American Protestor killed in Gaza - Page 2

slang · 03-17-2003, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju
It's rather sad that it takes an American dying in this way for us to feel like it matters. I guess if a Palestinian dies in this way, who cares, right?

I can't believe that none of you assign any blame in this case to Israel. Or did I just misread you? Let's clarify: Do you think it's okay for Israel to just run over people with bulldozers? Are they justified? Does it make them evil?

I'd like to apologize in advance for my insensitivity and ignorance in this matter.

The God's honest truth is , I dont really give a fuck about Pals or Jews outside this country. ( Until and unless they disrupt my American lifestyle, then I want them *all* dead) Once any race or group is here in the US (legally), I pay attention. I may like them or not, that doesn't matter, they are Americans. There isn't one single minority I don't disagree strongly with on some point. There also isn't one single minority (group) that doesn't bring something here that I like or agree with.

Ok. So back to the question. Do you think it's okay for Israel to just run over people with bulldozers? I think that they have so many people that hated the Jews even *before* they even had Israel, that they cannot afford to be flexible. If they run some Pal or US girl down with a dozer the world hates them. If they wake up in the morning millions of people are going to hate them, so if I were them I'd say fuck it. This is the way it shall be through our might.

I have had the chance to talk to both Israelis and Palastinians in the US while they were working here. Again I say I really don't give a fuck but if I had to choose a side it would be the Israelis. They also make some of the finest battle proven rifles and pistols which earns them bonus points with me.

It's funny that these 2 seem to be able to get along here while working. Maybe we should just clear out Utah and bring them all here. The American way has a way of allowing people to work together so they can *all* afford good beer, cable TV, the new sexy cars, and a good college education for the kids.

03-18-2003, 05:40 AM

The question isn't really about Israel vs. Palestine or however you want to frame it. The question is, a girl not much older than myself got (what appears to be) knowingly run over by a bulldozer - twice - and killed.

Of course there is some danger to what she was doing (obviously, or she wouldn't have been killed). Normally, however, peaceful public protest is not dealt with via lethal force.

For those of you who were in your late teens or early twenties in 1970: how did you feel about Kent State?

How do you like the idea that you could be killed for a peaceful protest?

If this happened in the United States, everyone would throw a shit fit. Everyone would be up in arms, demanding that the person or persons responsible be brought to justice.

But it wouldn't happen here. At the very most, she would have been arrested for interfering with government business and forcibly removed from the premesis.

Nah. They ran her over with a fucking bulldozer.

Whether or not Israel has to be on the defensive most of the time is irrelevant. What happened was wrong. The person or persons responsible (it is standard Israeli practice to drive the bulldozer at least up to the protestors, sometimes swerving away at the last moment) need to be brought to justice, and the government has to issue something a little better than "the protestors were acting irresponsibly."

That won't happen because no one gives a shit.

Griff · 03-18-2003, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by slang
...Do you think it's okay for Israel to just run over people with bulldozers? I think that they have so many people that hated the Jews even *before* they even had Israel, that they cannot afford to be flexible. If they run some Pal or US girl down with a dozer the world hates them. If they wake up in the morning millions of people are going to hate them, so if I were them I'd say fuck it. This is the way it shall be through our might...

The thing is Israel didn't run anyone over oops Toad said that already. An individual human being drove the dozer. I'm sure it was an intense situation where bad decisions are made quickly but you can't just check your humanity when you punch the clock. The scarey part to me is that folks can get comfortable ordering, participating, and justifying acts like this in the name of security. This could be our future.

wolf · 03-18-2003, 08:10 AM

Is anybody else here thinking about that scene from Soylent Green?

And didn't the article indicate that she may have fallen down in front of the dozer? From the Fox News version:

"She fell in front of the machine, which ran over her and then backed up, witnesses said."

CNN's version:
"Other witnesses, however, reported that Corrie had scaled a pile of dirt but then lost her footing and fell backward behind it, out of sight of the bulldozer operator. The bulldozer continued moving forward, covering Corrie with dirt and then crushing her. "

The other witness version of the story indicates that the bulldozer operator knocked her down and THEN rolled over her. What is not clear is if the bulldozer driver had any awareness that she was in front of the damn thing. Visibility is quite limited on a big dozer.

03-18-2003, 08:14 AM

I'm sure he knew she was there. She was there for some three hours before and had previously been talking to the driver. Before it knocked her over, as it lifted her up, witnesses said it was very clear that she made eye contact with the driver.

The most consistent reports that I have read have her being scooped up by the bulldozer, being dumped on the ground and then being run over.

Elspode · 03-18-2003, 08:16 AM

The accident accounts would tend to reinforce my thinking that it was just plain stupid to be jerking off doing *anything* in that area. If you want to protest, protest from across the street where you stand a good chance of outrunning even a maniacal, homicidal bulldozer driver.

Screwing around in the vicinity of a multiton piece of earthmoving equipment is just tempting the laws of physics to prove themselves.

Undertoad · 03-18-2003, 08:33 AM

A similar event did happen in the US about a decade ago. A protester sat on train tracks in front of a train, I think an industrial train supporting a company building war stuff. And the guy refused to move. And trains can't just stop, which the guy probably didn't understand. So when the train did eventually reach the dude it just ran over his legs, cutting them off.

The progressive community was really pissed when the train driver sued the legless protester.

wolf · 03-18-2003, 08:35 AM

Ignorance of the laws of physics is no excuse.

Elspode · 03-18-2003, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
A similar event did happen in the US about a decade ago. A protester sat on train tracks in front of a train, I think an industrial train supporting a company building war stuff. And the guy refused to move.

Nuclear power plant protest, if memory serves.

Elspode · 03-18-2003, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wolf
Ignorance of the laws of physics is no excuse.

I don't think she was ignorant of the laws of physics, I think she simply flouted them and was duly ticketed.

In many cases, the penalty for violating the laws of physics is death, and there is no more dispassionate court than that of the universe.

Undertoad · 03-18-2003, 08:51 AM

Someone on LGF said:

Rage against the machine!

Rage 0
Machine 1

That may be a bit too cold even for my taste.

Undertoad · 03-18-2003, 09:38 AM

The other thing is that unfortunately you have to pretty much discount anything the witnesses say.

LGF points to this page with photos:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

The third photo on that page shows the woman shouting at a bulldozer with a megaphone. The shadows thrown by the dozer in question are from behind it. The shadow thrown by Ms. Corrie is three feet long and suggests a sun to her right, while her buddy throws no shadow at all.

Note how the dozers in images 4 and 5 are different ones, but placed so that you feel it's a "before" and "after".

I feel bad about a death, but bulldozers go 5 MPH. This woman wanted to die.

03-18-2003, 09:58 AM

No offense, but I don't think you're qualified to say whether or not she wanted to die.

I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that she wanted to stand her ground, ended up getting trapped under a bunch of shit and couldn't get away. Incidentally, I think that's far more likely.

It would be a little different if she jumped under the tracks or wheels and hadn't been there for three hours.

And I still don't see anything wrong with nonviolent protest.

Kev · 03-29-2003, 03:45 PM

<delurk>

This is a bit of a bugbear of mine; idiots who manage, by virtue of being stupid enough to get dead, to become martyrs of a sort.

As well as the "flouted the laws of physics and was duly ticketed" (kudos Elspode - VERY funny) guy, there were a bunch of Greenpeace people who handcuffed themselves to bits of an oil rig due to be sunk not so very long ago.

I'm all in favour, somewhere in my mind, of the right to protest - but I'm completely anti the right to impede me in my day-to-day "minding my own business" going about of life.

I used to have the [good~/mis~] fortune to live in London; my daily commute was a nightmare every time anyone decided they wanted to protest globalisation, taxation, traffic, oxygen, or any of the other myriad of things that they chose to parade up and down the road chanting about. A particular favourite was foreign residents coming over to protest (I couldn't give a damn what nationality they are - if they don't pay tax here, they shouldn't be entitled to get in the way of people who do).

This woman was very clearly in the way of the - very specific, individual - guy bulldozing, and had gone out of her way to be in. The guy bulldozing wasn't going out of his way to make her life difficult, in particular.

I have a great deal of difficulty reconciling my desire to simply run over the protesters currently marching around waving banners protesting the war in Iraq in the middle of the road, with my desire to let them use their democratic right to make themselves heard - I sure as hell wouldn't listen to 99.999999% of protests if they didn't force it upon me by standing right in my way.

Hypocrisy makes my head hurt.

Kev

PS - Hi, everyone!

warch · 03-29-2003, 10:55 PM

Sounds like today's protestors are as beloved as telemarketers or street mimes. Our defenses are up. As in all attempts at idea marketing, maybe these messagers need more creative campaigns. - remember the Columbian who buried himself?- that got me curious.

I dont like seeing anyone's skull crushed, regardless of ideology.
I respect nonviolent protest and think its an essential part of democracy.

Gandhi's tip was "to make the injustice visable" then you can touch the conscience- photograpy and the media are essential. It seems this protestor's images are not passive enough to touch us. Not like Tiananmin square or a monk on fire.

I met a guy recently who participated in the lunch counter sit-ins in the 60s. He talked about his training and the stress on nonviolent reaction.it was practiced. If one picture was snapped of a black student yelling, in anyway fighting back or even looking angry as they were being yelled at or beaten, the action would be ruined. Anyone looking at the image would feel they deserved it. And early on SNCC hired their own photographer Danny Lyon, to cover actions.

Dave, you mentioned Kent, I went there (80s) and remember going on the orientation tour. In our group were a few students from Asia. As the guide showed us around, noting the commons where the National Guard opened fire on the students killing 4 and wounding 9, not only those protesting, but those passing to class, I remember the foreign students' repectful but confused reaction. "So only 4 were killed?" Like "that's nothin'". That was an early lesson in relativism.

03-18-2003, 08:10 AM	#19
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Is anybody else here thinking about that scene from Soylent Green? And didn't the article indicate that she may have fallen down in front of the dozer? From the Fox News version: "She fell in front of the machine, which ran over her and then backed up, witnesses said." CNN's version: "Other witnesses, however, reported that Corrie had scaled a pile of dirt but then lost her footing and fell backward behind it, out of sight of the bulldozer operator. The bulldozer continued moving forward, covering Corrie with dirt and then crushing her. " The other witness version of the story indicates that the bulldozer operator knocked her down and THEN rolled over her. What is not clear is if the bulldozer driver had any awareness that she was in front of the damn thing. Visibility is quite limited on a big dozer. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

03-18-2003, 08:16 AM	#21
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	The accident accounts would tend to reinforce my thinking that it was just plain stupid to be jerking off doing anything in that area. If you want to protest, protest from across the street where you stand a good chance of outrunning even a maniacal, homicidal bulldozer driver. Screwing around in the vicinity of a multiton piece of earthmoving equipment is just tempting the laws of physics to prove themselves. __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

03-18-2003, 08:35 AM	#23
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Ignorance of the laws of physics is no excuse. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

03-18-2003, 05:40 AM	#17
dave Guest Posts: n/a	The question isn't really about Israel vs. Palestine or however you want to frame it. The question is, a girl not much older than myself got (what appears to be) knowingly run over by a bulldozer - twice - and killed. Of course there is some danger to what she was doing (obviously, or she wouldn't have been killed). Normally, however, peaceful public protest is not dealt with via lethal force. For those of you who were in your late teens or early twenties in 1970: how did you feel about Kent State? How do you like the idea that you could be killed for a peaceful protest? If this happened in the United States, everyone would throw a shit fit. Everyone would be up in arms, demanding that the person or persons responsible be brought to justice. But it wouldn't happen here. At the very most, she would have been arrested for interfering with government business and forcibly removed from the premesis. Nah. They ran her over with a fucking bulldozer. Whether or not Israel has to be on the defensive most of the time is irrelevant. What happened was wrong. The person or persons responsible (it is standard Israeli practice to drive the bulldozer at least up to the protestors, sometimes swerving away at the last moment) need to be brought to justice, and the government has to issue something a little better than "the protestors were acting irresponsibly." That won't happen because no one gives a shit.

03-18-2003, 08:14 AM	#20
dave Guest Posts: n/a	I'm sure he knew she was there. She was there for some three hours before and had previously been talking to the driver. Before it knocked her over, as it lifted her up, witnesses said it was very clear that she made eye contact with the driver. The most consistent reports that I have read have her being scooped up by the bulldozer, being dumped on the ground and then being run over.

03-18-2003, 08:33 AM	#22
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	A similar event did happen in the US about a decade ago. A protester sat on train tracks in front of a train, I think an industrial train supporting a company building war stuff. And the guy refused to move. And trains can't just stop, which the guy probably didn't understand. So when the train did eventually reach the dude it just ran over his legs, cutting them off. The progressive community was really pissed when the train driver sued the legless protester.

03-18-2003, 08:51 AM	#26
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Someone on LGF said: Rage against the machine! Rage 0 Machine 1 That may be a bit too cold even for my taste.

03-18-2003, 09:38 AM	#27
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	The other thing is that unfortunately you have to pretty much discount anything the witnesses say. LGF points to this page with photos: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml The third photo on that page shows the woman shouting at a bulldozer with a megaphone. The shadows thrown by the dozer in question are from behind it. The shadow thrown by Ms. Corrie is three feet long and suggests a sun to her right, while her buddy throws no shadow at all. Note how the dozers in images 4 and 5 are different ones, but placed so that you feel it's a "before" and "after". I feel bad about a death, but bulldozers go 5 MPH. This woman wanted to die.

03-18-2003, 09:58 AM	#28
dave Guest Posts: n/a	No offense, but I don't think you're qualified to say whether or not she wanted to die. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that she wanted to stand her ground, ended up getting trapped under a bunch of shit and couldn't get away. Incidentally, I think that's far more likely. It would be a little different if she jumped under the tracks or wheels and hadn't been there for three hours. And I still don't see anything wrong with nonviolent protest.

03-29-2003, 03:45 PM	#29
Kev Kinda New Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1	<delurk> This is a bit of a bugbear of mine; idiots who manage, by virtue of being stupid enough to get dead, to become martyrs of a sort. As well as the "flouted the laws of physics and was duly ticketed" (kudos Elspode - VERY funny) guy, there were a bunch of Greenpeace people who handcuffed themselves to bits of an oil rig due to be sunk not so very long ago. I'm all in favour, somewhere in my mind, of the right to protest - but I'm completely anti the right to impede me in my day-to-day "minding my own business" going about of life. I used to have the [good~/mis~] fortune to live in London; my daily commute was a nightmare every time anyone decided they wanted to protest globalisation, taxation, traffic, oxygen, or any of the other myriad of things that they chose to parade up and down the road chanting about. A particular favourite was foreign residents coming over to protest (I couldn't give a damn what nationality they are - if they don't pay tax here, they shouldn't be entitled to get in the way of people who do). This woman was very clearly in the way of the - very specific, individual - guy bulldozing, and had gone out of her way to be in. The guy bulldozing wasn't going out of his way to make her life difficult, in particular. I have a great deal of difficulty reconciling my desire to simply run over the protesters currently marching around waving banners protesting the war in Iraq in the middle of the road, with my desire to let them use their democratic right to make themselves heard - I sure as hell wouldn't listen to 99.999999% of protests if they didn't force it upon me by standing right in my way. Hypocrisy makes my head hurt. Kev PS - Hi, everyone!

03-29-2003, 10:55 PM	#30
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Sounds like today's protestors are as beloved as telemarketers or street mimes. Our defenses are up. As in all attempts at idea marketing, maybe these messagers need more creative campaigns. - remember the Columbian who buried himself?- that got me curious. I dont like seeing anyone's skull crushed, regardless of ideology. I respect nonviolent protest and think its an essential part of democracy. Gandhi's tip was "to make the injustice visable" then you can touch the conscience- photograpy and the media are essential. It seems this protestor's images are not passive enough to touch us. Not like Tiananmin square or a monk on fire. I met a guy recently who participated in the lunch counter sit-ins in the 60s. He talked about his training and the stress on nonviolent reaction.it was practiced. If one picture was snapped of a black student yelling, in anyway fighting back or even looking angry as they were being yelled at or beaten, the action would be ruined. Anyone looking at the image would feel they deserved it. And early on SNCC hired their own photographer Danny Lyon, to cover actions. Dave, you mentioned Kent, I went there (80s) and remember going on the orientation tour. In our group were a few students from Asia. As the guide showed us around, noting the commons where the National Guard opened fire on the students killing 4 and wounding 9, not only those protesting, but those passing to class, I remember the foreign students' repectful but confused reaction. "So only 4 were killed?" Like "that's nothin'". That was an early lesson in relativism.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)