Antisocial Personality Disorder - Page 7

9th Engineer · 07-13-2006, 02:04 PM

All I'm saying is that there's no reason to waste time and energy on something that isn't valuable. If happiness does not exist then there's no reason to pay attention to it. A good argument I've heard against teaching kids that we are glorified monkeys is that they will eventually make the inevitable connection, "Hey, if we're just animals then why care about them more than I would for a bird or rabbit?? 200 casualties in a firebombing? Big deal, they'll repopulate". If people are separate from animals then say so, if we arn't then stick to where that logic leads you.

07-13-2006, 02:06 PM

It's just a way of removing accountability for people who don't want to deal with it.

Ibby · 07-13-2006, 02:26 PM

I personally DO agree that humans and animals are equal, but I take the opposite approach... Humans shouldn't be treated badly, but neither should animials. Treat every creature as if it was your equal or your superior.

Flint · 07-13-2006, 02:26 PM

People are not seperate from the animals. Logic leads me there. And, it creates some interesting ethical questions and debates. But, at the first sign of trouble, I don't simply abandon logic and revert back to a state of superstition.

As individuals, we have to take responsibility for our actions because it is the right thing to do. There isn't anything coming down from above to force us into compliance - there is neither a bearded old man in the clouds, nor a biological imperative to control us into behaving correctly. We have to do that ourselves, to the best of our ability, with the tools we've been given. Being aware of what those tools are, and trying to understand them, doesn't automatically force us to a silly conclusion like "do whatever you want, it doesn't matter anyway." I don't think we should avoid clear thinking in favor of fear-based rhetoric.

9th Engineer · 07-13-2006, 02:35 PM

I was just bringing up the inconsistancy in punishments for killing animals and humans. We treat humans as more important than animals, I'm just saying we should look for the reason we do so.

Flint · 07-13-2006, 02:37 PM

@9th: ah-hah, I gotcha, I mis-read your post

Pangloss62 · 07-13-2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

nor a biological imperative to control us into behaving correctly.

I don't know about that. If you look at primate societies (and we are primates) the biological imperitive is to maintain relative stability within that society so it survives and reproduces offspring. This results in behaviors that produce stability and increase bonding (removing lice, defending the group against enemies, etc). Look to the primates to see ourselves on the rudimentary level. Basically, our brains are too big. This results in both the benefits and pitfalls of being human.

There could even be a biological imperitive for believing in a "god" or an afterlife. As an atheist, I always feel like a mutant anyway.

Happy Monkey · 07-13-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

I was just bringing up the inconsistancy in punishments for killing animals and humans. We treat humans as more important than animals, I'm just saying we should look for the reason we do so.

In evolutionary terms? The answer is obvious- we treat them as more important 'cause thay are us. The emotional mechanism is called empathy, and empathy is stronger for those who are more similar to us - it's easier to put ourselves in their shoes. Unfortunately, this can also result in the various bigotries, where it becomes difficult to empathise with humans who are different from oneself in various inconsequential ways.

07-13-2006, 07:40 PM

I gotta say that I think this entire argument got started as someone's way of wimping out on saying "I don't beleive in God or spirit or spirituality." That's fine if folks want to be atheists. More power to you, but the the whole "we are but sub atomic particles" argument sounds suspiciously like the inverse of the intelligent design b.s.

Why can't people just stand up and stay, "I don't beleive" or "I believe"? Why the hell does science always have to be dragged in as the handmaiden of someone's personal vendetta of belief or disbelief?

I was raised a Christian and trained as a scientist. For years, I was at best an agnostic. Then a bunch of stuff happened in my life which turned me into a skeptical believer in a Greater Intelligence. BFD. Its my trip, and I'm not going to apologize for what I have experienced and learned on both sides of the equation to anyone. Yeah, every being follows the natural laws of science in so far as we understand them at this point in time. You can bet that our understanding of science is going to change considerably in the next 1,000 years - should we live so long.

As a biologist, I give the human species another 500 years max before we go the way of the trilobite. That doesn't mean I believe we are mere subatomic robots. It means that I think we are a complex species which still must follow the laws of biology and ecology.

Next topic, please.

Flint · 07-13-2006, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

Again, this is directed entirely towards an imaginary position you have created in your own mind, which I have never stated. Please remember to read more carefully, and, when in doubt, just stick to taking things at face value, exactly as stated, without launching into a series of assumptions, and then coming back to me as if I have stated points which I, in fact, have never stated.

I don't have anything else to add to my original, basic, easy to understand point. Everything in the universe, including ourselves, must obey the laws of physics. There are no special exceptions. That is the entirity of my point - nothing more, nothing less.

Any conclusions or extrapolations based upon your understanding of this basic point are not my responsibility.

Happy Monkey · 07-13-2006, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marichiko

I gotta say that I think this entire argument got started as someone's way of wimping out on saying "I don't beleive in God or spirit or spirituality."

Wimping out? It was explicitly said in post #1. The discussion was over the implications of that.

Flint · 07-13-2006, 09:55 PM

I personally don't perceive a conflict between science and spirituality.

9th Engineer · 07-14-2006, 08:09 AM

Woah, explanation please Flint. You're one of the last people I would expect to say that.

Trilby · 07-14-2006, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marichiko

Then a bunch of stuff happened in my life which turned me into a skeptical believer in a Greater Intelligence.

You know what's weird? A bunch of stuff happened in my life that proved to me that there IS a Greater Intelligence. Bad stuff, too.

Undertoad · 07-14-2006, 09:49 AM

We can conclude from that:

A) There IS a God

B) He's a dick.

07-13-2006, 02:04 PM	#91
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	All I'm saying is that there's no reason to waste time and energy on something that isn't valuable. If happiness does not exist then there's no reason to pay attention to it. A good argument I've heard against teaching kids that we are glorified monkeys is that they will eventually make the inevitable connection, "Hey, if we're just animals then why care about them more than I would for a bird or rabbit?? 200 casualties in a firebombing? Big deal, they'll repopulate". If people are separate from animals then say so, if we arn't then stick to where that logic leads you. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

07-13-2006, 02:26 PM	#93
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	I personally DO agree that humans and animals are equal, but I take the opposite approach... Humans shouldn't be treated badly, but neither should animials. Treat every creature as if it was your equal or your superior. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

07-13-2006, 02:26 PM	#94
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	People are not seperate from the animals. Logic leads me there. And, it creates some interesting ethical questions and debates. But, at the first sign of trouble, I don't simply abandon logic and revert back to a state of superstition. As individuals, we have to take responsibility for our actions because it is the right thing to do. There isn't anything coming down from above to force us into compliance - there is neither a bearded old man in the clouds, nor a biological imperative to control us into behaving correctly. We have to do that ourselves, to the best of our ability, with the tools we've been given. Being aware of what those tools are, and trying to understand them, doesn't automatically force us to a silly conclusion like "do whatever you want, it doesn't matter anyway." I don't think we should avoid clear thinking in favor of fear-based rhetoric. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

07-13-2006, 02:35 PM	#95
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	I was just bringing up the inconsistancy in punishments for killing animals and humans. We treat humans as more important than animals, I'm just saying we should look for the reason we do so. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

07-13-2006, 02:37 PM	#96
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	@9th: ah-hah, I gotcha, I mis-read your post __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

07-13-2006, 02:06 PM	#92
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	It's just a way of removing accountability for people who don't want to deal with it.

07-13-2006, 07:40 PM	#99
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	I gotta say that I think this entire argument got started as someone's way of wimping out on saying "I don't beleive in God or spirit or spirituality." That's fine if folks want to be atheists. More power to you, but the the whole "we are but sub atomic particles" argument sounds suspiciously like the inverse of the intelligent design b.s. Why can't people just stand up and stay, "I don't beleive" or "I believe"? Why the hell does science always have to be dragged in as the handmaiden of someone's personal vendetta of belief or disbelief? I was raised a Christian and trained as a scientist. For years, I was at best an agnostic. Then a bunch of stuff happened in my life which turned me into a skeptical believer in a Greater Intelligence. BFD. Its my trip, and I'm not going to apologize for what I have experienced and learned on both sides of the equation to anyone. Yeah, every being follows the natural laws of science in so far as we understand them at this point in time. You can bet that our understanding of science is going to change considerably in the next 1,000 years - should we live so long. As a biologist, I give the human species another 500 years max before we go the way of the trilobite. That doesn't mean I believe we are mere subatomic robots. It means that I think we are a complex species which still must follow the laws of biology and ecology. Next topic, please.

07-13-2006, 09:55 PM	#102
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	I personally don't perceive a conflict between science and spirituality. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

07-14-2006, 08:09 AM	#103
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Woah, explanation please Flint. You're one of the last people I would expect to say that. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

07-14-2006, 09:49 AM	#105
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	We can conclude from that: A) There IS a God B) He's a dick.

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