Where Is Sex?

[DanaC]

I mean figures to show that the condition mainly affects men.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

However our genes nonetheless still control our sex,

That's question-begging.

The prenatal hormonal environment is a profound influence too, and can override genetic influence at various stages of fetal development.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

...I want sex all the time.

That's only because you're horny.

[9th Engineer]

Hmmm, I'll look into some stats but give me a little for numbers. The reason I mentioned men specifically is that males are more vulnerable due to the method of sex differentiation. I'll explain, but for now I'll exclude the disorders. There are four major steps in normal human sex differentiation:
1: Fertilization and determination of genetic sex
2: Formation of organs common between both sexes
3: Gonadal differentiation
4: Differentiation of the internal ducts and external genitalia

The first step is the obvious one, you either get an X or a Y chromasome from your father which determines your genetic sex, either XX female or XY male. In the second, the embryo diffentiates into the cell which will become most of your organs, lungs, heart, kidneys, you get the idea. However the first stage of gonad development is also common, all embryos develop the same gonadal ridges, internal ducts, and external genitalia. Now the gonadal ridges are plainly visible at 5 weeks, and is a critical stage, if you have defects in DAX-1, SOX-9 or a number of different genes, you will not develop either testes or ovaries. By the 7th week, both male and female fetuses have both the Mullerian and Wolffian ducts, while appearing female due to the presence of urethral folds and the urogenital opening.
Now, part of what Maggie was referring to occurs in the third stage, the differentiation of the gonadal ridge into either testes or ovaries. Remember how up until this point the fetus was anatomically female? At this point if the Y chromosome is present then the SRY factor will cause it to develop into testes. The female anatomy is caused by the lack of a differentiating factor, meaning that if something goes wrong at this stage the fetus automatically developes female genitalia while still being chromasomally male.
The last step is similar. If testes are present then the sertoli cells will begin to produce MIS (mullerian inhibiting substance) which will halt the growth of the mullerian ducts present since the 2nd phase. In addition, androgens are now being released by the leydig cells which will cause further development of the wolffian ducts (becoming the epididymis, vas deferens, etc). The female counterparts are once again determined by the absence of these differentiating factors.
Now you're probably familiar with hermaphroditism, and know that it comes in three varieties, true, male, and female. We didn't cover what causes true hermaphroditism, but the female variation is usually caused by congenital adrenal hyperplasia (adrenal glands which overproduce testosterone), and the male variation is typically androgen insensitivity syndrome which is exactly what it sounds like.
That's all we covered and I can get from my textbooks, I might look up some case studies on EBSCO or the medical database, but don't hold your breath right away. I just started Christmas break, and researching this stuff in more detail than I have to know is not high on my priority list at the moment.

Can anyone direct me to a good eggnog recipe?

[Ibby]

So, cutting past all the bullshit and boring science talk, what you're saying, 9th, is that sex is entirely... based on... chromosomes? or physical anatomy?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Are you looking for the cocktail party answer to the meaning of life?

[Pangloss62]

A persons gender is either male or female as determined by their chromosome structure.

Anthropologically speaking, "gender" is defined by one's chosen manner of presenting him or herself to the world; it is more cultural than biological. "Sex" is the biologically determined aspect of maleness or femaleness. Both categories are not always either/or, either. Not everyone uses the word "gender" this way, but I think it helps to make the distinction from mere "sex" when considering how complex cultures can be in defining what sorts of behaviours, clothes, choice of language, are either "male" or "female."

[xoxoxoBruce]

Good point, people don't see your chromosomes, only what you present to them.

[Ibby]

I'm so confused. I identify completely as gay, but I have a girlfriend. I've got a cock. Does that mean I identify as a woman? I don't think of myself as a guy. But I don't think of myself as a girl. I resign to being treated like and calling myself a guy. But I resent it. I hate everything that being masculine, that being a guy, stands for.

I'm so tired. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Damnit, I hate being the typical whiny teenager.

[Clodfobble]

Ibram, if I may make an assessment based on what I've seen of you here... keeping in mind this is just my interpretation, and in no way a definition of how you feel... you are not gay. You seem philosophically gay, meaning you have logically concluded that in being truly tolerant, you have to accept the possibility of a male relationship for yourself as being equal to the possibility of a female relationship. You also have a healthy amount of bad experiences with what is typically considered masculine, so you deliberately shy away from that label as well.

But, in the end, I think you are straight. Your hormones are at a particularly trying point right now, and I think you may ultimately realize that the recognition of another man as being attractive is more an intellectual feeling, and does not come to the same level of intensity you will have for your girlfriend or other women who are emotionally attractive to you. You are one of those guys that women will dream about: the sensitive, caring, listening, nonprejudicial type. But there's nothing wrong with being more attracted to one thing than another, even if it seems arbitrary. I like guys with glasses, for example. It's not fair, and I certainly wouldn't write off a potential guy just because he didn't wear glasses, but in the end, I'm attracted to what I'm attracted to, and there's nothing wrong with that. But like I said, I could be completely wrong, no one can know for sure but you. But I've known a lot of gay men, and a lot of "sensitive" straight men, and you definitely seem to me to be the latter.

[Ibby]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, even though I'm NOT gay, I've got a girlfriend, I'm definitely bi. I like the menfolk. A lot. Now, I wouldnt ever do anything with one, but that is because I have a girlfriend who I am completely, utterly devoted to and will love forever. I am not straight, that's for certain.

The semi-point of the last post, if there was one at all, is that I feel gay, I identify as gay, and I dont feel like a guy, so I'm really confused, and not entirely satisfied just labeling myself as a bisexual dude. I think a more accurate description would be... a different definition of bisexual, bisexual as... identifying as, being part of, liking, and just plain associating as both sexes. Genderblind, thats it. I see sex as a useless distinction. The only problem is that people try to fit their stereotypes, which sucks. But to me, gender isnt of any real... well, not importance, but... I dont know, some word that's similar to importance... but its... its not a distinction i need. However, as a teen, I feel a need to label everything, including myself.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Ibram

I resign to being treated like and calling myself a guy. But I resent it. I hate everything that being masculine, that being a guy, stands for.

You may be a little close to the military to see this but on the outside people are defining themselves. For me, being a guy means being a good dad and a good husband and living my life my way, but thats my definition. You get to define being what a guy is. Its not all about macho bullshit.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Ibram

snip~I hate everything that being masculine, that being a guy, stands for.~snip

If you hate these "things", you must know what they are, so what does being a guy stand for?
And where did you get this information? Media portrayal? Observations? Other peoples opinions?

I hesitate to bring up your age, because I'm sure you get that quite enough. But, that said, it's important in this discussion.

Up to now, to get by, all you had to do was what you were told (more or less) by your folks, teachers, etc. Now you've reached an age where you have to interact with the world, outside your family/friends/school, you want to know where you fit in. In order to find where you fit in, you want to be able to define yourself and that's hard.

I think the honest truth is you don't fit in....except with all the other teens that are wondering the same thing you are. Don't be fooled by your peers that think they've got it all together, they just think they do...some are in for big surprises.

You especially, being a military brat, have missed a continuity in your life that promotes some familiarity bred confidence. Maybe more so, because of your Dad's assignments aren't strictly military bases, but a lot of far flung civilian settings, so you don't have a lot of other military brats to commiserate with.

Maybe it would be better not to try to define yourself just yet. Not before you have to, anyway. Just take it as it comes..... do and act according to what you're comfortable with.... rather than what you think you must do to reaffirm some preconceived notion of who you are.

I know you are not stupid from your posts. But I am doing a lot of speculating and making judgments, about you and your life, that I have no evidence to back up.
So if I'm way off base, sorry, no offense intended, just forget it.

edit- While I was typing all that, griff slid in and nailed it with a lot less verbage.

[9th Engineer]

cutting past all the bullshit and boring science talk

<insert>rant about boring science talk comment</insert>

Ok then. I was really just throwing some information out there to clarify my comment about males being more susceptible to disorders which influence their sex phenotype, wasn't really applying it to the overarching question just yet.

Let me ask this. Do you guys think we need to separate our understanding of sex and gender into two catagories? Sort of a personal and public thing to over-simplify it. It struck me that most things that we find really personal or self-defining rarely exist in the exact same form in both our private and public identities. We're making the definition of 'sex' so broad that there's no way to pin it down to something everyone can see and understand from the same angle. There's a huge biological component, no denying that, but we also want to throw in the psychological, which is what Ibram mostly refers to. Are these the same thing? Are they equally as important? Who is each important to? These aren't easy questions that we've left lodged within the bigger one, so I think we've incorrectly defined our parameters here. Perhaps a detailed look at our own definitions would help clarify a few things.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Griff

You get to define being what a guy is.

You have more to say about it than you used to in decades past. But you certainly don't control it all...and if you're gender dysphoric you don't control enough of it. Not to mention that "being a guy" is more than social roles and expectations.

I giess I can speak from expereince on this...having lived in decades past and having been biologically a guy once, and biologically a woman now. The hormone balance makes a *huge* difference...and back before I transitioned I got to listen to the "you get to define your own gender role now" speech given to me more than once. Wasn't true then and I doubt it's much truer now.

Being bi is all well and good. I'm bi myself. But there's a big difference between issues dealing with "who you go to bed with" and issues dealing with "who you go to bed as".