Need advice for a friend, quick! - Page 2

blue · 12-17-2003, 03:07 PM

Quote:

has boobs she flashes to the world?

Well now, that changes everything.

Lady Sidhe · 12-17-2003, 03:09 PM

I just think it's a shame. He wants her to get rid of all of her friends, but he won't give up this girl...these two used to be so good together....everyone was jealous of them. They were like two trippy peas in a far-out pod, to quote scooby-doo, but now he won't talk to her, doesn't seem to care about how she feels, and seems to have a double standard for their behavoir (for example, he says they don't have enough money for bills, yet he'll buy an $80 wireless keyboard and mouse, which he doesn't need, but when she buys a pack of cigarettes, she's "pissing away money." He just spent $50, AFTER telling her they were out of money, for two marathon LOTR movie tickets....he said it was for THEM, so they could do something together....but she ended up not being able to go because they couldn't get a babysitter....he went by himself, with a bunch of his friends, including two ex girlfriends, and left her behind at home....so much for it being for THEM, something they could do TOGETHER.) He hangs out with his friends at least twice a week, doesn't come home till one or two in the morning, but he begrudges her time with her friends....yet he never invites her anywhere.

They used to not be like that. They were always together, he was very affectionate with her and she with him...they were the perfect couple....then this girl came along....

Sidhe

SteveDallas · 12-17-2003, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
we all know how men love boobs...

I'm not gonna touch that.

Lady Sidhe · 12-17-2003, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveDallas

I'm not gonna touch that.

No pun intended, huh?

Sidhe

hot_pastrami · 12-17-2003, 03:29 PM

I think one thing than many people forget when they look at a situation like this is that every person, in his/her own mind, feels justified in their actions. Even when one is doing something they recognize as "wrong," they feel they are doing it in reaction to something which makes it justifiable. The feeling of guilt is what happens when one creates a delicate contruction of justifications which doesnt have the strength to hold itself up.

If you understand the motivation for behavior, it is a lot easier to address that behavior. One thing that happens a lot in relationships is a degrading cycle... some innocent action on one person's part hurts/depresses/angers the other party, so they becomes unhappy/distant/hostile, which breeds negative feelings in the first party, which breeds further negative feelings in the other... ad nauseum. Sometimes the cycle peters out and time heals the wounds, sometimes it cycles out of control and causes permanent damage, and sometimes one person has the insight and courage to step up and address the real problem. This usually starts when someone swallows their pride and offers an apology, and begins really talking about things.

So, what might justify this man's flirting? It might be that he feels (justifyably or otherwise) that his wife is taking him for granted, or that she is taking her problems out on him, or that her attentions are elsewhere, etc. Maybe her depression is making him unhappy, and so he blames her for the fact that he is finding no joy in life, and feels justified looking for it elsewhere. These sorts of things are likely culprits.

So, one possible solution is for her to deal with the depression. Therapy, medication, meditation, yoga... whatever it takes. If she becomes a happy person, she becomes a better mate. Next, she needs to pay him appropriate spousal attention... not just sex, but talking, spending time together, genuine compliments, and the big one... flirting. Yes, she can flirt with her husband! It is one of the most positive kinds of attention a person can receive, and if another woman offers this where the wife doesn't, he'll be drawn to that positive attention.

If that alone does not solve the problem, when the time is right, she should tell her husband, in a non-accusing fashion, that she is jealous of this other girl. Not "threatened," because that wrongly accuses him of being potentially unfaithful, which adds to his justifications pile. He needs to know that she wants that kind of attention, and the fact that he gives it to another woman, and not to her, is troubling, and makes her feel neglected. This will open a helpful dialog, or he will react angrily, meaning that the underlying problem hasn't been exposed yet. Sometimes it is the brutal fact that someone has fallen out of love, and feels trapped in an unrewarding relationship.

There is no universal solution, so milage will always vary.

I can somewhat agree with FnF's observations, but at the same time, if there was a guy who was taking my wife out to coffee, and I saw her hanging on his arm, I would NOT be cool with that. That crosses some boundaries in most healthy relationships.

FileNotFound · 12-17-2003, 03:35 PM

Please don't take offense at this, but reading your posts is hilarious. It really is.

The whole post reeks of trying to shift ALL the blame on the big breasted scanky hoe. (I for the record find big breasts repulsive.)

Sounds like an "Oh it was all peachy till SHE showed up."

It probably wasn't.
The whole time you act as if your friend behaved perfectly. I'm sorry but had I been in his position I'd have walked out the day my wife started spying on me and looking at my ICQ account.

First of all. Buying cigarettes IS pissing away money. The wireless keyboard is still there, cigarettes would've been gone.

Does your friend work? If not, she can respectably stfu. If she does work, she has every right to be pissed off about idiotic and uncooperative spending on the part of her husband. I don't buy anything over $100 without consulting with my gf.

LOTR - Not HIS fault that they couldn't get a babysitter. Lame that he went alone. Still not 100% his fault.

Oh and the operative part of "ex-girlfriend" is EX.

Just because he hit on a girl who said "Hell NO" does not AT ALL mean that he'll spread the legs of everything that says "Hell YES!". There's a certain degree of a challage to a girl who says "Hell No" but it seems more like another attempt at a crush from the past. It's very likley that he was just 'trying to get it out of his system'. As much as I love my gf I do find myself wondering what 'might have been' and often am curious to know what girls that I was fond of in the past 'really' thought of me.

Oh and "goes out twice a week"? Whoop die doo...
The whole " he begrudges her time with her friends" sounds more like:
Her: You go out so often!
Him: You spend plenty of time with your friends too!
Who's begrudging whom here? Both. Good.
It's not a double standart if both parties are being immature jerks about it.

You're not asking for help though. You came here to trash the guy. You make it sound like his suspicious insecure wife is an angel whom he so horribly mistreats.

Maybe they were always together in the past becasue he didn't have to deal with her being suspicious of him and depressed the whole time? Maybe he spends less time at home because when he is home he gets lectured about "HER". Maybe he hangs out with "HER" because she doesn't lecture him. Maybe your friend no longer is willing to hang from his arm because she's pissed at him for no good reason and thus he's not at all upset about HER hanging from his arm.

There is WAY more to this than you know and than your friend is willing to admit.

xoxoxoBruce · 12-17-2003, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Maybe they were always together in the past becasue he didn't have to deal with her being suspicious of him and depressed the whole time? Maybe he spends less time at home because when he is home he gets lectured about "HER". Maybe he hangs out with "HER" because she doesn't lecture him. Maybe your friend no longer is willing to hang from his arm because she's pissed at him for no good reason and thus he's not at all upset about HER hanging from his arm.

And maybe he want's to get away from the kid.

FileNotFound · 12-17-2003, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
And maybe he want's to get away from the kid.

Well that there is little help for. I doubt the kid did anything to piss the guy off on purpose.

I do not think that: "I just wanted to be away from the kid." is an acceptable excuse for a father - eventhough it did work fine for mine.

Lady Sidhe · 12-17-2003, 04:09 PM

You know, I really liked your advice. I can answer a few of the points in there as well, to perhaps give a fuller view of the picture. I've known this couple for going on 8 years or so, and I tend to hear it from both sides....so here goes:

Ok they HAVE talked about it. She told him how him hanging out with this girl made her feel...she found out about this girl when her friend borrowed her computer to check her email. Her husband started talking to her friend, and this girl came up. He said she was "eye candy" for one thing. Also, bear in mind that my friend supported her husband when he quit his job in anticipation of another job that never came through. He was out of work for a year, and they were scraping by. He stayed at home all day long, and didn't look for work, because as he put it, the jobs that were available were "beneath him" ....yet he didn't once help around the house. Then he started school and got a twenty hour a week job at the university. Half his pay goes to child support. When his wife was laid off and had trouble finding a job, he rode her about it like she was some kind of lazy slob..Now that she does have a job (and it's not high paying...even with a college degree, she had trouble finding one)he says she doesn't make enough....she works, keeps the house, does all the chores around the house, takes care of the child, takes care of the pets, does the shopping....all he does is go to school and work, and he picks their daughter up from the babysitter after work and keeps her for three hours until his wife gets home to watch her....he goes out with his friends but never invites her, yet expects her to get rid of her friends because he feels they aren't good enough.
They had the conversation about this girl, and he agreed to not hang out with her anymore. Then she finds out that he's inviting the girl for coffee, instead of his wife, and this girl is on his arm, where his wife should be. When she asked him about it, he said it had nothing to do with her. It has everything to do with her. She's his wife.

Seems to me that he's the one taking his WIFE for granted. I mean, he doesn't help her around the house at all, doesn't keep his promises to her. She adores this man, and she used to spoil him rotten, giving him backrubs, footrubs, making his favorite food, getting him little surprise presents. It was almost disgusting how much she loves him....but then he hit on her best friend, and she just withdrew in on herself after he blew her feelings off concerning that....Now don't get me wrong...she doesn't say that he's the only one at fault here. She knows how difficult her depression can be...but he knew she was on medication for depression when he met her, when he married her. She can't afford her meds right now (she's on 150mg of Zoloft a DAY, and that comes up to around $180 a month) but I also think that his thing with this other woman, the not helping her at all in daily life or around the house, the not being affectionate with her, and the criticism of her just adds to the depressive state she's in. Every time he's mean to her, or criticizes her, or she hears that he's spending time with this girl, or he blows off her feelings, she spirals further down. I'm watching it happen.

Babe, she DOES try to mitigate the depression...she meditates and writes poetry and draws....he's the one ignoring HER, though. She tries like hell to spend time with him. They go out for coffee every day...and I think that's why the coffee with the other girl hurt her so much...she considers doing coffee a "their thing," because that's what they used to do on dates: go have coffee and talk. She tries to flirt with him. I watch her do it...he's always too busy talking with other people on the computer or watching a movie or going out with his friends to respond.

She has talked to him. The first time, she told him how she feels that the attention he pays to this woman should be going to his wife. The time he spends with this woman should be spent with his wife...she basically told him that he was giving all of the good parts of himself to this woman, all of his "quality time" and leaving her with the mean, irritable parts of himself. She told him she missed him. And he told her he'd stop hanging around with this other girl. But he didn't. When she tried to talk to him about the coffee thing, he blew her off and said it had nothing to do with her.

>>I can somewhat agree with FnF's observations, but at the same time, if there was a guy who was taking my wife out to coffee, and I saw her hanging on his arm, I would NOT be cool with that. That crosses some boundaries in most healthy relationships.<<

That's exactly what she told him. She said that this girl had crossed the line when she put her hands on him. I think that the fact that she'd told him months before to tell that girl to keep her hands OFF, and then finds out that he's got her on his arm....that's inappropriate.

She also told her husband that if he didn't tell this girl to back off, that she would, and he said, "that's fine." Well, she did. She found out this girl's icq and sent her a message that said:

"As of now, you will cease all contact with my husband. Your behavior towards him is inappropriate. He is a married man. And keep your hands OFF."

I think the fact that this girl tried to hide her face when she saw my friend's best friend walking up indicates that she's got an ulterior motive towards my friend's husband. She spends all her time between classes with him, spends her lunch with him, goes to coffee with him, and hangs all over him. When she visits him at work, they're in a corner away from everyone else, and she's between him and anyone who wants to get to him. I mean, when his wife showed up to talk to him, she had to MAKE this girl give them privacy, and even then, after she left, the girl showed back up and wanted to know what they had talked about! Even if her husband is totally innocent as far as cheating, this girl is after him. Where he's wrong is this:

He blows off the fact that his association with this woman hurts his wife

He wants his wife to get rid of her friends, yet he doesn't offer to invite her anywhere, and he won't get rid of this woman...I mean, she's depressed, and he's not there for her, doesn't seem to care how she feels, yet he wants her to get rid of the only support network she has....

He should be trying to regain her trust after hitting on her best friend, not taking up with yet ANOTHER female...what freaks my friend out is the fact that this woman has red hair and big boobs, both of which her husband likes. The girl isn't even pretty (I've seen her), which adds insult to injury, but her husband tells everyone that he always ends up getting in trouble with redheads....I mean, what's my friend supposed to think?

She's tried talking to him. She's tried making deals with him...she's tried getting him to tell her how he's feeling....it's like he's being resistant and not wanting to let her in for some reason. She wants things to go back to the way they were, but every time they talk, and he makes promises to her, he breaks them.

He told her the first time that the reason he hung around this girl was because she wasn't stressful, (this was when my friend was going through a very deep period of depression...this was when he started ignoring her, and it just made her depression worse) So my friend made an effort to be more cheerful and fun to be around, even though it was difficult for her, being in the grip of a depressive episode. And she did improve. I saw it. Yet it made no difference. Instead of being there for her when she needed him, he spent his time with this girl. The thing is, he wants HER to change everything about herself, but he thinks that he can do no wrong. Rather than being supportive, he bails to some other girl, then when his wife finds out and gets more upset, he blames it on HER, saying that if she wasn't so stressed all the time, he wouldn't hang out with this girl...how much sense does that make? He avoids her because she's stressed, but she's stressed because he avoids her, spends time with other women, and leaves all the household, child, pet, etc. responsibility for her....Seems to me that if he would be good to her, she would be good to him. But she's not going to expend her energy when all he does is ignore her and never reciprocates. I mean, this woman never gets a break. She's always running, always cleaning, always working....and then she comes home just to be ignored.

God, just thinking about this makes me want to cry. For them both. For what they were, and could be again, if he would just accept his part in all this and stop blaming it all on her.

Sidhe

hot_pastrami · 12-17-2003, 04:34 PM

Oof... your post contains too many thoughts to effectively reply to it all. I'll just say a few things...

Everything is subjective. You are seeing most of this through your friend's eyes, an not her husband's. That doesn't mean you don't see what's happening, it just means that your perspective, like your friend's, is limited. For example, you say that your friend didn't nag her husband to get work when he was out of a job. Well, perhaps she asked him 1-2 times a day how the jubhunt was going... out of genuine curiosity, or just as conversation, trying to be supportive. But that kind of thing can be perceived as nagging, even if it's not intended to be... like asking someone on a diet how much weight they've lost so far. It frustrates the effort.

Just remember that you only see what you see. Your friend will leave out details that seem trivial to her, but they could be huge to the husband. Like, maybe she said something innocently, and obliviously, that cut him to the bone, and this is his inappropriate, immature, but self-justified way of getting back at her. No matter what you think, you do not have all of the key information. Nobody does, not even the wife or the husband. And that is probably a big part of the problem here.

I'll wrap up by egotistically quoting myself from another thread:

Quote:

Originally posted by hot_pastrami
The only soul I can speak for is myself, but here's my relationship philosophy, for what it's worth. And it's worked very well for me.

A relationship requires five things to survive:

1. Absolute love.
2. Absolute respect.
3. Absolute honesty.
4. Mutual ackowledgement that relationships require effort (and are worth the effort).
5. Both parties put their partner's feelings first.

If any one of these aspects is missing or incomplete, I know the relationship is doomed. Everything else is just details.

These five things ensure that the parties are compatible, and are both prepared to compromise at all times. If both people put their partner's feelings first, each will get what they want from the relationship without feeling they made any great sacrifice.

Hope that helps you to organize your thoughts on the matter. If not, sorry for wasting your time.

Lady Sidhe · 12-17-2003, 04:50 PM

>>Sounds like an "Oh it was all peachy till SHE showed up."

Actually, it kinda was. You don't understand. These people are two sides of the same coin....if she were a man, she'd be him, and vice-versa. They were best friends, and EVERYONE was jealous of them.

>>The whole time you act as if your friend behaved perfectly. I'm sorry but had I been in his position I'd have walked out the day my wife started spying on me and looking at my ICQ account.

She never claims that she has no fault in this. As a matter of fact, she makes a point of saying that she knows that her depression can be difficult to deal with, and always asks if we think she's overreacting. When he told her he wanted her to "lighten up" as he put it, she tried, and she did well covering up her depression and not exposing him to it, but it didn't seem to make a difference.

>>First of all. Buying cigarettes IS pissing away money. The wireless keyboard is still there, cigarettes would've been gone.

You sound exactly like him. But he knew she smoked when they got married, and it was never an issue. The point here is that he claims they're broke, but he always has enough money for his toys.

>>Does your friend work? If not, she can respectably stfu. If she does work, she has every right to be pissed off about idiotic and uncooperative spending on the part of her husband. I don't buy anything over $100 without consulting with my gf.

Yes, she works, and at a very stressful job that she hates. She took it because she had to take what she could get, and she's even looking for something better while she's at this job. Whereas her husband turned down work because it was "beneath him"--yes, he said that, to me, as a matter of fact-- while she was working in a dangerous job while PREGNANT (she worked until her ninth month, and he never lifted a finger to help her). Her husband doesn't make enough money for the bills, so she's responsible for most of them. They go in together on rent, but she usually pays the utilities. The only money she spends on herself is for cigarettes.

>>LOTR - Not HIS fault that they couldn't get a babysitter. Lame that he went alone. Still not 100% his fault.

The point there is that he said he spent money they didn't have so that they could do something TOGETHER. But it wasn't for THEM....it was for HIM. He could've given a shit less that she wasn't able to go. And he didn't say, "bring the baby, so we can do this together."

>>Just because he hit on a girl who said "Hell NO" does not AT ALL mean that he'll spread the legs of everything that says "Hell YES!". There's a certain degree of a challage to a girl who says "Hell No" but it seems more like another attempt at a crush from the past. It's very likley that he was just 'trying to get it out of his system'. As much as I love my gf I do find myself wondering what 'might have been' and often am curious to know what girls that I was fond of in the past 'really' thought of me.

Oh, come ON....if your wife hit on your best friend and tried to undress him after he'd told her "Not no, but HELL no" would you just blow it off? I mean, hitting on a stranger is bad enough, but hitting on your wife's best friend is a slap in the face, because there's no way in hell it isn't going to get back to her, and you know it. The point is that he didn't give a flying flock how it would affect his wife when it did, and he blew off her feelings when she confronted him about it. And his past proves that he WILL sleep with a woman if she offers.

>>Oh and "goes out twice a week"? Whoop die doo...
The whole " he begrudges her time with her friends" sounds more like:
Her: You go out so often!
Him: You spend plenty of time with your friends too!
Who's begrudging whom here? Both. Good.
It's not a double standart if both parties are being immature jerks about it.

He goes out twice a week and stays out till three in the morning. She sees her friends maybe once a month. Her best friend stays away because she doesn't want anything to do with the man who tried to take her clothes off, and the rest of them stay away because they don't want to cause her trouble, since he's a jerk when they're there. And she says absolutely nothing about him going out. She gives him a lot of freedom. All she asks is that if he's going to be gone when she gets home, to leave her a note so she'll know where he is and when he'll be home so she won't worry. He never does.

>>You're not asking for help though. You came here to trash the guy. You make it sound like his suspicious insecure wife is an angel whom he so horribly mistreats.

Let's look at the facts:

He hit on her best friend, tried to take her clothes off, then blew off the fact that his wife was hurt about it.

He hangs out with another girl, lets her hang all over him, while he ignores his wife and blows off her feelings about him spending time with another woman instead of her.

He spends money on whatever he wants, but begrudges her her only vice.

He makes promises he never keeps, like when he promised to help around the house when she got a job. Babe, that grass hasn't been mowed in six months. They could shoot wild kingdom in their front yard. He keeps saying he'll do it, but always finds an excuse not to.

Instead of being there for his wife, like she was for him when things went wrong in his life, he rolls his eyes when she tries to talk to him, ignores her when she wants to spend time with him, doesn't help her around the house, wants her to get rid of her friends, but doesn't give her anything as a replacement, like spending more time with her.

>>Maybe they were always together in the past becasue he didn't have to deal with her being suspicious of him and depressed the whole time? Maybe he spends less time at home because when he is home he gets lectured about "HER". Maybe he hangs out with "HER" because she doesn't lecture him. Maybe your friend no longer is willing to hang from his arm because she's pissed at him for no good reason and thus he's not at all upset about HER hanging from his arm.

She never had a reason to be suspicious until he hit on her best friend. She defended him against people who knew him a lot better than she did, and warned her about his habits...She doesn't lecture him. She tries to talk to him to find out why he's doing these things. And honey, my friend would LOVE to hang on his arm again...that's how they always used to walk...

I'm dead in the middle of this. I hear it from both of them. I'm friends with both of them. And let me tell you...she's not an angel, and doesn't claim to be. But she loves him with all her heart, and is trying her damndest to work this out. He isn't. He doesn't think he's wrong for his spending habits, hanging out with his friends while telling her to get rid of hers, and hitting on her best friend (he never apologized for that, never acknowledged that she had a right to be hurt over it. He doesn't think he was in the wrong for trying to take her best friend's clothes off), and hanging out with other women. He wants it all his way, and he told me straight out "she's going to have a hard time convincing me I need to change anything."

>>There is WAY more to this than you know and than your friend is willing to admit.

I'm merely relaying what I see and what I'm told (by both of them). The thing is, whenever she does something to please him, he always wants more. First, he wanted her to lighten up, so she did. Didn't do any good. She cut back on smoking so as not to spend more money, didn't do any good...he still spends money on toys. From what he said before he bought the LOTR tickets, they were out of money. Yet he spent $50 on MOVIE TICKETS, and while he was there, bought a LOTR flilm cell souvenir, which had to have cost $20 at the least. That's a useless item, and like all his other toys, he'll probably throw it in the storage room and forget he has it. I think he needs to take responsibility for HIS actions, and how they influence hers. Why should she be the one to make all the changes if he's not willing to compromise and make changes as well? I mean, if you're clinically depressed, do you think that being ignored, treated like a fool, criticized all the time and blown off is going to IMPROVE your condition? I think if he'd show that he loves her, rather than just saying it, it would go a long way in helping her to trust him again. Everything he does screams "I hold you in contempt"....and you're trying to blame it on HER??

Sidhe

hot_pastrami · 12-17-2003, 05:20 PM

If everything you're saying is true and for the most part impartial, then for whatever reason, this friend and her husband are on the road to Divorceville... and the husband has a lead foot.

Problems, like objects, have inertia. If the process of slowing down begins too late, the collision with the consequences is ineviable. When things reach a certain stage, which only your friend can identify-- and it may have already happened-- she'll need to start answering some very difficult questions. For instance, if the marraige will always be like it is now, would divorce actually be better?

My advice now, as others have suggested, is to be a good listener, and nothing more. Under any circumstances, don't try to steer her to any conclusions or actions, no matter how strongly you feel. These decisions are huge and life-altering, and no matter how close a friend she is, once it gets down to hard decision-making, outside advice is pollution. Listening good, talking bad.

Radar · 12-17-2003, 05:29 PM

I don't know why you made a pretext about asking for advice, when it's obvious you already take the woman's side. (typical for women).

I gave some sound and intelligent advice for someone who genuinely wanted advice, but it seems like all you've been doing is trying to convince us that a man who is concerned for his wife's health is wrong by having coffee with another person who happens to be a female. If my wife were ever to tell me who I would or wouldn't hang out with, she'd be my ex-wife very quickly. And if she actually was psycho enough to approach a friend of mine and act like an idiot (yes your "friend" acted like an idiot), she'd be out on her ass in a heartbeat.

If she doesn't trust him, she should leave. If she does, than act like a normal person and don't spaz out because he has coffee with someone. If he hit on someone in the past it doesn't matter. Maybe he was drunk? In the end it doesn't matter if he looks at the menu, or even smells the food as long as he doesn't order anything. Heck, he could even order it as long as he doesn't eat it.

Undertoad: I didn't cheat on my ex-wife either, but while we were separated she started sleeping with some other guy immediately (we were still married) and said it was "none of my business" when I asked why she didn't tell me about it. And after she cheated on me (if you have sex while you're still married it's cheating even if you're separated) she said, "You probably cheated anyway".

In the end we're both better off. She has a house, car, appliances, and other stuff I gave her and a new husband, and I am free of her. I'm also getting married to a much more beautiful, young, kind-hearted, trusting, and pleasant woman in less than 2 months. The planning is expensive and stressful, (Planning a wedding in Vietnam is difficult and isn't cheap) but I'm much happier and I'm pretty sure my ex-wife is happier too.

OnyxCougar · 12-17-2003, 07:20 PM

Wow. Alot of information. And a situation that can be fixed.

If what you say is really what is going on, then she needs to dump him, now.

He's crossed the line. If my husband ever allowed another woman to "hang on his arm" (and it wasn't a family member), then he has no respect for me.

Period.

If my husband EVER propositioned a woman, EVER... he has no respect for me. Whether he was "playing" or not. What kind of man propositions another woman? A single one.

Dump him, and dump him quick.

It is NEVER ok to "proposition" anyone when you are married. If you don't mean it, what kind of person does that make you? Either (a) you're "testing" the person your propositioning, which is bullshit or (b) you're deliberatly leading them on without intention to follow through.

Either way you're an asshole.

Oh yeah, I could go on for hours.

He's a creep. Whether he started that way or not is irrelevant. She needs to cut her losses and get with a man she can trust, cuz this relationship is over.

elSicomoro · 12-17-2003, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
My s2b-ex had a Radar-like attitude about cheating. I never cheated in 16 years. One week after she decided we were likely to get divorced, she was in the sack for three days straight, with some guy she just met, halfway across the country.

Dude, I offered to get you that hooker...

12-17-2003, 03:09 PM	#17
Lady Sidhe That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.... Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Hammond, La. Posts: 978	I just think it's a shame. He wants her to get rid of all of her friends, but he won't give up this girl...these two used to be so good together....everyone was jealous of them. They were like two trippy peas in a far-out pod, to quote scooby-doo, but now he won't talk to her, doesn't seem to care about how she feels, and seems to have a double standard for their behavoir (for example, he says they don't have enough money for bills, yet he'll buy an $80 wireless keyboard and mouse, which he doesn't need, but when she buys a pack of cigarettes, she's "pissing away money." He just spent $50, AFTER telling her they were out of money, for two marathon LOTR movie tickets....he said it was for THEM, so they could do something together....but she ended up not being able to go because they couldn't get a babysitter....he went by himself, with a bunch of his friends, including two ex girlfriends, and left her behind at home....so much for it being for THEM, something they could do TOGETHER.) He hangs out with his friends at least twice a week, doesn't come home till one or two in the morning, but he begrudges her time with her friends....yet he never invites her anywhere. They used to not be like that. They were always together, he was very affectionate with her and she with him...they were the perfect couple....then this girl came along.... Sidhe __________________ My free will...I never leave home without it. --House Someday I want to be rich. Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be. -Rita Rudner

12-17-2003, 03:29 PM	#20
hot_pastrami I am meaty Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 1,119	I think one thing than many people forget when they look at a situation like this is that every person, in his/her own mind, feels justified in their actions. Even when one is doing something they recognize as "wrong," they feel they are doing it in reaction to something which makes it justifiable. The feeling of guilt is what happens when one creates a delicate contruction of justifications which doesnt have the strength to hold itself up. If you understand the motivation for behavior, it is a lot easier to address that behavior. One thing that happens a lot in relationships is a degrading cycle... some innocent action on one person's part hurts/depresses/angers the other party, so they becomes unhappy/distant/hostile, which breeds negative feelings in the first party, which breeds further negative feelings in the other... ad nauseum. Sometimes the cycle peters out and time heals the wounds, sometimes it cycles out of control and causes permanent damage, and sometimes one person has the insight and courage to step up and address the real problem. This usually starts when someone swallows their pride and offers an apology, and begins really talking about things. So, what might justify this man's flirting? It might be that he feels (justifyably or otherwise) that his wife is taking him for granted, or that she is taking her problems out on him, or that her attentions are elsewhere, etc. Maybe her depression is making him unhappy, and so he blames her for the fact that he is finding no joy in life, and feels justified looking for it elsewhere. These sorts of things are likely culprits. So, one possible solution is for her to deal with the depression. Therapy, medication, meditation, yoga... whatever it takes. If she becomes a happy person, she becomes a better mate. Next, she needs to pay him appropriate spousal attention... not just sex, but talking, spending time together, genuine compliments, and the big one... flirting. Yes, she can flirt with her husband! It is one of the most positive kinds of attention a person can receive, and if another woman offers this where the wife doesn't, he'll be drawn to that positive attention. If that alone does not solve the problem, when the time is right, she should tell her husband, in a non-accusing fashion, that she is jealous of this other girl. Not "threatened," because that wrongly accuses him of being potentially unfaithful, which adds to his justifications pile. He needs to know that she wants that kind of attention, and the fact that he gives it to another woman, and not to her, is troubling, and makes her feel neglected. This will open a helpful dialog, or he will react angrily, meaning that the underlying problem hasn't been exposed yet. Sometimes it is the brutal fact that someone has fallen out of love, and feels trapped in an unrewarding relationship. There is no universal solution, so milage will always vary. I can somewhat agree with FnF's observations, but at the same time, if there was a guy who was taking my wife out to coffee, and I saw her hanging on his arm, I would NOT be cool with that. That crosses some boundaries in most healthy relationships. __________________ Hot Pastrami!

12-17-2003, 03:35 PM	#21
FileNotFound Intouch with his inner sheep rider. Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 603	Please don't take offense at this, but reading your posts is hilarious. It really is. The whole post reeks of trying to shift ALL the blame on the big breasted scanky hoe. (I for the record find big breasts repulsive.) Sounds like an "Oh it was all peachy till SHE showed up." It probably wasn't. The whole time you act as if your friend behaved perfectly. I'm sorry but had I been in his position I'd have walked out the day my wife started spying on me and looking at my ICQ account. First of all. Buying cigarettes IS pissing away money. The wireless keyboard is still there, cigarettes would've been gone. Does your friend work? If not, she can respectably stfu. If she does work, she has every right to be pissed off about idiotic and uncooperative spending on the part of her husband. I don't buy anything over $100 without consulting with my gf. LOTR - Not HIS fault that they couldn't get a babysitter. Lame that he went alone. Still not 100% his fault. Oh and the operative part of "ex-girlfriend" is EX. Just because he hit on a girl who said "Hell NO" does not AT ALL mean that he'll spread the legs of everything that says "Hell YES!". There's a certain degree of a challage to a girl who says "Hell No" but it seems more like another attempt at a crush from the past. It's very likley that he was just 'trying to get it out of his system'. As much as I love my gf I do find myself wondering what 'might have been' and often am curious to know what girls that I was fond of in the past 'really' thought of me. Oh and "goes out twice a week"? Whoop die doo... The whole " he begrudges her time with her friends" sounds more like: Her: You go out so often! Him: You spend plenty of time with your friends too! Who's begrudging whom here? Both. Good. It's not a double standart if both parties are being immature jerks about it. You're not asking for help though. You came here to trash the guy. You make it sound like his suspicious insecure wife is an angel whom he so horribly mistreats. Maybe they were always together in the past becasue he didn't have to deal with her being suspicious of him and depressed the whole time? Maybe he spends less time at home because when he is home he gets lectured about "HER". Maybe he hangs out with "HER" because she doesn't lecture him. Maybe your friend no longer is willing to hang from his arm because she's pissed at him for no good reason and thus he's not at all upset about HER hanging from his arm. There is WAY more to this than you know and than your friend is willing to admit. __________________ This is a rat. \|This is a hamster.\| This is a chipmunk.\| This is a Sheep Rider.

12-17-2003, 04:09 PM	#24
Lady Sidhe That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.... Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Hammond, La. Posts: 978	You know, I really liked your advice. I can answer a few of the points in there as well, to perhaps give a fuller view of the picture. I've known this couple for going on 8 years or so, and I tend to hear it from both sides....so here goes: Ok they HAVE talked about it. She told him how him hanging out with this girl made her feel...she found out about this girl when her friend borrowed her computer to check her email. Her husband started talking to her friend, and this girl came up. He said she was "eye candy" for one thing. Also, bear in mind that my friend supported her husband when he quit his job in anticipation of another job that never came through. He was out of work for a year, and they were scraping by. He stayed at home all day long, and didn't look for work, because as he put it, the jobs that were available were "beneath him" ....yet he didn't once help around the house. Then he started school and got a twenty hour a week job at the university. Half his pay goes to child support. When his wife was laid off and had trouble finding a job, he rode her about it like she was some kind of lazy slob..Now that she does have a job (and it's not high paying...even with a college degree, she had trouble finding one)he says she doesn't make enough....she works, keeps the house, does all the chores around the house, takes care of the child, takes care of the pets, does the shopping....all he does is go to school and work, and he picks their daughter up from the babysitter after work and keeps her for three hours until his wife gets home to watch her....he goes out with his friends but never invites her, yet expects her to get rid of her friends because he feels they aren't good enough. They had the conversation about this girl, and he agreed to not hang out with her anymore. Then she finds out that he's inviting the girl for coffee, instead of his wife, and this girl is on his arm, where his wife should be. When she asked him about it, he said it had nothing to do with her. It has everything to do with her. She's his wife. Seems to me that he's the one taking his WIFE for granted. I mean, he doesn't help her around the house at all, doesn't keep his promises to her. She adores this man, and she used to spoil him rotten, giving him backrubs, footrubs, making his favorite food, getting him little surprise presents. It was almost disgusting how much she loves him....but then he hit on her best friend, and she just withdrew in on herself after he blew her feelings off concerning that....Now don't get me wrong...she doesn't say that he's the only one at fault here. She knows how difficult her depression can be...but he knew she was on medication for depression when he met her, when he married her. She can't afford her meds right now (she's on 150mg of Zoloft a DAY, and that comes up to around $180 a month) but I also think that his thing with this other woman, the not helping her at all in daily life or around the house, the not being affectionate with her, and the criticism of her just adds to the depressive state she's in. Every time he's mean to her, or criticizes her, or she hears that he's spending time with this girl, or he blows off her feelings, she spirals further down. I'm watching it happen. Babe, she DOES try to mitigate the depression...she meditates and writes poetry and draws....he's the one ignoring HER, though. She tries like hell to spend time with him. They go out for coffee every day...and I think that's why the coffee with the other girl hurt her so much...she considers doing coffee a "their thing," because that's what they used to do on dates: go have coffee and talk. She tries to flirt with him. I watch her do it...he's always too busy talking with other people on the computer or watching a movie or going out with his friends to respond. She has talked to him. The first time, she told him how she feels that the attention he pays to this woman should be going to his wife. The time he spends with this woman should be spent with his wife...she basically told him that he was giving all of the good parts of himself to this woman, all of his "quality time" and leaving her with the mean, irritable parts of himself. She told him she missed him. And he told her he'd stop hanging around with this other girl. But he didn't. When she tried to talk to him about the coffee thing, he blew her off and said it had nothing to do with her. >>I can somewhat agree with FnF's observations, but at the same time, if there was a guy who was taking my wife out to coffee, and I saw her hanging on his arm, I would NOT be cool with that. That crosses some boundaries in most healthy relationships.<< That's exactly what she told him. She said that this girl had crossed the line when she put her hands on him. I think that the fact that she'd told him months before to tell that girl to keep her hands OFF, and then finds out that he's got her on his arm....that's inappropriate. She also told her husband that if he didn't tell this girl to back off, that she would, and he said, "that's fine." Well, she did. She found out this girl's icq and sent her a message that said: "As of now, you will cease all contact with my husband. Your behavior towards him is inappropriate. He is a married man. And keep your hands OFF." I think the fact that this girl tried to hide her face when she saw my friend's best friend walking up indicates that she's got an ulterior motive towards my friend's husband. She spends all her time between classes with him, spends her lunch with him, goes to coffee with him, and hangs all over him. When she visits him at work, they're in a corner away from everyone else, and she's between him and anyone who wants to get to him. I mean, when his wife showed up to talk to him, she had to MAKE this girl give them privacy, and even then, after she left, the girl showed back up and wanted to know what they had talked about! Even if her husband is totally innocent as far as cheating, this girl is after him. Where he's wrong is this: He blows off the fact that his association with this woman hurts his wife He wants his wife to get rid of her friends, yet he doesn't offer to invite her anywhere, and he won't get rid of this woman...I mean, she's depressed, and he's not there for her, doesn't seem to care how she feels, yet he wants her to get rid of the only support network she has.... He should be trying to regain her trust after hitting on her best friend, not taking up with yet ANOTHER female...what freaks my friend out is the fact that this woman has red hair and big boobs, both of which her husband likes. The girl isn't even pretty (I've seen her), which adds insult to injury, but her husband tells everyone that he always ends up getting in trouble with redheads....I mean, what's my friend supposed to think? She's tried talking to him. She's tried making deals with him...she's tried getting him to tell her how he's feeling....it's like he's being resistant and not wanting to let her in for some reason. She wants things to go back to the way they were, but every time they talk, and he makes promises to her, he breaks them. He told her the first time that the reason he hung around this girl was because she wasn't stressful, (this was when my friend was going through a very deep period of depression...this was when he started ignoring her, and it just made her depression worse) So my friend made an effort to be more cheerful and fun to be around, even though it was difficult for her, being in the grip of a depressive episode. And she did improve. I saw it. Yet it made no difference. Instead of being there for her when she needed him, he spent his time with this girl. The thing is, he wants HER to change everything about herself, but he thinks that he can do no wrong. Rather than being supportive, he bails to some other girl, then when his wife finds out and gets more upset, he blames it on HER, saying that if she wasn't so stressed all the time, he wouldn't hang out with this girl...how much sense does that make? He avoids her because she's stressed, but she's stressed because he avoids her, spends time with other women, and leaves all the household, child, pet, etc. responsibility for her....Seems to me that if he would be good to her, she would be good to him. But she's not going to expend her energy when all he does is ignore her and never reciprocates. I mean, this woman never gets a break. She's always running, always cleaning, always working....and then she comes home just to be ignored. God, just thinking about this makes me want to cry. For them both. For what they were, and could be again, if he would just accept his part in all this and stop blaming it all on her. Sidhe __________________ My free will...I never leave home without it. --House Someday I want to be rich. Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be. -Rita Rudner

12-17-2003, 04:50 PM	#26
Lady Sidhe That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.... Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Hammond, La. Posts: 978	>>Sounds like an "Oh it was all peachy till SHE showed up." Actually, it kinda was. You don't understand. These people are two sides of the same coin....if she were a man, she'd be him, and vice-versa. They were best friends, and EVERYONE was jealous of them. >>The whole time you act as if your friend behaved perfectly. I'm sorry but had I been in his position I'd have walked out the day my wife started spying on me and looking at my ICQ account. She never claims that she has no fault in this. As a matter of fact, she makes a point of saying that she knows that her depression can be difficult to deal with, and always asks if we think she's overreacting. When he told her he wanted her to "lighten up" as he put it, she tried, and she did well covering up her depression and not exposing him to it, but it didn't seem to make a difference. >>First of all. Buying cigarettes IS pissing away money. The wireless keyboard is still there, cigarettes would've been gone. You sound exactly like him. But he knew she smoked when they got married, and it was never an issue. The point here is that he claims they're broke, but he always has enough money for his toys. >>Does your friend work? If not, she can respectably stfu. If she does work, she has every right to be pissed off about idiotic and uncooperative spending on the part of her husband. I don't buy anything over $100 without consulting with my gf. Yes, she works, and at a very stressful job that she hates. She took it because she had to take what she could get, and she's even looking for something better while she's at this job. Whereas her husband turned down work because it was "beneath him"--yes, he said that, to me, as a matter of fact-- while she was working in a dangerous job while PREGNANT (she worked until her ninth month, and he never lifted a finger to help her). Her husband doesn't make enough money for the bills, so she's responsible for most of them. They go in together on rent, but she usually pays the utilities. The only money she spends on herself is for cigarettes. >>LOTR - Not HIS fault that they couldn't get a babysitter. Lame that he went alone. Still not 100% his fault. The point there is that he said he spent money they didn't have so that they could do something TOGETHER. But it wasn't for THEM....it was for HIM. He could've given a shit less that she wasn't able to go. And he didn't say, "bring the baby, so we can do this together." >>Just because he hit on a girl who said "Hell NO" does not AT ALL mean that he'll spread the legs of everything that says "Hell YES!". There's a certain degree of a challage to a girl who says "Hell No" but it seems more like another attempt at a crush from the past. It's very likley that he was just 'trying to get it out of his system'. As much as I love my gf I do find myself wondering what 'might have been' and often am curious to know what girls that I was fond of in the past 'really' thought of me. Oh, come ON....if your wife hit on your best friend and tried to undress him after he'd told her "Not no, but HELL no" would you just blow it off? I mean, hitting on a stranger is bad enough, but hitting on your wife's best friend is a slap in the face, because there's no way in hell it isn't going to get back to her, and you know it. The point is that he didn't give a flying flock how it would affect his wife when it did, and he blew off her feelings when she confronted him about it. And his past proves that he WILL sleep with a woman if she offers. >>Oh and "goes out twice a week"? Whoop die doo... The whole " he begrudges her time with her friends" sounds more like: Her: You go out so often! Him: You spend plenty of time with your friends too! Who's begrudging whom here? Both. Good. It's not a double standart if both parties are being immature jerks about it. He goes out twice a week and stays out till three in the morning. She sees her friends maybe once a month. Her best friend stays away because she doesn't want anything to do with the man who tried to take her clothes off, and the rest of them stay away because they don't want to cause her trouble, since he's a jerk when they're there. And she says absolutely nothing about him going out. She gives him a lot of freedom. All she asks is that if he's going to be gone when she gets home, to leave her a note so she'll know where he is and when he'll be home so she won't worry. He never does. >>You're not asking for help though. You came here to trash the guy. You make it sound like his suspicious insecure wife is an angel whom he so horribly mistreats. Let's look at the facts: He hit on her best friend, tried to take her clothes off, then blew off the fact that his wife was hurt about it. He hangs out with another girl, lets her hang all over him, while he ignores his wife and blows off her feelings about him spending time with another woman instead of her. He spends money on whatever he wants, but begrudges her her only vice. He makes promises he never keeps, like when he promised to help around the house when she got a job. Babe, that grass hasn't been mowed in six months. They could shoot wild kingdom in their front yard. He keeps saying he'll do it, but always finds an excuse not to. Instead of being there for his wife, like she was for him when things went wrong in his life, he rolls his eyes when she tries to talk to him, ignores her when she wants to spend time with him, doesn't help her around the house, wants her to get rid of her friends, but doesn't give her anything as a replacement, like spending more time with her. >>Maybe they were always together in the past becasue he didn't have to deal with her being suspicious of him and depressed the whole time? Maybe he spends less time at home because when he is home he gets lectured about "HER". Maybe he hangs out with "HER" because she doesn't lecture him. Maybe your friend no longer is willing to hang from his arm because she's pissed at him for no good reason and thus he's not at all upset about HER hanging from his arm. She never had a reason to be suspicious until he hit on her best friend. She defended him against people who knew him a lot better than she did, and warned her about his habits...She doesn't lecture him. She tries to talk to him to find out why he's doing these things. And honey, my friend would LOVE to hang on his arm again...that's how they always used to walk... I'm dead in the middle of this. I hear it from both of them. I'm friends with both of them. And let me tell you...she's not an angel, and doesn't claim to be. But she loves him with all her heart, and is trying her damndest to work this out. He isn't. He doesn't think he's wrong for his spending habits, hanging out with his friends while telling her to get rid of hers, and hitting on her best friend (he never apologized for that, never acknowledged that she had a right to be hurt over it. He doesn't think he was in the wrong for trying to take her best friend's clothes off), and hanging out with other women. He wants it all his way, and he told me straight out "she's going to have a hard time convincing me I need to change anything." >>There is WAY more to this than you know and than your friend is willing to admit. I'm merely relaying what I see and what I'm told (by both of them). The thing is, whenever she does something to please him, he always wants more. First, he wanted her to lighten up, so she did. Didn't do any good. She cut back on smoking so as not to spend more money, didn't do any good...he still spends money on toys. From what he said before he bought the LOTR tickets, they were out of money. Yet he spent $50 on MOVIE TICKETS, and while he was there, bought a LOTR flilm cell souvenir, which had to have cost $20 at the least. That's a useless item, and like all his other toys, he'll probably throw it in the storage room and forget he has it. I think he needs to take responsibility for HIS actions, and how they influence hers. Why should she be the one to make all the changes if he's not willing to compromise and make changes as well? I mean, if you're clinically depressed, do you think that being ignored, treated like a fool, criticized all the time and blown off is going to IMPROVE your condition? I think if he'd show that he loves her, rather than just saying it, it would go a long way in helping her to trust him again. Everything he does screams "I hold you in contempt"....and you're trying to blame it on HER?? Sidhe __________________ My free will...I never leave home without it. --House Someday I want to be rich. Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be. -Rita Rudner

12-17-2003, 05:20 PM	#27
hot_pastrami I am meaty Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 1,119	If everything you're saying is true and for the most part impartial, then for whatever reason, this friend and her husband are on the road to Divorceville... and the husband has a lead foot. Problems, like objects, have inertia. If the process of slowing down begins too late, the collision with the consequences is ineviable. When things reach a certain stage, which only your friend can identify-- and it may have already happened-- she'll need to start answering some very difficult questions. For instance, if the marraige will always be like it is now, would divorce actually be better? My advice now, as others have suggested, is to be a good listener, and nothing more. Under any circumstances, don't try to steer her to any conclusions or actions, no matter how strongly you feel. These decisions are huge and life-altering, and no matter how close a friend she is, once it gets down to hard decision-making, outside advice is pollution. Listening good, talking bad. __________________ Hot Pastrami!

12-17-2003, 05:29 PM	#28
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	I don't know why you made a pretext about asking for advice, when it's obvious you already take the woman's side. (typical for women). I gave some sound and intelligent advice for someone who genuinely wanted advice, but it seems like all you've been doing is trying to convince us that a man who is concerned for his wife's health is wrong by having coffee with another person who happens to be a female. If my wife were ever to tell me who I would or wouldn't hang out with, she'd be my ex-wife very quickly. And if she actually was psycho enough to approach a friend of mine and act like an idiot (yes your "friend" acted like an idiot), she'd be out on her ass in a heartbeat. If she doesn't trust him, she should leave. If she does, than act like a normal person and don't spaz out because he has coffee with someone. If he hit on someone in the past it doesn't matter. Maybe he was drunk? In the end it doesn't matter if he looks at the menu, or even smells the food as long as he doesn't order anything. Heck, he could even order it as long as he doesn't eat it. Undertoad: I didn't cheat on my ex-wife either, but while we were separated she started sleeping with some other guy immediately (we were still married) and said it was "none of my business" when I asked why she didn't tell me about it. And after she cheated on me (if you have sex while you're still married it's cheating even if you're separated) she said, "You probably cheated anyway". In the end we're both better off. She has a house, car, appliances, and other stuff I gave her and a new husband, and I am free of her. I'm also getting married to a much more beautiful, young, kind-hearted, trusting, and pleasant woman in less than 2 months. The planning is expensive and stressful, (Planning a wedding in Vietnam is difficult and isn't cheap) but I'm much happier and I'm pretty sure my ex-wife is happier too. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

12-17-2003, 07:20 PM	#29
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	Wow. Alot of information. And a situation that can be fixed. If what you say is really what is going on, then she needs to dump him, now. He's crossed the line. If my husband ever allowed another woman to "hang on his arm" (and it wasn't a family member), then he has no respect for me. Period. If my husband EVER propositioned a woman, EVER... he has no respect for me. Whether he was "playing" or not. What kind of man propositions another woman? A single one. Dump him, and dump him quick. It is NEVER ok to "proposition" anyone when you are married. If you don't mean it, what kind of person does that make you? Either (a) you're "testing" the person your propositioning, which is bullshit or (b) you're deliberatly leading them on without intention to follow through. Either way you're an asshole. Oh yeah, I could go on for hours. He's a creep. Whether he started that way or not is irrelevant. She needs to cut her losses and get with a man she can trust, cuz this relationship is over.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)