continue Religion debate to infinity here

[wolf]

Originally posted by jaguar
How would you go about promoting spirituality without religion? The idea interests me but a model for such an idea is rather hard to come by. Religion and spirituality as a subject is deeply interesting but its teaching will always cause discourse.

Well ... I don't know that I'd necessarily go about promoting anything ... that's kind of the trouble, you know ... selling one system over another is what leads to the problem.

On second thought, it kind of HAS been done ... A Course in Miracles, The Celestine Prophecy, and every book written by Dipak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, Michael Harner or Andrew Weil are pretty much packaging and selling spirituality as a concept separate from religion. I don't know that any one or combination of these folks have enough penetration in the marketplace (especially outside of the Western hemisphere) to have any real impact.

I don't know that there actually is an answer here ... I come from the perspective that humans are naturally divisive ... they seek out conflict whenever possible, and base that conflict on some observable or imagined difference. (race, politics, religion) ... there's always an us vs. them mentality ... our warriors are superior to your warriors, our gods can kick your god's ass, The Eagles rule and the Giants Suck. (Frankly, I don't much care about sports, but it is a modern expression of the warrior spirit in a lot of ways. Of course there's a lot more money involved.)

On the flipside, we're both wasting our time argueing with this prat so...

I don't know about you, but where I am it's 0230 hrs on Christmas Eve. There's not a lot else going on here. And besides. I find this fun.

[hermit22]

Originally posted by Cairo
Everybody -
Please note for the record that I was personally attacked first, which has always been the case...
but now I'm pointing it out beforehand.

And about the school system...any system(Government or Business) that "loses" 2 Million dollars in one year...that system is severely broke!

Actually, I can remember several pointed and baseless personal attacks on me, whereas I make every effort to keep my comments free from personal attacks.

I'll leave the environmental response to Jaguar, who did a well enough job.

I find it funny, however, that the price of education to Cairo is $2M. Obviously it's a random figure she pulled out of her ass, but it paints a pretty clear picture of where her head is.

Oh wait -- I think I just conflicted myself...oh well.

[hermit22]

Originally posted by wolf

On second thought, it kind of HAS been done ... A Course in Miracles, The Celestine Prophecy, and every book written by Dipak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, Michael Harner or Andrew Weil are pretty much packaging and selling spirituality as a concept separate from religion. I don't know that any one or combination of these folks have enough penetration in the marketplace (especially outside of the Western hemisphere) to have any real impact.

I don't know that there actually is an answer here ... I come from the perspective that humans are naturally divisive ... they seek out conflict whenever possible, and base that conflict on some observable or imagined difference. (race, politics, religion) ... there's always an us vs. them mentality ... our warriors are superior to your warriors, our gods can kick your god's ass, The Eagles rule and the Giants Suck. (Frankly, I don't much care about sports, but it is a modern expression of the warrior spirit in a lot of ways. Of course there's a lot more money involved.)

I like this discussion. Here it's only 12:30am on Christmas Eve, and, yeah, not much going on either.

So I've been thinking about this in the 5 minutes or whatever it takes for me to brush my teeth and get ready for bed, and I have a late night theory for you - so obviously, it's incredibly substantial. Basically, all major religions boil down to convincing people to be nice to other people. This idea has to be constantly repackaged for different regions, cultures and eras.

The problem is that people aren't going to believe what you say unless you wow them. So religions were forced to become more and more inventive and spectacular or else they wouldn't have anyone in their flock. Without a following, religions would fail. The fabric of society needs something like religion or else it gets torn apart. So the society's religion becomes key to its existence, and it ends up becoming intertwined with cultural identity and, in modern times, nationalism.

Western societies, however, are moving away from religion. At the same time, Western Europe is moving away from nationalism with the creation of the EU. I think there's a connection between these two trends, and I think the result will be a transcendence of religion - just like there will be a transcendence of nationalism. I think what we're seeing today is the last sputterings of religious bickering, and I think the eventual goal of globalization is to equalize.

I realize there's a lot of holes in this logic, and its probably been said a thousand times, but I'm too sleepy to notice right now.

[slang]

(slang prays quietly for god to have mercy on Hermit for his "evil thoughts" )

[jaguar]

Only 8:42 christmas eve here.

On second thought, it kind of HAS been done ... A Course in Miracles, The Celestine Prophecy, and every book written by Dipak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, Michael Harner or Andrew Weil are pretty much packaging and selling spirituality as a concept separate from religion. I don't know that any one or combination of these folks have enough penetration in the marketplace (especially outside of the Western hemisphere) to have any real impact.

I don't know that there actually is an answer here ... I come from the perspective that humans are naturally divisive ... they seek out conflict whenever possible, and base that conflict on some observable or imagined difference. (race, politics, religion) ... there's always an us vs. them mentality ... our warriors are superior to your warriors, our gods can kick your god's ass, The Eagles rule and the Giants Suck. (Frankly, I don't much care about sports, but it is a modern expression of the warrior spirit in a lot of ways. Of course there's a lot more money involved.)

I can't say i'm familiar with any of them =( The question for me is whether it is about spirituality or a particualr form of spirituality. Personally i think the only way a shool should have anything to do with the teaching of religion would be to get pretty much every religious and spiritual text in a room, with a big sign over the door saying enter at your own peril and dump the kids in there for a few hours.

[juju]

I think that religion's sole purpose is to answer unanswerable questions. People being nice to each other is just a nice side benefit. See, some people just can't stand not knowing the answer to some questions. Rather than face the uncertainty and fear than comes with not knowing, they just make something up and call it the truth. It's very comforting to have all the answers. Many people aren't so much concerned with the truth as they are with eliminating their doubt and fear as quckly as possible (very uncomfortable things to have).

[Radar]

Let's take a look at what the Religion clause actually means instead of what activist groups tell us it means, shall we?

Yes, let’s.

The founding father’s wanted total and complete separation of church and state. They wanted ALL RELIGIONS completely out of government and government out of ALL RELIGIONS! The United States was first among nations to adopt a secular Constitution. The founders who wrote the U.S. Constitution wanted citizens to be free to support the church of their choice, or no religion at all. Our Constitution was very purposefully written to be a godless document, whose only references to religion are exclusionary.

It is vital to buttress the Jeffersonian "wall of separation between church and state" which has served our nation so well.

The president doesn’t have to swear on a bible, nor does anyone who is going to testify in a court of law. All they must do is affirm they are telling the truth. And any mention of the bible, god, or prayers in any official government capacity is a clear and direct violation of the 1st amendment. That includes in oaths, public prayers in government buildings, putting the word “god” on our currency, etc. Chaplains aren’t supposed to be of any particular denomination and many people would like to pray before they are sent to die in an illegal war to defend some other country so I can see a military chaplain. The congressional chaplain is probably so they can pray for forgiveness before they rape the American public, etc. Again if this is non-denominational, done privately, and not funded with public money I have no argument.

Let’s look at what the founding fathers thought about Christianity.


Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.


John Adams

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Thomas Paine

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."

"Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)."

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."

"The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."


James Madison

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

George Washington

” The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion”

Establishment of Religion refers to forcing one single ruling religion onto the people

Yet another fallacious argument from you. Establishment of religion refers to one or several religions and whether you contend the 10 commandments represents 1 or a thousand religions it still represents religions and thus has no place in government.

Our courts are supposed to decide and interpret LAW

Another fallacious argument. The courts aren’t to “interpret” anything, especially the supreme court. They are to settle disputes among the states and to UPHOLD AND DEFEND the constitution. They don’t define it, and aren’t authorities over it. They answer to the constitution. They routinely make unconstitutional rulings for what they deem to be in “national interest” despite not having this authority. They look for ways around the constitution rather than defending it. And nowhere in their description of powers are they granted permission to “interpret” the constitution. The constitution doesn’t require interpretation. It’s written in simple English, not Swahili. It means what it says; nothing more; nothing less.

The entire constitution and declaration of independence were carefully written to be secular documents that made a clear wall of separation between all things religious (from any religion or from several) and all things government. Only later did religious zealots like the temperance movement put the word “god” on our money despite it not belonging there.

Donating a copy of the 10 commandments to be posted at a courthouse isn’t an exercise of your religious freedom. Nice try mental midget. Praying is an exercise of religion, trying to post your religious doctrine in places of government business is an attempt to force your religion down the throats of other Americans.

Neither the American government, nor the laws of America are based on Judeo-Christian principles, morality, or beliefs. And they never will be.

The founding fathers created America so that Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Diests, and even Atheists would be equal under the law and so they could be free to practice their religion without government interference and that they could have their government free from religious interference. They had seen Quakers burn women at the stake and people being arrested for not believing in the bible in north America and seen even worse injustices and atrocities in Europe due to the mixing of church and state. This is why they created a secular nation where people could have the freedom of religion, but also the freedom from it.

[Radar]

Here's are a couple of my favorite websites for those of you who want a laugh and have a minute:

http://jhuger.com/kisshank.mv

http://www.jesusdressup.com

[jaguar]

Talking of education: 7 US States cut back the school week to 4 days

'Nuff said really...

[99 44/100% pure]

Originally posted by jaguar
Talking of education: 7 US States cut back the school week to 4 days

'Nuff said really...

This got my attention. Toward the middle of the article, it points out that "The tradeoff is that students in the four-day system have to go to school 7.5 hours per day to get the same amount of instruction that the standard five-day, six-hour schedule provides. That means even 6-year-old first-graders have to be in class from 8:15 a.m. to 4:15 p.m. each day."

So, no, the students in these districts are not losing 20% of their instructional time. In fact, this may be a real boon to families with two parents working, or single parents, who have to come up with before-and-after-school care for their kids. Perhaps this move will be more succesful and widepread than the push for year-round school has been.

[tw]

Originally posted by juju
I think that religion's sole purpose is to answer unanswerable questions.

From this (and next) weeks The Economist:

Extracts from a spoof letter, widely posted on the Internet, to Laura Schlessinger, a (Jewish) fundamentalist broadcaster

DEAR Dr Laura, I have learned a great deal from your show...When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

Lev. 25:44 states that I may possess slaves...provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

[Cairo]

Jaguar -
*Rolls eyes* First you say,"What the article says is yes, the ozone hole got smaller this year, due to extremely unusual weather conditions. That is all."
Then you say,"...the fact that we are responsible for the severe damage we have inflicted on it."
So...you disagree with NASA, or you think that we control the weather! Either way you're wrong. If we control the weather, why are the forecasters always wrong? And why don't we just turn on the sprinklers over drought areas? And whoever is in charge of my area's temp. dial...keep it set on 72, K? No more of this 102 in the summer and 32 in the winter!(end of sarcasm)
Hmmmm, "True scientists have no faith in science."
So by your own admission your "basic scientific fact" isn't a fact because science keeps evolving with new data that leads elsewhere. You refuted it yourself!

Hermit22 -
Yeah, Jaguar did a well enough job if you totally ignore NASA and common sense! Ha! *weighing the options here* Hmmmm, who's more credible? Jaguar or NASA, NASA or Jaguar??? I rest my case!
Actually I meant to type $200 Million dollars per year, it was late and I rushed past the "00"...
Hey, I actually made the school system look good by my typo!

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa043001a.htm

I don't say things out of my ass, my recall may be a little off but the message is the same and I can back it up....but idiots insist on finding that out about me the hard way! I don't mind, it's rather fun to watch the idiots reduced to "it's a waste of my time to argue with you!" Which happens when they have no argument!

Radar -
Still regurgitating the same crap in a longer, more irrational way revealing your Tyrannical thought process, I see....You are spinning like a top, my friend! Barfing out talking points from activist websites only works if you know what you are talking about, trouble is, when you do learn what you are talking about you realize the talking points are WRONG!
Address the "make no law" issue, address the "not prohibiting an individual's free exercise thereof" issue, address the "courts are making law from the bench" issue...all from my previous post!

1. No, the term separation of church and state is not in the Constitution, thus cannot be judged by our courts...unless they are "interpreting" the Constitution. Separation of church and state is an ideal that makes sure the Government can not overtake and control the church as our Founders saw Britain and other Monarchys do. The Constitution and Declaration are NOT Godless documents, they both acknowledge and recognize Religion/God. The Constitution not only grants citizens the Right to support the church of their choice, but also the Right to "free exercise thereof"...meaning not to prohibit an individuals actions, thoughts, and words concerning Religion.
2. I am not Christian, and do not follow the teachings of Jesus...so I agree with Jefferson, somewhat. But who am I to unconstitutionally demand that those who do be prohibited?...The Taliban?!!!!
You see, the difference between you and me is my America offers a choice. Your America prohibits all except your belief! In my America individuals don't have to mention the Bible, God, or prayers...but they can if they want(as Constitutionally protected in the no prohibitting clause), your America is clearly UNConstitutional!
3. I said our courts decide and interpret LAW, not the Constitution. You are interpreting the "Congress shall make no law..." part by insisting that Constitutionality extends beyond "making law" when it doesn't!
4. Webster's definition of exercise: The act of bringing into play or realizing in action.
Any form of action is "exercising"... so don't put limits that are UNConstitutional, Mr. Taliban-man!
We the People own those buildings, and I believe all Religions should donate to them. That encourages a multi-religion nation.
5. The Government has not interfered until it makes law...YOU, on the otherhand, are UNConstitutionally interfering by ramming a Godless Communist, no choice America down the throats of 90+% of American citizens who want to have a choice!

[Cam]

I think listening to radar and Cairo argue has been the highlight of my night of being online. This is fun

[wolf]

Its better than tennis

[Cam]

I don't know wolf in tennis at least the players attempt to change strategies when there getting their asses kicked.