one nation under whose God?

[Nic Name]

While there may be a Constitutional separation of church and state in America ... there is little room for a separation of fundamentalist Christianity and American patriotism, which are too often treated as moral equivalents and common values of all Americans.

Many American politicians today seem to miss the point that the separation of church and state in the Constitution is to ensure religious freedoms.

Ironworker David O'Neal poses at his home in Effort, Pennsylvania, June 20, 2002 while showing a cross he made from World Trade Center rubble. O'Neal worked at Ground Zero for months and has become ill due to exposure to the smoke and chemicals in the remains of the World Trade Center. O'Neal is standing in front of a flag he flew at the former sight of the World Trade Center. REUTERS/Chip East

[elSicomoro]

The god is mine. You may worship it on a pay-per-pray basis.

[jaguar]

LOl
Was a matter of time.
Will you ahve peak and off peak rates? Weekend specials? 3for1 specials on 1hour prayer sessions? Why not set up a money lending store just in the enterance to help cover those times when you forget your wallet

[Griff]

Originally posted by Nic Name
... there is little room for a separation of fundamentalist Christianity and American patriotism, which are too often treated as moral equivalents and common values of all Americans.

Many American politicians today seem to miss the point that the separation of church and state in the Constitution is to ensure religious freedoms.

Exactly on the mark Nic. This is very helpful when the dogs of war are unleashed. You're not killing so your neighbors SUV is an affordable ride, you are killing for God and his chosen people.

[Nic Name]

How crazy is it that an American, who pursues his patriotic beliefs in a civilized manner by taking his grievance with the government throught the American judicial system where a panel of Appeal Court Justices agree with his opinion that a governmental law or regulation is not legal because the Constitution prohibits it ... is labelled unpatriotic by so many Americans, and is getting telephone threats from the God squad telling him he's a dead man, somebody's gonna kill him and that he had better change his views real quick.

Ironically, the telephone callers regard themselves as Christians and patriotic Americans. So did Timothy McVeigh.

I don't think Timothy McVeigh's actions were driven by religion so much as his intense desire to teach the government a lesson. Whether or not he succeeded is another story. In a way, though, I can see how he could be considered a patriot... just a misguided one.

[Griff]

I'm afraid sometimes folks don't see the differance between patriotism and nationalism and quite frankly that scares the crap out of me.

[Nic Name]

Originally posted by dhamsaic, referring to McVeigh

In a way, though, I can see how he could be considered a patriot... just a misguided one.

So, all other things being the same, if McVeigh had been an American Muslim could you see how he could be considered a patriot ... just a misguided one?

I submit that many Americans' perceptions of terrorism are colored by religion and racial heritage.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Nic Name
I submit that many Americans' perceptions of terrorism are colored by religion and racial heritage.

In the case of many Americans, possibly most...yes.

IMO, if McVeigh would have been Muslim, and his M.O. was still the same, certainly, he could still be considered a "misguided patriot." He would also still be an idiot, and dead.

Originally posted by Nic Name
So, all other things being the same, if McVeigh had been an American Muslim could you see how he could be considered a patriot ... just a misguided one?

Yep. He's still a terrorist - don't get me wrong. But I believe his intention was to do to the government what it had done to the Branch Davidians at Waco. Obviously he couldn't hit the head honchos, but he picked a government target. His goal was not to "destroy America" or "to kill Americans whereever they are" or to fight "the Great Satan". His goal was to show the government that they can't go around killing their own citizens.

In the case of McVeigh, he is really only "worse" than the government because his body count was higher. Otherwise, what he was doing was killing people that he had no right to be killing - same as the government did at Waco.

Were the Branch Davidians nutjobs? Probably. Did they have weapons? Absolutely. Were they child molestors? No. Were they planning to topple the government? All signs point to "no". Yet the government attacked them, largely out of ignorance, and in the end was responsible for their deaths.

I submit that many Americans' perceptions of terrorism are colored by religion and racial heritage.

I submitted almost this very same thing in a discussion last month which I know you read. It really has nothing to do with McVeigh though - most Americans did, and still do, consider him a terrorist.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by jaguar
Will you ahve peak and off peak rates? Weekend specials? 3for1 specials on 1hour prayer sessions? Why not set up a money lending store just in the enterance to help cover those times when you forget your wallet

Interesting questions jag...

--Buy 2 hours, get the third free

--Get a baptism, get your wedding 30% off

--Higher rates for Sundays and holy days

--ATM and loan officer on premises

--MC, Visa, Discover, Amex, and travelers checks (in US funds) accepted. Personal checks also accepted with a valid drivers or nondrivers license and one of the above credit cards.

--You could buy a membership. So, if the cost was $5 per visit, and you visited once a week, you'd pay $260. With a membership, you would get unlimited visits for $199.99.

Online prayer is available. MC, Visa, Discover, and Amex accepted.

Of course, there's always "pray-per-view" as well, available for Christmas, Easter, and most major holy days.