What would Martin Niemoller think about Arizona?

[Sheldonrs]

Now that ALL Mexicans in AZ MUST carry their papers proving citizenship, because the police can stop ANYONE they "reasonably" suspect might be here illegally. Who decides what "reasonable" is?

Martin Niemoller
Communists, Socialists & Jews
Martin Niemoller was a decorated u-boat captain in the First World War but subsequently became a minister of religion and a relatively high profile opponent of the Nazis as they increasingly gained firm hold of the reins to power in Germany.

Niemoeller was active as a leader in a so-called Pastors' Emergency League and in a Synod that denounced the abuses of the dictatorship in the famous "Six Articles of Barmen." Such activities finally led to his arrest on 1 July 1937. When the subsequent court appearance was followed by his release with only a modest 'slap on the wrist' Hitler personally ordered his incarceration with the result that Niemoeller remained in concentration camp, including long periods of solitary confinement, until the end of the war.

Niemoller occasionally traveled internationally after the war and delivered many speeches and sermons in which he confessed of his own blindness and inaction in earlier years when the Nazi regime rounded up the communists, socialists, trade unionists, and, finally, the Jews.

In this regard he framed a now famous quotation that is often presented in a corrupted form. Niemoller himself however lived through the events associated with the Nazi seizure of absolute power and knew which groups had been persecuted by the Nazis and also knew the order in which those groups had come particularly under persecution.


First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.


Since preparing the above quotation we have received an e-mail from one of our German visitors who took the trouble to visit the Martin Niemoeller Foundation web site (www.martin-niemoeller-stiftung.de) to track down their version of the famous quotation. He has provided the following translation of the quotation available at the Martin Niemoeller Foundation web site:-
When the Nazis came for the communists, I said nothing; I was, of course, no communist.
When they locked up the Social Democrats, I said nothing; I was, of course, no Social Democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists, I said nothing; I was, of course, no trade unionist.
When they came for me, there was no one left who could protest.

[Shawnee123]

Now that ALL Mexicans in AZ MUST carry their papers proving citizenship, because the police can stop ANYONE they "reasonably" suspect might be here illegally. Who decides what "reasonable" is?

That's what I've been asking, and haven't heard any thoughts on the subject. Too tricky to respond to: would have to put down "We's AMERICANS" placards to thoroughly comtemplate and discuss that slippery slope. Could we leave the language as open-ended as possible, to allow police officers to use their own personal discretion in such matters? Yeah, that won't be a problem.

And, as I said initially, will we make them wear armbands?

[Nirvana]

Pure fascism . . .

[Happy Monkey]

This is something that Godwin's law (as popularly understood, not as originally phrased) does not apply to.

The governor said she had no idea what would constitute someone looking suspiciously illegal, but she wouldn't tolerate any profiling. And then signed it anyway.

So I guess she just needs to hire psychic cops!

[jinx]

So is being suspicious looking a primary offense? Does anyone know?

[Happy Monkey]

Yup.

[jinx]

Thank you! Do you have a link to anything that explains it further? The news stories are all very vague...

[Sheldonrs]

Originally Posted by jinx

Thank you! Do you have a link to anything that explains it further? The news stories are all very vague...

Phoenix, Arizona (CNN) -- Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer signed a bill Friday that requires police in her state to determine whether a person is in the United States legally, which critics say will foster racial profiling but supporters say will crack down on illegal immigration.

The bill requires immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there is reason to suspect that they're in the United States illegally. It also targets those who hire illegal immigrant day laborers or knowingly transport them.

The Republican governor also issued an executive order that requires additional training for local officers on how to implement the law without engaging in racial profiling or discrimination.

"This training will include what does and does not constitute reasonable suspicion that a person is not legally present in the United States," Brewer said after signing the bill.

"Racial profiling is illegal. It is illegal in America, and it's certainly illegal in Arizona," Brewer said.

The rules, to be established in by the Arizona Peace Officers Standards and Training Board, are due back to her in May. The law goes into effect 90 days after the close of the legislative session, which has not been determined.

What will Arizona's immigration law do?

Previously, officers could check someone's immigration status only if that person was suspected in another crime.

Brewer's executive order was in response to critics who argue that the new law will lead to racial profiling, saying that most police officers don't have enough training to look past race while investigating a person's legal status.

"As committed as I am to protecting our state from crime associated with illegal immigration, I am equally committed to holding law enforcement accountable should this stature ever be misused to violate an individual's rights," Brewer said.

She added that the law would probably be challenged in courts and that there are those outside Arizona who have an interest in seeing the state fail with the new measure.

"We cannot give them that chance. We must use this new tool wisely and fight for our safety with the honor Arizona deserves."

The bill is considered to be among the toughest immigration measures in the nation. Supporters say the measure is needed to fill a void left by the federal government's failure to enforce its immigration laws.

Read the full text of Arizona Senate Bill 1070 (PDF)



Video: Immigration law lead to profiling?

Video: Reaction to Arizona's immigration law

Video: Arizona governor signs immigration bill

Video: Obama: immigration bill 'misguided'
RELATED TOPICS
Immigration
Arizona
Barack Obama
Its leading sponsor, state Sen. Russell Pearce, said this week, "Illegal is not a race; it's a crime."

"We're going to take the handcuffs off of law enforcement. We're going to put them on the bad guy," said Pearce, a Republican.

Fellow Republican state Sen. Frank Antenori said the biggest reason he supported the bill was because a rancher in one of the counties he represents was murdered by someone who crossed the U.S. border with Mexico illegally. He said the person of interest in the killing had crossed the border numerous times and cited other similar violent crimes.

"The citizens of this state are tired of the catch and release that is going on by the federal government where they grab people, they process them, and they take them back and drop them on the other side of the border," Antenori said. "They just come back, and we have no border security down here."

After the signing, the Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police, which had opposed the measure, issued a statement saying, "law enforcement professionals in the State of Arizona will enforce the provisions of the new law to the best of their abilities."

The state's largest police union, the Arizona Police Association, is in favor of the law.

In the hours leading up to the bill's signing, about 2,000 people rallied at the Arizona capital, and President Barack Obama, in the nation's capital, called the legislation "misguided" but said the federal government must act on the immigration issue.

Read excerpts from remarks Friday by Obama and Brewer

"Our failure to act responsible at the federal level will only open the door to irresponsibility by others. That includes, for example, the recent efforts in Arizona, which threaten to undermine basic notions of fairness that we cherish as Americans, as well as the trust between police and their communities that is so crucial to keeping us safe," the president said at a naturalization ceremony for 24 members of the military.

Brewer's counterpart in neighboring New Mexico, Gov. Bill Richardson, called the new law "a terrible piece of legislation."

"It's against the democratic ideals of this country," he told CNN's "Situation Room." "It's a step backwards. It's impractical."

He said the law would not combat the problem of illegal immigration or take the place of comprehensive reform.

iReport: Share your thoughts on immigration policy

Latino members of Congress also slammed the bill.

"When you institutionalize a law like this one, you are targeting and discriminating at a wholesale level against a group of people," Rep. Raul Grijalva, D-Arizona, said Tuesday.

Grijalva closed his two district offices Friday when an unidentified caller threatened to blow up his Tucson office and kill his staff members. The caller also said he was going to be "exercising my civil liberties, and I'm shooting Mexicans at the border," according to Grijalva's district director, Ruben Reyes, who fielded one of the calls.

Grijalva and Rep. Luis Gutierrez, chairman of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Task Force on Immigration Reform, had called on Brewer to veto the measure.

Gutierrez is a leading supporter of a proposed overhaul of U.S. immigration laws and said the Arizona issue shows why an overhaul is necessary. He has urged Obama to "put his back into the push" and to let Arizona know that federal law trumps state legislation on immigration.

Challenges expected - Coverage from CNN affiliate KPHO

The Virginia-based Hispanic Leadership Fund also criticized the law, saying in a written statement, "Having to 'carry your papers' is a hallmark of authoritarian regimes -- not of the Constitutional Republic that our Founding Fathers wisely passed on to us. Arizonans and all Americans deserve an immigration system that works, not a draconian big government desecration of the Bill of Rights."

Brewer said that "decades of federal inaction and misguided policies" have created "a dangerous and unacceptable situation."

The governor said Arizona's law mirrors federal statutes on immigration enforcement, "despite the erroneous and misleading statements suggesting otherwise."

Asked what criteria will be used to establish reasonable suspicion of someone's legal status, Brewer said, "I don't know. I do not know what an illegal immigrant looks like."

However, she added, her executive order requires the Arizona Peace Officers Standards and Training Board to address the issue.

"I know that if AZPOST gets [itself] together, works on this law, puts down the description, that the law will be enforced civilly, fairly and without discriminatory points to it."

[JuancoRocks]

Originally Posted by jinx

Thank you! Do you have a link to anything that explains it further? The news stories are all very vague...

"A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS
35 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW
36 ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
37 1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.
38 2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.
39 3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL
40 IDENTIFICATION.
41 4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES
42 BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT
43 ISSUED IDENTIFICATION."


http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf

.

[Happy Monkey]

No, my understanding is from the radio, unfortunately.

[Cloud]

have no idea what your point is about this neemroller guy, but I suspect he'd think -- man, it's hot here!

[classicman]

Originally Posted by (CNN)

The bill requires immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there is reason to suspect that they're in the United States illegally. It also targets those who hire illegal immigrant day laborers or knowingly transport them.

Is this new? Why wouldn't they have to carry that with them all the time?

The Republican governor also issued an executive order that requires additional training for local officers on how to implement the law without engaging in racial profiling or discrimination.
"This training will include what does and does not constitute reasonable suspicion that a person is not legally present in the United States," Brewer said after signing the bill.

"Racial profiling is illegal. It is illegal in America, and it's certainly illegal in Arizona," Brewer said.

The rules, to be established in by the Arizona Peace Officers Standards and Training Board, are due back to her in May.

There is your answer.

"We're going to take the handcuffs off of law enforcement. We're going to put them on the bad guy," said Pearce, a Republican.

In the hours leading up to the bill's signing, about 2,000 people rallied at the Arizona capital.

Were they there legally or illegally.

Obama "Our failure to act responsible at the federal level..."

I agree with that - same as the last several administrations on this issue.

Brewer said that "decades of federal inaction and misguided policies" have created "a dangerous and unacceptable situation."

Yup

The governor said Arizona's law mirrors federal statutes on immigration enforcement, "despite the erroneous and misleading statements suggesting otherwise."

Is that true? Anyone have a link to what they are? Are they just not being enforced or???

[Pie]

Originally Posted by classicman

Is this new? Why wouldn't they have to carry that with them all the time?

I was a legal resident of the USA for 13 years before we became citizens. I did not have to 'carry papers'. In fact, I did not carry any form of identification.

I still go for walks around my neighborhood without identification. I have that right. However, in Arizona, I better not do that ever again.

This legislation makes me sick.

[lumberjim]

[classicman]

Belgium
Everyone above the age of 12 is issued an identity card and from the age of 15 carrying this card at all times is mandatory. For foreigners residing in Belgium similar cards are issued, although they may also carry a passport, a work permit or a (temporary) residence permit.
~~~
France
France has had a national ID card since 1940.
Today, the law mentions only that during a ID check performed by police one can prove his identity "by any means", the validity of which is left to the judgment of the law enforcement official. The decision to accept other documents, with or without the bearer's photograph, is left to the discretion of the law enforcement officer.
Random checks of passers-by ID by the French police are quite common
~~~
Germany
It is compulsory for all German citizens age 16 or older to possess either an identity card or a passport but not to carry one. While police officers and some other officials have a right to demand to see one of those documents, the law does not state that one is obliged to submit the document at that very moment. But as driver's licences are not legally accepted forms of identification in Germany, most persons actually carry their Personalausweis with them.
~~~
Greece
A compulsory, universal ID system based on personal ID cards has been in place in Greece since World War II.
Since 2005, the procedure to issue an ID card has been automated and now all citizens over 12 years of age must have an ID card, which is issued within one work day. Prior to that date, the age of compulsory issue was at 14 and the whole procedure could last several months.
~~~
Italy
Citizens are not required by law to carry the ID card with them at all times, but since it is instead mandatory for a citizen to have his ID card when outside his comune of residence and since a citizen is required to promptly show the ID card to the authorities upon request or face possible retention for identification, Italian citizens are de facto required to have the Identity Card or another ID with them at all times.
~~~
China
The People's Republic of China requires every citizen above the age of 16 to carry an identity card.
~~~
Costa Rica
Every Costa Rican citizen must carry an identity card after turning 18.
~~~
Chile
Every Costa Rican citizen must carry an identity card after turning 18.

and on and on...
Link