A National ID Card

[russotto]

Originally posted by Undertoad
I've met people who believe that SSN is optional (probably), that driver's licenses are unconstitutional (probably not)... even people who believe that the federal income tax is entirely voluntary (definitely not). Some of these people have completely opted out of the system. Once in a while the system coughs one of 'em up and prosecutes the hell out of them to try to make a point.

From what I've seen, they work the system in their various ways, and mostly stay afloat by playing the bureaucracy against itself.

Mostly they're also too dirt poor for the system to bother with. After all, the system doesn't really care if you drive around without a driver's license (ask the Phila city council), but they do care if you don't pay your taxes... but not if your total income is near zero and the sum total of your property is one broken-down 1973 pickup truck.

[Undertoad]

Mostly. But I've known a few libs who took things to an extreme, and heard about many more. Including one gent who worked for Unisys and actually sued them to force them to stop using the SSN he renounced, and then to stop withholding his pay. I believe he was successful all around; I haven't heard of him being carted off to jail, and I'm on the periphery of some of the same circles he is, so I think I would have heard about it.

Five years ago at least, the thinking was that while US citizens are required to pay taxes, the official definition of "US citizen" includes only the federally-controlled zones such as US Virgin Islands. People in the states were actually state citizens not US citizens, and therefore under the letter of the law they are not required to file. Some have also played with the legal definitions of "income", "wages" etc.

Their thinking also included the concept that the people at the top have known this all along, and that to correct this "situation" would require the closing of some rather large constitutional loopholes. The IRS itself refers to the system as one of "voluntary compliance" which they have taken to believe has serious legal implications in their favor.

The biggest flaw in all this is that judges don't act within the letter of the law. It's not enough to whip out your Black's and explain that the official legal definition of "citizen" is something different than what 99.9999% of the population believes, and that the entire system depends upon. The judge can rule however s/he likes. It's not like a logical/rational system where if you find the flaw you topple the entire hypothesis. There are arguments for and arguments against, and most judges will act politically, follow precedence, etc.

Check out this dude who believes that the mere fact they haven't gotten him for 10 years means that he must be onto something.

I like having nice interstate highways to drive on (or let Jenni drive me on). I like having the armed forces to protect the citizens of this country. I like having police to respond to domestic disturbances, and I thoroughly enjoy the fact that Medicare will be paying for my mother's medical expenses relatively soon. I think I'll keep paying taxes.

As for those that don't... get the fuck out. Thank you very much.

[Griff]

One reason I lean libertarian is that I do pay all my taxes and follow all the stupid laws. Unlike Gov. George Pataki, whose mother is reportedly now a ward of the state,I believe, if at all possible, we should pay our own medical bills and not use our fellow tax-payers to protect an inheiritance that some folks feel entitled to. I have a "friend" whose grandmother was stripped of her assetts and put on the dole so he could buy a lakehouse and blow a wad in the stock market while his sister lives off her inheiritance in the islands. I' like them and the rest of the entitlement addicted upper-class to get the f*ck out.

[Undertoad]

Well, I don't know where the line gets drawn between living civilly under rule of law and obeying even the laws that don't seem right, and fighting the system by not obeying those laws.

[Griff]

That is a very tough call. I guess when the individual reaches his/her breaking point depends on circumstance. A guy whose wife I knew in school is major Democrat locally and really enjoys a political scrap. He found out I was a member of the LPPA so he was ready to get on me for ducking taxes etc... and was speechless when he found out how anal I am about being law abiding. I figure many Democrats are like ex-Pres Clinton. They support new laws with good intentions but reserve the right to ignore any that have negative impact on them particularly. I'd probably break somewhere on the erosion of property rights, although I did spend a pile on a questionable state mandated septic system when better cheaper systems exist. I do live in a township with few ordinances relating to building and farming so I'm not confronted by this stuff daily.

[bluebomber]

Originally posted by Scopulus Argentarius


Point1... Yes there already is a unique identifier (sort of) - usually a SSN. Sometimes they use a UID of their own making. A SSN is unique to every living 'registered' American Citizen; it is supposedly recycled to the living from the dead. It is 'voluntary'. It should not be used to concatinate information, but was a convenient choice for many of these companies (and government organizations) that collect the information. And Yes, people have been defrauded because of the commity of the SSN's use. The act of defrauding occured by criminal individuals or groups. There are laws that attempt to prevent large companies from abusing that information. Sometime organizations choose to violate these laws anyway and they do get hammered for it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "UID of their own making", but you are right in that it is supposedly voluntary. Most people, however, do not get that choice: their parents register them for a SSN without their consent (not that you can consent when you're a minor).

One nit: SSNs are not recycled from the dead to the living: http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/...=000411-000062

[bluebomber]

Originally posted by lisa

I'll end MY rant with one of my favorite quotes:

"People who are willing to sacrifice freedom in exchange for security will receive neither" - B. Franklin

Arrrgggggggh. That's one of my favorite quotes too, at least when BF isn't misquoted:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

The problem with the misquoting is that it covers too much. For example, I give up freedom every time I get in my car and drive the speed limit. The security that I get in exchange is that nobody else (for the most part) is driving whatever speed they want. However, that is not an essential liberty, nor is the safety temporary.

When do the liberties become essential and the security temporary? That gets a little fuzzy.

-bb

[elSicomoro]

This is the first time I have posted to this topic...probably because I don't really have a strong opinion on this. But, for what it's worth:

--I see nothing wrong with a national ID, depending on what it consists of. I don't think it compromises my freedom.

--The government probably already knows what I'm doing right now.

--"It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious."--unknown

--My (soon to be former) employer is getting ready to implement palm scans in order to gain access to work areas. Why this is needed for an insurance call center...no clue.

--I do worry about the whole DNA thing. I fear it would be abused as it was in the movie "Gattaga."

I think I'm going to request a copy of my FBI file under the Freedom of Information Act. I'm curious to see what it says.

Heh. Like they wouldn't take out the things they didn't want you to know that they knew. Or at least, they would, if you had anything in there...

It's "Gattaca", btw, in case anyone wants to look it up on IMDb or whatever. And yeah, that would be pretty scary.

bluebomber - good points. I tried to get the quote as accurate as I could find it when I reposted. At least, I remember me doing that. But you're right, and it's a question I ask myself (and others) a lot - where do you draw that line? How can you call one thing "essential" and not another? Doesn't this differ from person to person?

[lisa]

Originally posted by dhamsaic
It's "Gattaca", btw, in case anyone wants to look it up on IMDb or whatever. And yeah, that would be pretty scary.

Yeah, I always thought the name of that movie was cute. I dunno if most people figured it out or not, but it took me about 45 minutes into the film to realize why they named it that.

At the risk of seeming condecending, for those who don't know, the name consits of ONLY the four letters that repesent constituents of the genetic code (forgive misspellings):

G - Guanine
A - Adinine
C - Cytocine
T - Thyamine

I apoologize if this is OT. I just found it clever enough that I had to mention it.

Neat. I hadn't realized that.

Here's an IMDb link - http://us.imdb.com/Title?0119177

Sure enough, the first thing on the "Trivia" page is that bit...

[Griff]

Great movie, even if I didn't figure out the title. DULP!

Heh. Being a movie buff, I wouldn't say it was great - but I'd give it something like "pretty good. Definitely enjoyable. Will probably buy the DVD if it hits $15 or less."

I'd honestly probably give it 3 outta 4. But now we're getting way off topic - this is the NID card thread, after all. We need to start a "Movies" forum or thread somewhere and discuss 'em. That'd be cool.

[Undertoad]

How bout "Entertainment"?