A Town Willing To Enforce The Law

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Ibram

I said english signs for simplicity, panligualism on demand for all other government functions.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

How many languages are going to be on those sign?

One?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Yeah you got me, HM. But you know as well as I do, that won't last.
To clarify, "that" refers to one language signs.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

It's not bigoted to make the country function like a country instead of like the ineffectual UN. Start thinking beyond a hypothetical situation, a classroom exercise in what would be desirable in a perfect world.

The UN should really work on creating a new language, and no, not Esperanto or whatever that was called. We need something simple that everyone can learn easily.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

I'd say two: English and Spanish. They're the most prevalent languages in our country right now.

Would that stand up to constitutional scrutiny?

My workplace has all the legally required signs in both English and Spanish. Its not that big of a deal. But, IRS forms? That'd be crazy! Think of the hell it would be if they had to put IRS information in Spanish-- oh, wait, here it is.

That's not right, shouldn't be a legal requirement. If a business wants to go to the trouble and expense as a business decision, fine. Go for it. If I don't want to pay for it I can take my business elsewhere.

If you fly into Hartsfield International Airport in Atlanta, you'll notice that the digital signs on the tram scroll through at least eight languages, including the ones you've listed as well as Japanese and Korean. This change, made during the 1996 Olympic games, probably isn't entirely needed, but is helpful to people navigating the airport. Another major international destination, Disney World, has a monorail that makes announcements in English and Spanish, as studies done by Disney show that guests to the park that speak other languages are highly likely to also speak English as a second language. Spanish was the only exception, statistically, so it made sense to provide two announcements. No chaos broke out from either of these changes.

Business decisions, fine.

Admittedly, I had trouble "inspection", but road signs in Mexico aren't that difficult for non-Spanish speakers. I probably wouldn't speed through the red octagon marked 'ALTO' so, somehow, I don't think most English road signs are much more difficult for Spanish speakers in the US.

I wasn't worried about traffic control signs, the international signs are pretty clear. I'm concerned with the signs like accident ahead, next gas 28 miles, and Slaussen cutoff. How about, " No stopping or standing 3 pm to 6:30 pm on weekdays, and Saturdays, during school year, except holidays." OK, that's not a real common sign, I admit.
But my problem is the people who think it's a yard sale sign and stop in the middle of the road to look around, get out a map, and/or argue about what it says. Two language signs have to be twice as big or reduce the lettering by half. That makes it more confusing, so they slow down more and make mistakes that can turn deadly when they realize it and try to recover with an outrageous maneuver. I've seen it too many times with just English signs and more so in Canada..... or maybe that was me?

Agreed -- we can't translate everything into every language in the world. Now, what happens in our future when a US city/county/state becomes so populated with Spanish speakers that English becomes the minority? (For some cities and counties, I'm sure this already applies.) Will your suggestions still follow and will the dual signs come down in favor of Spanish only instructions? How would you feel navigating without the aid of English signs in one of these cities/states? Luckily, you won't be forced to learn Spanish, but...

That wouldn't be a problem if they weren't doing what they are doing now, now would it? There is no reason for a kid born in this country not to read, write and speak English. Go ahead, ask about the ones that aren't, go ahead.

Whatever our governments do, I'm strongly suggesting no one remove the required sign that reads "Lavarse Las Manos!" from any of the restaurants I dine in.

No comprendi.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

The UN should really work on creating a new language, and no, not Esperanto or whatever that was called. We need something simple that everyone can learn easily.

The UN should move to Africa where I'm sure they would bring some improvement if they had to live and work there.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That's not right, shouldn't be a legal requirement. If a business wants to go to the trouble and expense as a business decision, fine. Go for it. If I don't want to pay for it I can take my business elsewhere.

The signs are government required and in some cases are produced by the government. "Wash your hands. Lavarse las manos." You'll see this one in any workplace that deals with food. Minimum wage and disability signs are all dual language. It is common sense to provide your taxpayers with information they can understand.

The forcing of private businesses to have signs in a specific language can get tricky. In Gwinnett County, GA, the issue came up some years ago because emergencies at some Asian businesses couldn't be responded to since emergency workers were unable to read the signs along crowded highways populated by international businesses and restaurants. The measure to have all private business signs have readable English as well as the Asian characters was defeated. You might not agree these businesses should be forced to have dual language signs, but there is a public safety factor involved.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

But my problem is the people who think it's a yard sale sign and stop in the middle of the road to look around, get out a map, and/or argue about what it says.

Confusing street signs for yard sale signs? Stopping in the middle of the road to argue? This sounds more like bad driving habits than anything language-related.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Two language signs have to be twice as big or reduce the lettering by half.

City/county/state/federal signs all have regulations on lettering size for visibility reasons, so this simply isn't an issue.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That makes it more confusing, so they slow down more and make mistakes that can turn deadly when they realize it and try to recover with an outrageous maneuver.

...so, you want to clear up confusion about what signs mean by making them unreadable by a significant percentage of the population? In many other countries, the signs are in two languages and I've not heard of any traffic issues related to that aspect. Important signs are usually simple, internationally understood symbols. Everything else, not a big deal.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

There is no reason for a kid born in this country not to read, write and speak English. Go ahead, ask about the ones that aren't, go ahead.

We're talking about Spanish speakers, right?

But, alright, I will ask about them. What of the children that grow up surrounded by families that don't speak English? What of the children that grow up in a community that doesn't speak English and interact with businesses that speak only Spanish? Have you ever sat in on an ESOL class and spoken with the kids that come out of it?

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No comprendi.

"No comprendo."

I understand the need for clear communication between people, but it can't be forced, especially in many communities across the country. Passing a law that makes English the standard language and removes Spanish from documents and signs is simply going to put people in the dark. You might think isolating groups of people like that would force them to learn English, but the effect is exactly the opposite.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

The signs are government required and in some cases are produced by the government. "Wash your hands. Lavarse las manos." You'll see this one in any workplace that deals with food. Minimum wage and disability signs are all dual language. It is common sense to provide your taxpayers with information they can understand.

Yeah, I noticed all the janitorial supplies are almost entirely in Spanish. If I checked them closely, I'm sure there would be a small panel in English. Six years ago it was exactly the opposite.

The forcing of private businesses to have signs in a specific language can get tricky. In Gwinnett County, GA, the issue came up some years ago because emergencies at some Asian businesses couldn't be responded to since emergency workers were unable to read the signs along crowded highways populated by international businesses and restaurants. The measure to have all private business signs have readable English as well as the Asian characters was defeated. You might not agree these businesses should be forced to have dual language signs, but there is a public safety factor involved.

Do they make them clearly number them? Most businesses I drive by, around here, I couldn't find the number without stopping. Must be hell for EMTs.

Confusing street signs for yard sale signs? Stopping in the middle of the road to argue? This sounds more like bad driving habits than anything language-related.

Around here and in New England, I've seen it too. Driving down the street the car in front of you stops dead because they've seen a yard/garage sale. Usually the passenger will then get out and bee-line for the sale then the driver looks for a place to park. Thats what I was referring to with the yard sale sign. My bad, I though that was universal.
But my point was when people get confused by signs the natural reaction is to slow down and sometimes full stop...right in the damn road. I've even seen a woman on the Cross-Bronx Expressway (I-95 near the George Washington Bridge) stop and when the horns started, she rolled her window down and waved me around her, while she looked at the map. Unusual? Yes, but an example how dangerous confused people can be.

City/county/state/federal signs all have regulations on lettering size for visibility reasons, so this simply isn't an issue.

Of course it's an issue. If they say x by y maximum, you have to squeeze twice the information on it. If they state the minimum lettering then the sign has to be twice as big, as do the supports. Bigger signs, less visibility if you have many in the same area. Some urban intersections can have dozens of official signs competing for your attention.

...so, you want to clear up confusion about what signs mean by making them unreadable by a significant percentage of the population?

No, I want to clear up the confusion by not issuing licenses to people that can't read the goddamn signs or rules.

In many other countries, the signs are in two languages and I've not heard of any traffic issues related to that aspect. Important signs are usually simple, internationally understood symbols. Everything else, not a big deal.

like in Paris where the cars are burning? Or Canada? Mexico has all the signs in English,too....right?

We're talking about Spanish speakers, right?

Only because they are the one making the demands. Every other ethnicity that came here learned English, because they wanted to be Americans.

But, alright, I will ask about them. What of the children that grow up surrounded by families that don't speak English? What of the children that grow up in a community that doesn't speak English and interact with businesses that speak only Spanish? Have you ever sat in on an ESOL class and spoken with the kids that come out of it?

If they were born and raised here and go to public schools here, English should not be a second language. That's what I was referring to in my last answer, they wanted to be Americans.

I refuse to believe they are coming into this country legally, at a rate they can't assimilate, but they don't want to. They want to recreate back home, right here. They don't want to be Americans. Why should they be catered to? No other group ever was, were they?

Of course it's not only a familiar surroundings, it makes it easier to hide illegals, Even employ them in the underground economy. I don't remember hearing about any other group coming here and taking down the flag at the post office to put up there own, either.

"No comprendo."

I understand the need for clear communication between people, but it can't be forced, especially in many communities across the country. Passing a law that makes English the standard language and removes Spanish from documents and signs is simply going to put people in the dark. You might think isolating groups of people like that would force them to learn English, but the effect is exactly the opposite.

What, they'll gather in enclaves, hoods, and only speak their own language? Do business, and interact with each other in Spanish? Create their own underground economy, hide and employ illegals? Run their flag up at the Post Office permanantly?
btw, I said nothing about passing a law making English the official language.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Instead of just putting them on a bus home, they are jailed. Prints, mugshots, indentity positively established, then sent home, which takes from a day to two weeks waiting in jail.

So how much does that cost us per person, $500?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by richlevy

So how much does that cost us per person, $500?

Does it matter if they are catching fugitives from justice and cutting the influx of illegals?
Especially considering the other expensive schemes that didn't work.

Yes it matters and is what we should be doing, enforcing the law.

[Toymented]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

The UN should really work on creating a new language, and no, not Esperanto or whatever that was called. We need something simple that everyone can learn easily.

'
Genesis 11:6 comes to mind.

Would there be a benefit? Even with all speaking the same technical language, do we really understand or care to understand one another?

[rigcranop]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

What I got out of it is that we should not force someone to learn English but we should also not go out of our way to accommodate them if they choose not too.

That is my view too so maybe I misread it to satisfy my bias.

I agree with you but he was unclear.

[rigcranop]

I'd say two: English and Spanish. They're the most prevalent languages in our country right now.

Is spanish a most prevalent language because of legal or illegal immigration? I don't know but it would be interesting to see some figures.

[rigcranop]

My point about about english in industry jobs was about safety issues and being able to communicate with other workers who do not speak english. In an emergency situation, they cannot be warned of a toxic spill, chemical fume release or some other situation that requires them to leave the area quickly. In the event of one of those situations, I won't hang around to get the idea across. I have no inclination to be a hero. And if serious injuries or deaths occur to the "refusers" that can impact MY employment.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by xoxoxobruce

No, I want to clear up the confusion by not issuing licenses to people that can't read the goddamn signs or rules.

I agree with this. Whether or not you can read or speak English doesn't bother me usually but once you get into a car you are putting everyone else in danger if you cannot read the signs. This doesn't mean to have to be fluent, just that you can read the signs (for example, having dead end on a stop sign and knowing that it says dead end).

Originally Posted by toymented

Would there be a benefit? Even with all speaking the same technical language, do we really understand or care to understand one another?

Yes, it would save over a million dollars (or billion, I forget which one) a year for the UN and it will make discussions a lot easier to understand and we won't misinterpret each other. It will make things go a lot smoother even if we choose not to look from their viewpoints.

The language would also be good for civilians too. I won't have to worry about learning a native language if I travel when I can just speak an international language. We are already connected as a planet, we should have an international language as well.