. it happens whether you like it or not. it has very little to do with which party is in power.

and to be fair

5) i despise his immigration policy. i don't see any "unfillable" jobs laying vacant in america. at least not while we are also paying other american's unemployment. this was simply a move to pander to the hispanic vote.

6) social security and medicare are failing - let's make them bigger entitlements... WTF???

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by Kitsune
Can anyone list out what things they like about Kerry that would better the US?

AIDS Policy:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/aids/

Freedom, Independence, and Choices for Americans with Disabilities:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/awd/

Civil Rights:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/civilrights/

Crime:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/crime/

Economy and Jobs:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/economy/

Strengthening America's Schools for the 21st Century:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/education/

Energy and Environment:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/energy/

And other things. Check the site.

Can anyone list out what things have improved since Bush entered office that are his doing?

*crickets....*

Sorry. As I said before I don't like him, I don't feel I have to like him and that's that. And yeah, a part of me does say "anyone but Bush", and if that's how I feel, then so be it. However, I do take the issues in consideration, and I feel that Kerry best reflects how I feel on certain issues.

[Kitsune]

Damn, Lookout123 -- you did something I haven't heard anyone else accomplish, which is to successfully list reasons you would like to vote for one of the candidates.

Too bad they're all wrong.

But you still get my congratulations. Everyone I know voting for Kerry is simply voting against Bush for his actions while in office, but have nothing positive to say for Kerry. Everyone I know voting for Bush is voting because they hate Democrats or don't like the look of Kerry's face. (Yeah, I'm not lieing about that.)

I'd like to say that I like Kerry because he plans to get our troops out of Iraq. Too bad he hasn't actually stated what that plan is or how to go about it in the right way.

The sad part of this election is that I have nothing positive to say about either of the two main candidates. Suck.

[lookout123]

Originally posted by lumberjim


...our world image so damaged...

our world image? our world image has not changed that much. the same people who didn't like us before are just standing up to shout now. i worked alongside with members of the french and german military 11 years ago. they didn't like us then. in 1945, shortly after our soldiers freed france, they looked upon us with disdain.

we are not here to win a popularity contest. on an international level i will take respect rooted in fear over love anyday. not a fear of the unpredictable, but a fear that if x nation is pushed too far, they will DEVASTATE their opponents.

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by lumberjim
I know next to nothing about Kerry.

Go check out his site. IMO, worth reading and getting to "know" him and his stances.

I know enough about Bush, that I honestly feel that if he has another term(where he would not be hindered by thoughts of the next election) that he will have this country so deep in an unwinnable war in the ME, our world image so damaged, and our civil liberties so stripped ( including free speech and privacy) that it will be unrecoverable.

Could not have said it better.

say good bye to the land of the free. say hello to the 4th reich.
and you say voting against someone is foolish?

what

the

fuck?

I wouldn't say it was "foolish" but I would hope that those people would also see what the candidates stand for, and then vote accordingly. And hey: if in the end they still vote the way of "anyone but", then oh well. You can't force someone to vote a certain way.

[Kitsune]

...and thank you, Ladysycamore. I have a lot of research to do before election time by reading this stuff. (all while ignoring the media)

Are there any planned debates coming up between these two guys, yet?

[lookout123]

Originally posted by ladysycamore


Sorry. As I said before I don't like him, I don't feel I have to like him and that's that. And yeah, a part of me does say "anyone but Bush", and if that's how I feel, then so be it. However, I do take the issues in consideration, and I feel that Kerry best reflects how I feel on certain issues.

and for that i have great respect. you have a reason (s) to vote FOR kerry. i disagree with them and hope that more electoral votes go my way, but that is ok.

if everyone had my view of the world, we would all go overboard and live in a world of shit. it goes the other way too - if everybody felt the way you do on issues it would swing too far the other way and it may look different but it would still be shit.

that's the beauty of our system folks - we are meant to balance each other out.

but anyway - good luck with your vote for kerry, you have reasons to vote FOR him.