Post-Traumatic Slave Disorder? You gotta be shitting me....

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

Yes, and we were talking about current attitudes, not ancient techniques.

Actually, we're talking about jag's assumptions about Americans. I referenced history to undermine the assumption that Americans are more "open to the idea" of torture than Europeans are. Its not in our culture and its not in our history whereas European culture and history is saturated with it.

Subtly wrapped inside jag's ever-so-predicatable anti-American opinion is the implication of moral superiority. I point out Europe's history not to allege American moral superiority nor to embarrass Europe but to refute jag's assertion of European morally superiority.

Jag is not "in touch" with the American people and merely extends his hatred for our government to our people. America just had to face one of the more disgusting moments in its institutional history - the child abuse scandal of the Catholic Church. At no time during the course of that scandal did I hear calls for the perpetrating priests to be tortured - not on TV, not in the mainstream press, the independent press, the underground press, mainstream talk shows nor local talk shows. Not once. I think that experience alone pretty much refutes jag's point not that there was every any basis to it to begin with.

[Cyber Wolf]

Jag's allowed that opinion isn't he? Frankly, Bush isn't really 'in touch' with the average American either and he LIVES here.

And perhaps there wasn't outcry in the media for the priests torture, per say, but that sentiment has been expressed. On the whole, we as a society are so scared of being ostrasized and the media is very selective in what it shows. The press is the press and they're going to pander to their interests. If their interests aren't in covering how much people might want these priests flogged then have their hearts cut out, they won't cover it. There's a more interesting story in exposing the sins of the holy anyway.

We have torture here in America, but it's not so much physical as it is mental and emotional. Take our spiderweb of laws in three flavors (local, state, federal), add some psychologists, a few lawyers and hard-nosed judges and you have the ingredients for traumatizing a person in the head (or wallet) for the rest of his life. Of course, this is not to say this doesn't happen anywhere else; it's just that for torture, while others tortured you by letting 4 horses tear you apart or some such, America developed and maintains a method of torture that can last much much longer and can be much more damaging in the long run. Excessive mental stress, gone unchecked, is slow death after all.

edit: spelling

[Catwoman]

I understand it must be extremely frustrating when Americans are painted with the same brush as Dubya et al, and that foreign policy does not automatically extend into public opinion. I feel the same when people use British history (which is full of barbarity) to refute any argument about another country's systematic torture. But 'you did it first' is simply not a valid argument anymore. I am not saying American history is any more tarnished than European history, or that Americans today are in any respect 'inferior', and I don't think jag was either. Just that, and I am only going on contact I have had with Americans here and elsewhere, the prevailing attitude seems to be exceedingly retaliatory, and I refer to the death penalty, the 'eye-for-an-eye' mentality, response to terrorism, and war.

There is an overwhelming tendency to respond to hatred with hatred, violence with violence. I see immense inferiority issues in the government and the people, with great national pride often turning to blind patriotism in the face of adversity, and foreign policy continually designed to reinforce America's position as 'king of the world'. This status you pride yourselves on can only lead to hostility from what you may consider 'lesser' countries, and betrays an underlying insecurity resulting from various attacks on your confidence from Vietnam to 9/11.

Your catholic church example does not prove anything either way. I am talking about attitude - attitude that you may not see openly published in your national publications, more the kind of attitude you see exposed in forums and discussion groups, and the kind people like Michael Moore are so kind to point out.

The couple of North Americans I have actually met have been lovely people, and have wanted almost from the outset to rid themselves of the perception of America that the world has voted as trigger happy, self-centred and status-obsessed. They assure me that, unfortunately, this attitude is reflective of wider opinion.

It fills me with sadness that in 2004 this kind of attitude still exists, and dominates. We all want the same things - to live, to eat, drink and sleep comfortably. Why can't we all just get on with it, and leave puny politics, greed and creative killings out of it?

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

I am only going on contact I have had with Americans here and elsewhere, the prevailing attitude seems to be exceedingly retaliatory, and I refer to the death penalty, the 'eye-for-an-eye' mentality, response to terrorism, and war.

There is an overwhelming tendency to respond to hatred with hatred, violence with violence...

I think you are painting with too broad a brush, Catwoman. You admit that the North Americans you have actually met in person are nothing like the "typical" American you are talking about.

You also say that your opinions are being formed in part by the discussion forums like this one. It is possible that people are playing devils advocate just a little? For example, in the thread about the teacher, even you were arguing a position that you later admitted you didn't hold.

Sure, some people believe in the death penalty, and post tiring repetitive messages about it. Don't let repetitive posts by one or two people skew your perception of what many other people think. There are a lot of americans opposed to the death penalty, and support for it has been declining steadily in recent years. Link

The US is a pretty evenly divided country. The last presidential election was split 50/50.

I disagree with many of the specific actions taken by Bush, but the underlying theory he has about fighting terrorism is a good one. We can't defend against terrorists, so if we are going to fight them, we have to take the battle to them. Attack them first in their countries. The problem is that we have to be careful to not cause resentment against us and create more terrorism as a result. It's a delicate balancing act, and Bush has failed at it.

We should also have a carrot-stick approach. Bush is using a stick, but not providing a carrot. That's a mistake too.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

I am seriously worried about your states of mind. God forbid this vicious, sadistic, retaliatory attitude is representative of most Americans.

Beats the hell out of the british attitude of blaming and imprisoning the victim and letting the criminal go free in return for testifying against him.

[Catwoman]

Glatt, good point, well made, and taken.

Wolf I don't suppose you noticed the irony of your retaliatory post.

[jaguar]

Well gee beestie, since catwoman has pointed out the utter irrelevancy of the events of the fucking middle ages I'll just have to get right into it.

I'm having great trouble expressing this so I'll be blunt. There are plenty of good, intelligent, creative and wonderful americans and I know a fair few.

It's a pity what we see over here is a self absorbed, decadent, dangerous, apathetic savages. This is no exaggeration. Frankly, threads like this don't do much to change that opinion and trust me, it's the prevailing one. I have seen nothing to suggest it is incorrect. Show me something and I might change my mind. I read widely, I watch the polls, I'm heavily involved in dissecting foreign policy and I've made a lot of money by analyzing situations, it's not like I'm just following popular opinion. Outside people I work with in various capacities and most of the people on here, every american I deal with has been obnoxious, ill informed and annoying. Hell at least once a week I'm asked by the staff at where I have lunch to explain to yet another bunch of overweight american tourists that we don't accept the goddamn euro, is if that fucking hard to understand what country you're in?

Yea, I'm angry, I genuinely hate the US as a country, you're the biggest danger to international peace, you're exporting you're toxic laws by forcing trade agreements, you slow down and try and stop any move to develop an international consensus on anything from the goddamn landmine treaty to environment protocols. What is there to like? Even your mainstream culture is a toxic ooze. You lead the road downhill to the lowest common denominator. There are plenty of great things in America and plenty of great americans but as a whole? No wonder most of the developed world dislikes Americans until they demonstrate some merit. I judge people individually and once I know them, they will be judged by their individual merits and flaws but you start with a negative preditposition because experience has created that.

Europe is no land of milk and honey but things don't seem to be anywhere near as bad here. We also don't don't have the infuriating smug patriotism that makes it doubly bad.

[Cyber Wolf]

Until you've lived in and been a part of a country and its people for some time, it's very hard to really know what the average person of that country thinks about things. Even then, you'd only know sentiment regarding what's happening at the time you were there. No one should make sweeping generalizations based on tourists, movies or secondhand information dispersal, like polls. Polls and media reports will be colored to fit whatever statement the pollster or media outlet is trying to say. You can't look at someone's shoes and complain how uncomfortable they are without actually wearing them. And this goes for both ends of this particular spat.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by jaguar

It's a pity what we see over here is a self absorbed, decadent, dangerous, apathetic savages. This is no exaggeration. Frankly, threads like this don't do much to change that opinion and trust me, it's the prevailing one. I have seen nothing to suggest it is incorrect. Show me something and I might change my mind. I read widely, I watch the polls, I'm heavily involved in dissecting foreign policy and I've made a lot of money by analyzing situations, it's not like I'm just following popular opinion. Outside people I work with in various capacities and most of the people on here, every american I deal with has been obnoxious, ill informed and annoying...


Yea, I'm angry, I genuinely hate the US as a country, you're the biggest danger to international peace, you're exporting you're toxic laws by forcing trade agreements, you slow down and try and stop any move to develop an international consensus on anything from the goddamn landmine treaty to environment protocols. What is there to like? Even your mainstream culture is a toxic ooze. You lead the road downhill to the lowest common denominator. There are plenty of great things in America and plenty of great americans but as a whole? No wonder most of the developed world dislikes Americans until they demonstrate some merit. I judge people individually and once I know them, they will be judged by their individual merits and flaws but you start with a negative preditposition because experience has created that.

Europe is no land of milk and honey but things don't seem to be anywhere near as bad here. We also don't don't have the infuriating smug patriotism that makes it doubly bad.

Dear Jag,

With all due respect, which isn't much, Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

Sincerely,
An American Savage

[Undertoad]

Well Jag, if that's the case I'd advise getting out, because if there really is that deep of a cultural break, then the US will not defend Europe next time, and all those Euro nations that have shamefully spent only 2% of their GDP on defense for decades because they thought NATO would live forever will get rolled.

[jaguar]

I am saying that that is what popular opinion over here is, the situation is obviously more complex but most of the time we don't see much evidence of that. Politics and culture are complex and so are the reasons behind people's actions but shit, I have to deal with the fallout of irrational leadership of the 'leader of the free world' on an almost daily basis, as far as I'm concerned, I've got ample ground to be pissed. Benefit of the doubt is something you only get once. I've got plenty of evidence on one side, and little or none on the other, is my position, as a result of those facts, much of a surprise?

Such detailed replies, pointing out how obviously wrong I am such as lookout has done certainly help. They demonstrate a fair and balanced populous concerned about their world image. Go munch on some freedom fries you self defeating halfwit.

UT: The 60s called, they want their foreign policy back. Invade? Yes, China is going to invade I assume? Or maybe Russia?

That said, assuming bush does leave office things will get better on a political level at least. Bush as a certain toxicity that is hard to match, while he remains in office few leaders want to be seen near him, as soon as he leaves things will start to normalize.

[Beestie]

jag, you are free to hate America all you want. I will not be drawn into the no-win situation of providing you with a never-ending list of America's accomplishments and contributions (and there are many) to make the world a better place in hopes of gaining your approval. I have no intention of justifying myself or my country to you.

What has your country done to make the world a better place? Justify your place at the world table or is it only America that needs to prove itself. And why should our patriotism - our love for our own country - bother anyone? I'm not ashamed to love America and what it stands for and I grow weary of being constantly put on the defensive for who we are. Who we are (**smug patriotism alert**) is the most successful and prosperous nation in the history of this planet and we did it without any input or help from Europe. Where else can a refugee from a despot arrive with $20.00 and go on to run a Fortune 500 company? That type of success is commonplace here. America is and will continue to be the land of dreams - no European country can even come close to providing that kind of opportunity - unless you call living on the dole or paying 70% taxes an opportunity. Americans are the most productive, hard-working and un-lazy people on earth. And in what other country would a film that is harshly critical of itself and its leader be a major blockbuster? Americans are the FIRST to be self-critical - our entire history is centered on that type of freedom.

I will, however, admit to one of the points in your post - America spends too much of its time, money and blood in places that we shouldn't. We have far too many of our citizens buried in foreign soil. I don't think Americans should die to defend the citizens of other countries unless those countries would do the same for us. Is there a Frenchman on earth who would lay down his life for America? Or for France for that matter?

Your mind is made up and there is little I can do about that. I can make one suggestion, however, - tell the dumbasses in the restaurant you eat at to put up a sign - "We do not accept the Euro from fatass American tourists" - is that so hard to come up with?

[jaguar]

I don't really have a country so it's a little hard, some weeks I'm in the Uk, some in Switzerland, hell Australia on occasion.

The thing is though, no country really makes the world a better place, read the docterine of Enlightened Self Interest but most don't make quite as worse as the US does, that's the difference. Part of it is simply being the biggest fish in the pond at the moment, part sheer arrogance.

As for the rags to riches american dream stuff, if you can point out the 'no refugees are allowed to succeed' law on the books, please do, otherwise you have no point. Taxes may be higher but that's because we choose to have compassion on the poor rather than make healthcare more expensive for them than anyone else. Most successful state in history? Please. Try Rome.

Is there a frenchmen who would lay down his life for America? (now here is the point where I feel oddly jusitified in saying americans are ignorant of the world) Try most of Normandy, it's not just a beach in a history book, it's an entire region of France that still has strong links to the US, hell many villages laid down plaques in memory of 9/11. Of course then you do on to mention France, demonstrating not only your xenophobia but your arrogance as well. Heck many French troops are busy doing peacekeeping work in Africa. Might want to look into the origins of one of your national symbols as well.

It's interesting, this thread is bringing out the worst in everyone.

[jaguar]

Ah this is pointless. My views will change when the situation changes which it no doubt will in the coming decades, until then there really is little to discuss here.

[glatt]

Jaguar, I'm not sure how to respond to your post, because you are shooting at targets all over the place. Let me summarize your post instead.

I understand you to be saying that when you get a chance to know an American, through this board or by working along side of them, you seem to think they are OK. But when you have superficial contact with one, you don't like them. That's understandable. I live in the Washington DC area. As the nation's capital, we get a lot of tourists here. They aren't familiar with the area or its customs, and they can be annoying as a result. They get in the way. For an American in a foreign country, the problem is even greater. If you had a chance to get to know those tourists and talk to them in depth, I'm certain that you would end up thinking many more of them are OK.

I understand that you don't care for US foreign policy. I can understand that, and won't even try to defend it. The US foreign policy is there to benefit our country, not yours. If both can benefit at the same time, that's great, but if there is a conflict, we will look out for our best interests. Feel free to hate us for it. I would too, if I were in your shoes. But understand that lots of times, our role as policeman of the world means that we need to take some positions (like the landmine one) that seem bad on the surface, but have good reasons backing them up. I would mention also that foreign policy changes somewhat from administration to administration, and the current administration is supported by only half the citizens of our country. There have been a lot of foreign policy missteps in this administration, but to judge an entire country based on the leadership is unfair. Especially when the leadership has such a tenuous grasp on power.

You don't like US entertainment. You think it is reaching for the lowest common denominator. Well, I'll agree with you on that one. But there are some good shows/movies that come out of that manure pile every once in a while. There are some gems from British TV, but there is a lot of crap there too.

Overall, I understand your frustration, but saying that you hate america as a nation is really going a little overboard, don't you think?