Guild Wars pimping

vsp · 05-09-2005, 01:36 PM

I've been playing RPGs for a lot of years, but I've stayed far far away from the MMORPG (Massive Multiplayer Online RPG) genre, sticking with console RPGs and single-player games like Morrowind. Why?

* A single-player game is as good as the designers can make it. A multi-player game (whether co-op, competitive or both) is as good as the other players allow it to be.

This is a basic principle of multiplayer gaming, and will never change. Some games are harder to ruin than others, but it often doesn't take much for some enterprising soul to find a way to ruin everyone else's day.

Take Diablo, for instance. Diablo was the toast of the town for about three-point-eight seconds, right up until the point where people figured out how to duplicate items, create townkill hacks, create instant-kill hacks and otherwise destroy much of the possibility for reasonable gameplay.

A more recent example is <a href="http://www.kingdomofloathing.com">Kingdom of Loathing</a>, an otherwise-excellent web-text-based online RPG. Second verse, same as the first: rampant item duplication and bug exploits led to incredibly huge piles of meat (money) entering the game, completely hosing the game's economy. A variety of fixes have been implemented, but the game's never really recovered IMHO.

Online RPGs can be even nastier in these respects. In many of them, death can be catastrophic: corpses can be looted, experience penalties kick in, or you may end up spending considerable time returning to your corpse to reanimate it. There's also no thrill quite like buying an expensive item from someone else only to find later on that it's an illegal duplicate or similar fraud, or teaming up with 99 others for six hours to beat on the Really Nasty Megaboss only to have three log out and four others screw around at a critical moment and cause the whole quest to fail.

* Massive time commitments. I want a game, not a lifestyle.

I'm not much into games where "the grind" is paramount, where one spends umpteen hours fighting the same monsters over and over and over and over again in order to build up experience and collect items and materials necessary to keep up with the Joneses. If you have to be online sixteen hours a day to be competitive, I'm out. If you have to play sessions that are eight hours at a time to make meaningful progress, I'm also out. I would like to maintain a _slight_ semblance of an outside life and not be surrounded by urine-filled soda bottles, empty pizza boxes and a pungent aroma. They don't call it "Evercrack" for nothing.

* Competitive balance is difficult to maintain.

In games that permit player vs. player combat, there are always sniping wars between "carebears" (players who just want to be free to wander around and do whatever they wish, unmolested by human enemies) and hardcore PvPers (who recoil from the concept of anyone being immune to attack). Compromise between the two can be difficult to reach.

On a subtler level, players in online RPGs are often competing directly for limited resources, some of which are fairly fundamental to gameplay. Monsters that only spawn occasionally, for instance, can lead to large numbers of people standing around their "homes" ready to pounce.

Then there's the issue of what happens to players that AREN'T slaves to the grind. In games with a high maximum level/power threshold, occasional players will fall far behind diehards, to the point where people are seen selling high-level accounts on eBay and elsewhere.

* And did I mention the monthly fee?

I like to pay for my games all at once, thanks. If a game has a free install and a monthly fee after that, I might consider it, but it'd have to be REALLY addictive; if you're paying full price for the install disc AND fifteen bucks a month after that, it'd better have an arm that reaches through the monitor and gives you a handjob after each gaming session for it to be worth it.

All of the above is why I am quite impressed with <a href="http://www.guildwars.com">Guild Wars</a> so far. It was developed by a group that includes several former Blizzard employees, and it shows, as the game sidesteps most of the above problems of MMORPGs.

* No monthly fee.
* Short game sessions are quite possible and still productive, at least in the early to midgame. I haven't gotten far enough in to judge the late-game missions and such yet.
* Death is temporary and free of long-term consequences. Within a mission, you regenerate with a TEMPORARY stat penalty, which goes away over time or when you abandon the mission. Elsewhere, you simply teleport to the nearest shrine upon, otherwise unchanged and with all your gear.
* While there is foot travel when exploring, travel between known strongholds is instantaneous.
* Quests are spawned for individual parties (whether solo, with NPC henchmen or up to 4-8 PCs teamed up). When you leave town, it spawns an instance of the area with its own monsters, items and bosses; thus, other players aren't around to interfere with you or compete with you for targets and items.
* PvP combat is on strictly opt-in terms, but there are several different forms, ranging from 4x4 to 8x8x8 team sessions with varying rules.
* The low level cap (20) lets players concentrate on acquiring skills, rather than whomping on endless legions of critters over and over to build levels.
* The skill system is clever. You pick a primary and secondary class from the six available, and each has its own set of 100+ skills that are obtainable. Much of the midgame involves going out and finding/buying/earning new skills to supplement or replace those you already have. You can only have eight skills readied at a time, forcing you to tailor your skills and attributes towards your desired play style, though you can always go back and redistribute them in town if you make a mistake. Thus, success becomes a matter of developing and using clever ability/skill sets on both an individual and party level, rather than He Who's Played The Most Hours Wins.
* Did I mention that there's no monthly fee?

Four stars so far. Joe Bob says check it out.

richlevy · 05-09-2005, 08:16 PM

I played the demo during the beta test. It was pretty interesting. I like the concept of no monthly fees. Thats why I play Day of Defeat. Applying it to a MMPORG is a nice idea.

Pie · 05-10-2005, 08:05 AM

Well, shit. I've been playing Diablo II by myself (no online, no multiplayer) for years now. The same damn game over and over. I guess I'm really easy to amuse.
I saw the GW boxes last time I was at BestBuy -- perhaps I'll give it a try. And pay with $2 bills.

richlevy · 08-11-2006, 07:19 PM

So, I just broke down and bought Guild Wars. After two days I have a 10th Level Warrior and 5th Level Ranger.

Nice music and scenery. There is a lot of walking involved in some missions, even though you can use a map function to jump btween areas.

You guys have to e-mail me your characters names and we'll have some fun.

Stormieweather · 08-12-2006, 11:55 AM

My son has played it, but wasn't impressed enough to stick with it.

I play Everquest1 and have for 3 years. I'm an officer and raid leader in a top 5 guild on my server and really enjoy this game.

I played WoW for about a year as well (started in Beta0, but the immaturity of the majority of the players ruined it for me (I'm an old fart).

What I like about an online MMORPG is that I can play from home which lets me still be there for my kids, it is relatively inexpensive compared to dinners out or nightclubs, and the interaction with other people is much more immersing than a single player game. The friendships are the primary reason I keep playing. Many in-game friendships have developed into real life ones as well.

If anyone plays EQ1, pop onto 7thHammer and say hi to Stormieweather.

Stormie

Meiso · 08-18-2006, 02:52 PM

I've got an account on Eve-Online and currently hold a love-hate relationship with the game. I love it because of the free updates, the huge universe, the many possibilities, the emphasis on player community etc etc... but I have problems with the sheer amount of -time- you have to put into it to really get anywhere. You've got to get lucky and join a truely awesome player corporation to experience 6\8s of what Eve has to offer and so far I haven't really found that. Which is a shame, really... But I'd still recommend it, I'd just say you have to persevere and find a good group of mates to play it with.

DanaC · 08-18-2006, 09:43 PM

I used to play quite a few MMORPGs. Ultima Online, Shadowbane, Anarchy, Irth. WoW, Lineage2. Most of them didn't hold me, but UO did and Anarchy and Irth (not at the same time :P)

I am still looking for the one that'll give me a buzz like my first (uo) did.

9th Engineer · 08-18-2006, 10:15 PM

I have an account on Eve as well with about the same love/hate relationship. Mine is based more on the total lack of storyline though. Everything is perfect except for the fact that unless you are playing with your corp (very hard to find a good one) you are stuck with repetitive, boring missions and no larger plot. The time issue is one thing I like though, because I don't have to grind to gain experience. Even if I'm offline I still train, music to my ears.

Meiso · 08-19-2006, 04:06 AM

True; sorry to hijack the thread a little here... but I'm hoping that with the Path to Kali expansions, with all the dynamic empire borders and factional warfare and the like, that solo playing will get a boost. Or, at least, a viable way of playing.

05-09-2005, 01:36 PM	#1
vsp Syndrome of a Down Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: West Chester Posts: 1,367	Guild Wars pimping I've been playing RPGs for a lot of years, but I've stayed far far away from the MMORPG (Massive Multiplayer Online RPG) genre, sticking with console RPGs and single-player games like Morrowind. Why? * A single-player game is as good as the designers can make it. A multi-player game (whether co-op, competitive or both) is as good as the other players allow it to be. This is a basic principle of multiplayer gaming, and will never change. Some games are harder to ruin than others, but it often doesn't take much for some enterprising soul to find a way to ruin everyone else's day. Take Diablo, for instance. Diablo was the toast of the town for about three-point-eight seconds, right up until the point where people figured out how to duplicate items, create townkill hacks, create instant-kill hacks and otherwise destroy much of the possibility for reasonable gameplay. A more recent example is <a href="http://www.kingdomofloathing.com">Kingdom of Loathing</a>, an otherwise-excellent web-text-based online RPG. Second verse, same as the first: rampant item duplication and bug exploits led to incredibly huge piles of meat (money) entering the game, completely hosing the game's economy. A variety of fixes have been implemented, but the game's never really recovered IMHO. Online RPGs can be even nastier in these respects. In many of them, death can be catastrophic: corpses can be looted, experience penalties kick in, or you may end up spending considerable time returning to your corpse to reanimate it. There's also no thrill quite like buying an expensive item from someone else only to find later on that it's an illegal duplicate or similar fraud, or teaming up with 99 others for six hours to beat on the Really Nasty Megaboss only to have three log out and four others screw around at a critical moment and cause the whole quest to fail. * Massive time commitments. I want a game, not a lifestyle. I'm not much into games where "the grind" is paramount, where one spends umpteen hours fighting the same monsters over and over and over and over again in order to build up experience and collect items and materials necessary to keep up with the Joneses. If you have to be online sixteen hours a day to be competitive, I'm out. If you have to play sessions that are eight hours at a time to make meaningful progress, I'm also out. I would like to maintain a _slight_ semblance of an outside life and not be surrounded by urine-filled soda bottles, empty pizza boxes and a pungent aroma. They don't call it "Evercrack" for nothing. * Competitive balance is difficult to maintain. In games that permit player vs. player combat, there are always sniping wars between "carebears" (players who just want to be free to wander around and do whatever they wish, unmolested by human enemies) and hardcore PvPers (who recoil from the concept of anyone being immune to attack). Compromise between the two can be difficult to reach. On a subtler level, players in online RPGs are often competing directly for limited resources, some of which are fairly fundamental to gameplay. Monsters that only spawn occasionally, for instance, can lead to large numbers of people standing around their "homes" ready to pounce. Then there's the issue of what happens to players that AREN'T slaves to the grind. In games with a high maximum level/power threshold, occasional players will fall far behind diehards, to the point where people are seen selling high-level accounts on eBay and elsewhere. * And did I mention the monthly fee? I like to pay for my games all at once, thanks. If a game has a free install and a monthly fee after that, I might consider it, but it'd have to be REALLY addictive; if you're paying full price for the install disc AND fifteen bucks a month after that, it'd better have an arm that reaches through the monitor and gives you a handjob after each gaming session for it to be worth it. All of the above is why I am quite impressed with <a href="http://www.guildwars.com">Guild Wars</a> so far. It was developed by a group that includes several former Blizzard employees, and it shows, as the game sidesteps most of the above problems of MMORPGs. * No monthly fee. * Short game sessions are quite possible and still productive, at least in the early to midgame. I haven't gotten far enough in to judge the late-game missions and such yet. * Death is temporary and free of long-term consequences. Within a mission, you regenerate with a TEMPORARY stat penalty, which goes away over time or when you abandon the mission. Elsewhere, you simply teleport to the nearest shrine upon, otherwise unchanged and with all your gear. * While there is foot travel when exploring, travel between known strongholds is instantaneous. * Quests are spawned for individual parties (whether solo, with NPC henchmen or up to 4-8 PCs teamed up). When you leave town, it spawns an instance of the area with its own monsters, items and bosses; thus, other players aren't around to interfere with you or compete with you for targets and items. * PvP combat is on strictly opt-in terms, but there are several different forms, ranging from 4x4 to 8x8x8 team sessions with varying rules. * The low level cap (20) lets players concentrate on acquiring skills, rather than whomping on endless legions of critters over and over to build levels. * The skill system is clever. You pick a primary and secondary class from the six available, and each has its own set of 100+ skills that are obtainable. Much of the midgame involves going out and finding/buying/earning new skills to supplement or replace those you already have. You can only have eight skills readied at a time, forcing you to tailor your skills and attributes towards your desired play style, though you can always go back and redistribute them in town if you make a mistake. Thus, success becomes a matter of developing and using clever ability/skill sets on both an individual and party level, rather than He Who's Played The Most Hours Wins. * Did I mention that there's no monthly fee? Four stars so far. Joe Bob says check it out.

05-09-2005, 08:16 PM	#2
richlevy King Of Wishful Thinking Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Philadelphia Suburbs Posts: 6,669	I played the demo during the beta test. It was pretty interesting. I like the concept of no monthly fees. Thats why I play Day of Defeat. Applying it to a MMPORG is a nice idea. __________________ Exercise your rights and remember your obligations - VOTE! I have always believed that hope is that stubborn thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us so long as we have the courage to keep reaching, to keep working, to keep fighting. -- Barack Hussein Obama

05-10-2005, 08:05 AM	#3
Pie Gone and done Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 4,808	Well, shit. I've been playing Diablo II by myself (no online, no multiplayer) for years now. The same damn game over and over. I guess I'm really easy to amuse. I saw the GW boxes last time I was at BestBuy -- perhaps I'll give it a try. And pay with $2 bills. __________________ per·son \ˈpər-sən\ (noun) - an ephemeral collection of small, irrational decisions The fun thing about evolution (and science in general) is that it happens whether you believe in it or not.

08-11-2006, 07:19 PM	#4
richlevy King Of Wishful Thinking Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Philadelphia Suburbs Posts: 6,669	So, I just broke down and bought Guild Wars. After two days I have a 10th Level Warrior and 5th Level Ranger. Nice music and scenery. There is a lot of walking involved in some missions, even though you can use a map function to jump btween areas. You guys have to e-mail me your characters names and we'll have some fun. __________________ Exercise your rights and remember your obligations - VOTE! I have always believed that hope is that stubborn thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us so long as we have the courage to keep reaching, to keep working, to keep fighting. -- Barack Hussein Obama

08-12-2006, 11:55 AM	#5
Stormieweather Wearing her bitch boots Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Floriduh Posts: 1,181	My son has played it, but wasn't impressed enough to stick with it. I play Everquest1 and have for 3 years. I'm an officer and raid leader in a top 5 guild on my server and really enjoy this game. I played WoW for about a year as well (started in Beta0, but the immaturity of the majority of the players ruined it for me (I'm an old fart). What I like about an online MMORPG is that I can play from home which lets me still be there for my kids, it is relatively inexpensive compared to dinners out or nightclubs, and the interaction with other people is much more immersing than a single player game. The friendships are the primary reason I keep playing. Many in-game friendships have developed into real life ones as well. If anyone plays EQ1, pop onto 7thHammer and say hi to Stormieweather. Stormie __________________ "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi

08-18-2006, 02:52 PM	#6
Meiso Hairy Bear Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: England Posts: 29	I've got an account on Eve-Online and currently hold a love-hate relationship with the game. I love it because of the free updates, the huge universe, the many possibilities, the emphasis on player community etc etc... but I have problems with the sheer amount of -time- you have to put into it to really get anywhere. You've got to get lucky and join a truely awesome player corporation to experience 6\8s of what Eve has to offer and so far I haven't really found that. Which is a shame, really... But I'd still recommend it, I'd just say you have to persevere and find a good group of mates to play it with. __________________ I want wings. Wings are supreme. And I'm a little bit (but only a little bit) sorry for what follows... http://www.exceed-network.com - lifetime webpages and targeted internet marketing for a one-off cost from just £10. Nifty, eh?

08-18-2006, 09:43 PM	#7
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	I used to play quite a few MMORPGs. Ultima Online, Shadowbane, Anarchy, Irth. WoW, Lineage2. Most of them didn't hold me, but UO did and Anarchy and Irth (not at the same time :P) I am still looking for the one that'll give me a buzz like my first (uo) did.

08-18-2006, 10:15 PM	#8
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	I have an account on Eve as well with about the same love/hate relationship. Mine is based more on the total lack of storyline though. Everything is perfect except for the fact that unless you are playing with your corp (very hard to find a good one) you are stuck with repetitive, boring missions and no larger plot. The time issue is one thing I like though, because I don't have to grind to gain experience. Even if I'm offline I still train, music to my ears. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

08-19-2006, 04:06 AM	#9
Meiso Hairy Bear Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: England Posts: 29	True; sorry to hijack the thread a little here... but I'm hoping that with the Path to Kali expansions, with all the dynamic empire borders and factional warfare and the like, that solo playing will get a boost. Or, at least, a viable way of playing. __________________ I want wings. Wings are supreme. And I'm a little bit (but only a little bit) sorry for what follows... http://www.exceed-network.com - lifetime webpages and targeted internet marketing for a one-off cost from just £10. Nifty, eh?

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