Kyoto Treaty

[yesman065]

On bikes built for two?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Beestie

It has everything to do with what others are doing. If our costs increase (as a result of stricter enforcement/higher standards) and their's don't then demand for our goods and services decline and jobs disappear, wages drop, etc.

You have posted classic MBA reasoning. Why do you not ride in a Pinto? Because with innovation, costs decrease. Why did car prices decrease? People who just assume - who said increased pollution control means increased costs. They lied the exact same way as Beestie does now. Things that reduce pollution also meant higher gas mileage. That means less cost. But those who only know using a political ideology automatically know innovations will only increase costs.

Where does the designer reside on a spread sheet? Not in the column called assets. He resides in the column called expenses. That is the attitude of those who just know - don't first learn facts. Beestie automatically knows solution to global warming will only increase costs. So why does the basic car not cost $40,000 as predicted by those who opposed air pollution reduction?

Beestie automatically knows innovation will only increase costs - cause job losses. That was the same mentality at Xerox when technology such as SDS was stifled - because it increased costs by complicating technology. Today that concept in SDS is in all computers - as Xerox destroyed jobs because it feared innovation. Beestie - you are posting exactly like those who fear rather than innovate. You post with the philosophy taught in business schools where the advancement of mankind is irrelevant.

Beestie – learn from history. Don’t post anti-American rhetoric. As environmental problems were addressed, then costs decreased and jobs increased. Where Americans denied the damagers of pollution, then costs increased You are posting the lies of those who use poltics rather than logic and the lessons of history. You are making blanket assumptions and declaring your speculations as fact. Reality is that much of the solutions to global warming also mean better lifestyles and more jobs. You don’t believe this. Then post technical details rather than wacko extremist speculations. Where are your numbers that costs would increase?

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by tw

Where are your numbers that costs would increase?

I think you guys are talking about 2 different numbers.
Short term - costs increase due to additional components, retooling factories. . . production changes and so on.
Long term costs SHOULD decrease. You gave some examples there are others as well.
In this case Beestie is talking about us having regulations and "them" not. Thats may or may not change things - there are a lot of variables to address.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by tw

They lied the exact same way as Beestie does now.

Your logic only works if all parties are subject to the same set of regulations. If a Chinese company can just dump their untreated toxic waste into the Yellow River and eject their untreated fumes straight into the sky and make their employees work 10 hours a day with no benefits, no breaks for $1.50 per hour but I have to sanitize what I put into the river and clean what I put into the sky and pay a decent wage with benefits and not work my employees to death than who do you think is going to have the lower price and, therefore, all of the business? And if they price me out of the market, then they experience job growth and I don't.

My problem with Kyoto is pretty much that.

But incompetent government bureaucrats who have job security for life, are accountable to no one, who have never agonized about losing business to foreign competitors unencumbered by meddlesome government regulations and union constraints have the nerve to portray me as a liar because I'm not trying hard enough to "innovate" my way out of being hogtied by the unfair treaties and senseless mountain of regulations they never grow weary of saddling me with.

That cracking sound you hear are the shattered spines of thousands upon thousands of small American businesses for whom "long-term" is 90 days. GM has pockets deep enough to solve all the problems the government creates for it. But what about the other 150,000 businesses who aren't in the Fortune 100?

Don't sign a treaty that gives away the farm, the horses, the plow and the axe then tell me to eat cake. Get a real job. Run a real business. Climb down out of your ivory tower and come down here in the fields and trenches and do what I do better than I do it.

Then you can call me a liar.

[Irie]

Beestie, it sounds like your complaints are with the nature of economics, which is a very viable argument. The Kyoto Treaty however, in my opinion, shouldn't be held back because it may be bad for our economics. Our economic system, hell the whole industrialized world's economics, is a complete mess and will never find a balance. If the Kyoto Treaty is signed and adhered to by even just the U.S. we would help start the trend towards helping the planet, and we would have to mess with our economic system like we always do. Regardless, the U.S. would continue outsourcing/importing everything (also known as giving away the farm, etc).

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by Beestie

But incompetent government bureaucrats who have job security for life, are accountable to no one, have never agonized about losing business to foreign competitors unencumbered by meddlesome government regulations and union constraints have the nerve to portray me as a liar because I'm not trying hard enough to "innovate" my way out of being hogtied by the unfair treaties and senseless mountain of regulations they never grow weary of saddling me with.

Don't sign a treaty that gives away the farm, the horses, the plow and the axe then tell me to eat cake. Get a real job. Run a real business. Climb down out of your ivory tower and come down here in the fields and trenches and do what I do better than I do it.

Then you can call me a liar.

I'm with you on this one - well said. lt sucks, but its true!

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

OK, but if we hadn't spread out, where would we put 300 million people?

On top of each other... Ask Japan. They've got 40% of our population and 4% of our land.

[Ronald Cherrycoke]

Originally Posted by Phil

given that we're all experiencing weird weather

http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=13023&page=3

and other strange phenomena, isnt it about time America signed up to the treaty and big industries took action, to set an example to the public to do their part?

do you do your part?

I believe much of that is dependent on that big yellow thing that rises every morning and natural cycles. I remember in the 70`s we were told were going through"Global Cooling".

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

On top of each other... Ask Japan. They've got 40% of our population and 4% of our land.

I don't want to live like they do.... ever.

[Ronald Cherrycoke]

Friday, February 13, 1998 Published at 19:25 GMT



Sci/Tech

Scientists blame sun for global warming


The Sun is more active than it has ever been in the last 300 years

Climate changes such as global warming may be due to changes in the sun rather than to the release of greenhouse gases on Earth.

Climatologists and astronomers speaking at the American Association for the Advancement of Science meeting in Philadelphia say the present warming may be unusual - but a mini ice age could soon follow.

The sun provides all the energy that drives our climate, but it is not the constant star it might seem.

Careful studies over the last 20 years show that its overall brightness and energy output increases slightly as sunspot activity rises to the peak of its 11-year cycle.

And individual cycles can be more or less active.

The sun is currently at its most active for 300 years.

That, say scientists in Philadelphia, could be a more significant cause of global warming than the emissions of greenhouse gases that are most often blamed.

The researchers point out that much of the half-a-degree rise in global temperature over the last 120 years occurred before 1940 - earlier than the biggest rise in greenhouse gas emissions.


Ancient trees reveal most warm spells are caused by the sun
Using ancient tree rings, they show that 17 out of 19 warm spells in the last 10,000 years coincided with peaks in solar activity.

They have also studied other sun-like stars and found that they spend significant periods without sunspots at all, so perhaps cool spells should be feared more than global warming.

The scientists do not pretend they can explain everything, nor do they say that attempts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions should be abandoned. But they do feel that understanding of our nearest star must be increased if the climate is to be understood.



BBC

[piercehawkeye45]

One, it is a combination of all the effects. Two, that doesn't mean that greenhouse gases don't hurt us. If they are predicting a mini ice age the global dimming will only make it worse. I would rather live in a hot world than a cold one.

[Ronald Cherrycoke]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

One, it is a combination of all the effects. Two, that doesn't mean that greenhouse gases don't hurt us. If they are predicting a mini ice age the global dimming will only make it worse. I would rather live in a hot world than a cold one.

Mostly it means the scientist have little idea about what exactly is causing the warming...but scare tactics produce grants...grants=money...it`s self propagating.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

And was or was not the language of the Kyoto Protocol written fairly explicitly as a sandbagging of the West, by exempting the smokestackey-stage Indian and Chinese economies from its provisions?

Bullshit; and bullshit makes methane, 23 times the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide is.

Even Bill Clinton, not a dab hand at discerning the Republic's best interest nor at foreign policy in general, couldn't swallow this ripoff.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Your logic only works if all parties are subject to the same set of regulations. If a Chinese company can just dump their untreated toxic waste into the Yellow River and eject their untreated fumes straight into the sky and make their employees work 10 hours a day with no benefits, no breaks for $1.50 per hour but I have to sanitize what I put into the river and clean what I put into the sky and pay a decent wage with benefits and not work my employees to death than who do you think is going to have the lower price and, therefore, all of the business? And if they price me out of the market, then they experience job growth and I don't.

My problem with Kyoto is pretty much that.

If your reasonings were correct, then Americans in 1980 were massively unemployed because American vehicles and industries had to meet 1970 pollution control. Industries that innovated (ie oil companies) ended up selling their American innovation all over the world - more jobs. Companies that fought such innovations ended up firing American workers and running to government for protection as those same technologies appeared in superior Japanese and European products. Why does Ford now have to license technology from Toyota?

Are we now poorer because the Cuyahoga River no longer catches fire? Are we poorer because NYC no longer dumps their garbage and sewage raw in the Atlantic Ocean? Of course not. When Americans innovated to meet those 1970 pollution control requirements, then more jobs resulted. Solutions even created increased productivity. Like it or not, that is the reality of history. Yes, some jobs were lost. But then computers also put thousands of accountants and factory workers out of work. Should we stop innovation because jobs are lost?

Agreed that government should not have to force innovation. But then car companies would not even install seat belts or safety glass until forced to by government regulation. Clearly since other nations did not require that, then other nations had more jobs? Nonsense. Telcos would not provide DSL until forced to by government regulation. Clearly we are all poorer because government mandated innovation? Oil companies would not remove lead from gasoline until forced to by regulation. For every case where jobs were lost are just as many cases were more jobs were created. Meanwhile standards of living increased.

Are you telling us we would all be wealthier and healthier if government did not remove lead from gas or stop widespread air pollution? Are you saying we would all be drinking clean water if use and disposal of trichloralethylene had not been banned by government regulation? Do you know how we once cleaned PC boards? Freely usage of ozone depleting solvents. What resulted? PC boards now constructed using materials that reduced costs; electronic boards cleaned in a dishwasher (an eye opener among those who fear wet electronics).

Europeans will now ban lead in all electronics. Therefore Europeans will lose electronics markets due to higher costs? No. That technology is all but being imposed even upon Americans. Clearly Europeans are losing jobs because government requires no more lead? Only where American solutions to lead free are better. Americans were required to install GFCIs in all homes. Does that mean jobs lost? Of course not. GFCI technology was then exported to other nations - more wealth from new markets.

History demonstrates there is little relationship between job losses and environmental regulations. When jobs are lost, well, the environmental threat did not exist. But global warming and its negative consequences do exist. Those who do address the problem will own the technologies and industries that will be necessary. Furthermore, we know from history that a vast number of these solutions mean less manufacturing costs.

Why should the Chinese change? Their realized gains in 8% growth are countered by unrealized losses estimated as high as 15% annually. Clearly they have a better and wealthier future? That is what was assumed despite the numbers. Ignored is that China will have to buy equipment from those who innovated - whose designs and machines both pollute less and therefore often cost less. IOW China will remain poorer because they remain in denial - viewing only realized profits rather than all profits.

Americans have numerous safety equipment, material handling equipment, etc in semiconductor fabs. Taiwan manufacturers may literally handle hazardous materials by hand. So who has the more profitable semiconductor fabs? Well, the Taiwanese do get low margin and less sophisticated products. In one case, a complete and new fab literally burned to the ground. How do they remain competitive? Cost control. Pay employees less, lower standards of living, etc. According to principles expressed by Beestie, Taiwanese should have cornered the market on semiconductor manufacturing. They don't. Even with safety standards that are (relatively) almost non-existent, Taiwanese do not own this industry. Therefore they must cut costs elsewhere. How can this be? It is not obvious if using blanket assumptions. But Taiwanese can only complete by reaping less profits and a lower standards of living.

Nations that addressed ozone depletion, acid rain, air pollution, etc all ended up with more jobs, new products, and increased exports to those who remained in denial. Why is German equipment now so necessary in American coal plants? Because Americans refused to address environmental problems created by coal plants. Did the Germans have higher costs and fewer jobs? No. Richer Germans addressed environmental those problems. Germans imposed regulations not required anywhere else. Therefore German innovation resulted in international sales, better standard of living, and more jobs in new industries.

Beestie's logic is predicated on same myths that called computers bad only because computers destroyed factory and accounting jobs. Nations that create global warming solutions will be wealthier - have more productive jobs - as history has repeatedly demonstrated. Those solutions will be required everywhere. Who will have those jobs? Same reasons to deny air pollution in late 1960s are the exact same arguments to deny global warming solutions.

[Hippikos]

Nations that addressed ozone depletion, acid rain, air pollution

Yeah, whatever happend with the ACID RAIN? Such a big enviromental issue 20-30 years ago and now suddenly it seems to be solved. Or was it a hoax after all? Like a severe draught was the reason of trees dying rather than acid rain...