8/21/2003: Huge pig sacrificed

[LUVBUGZ]

[quote]Originally posted by quzah

You all have the misgiving that I actually care what you think about me. Manners are like appareance. They're both for people who worry what others think of them. You've got me confused with someone else.

I think everyone realizes that you don't care what people think of you and your beliefs, which begs the question, why you do you bother to visit the Cellar, read posts, and make posts yourself?

LUVBUGZ's one major failing is the inability to concede a point. That's the only problem I have with them. They're like those religious zelots who "know" there is only one "right way", and if you believe anything even the slightest bit different, you're wrong, and they cannot grasp, or will not even entertain the idea that you may have a valid point.

You are wrong here. I will admit when I'm wrong when you prove that I am. I am willing to entertain the ideas of others, but am also willing to disagree with them and attempt to justify my reasons for disagreeing. On several occasions I have in fact agreed with you on some points, but you apparently didn't notice, or didn't care.

Case and point, they gloss over any valid point the opposition may have, and you have to ask them repetedly to acknowledge said point. If in doubt, read back a bit and you'll find that Juju also had to ask repetedly about points they had.

I attempt to respond to every question or point that is brought up and I don't think I have glossed over anything, although I still need to respond to a couple of questions Juju asked of me. I'm not glossing over them or ignoring them, but I was embroiled in our debate and left them to be answered at a later time. Sorry to you Juju for not responding in a timely manner, but I will respond.

That is my problem with them. They cannot even entertain the notion that some one else may have a valid point. This is my one real gripe.

I would entertain this notion if I felt you had a valid point. Aside from the times I have agreed with you, I still don't believe you have a valid point, well maybe some valid points, but overall I do not agree with most of what you have said.

Since they've got their crackerjack diploma in Biology, that makes their point of view 100% valid in all understandings of Biology, so don't you dare fucking question them becaue you're wrong!

You know this is an uncalled for comment. My degree is important to me and it took me a long time to get it. I'm not saying my point of view is 100% valid regarding all biological issues, but I feel having it gives me a more informed view than say the general public. If something can be explained or validated through a biologically based answer, I will provide that information to the best of my ability. I am by far an expert in Biology, in fact, a majority of my commentary in this discussion has come from my experience with animal rescue work I have done, not just from Biology. You may correct my biological info. as I said I'm no expert, but you cannot disprove my life experiences. I feel the way I do about animal right's and animal welfare because of my experiences. In fact, most biologists I have met or worked with have very different opinions on these subjects. Most disagree with me, fortunately those discussions didn't sink to level of this one, which I agree is partially my fault.

Another case and point: Them going off on me for swearing, when they do it themselves. So it's bad if I do it, but it's ok if they do. And they tell me to look up the word hyporcite. Give me a break.

As I've said before, I've read this thread several times and still don't see where I "went off" on you for cussing, only for your spewing of rediculous, irrational, and invalid comments. As is obvious, I cuss too, a lot when I'm pissed, while offensive to some I still do it, so cuss away, I don't give a rat's ass.

[LUVBUGZ]

Originally posted by juju
If you hadn't attacked her, she wouldn't wouldn't feel like you're threatening her worth as a person. She wouldn't have closed her mind to your point of view (a defense mechanism) and would then have been more receptive to what you had to say.

My mind is not yet closed to Quzah's point of view, but I still believe that my point of view is more rational than his/hers.

[LUVBUGZ]

Originally posted by quzah

So misjudging isn't insulting? How so?

It's all in the implication and perception there of. You took no offense, because it wasn't about you. The implication here is that I'm an asshole. Thus: "All the Quzahs of the world...". It doesn't matter if it's true or not.

Quzah, I don't know why you are so concerened about my "misjudging" and "insulting" you, remember saying this..."You all have the misgiving that I actually care what you think about me." And you have said yourself that you're an asshole, I was just agreeing with you.

[LUVBUGZ]

Originally posted by quzah

Then the both of you have no understanding of sarcasm either. There's nothing I can do about that. I don't give lessons, just posts.

Quzah.

I live and breathe sarcasm, Quzah. I'm quite familiar with it, but by not knowing someone on personal level before using sarcasm I've gotten myself in some deep shit with it. It often comes across as rude, disrespectful, and cruel to other people if they don't know you and don't realize you are being sarcastic. I usually preface my dealings with people I don't know very well by straight out telling them I have a sarcastic and dry sense of humor.

[LUVBUGZ]

Originally posted by juju
Ok, I'll give this another shot.

Speaking from your point of view as a communicator, it doesn't matter whether or not she insulted you. Your goal is to get her to understand you. What you're doing is undermining that goal. That can be evidenced by the fact that she now hates you and probably immediately rejects every point you say. Congratulations.

Well, Juju, I think I might "hate" Quzah a little, I definitely think he/she is a big asshole who is impossible to deal with on a rational level, but oddly enough I think we have similar views on some things, for example, in the Fallen Bridge "Tragedy" over in the IotD thread. I can't say that I will automatically reject every point he/she makes, but I definitely cringe when I see the name Quzah. I do think we got off on the wrong foot, but I'm not apologizing for anything I've said because I feel my views on spaying and neutering your pets is reasonable, humane, and valid.

[LUVBUGZ]

Originally posted by juju
She's new, and sized you up based on your words. Then instead of just correcting her, you corrected her and were a jerk about it. Then she very nicely apologized.

Yea, Quzah, I apologized when I realized I had misjudged you (in the beginning). But, like I just told Juju, I don't apologize for anything else I've said (ref. last post to Juju). And, as it turns out you are an asshole, you said so yourself. So what, I've readily admitted to being one myself, but that in and of itself does not invalidate my views. There are many kind, caring, non-asshole people who feel the same way I do about spaying and neutering pets.

[LUVBUGZ]

Quote by Juju:
Those are all things you consider bad. Are you sure the animal would agree?

Juju...I don't know what I know and what I don't know anymore. I guess I figured "if" you could tell your dog that he would be safer (not running around after females in heat getting hit by cars, getting lost in the process, getting into fights with other males, getting injured by the guy whos female he is trying to screw, etc.) by being neutered that this my not sound so bad to some of them. Since we unfortunately don't know what our pets are "thinking" I can't say that I'm 100% "sure" that they would agree. I can only assume that they would prefer to be home, safe, fed, and loved as opposed to running around after females, getting lost, possibly being injured, with no food or shelter. Maybe that's stupid, idiotic, ridiculous, whatever, but that's my opinion.

Quote by Juju:
How so? (I know you're probably joking, but I wasn't sure. )

If some human males where prohibited from breeding whether through castration or vasectomy, the world would be a better place. Rapists and murderers come to mind, along with those low lifes that run around getting several women pregnant and then claim that none of the eight kids in question are his so he doesn't have anything to do with them and doesn't pay to take care of them. This also applies to some women as well, except in this case they would get "spayed" or at least have their tubes tied. Crack hoes come to mind who keep giving birth to addicted babies that have many medical problems and are usually effected for the rest of their lives if they don't die first. I could go on and on, but I think I have sufficiently answered your questions. If there are any others I haven't addressed, I'm sorry. If you bring them to my attention I will answer them for you. Thank you for your time and patience.

[xoxoxoBruce]

[i]Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Juju...I don't know what I know and what I don't know anymore. I guess I figured "if" you could tell your dog that he would be safer (not running around after females in heat getting hit by cars, getting lost in the process, getting into fights with other males, getting injured by the guy whos female he is trying to screw, etc.) by being neutered that this my not sound so bad to some of them. Since we unfortunately don't know what our pets are "thinking" I can't say that I'm 100% "sure" that they would agree. I can only assume that they would prefer to be home, safe, fed, and loved as opposed to running around after females, getting lost, possibly being injured, with no food or shelter. Maybe that's stupid, idiotic, ridiculous, whatever, but that's my opinion. [/b]

And your entitled to it. You seem to be taken aback by the resistance to what you thought was a given. Most people will agree in principle, with the merits of spay/neuter, even if they don't practice it. There will always be people, especially on the anonymous internet, that will argue anything, sometimes convincingly.
But the fact remains, that pets are our responsibility to care for. They're not too smart or they wouldn't look up to humans.
The spay/neuter program is not some human whim, but a sound, logical and proven way to improve the health and welfare of our pets. Idealogical arguments be damned, it works.

[LUVBUGZ]

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
You seem to be taken aback by the resistance to what you thought was a given. Most people will agree in principle, with the merits of spay/neuter, even if they don't practice it. There will always be people, especially on the anonymous internet, that will argue anything, sometimes convincingly.

Yea, Bruce I'm taken aback, but not by the resistance to what I "think" is a given. To me it *is* a given, period. I thought I would attempt to show this to others, but obviously I have failed. I've learned one thing though through all this, that if someone is too fucking stupid to realize the benefits of spaying and neutering their pets, then I can talk until I'm blue in the face and it won't change one damn thing. So from now on unless someone shows that they have the intelligence level to hold a rational conversation I'm not going to waste my time and energy dealing with them. Unfortunate as that sounds, my sanity is more important to me than trying to change the views of irrational people.

[bmgb]

Maybe the reason there aren't more people coming on here and saying BUGZ is right, is because we all believe it IS a given. Let's see... would my Dusty (cat) prefer to be living in the wild (or more likely, on the street) having promiscuous sex with tomcats and squeezing out litter after starving litter of unwanted kitties? Or would she prefer to be living in my climate-controlled house, eating to her hearts content and cuddling with me? I think the answer is clear, and she tells me this everyday (in not so many words).

Having her live with me and not be spayed is not really an option. Then she would be rolling around and caterwauling, wondering why she can't get laid. (There is only room for ONE female doing that in my household.)

I respect Quzah's philosophy of non-interference to a certain extent (especially when it comes to "food" animals). The problem is we've already "altered" dogs and cats by breeding them to live with us and be our companions. Whether this was right or wrong in the first place, the reality is they prefer to live as our companions. And the best way to make them healthy and happy is to have them spayed and neutered. Plain and simple.

[LUVBUGZ]

Thank You B, I knew I couldn't possibly be the only one around here who felt this way. It seems to me that most would rather sit around watching the "fireworks" and complain about my poor communication skills rather than risk their integrity within the Cellar and voice their support regarding this issue.

[xoxoxoBruce]

BUGZ if you look at the thread you'll see that B was not the only one to support your position on spay/neuter pets.

[Whit]

      You're right Bruce, bmgb wasn't the only one to support Bugz's position. However, if you are talking about yourself then you need to double check with someone who knows about these things before you opinion can be considered valid.

[xoxoxoBruce]

True, but once I'm validated, I park for free.

[LUVBUGZ]

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
BUGZ if you look at the thread you'll see that B was not the only one to support your position on spay/neuter pets.

I realize that Bruce, that's why I said "It seems to me that most would..."

Whit, that's quite enough of these comments...."However, if you are talking about yourself [Bruce] then you need to double check with someone who knows about these things before you opinion can be considered valid." AFAIK, Bruce was fully aware that I was joking in the Pagen thread and since the comment was made to him I don't see the need for you to continue dwelling on it. Your point was made and taken, Thank you for contributing