Does Anyone feel like Bailing

[Undertoad]

Noticed in NYT story this morning saying it's the end of the line for SUVs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/24/bu...er=rss&emc=rss

More than 1,000 workers were laid off at the Moraine plant. Under terms of the U.A.W. contract for all its members, they and the workers in Janesville and Newark will collect unemployment checks and payments from G.M. that together equal about 80 percent of their take-home pay.

For a YEAR. What an amazing deal.

Of course, in a market, everything is connected. The other side here is that GM is motivated to close the plant *sooner*, so they don't have to pay for nothing for too long. With gas prices dropping like a rock, perhaps there is life for the line after all. But GM can't risk it.

There is always the other side to these deals. The union negotiates a higher salary and greater benefits. The company must then lay people off wholesale, when the tough times come, instead of keeping more people and saving money on salary and benefits.

Still, GM had their chance to build a car in a non-union state, from scratch, with non-union North American labor just like the Japanese companies... and they built Saturn. Were we supposed to be impressed?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

How did Iacocca turn Chrysler from record losses to repaying all bank loans (there were no government loans) in only four years? He started innovating immediately.

Actually, by the time Chrysler asked the government to insure those bank loans, they had already started innovating and were ready to go into production with the K car. Remember they showed one to Congress, to prove they had a viable business plan deserving of government support.
Quite unlike the asshats that appeared before Congress recently.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

For a YEAR. What an amazing deal.

That deal was negotiated when GM was bragging about the bazzillions of dollars they were making to the Wall Street analysts.

Of course, in a market, everything is connected. The other side here is that GM is motivated to close the plant *sooner*, so they don't have to pay for nothing for too long. With gas prices dropping like a rock, perhaps there is life for the line after all. But GM can't risk it.

It's a pretty safe bet that gas prices will rebound. I figure they will settle out around $3 a gallon.

There is always the other side to these deals. The union negotiates a higher salary and greater benefits. The company must then lay people off wholesale, when the tough times come, instead of keeping more people and saving money on salary and benefits.

Historically GM, and the rest, lay off/recall production line workers as needed. They have never shown any loyalty to their workers, which is why in good times the UAW has pushed for benefits like the "job bank" and sub-pay.

[caution, opinion ahead]
I think the UAW leadership is just as out of touch as the board of directors. They've seen many boom/bust cycles over the years and figure this is just another one, instead of realizing that the world and market are (have been) going through profound changes.

Probably it's that "just another one" mentality making the union leadership reticent to make any concessions, thinking the business will rebound and it would take years, if not decades, to regain those hard won benefits.

I applaud the UAW for the precedent setting strides they've made in workplace safety and a fair share of profits for the workers. I'm sure the non-union auto plants, as well as other industries, would not be as fair to their workers if it were not for that precedent.

But that said, I don't think the present leadership is doing the right thing. I fear the future without unions would lead to an even bigger have/havenot gap in this country. Rather than throwing out the baby with the bath water, I'd like to see more responsible leadership. The fly in the ointment is the union leadership is elected by the members, and voters being voters, as we've seen in politics, vote for the candidate promising the most.
[end opinion]

[classicman]

Originally Posted by tw

The numbers were provided many times previously including number of man-hours in each car. One is expected to read those posts and grasp those numbers.

How did Iacocca turn Chrysler from record losses to repaying all bank loans (there were no government loans) in only four years? He started innovating immediately. Those stories have also been posted numerous times repeatedly. Why did Chrysler have record profits in only four years? Innovation typically takes four to ten years to appear on a spread sheet. Rather obvious is when innovation started.

I read your posts, ya friggin scrooge! I just wanted to see the info in a nice pretty colored pie chart.

The second part of my post was regarding innovation and you seem to have given a very political answer.
So your answer to my original question regarding innovation is "NO. There is no point in innovating. They apparently don't have 4 to 10 years."

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

[explanation]

Unfortunately, the general public just gets the sound-bite that auto workers get 95% of their pay when they're laid off.

Originally Posted by classicman

I understand that Bruce, but that still doesn't explain the many benefits and very generous retirement packages that that negotiated.

Well, of course the explanation for one benefit doesn't explain all of the others. I would think that each one has its own explanation, many of which would be just as good.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Noticed in NYT story this morning saying it's the end of the line for SUVs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/24/bu...er=rss&emc=rss

For a YEAR. What an amazing deal.

Of course, in a market, everything is connected. The other side here is that GM is motivated to close the plant *sooner*, so they don't have to pay for nothing for too long. With gas prices dropping like a rock, perhaps there is life for the line after all. But GM can't risk it.

There is always the other side to these deals. The union negotiates a higher salary and greater benefits. The company must then lay people off wholesale, when the tough times come, instead of keeping more people and saving money on salary and benefits.

Still, GM had their chance to build a car in a non-union state, from scratch, with non-union North American labor just like the Japanese companies... and they built Saturn. Were we supposed to be impressed?

Chuh. I WORKED at that Moraine plant and I cannot think of a group of people more richly deserving of a plant closing than these fucks.

Go ahead and pitch your names at me----these people DESTROYED their plant. I saw it happen day by day. The union was invested in saving the jobs of your worst cow orker nightmare---is that what union dues are for? to save the scum of the earth? Coz that's what they did. Worst. People. Ever.

And beware, all of you. Lots of these displaced persons are heading for nursing school. Think things are bad in health care now? Just wait.

[Trilby]

PS---the workers at this particular GM plant are, of coursem predicting the end of the world as we know it because their plant is closing. Alarmist bullshit from folks who can't even fight their own traffic ticket.


We shall see.

[tw]

Originally Posted by classicman

So your answer to my original question regarding innovation is "NO. There is no point in innovating. They apparently don't have 4 to 10 years."

Obviously GM has 4 to 10 years if responsible management exists. 1979 Chrysler also did not have one year to survive. A claim shouted even louder when the government refused them any money. Chrysler had to get their loans from banks ... who were not then flush with hundred of $billions in free government money. Banks, in turn, demanded productive changes and a restructuring plan. Suddenly Chrysler no longer was leaching money everywhere.

Until Iacocca got there, bean counters were so dumb as to keep factories working. Chrysler even covered the entire Michigan State fairgrounds of thousands of cars sitting for so long that grass was growing inside on the carpet AND those unsold cars had started to rust. That was their plan because a bean counter's only solution is to throw money at it. Deja vue GM 2008. GM does not have four years as long as Wagoner remains throwing money at problems. GM easily has four years if GM starts now fixing themselves.

Obviously GM could easily survive with bank loans. Of course the banks already have hundreds of $billions that they should be loaning. But that means Wagoner would have to admit that GM products and manufacturing plants are in dismal shape. Better to beg to a mental midget who does not require any solutions (ie "Mission Accomplished", bin Laden, etc), and who believes "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter".

GM will burn through that government $billions in months and come begging again. How curious that Wagoner was only saying last summer that GM had plenty of reserves and would easily weather through this turmoil. So he did nothing. Suddenly the burn increased to $1billion per month. Then $2billion per month. And still he did nothing. Today he still has no restructuring plan because Wagoner says GM's only problem is the economic downturn - not bad GM products. Why then is GM on the verge of total bankruptcy? Because Wagoner still denies GM's problems. Only bankruptcy would get him off his ass and out the door.

Had Wagoner been honest (no Enron accounting), then GM had no profits in seven years. But Wagoner is educated just like George Jr. He is an MBA - well trained in the art of denial and saying the right things. Like "Mission Accomplished", Wagoner still has no plans and says his products are winning against imports. Only problem? GM loses money on every Chevy car such as the Chevy Cobalt. Their products are that crappy.

The only reason GM does not have another four years? Wagoner does nothing to save GM. His only solution is to throw more money at it. That is what MBA routinely do. That was Ross Perot's complaint. GM throws money like a grenade at problems. Wagoner still claims GM's only problem is directly traceable to the economy - not to GM products. And George Jr agrees - giving GM and Chrysler (a company owned by rich men who don't need the money) $18billion for free. As so again, all Americans will be screwed - especially GM employees.

[Trilby]

hey. tw. Ya know what unions do with problems? Throw money at them.


That's what unions routinely do.


Ya wanker.

[Trilby]

(a moment of silence while I weep for tw and his beloved gm employees)


tw is a shop rat.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by tw

Obviously GM has 4 to 10 years if responsible management exists.
Better to beg to a mental midget who does not require any solutions.

GM will burn through that government $billions in months and come begging again. How curious that Wagoner was only saying last summer that GM had plenty of reserves and would easily weather through this turmoil. So he did nothing.
Today he still has no restructuring plan because Wagoner says GM's only problem is the economic downturn - not bad GM products.
Wagoner still has no plans and says his products are winning against imports.
The only reason GM does not have another four years? Wagoner does nothing to save GM. As so again, all Americans will be screwed - especially GM employees.

Wow - after reading this you seem to be torn on whether or not they have time to implement your "innovation plan".

That was a very long post to address a simple yes/no question. I have to infer that you think they will not go bankrupt and therefore have the 4-10 years you are talking about to innovate.
On the other hand, you say tat as long as Wagoner is there they will not have that time unless we keep bailing them out.

We pretty much paid more for the damn company than they were worth. At this rate we should change the name to USA - Unites States Automotive or TFC - Taxpayer Funded Cars... The benefits for the union employees would then be altered to those of Gov't employees.

[tw]

Originally Posted by classicman

We pretty much paid more for the damn company than they were worth.

Rick Wagoner says GM's products are world class competitive. Anyone with minimal intelligence knows that is not true. Rick Wagoner says GMs only problem is the economy. So Rick Wagoner has no restructuring plans and it therefore given $10billion. GM is already making plans so that government can double down on a bad debt. Must be executed quickly because the White House will soon finally have someone with intelligence; not driven by blind loyality to a political agenda.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by tw

Must be executed quickly because the White House will soon finally have someone with intelligence; not driven by blind loyality to a political agenda.

What? We elected Perot? When did that happen?

[tw]

Originally Posted by classicman

What? We elected Perot? When did that happen?

Well, you're gettting better. Instead of just reading the 1st paragraph, now you are up to reading every fourth word. Progress has been made. You are now reading more that George Jr does.

[classicman]

I read the whole post, as always. The first 90% was just your same old regurgitated bullshit - no need to comment on it as I already read the Economist as well. I just don't see the point in paraphrasing it and acting as if they were my original thoughts.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Brianna

(a moment of silence while I weep for tw and his beloved gm employees)


tw is a shop rat.