continue Religion debate to infinity here

[Cairo]

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to derail the Iraq thread...so I will reply to your posts here instead. If I accidentally leave out someone, please remind me, O.K....

slang -
Hi slang, I would be classified as Judaic...
and you?

Cam -
Not true, interpretation changes the meaning, something the book of prophecies are forbidden to do. Even in individual conversing where interpretation is often necessary, it's a bad idea.
Example: Say the word 'helicopter' is not found in another language and you want to explain that "He flew away in a helicopter." The word to interpret 'helicopter' is 'bird', if you say "He flew away on a bird." the natives will think you are nuts!
The Torah leaves the untranslatable words as they are in Hebrew, and you can tell by the rest of the sentence and the whole paragraph what the meaning is. Example: The Hebrew word 'nflms' in the Torah is written as "There were nflms in the Earth in those days..." But the newer Bibles interpreted 'nflms' to 'giants' and was written by man as "There were giants in the Earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
'Giants' is not only wrong and changes the meaning, but it is a huge No-No to any God fearing person.
The words in that paragraph that are translated make clear that 'nflms' meant 'those who descended to Earth from Heaven.'
There is another where 'navel' is interpreted where the paragraph clearly describes the woman's private part below the navel.
When man adds or takes away to/from God's words, the book becomes man's words and will...to me.

juju -
I believe global warming is occurring, but NOT because of anything man has done. It's a natural cycle of self-correction the Earth goes through, like the Ice Age was(were the animals back then driving SUV's and polluting up the air too???)
Remember, the "hole" in the O-zone is shrinking as we speak because the Glaciers are melting, because of global warming.

jaguar -
Global warming is a fact as well.
And, as a parent it is solely MY RIGHT to teach my child about life as I see fit...not as you or the school sees fit. In fact, the schools have been teaching social awareness for some time now, and they've done such a bang-up job of it...we now have kids that can't handle failure or losing so they kill themselves or others, we now have 9 year olds getting busted for possession of pot, and we now have 10 year old girls getting gang-raped in class or turning up pregnant!!!! WHAT A SUCCESS! The school system can't even get reading,writing, and math right, and YOU trust them with your child's psychi? You don't have children, do you?

headsplice -
It always helps if you actually read the conversation before jumping in to barf out vomit that nobody stated!
The Torah was translated word for word from third century B.C.E. to present. The Torah I am reading was translated by men who understood the wrath they would bring upon themselves if they added or took away from the meaning of God's words or will.
Neat, Huh?!!
As for "knowing" and "truly understanding" God?
Bringing this down to the human level, to show that faith in God is no different from anything else in our humble lives... you may read all the books by Stephen Hawking, but do you "know" and "truly understand" him? Also, you most definately spent your whole life depending on your mother, father, sister, brothers, but do you ever really "know" and "truly understand" them?
Nope! We can't even understand each other!

undertoad -
I completely agree with you that a well-rounded child is produced by exposure to every side of every issue, so they can make their own informed opinion...in High School and College. At 7 years of age, I don't care how carefully they chose their words to remain diplomatic and all inclusive...
the only thing my 7 year old took away from that lesson was "the world is going to end." And that is so wrong on so many levels! And it's also a flat out lie, I'm not paying the school to lie to my child.
These contradictions jump from Old Testament to New Testament, then from revised to some newer books...
these have been re-written by man and are man's words. Why does it surprise you that man contradicts himself?
The Torah is understandable to all...after all, I understand it!

radar -
Ignorance is bliss to you, no doubt!
Click ALL the links, Einstein...the ark? Sodom and Gomorrah? Ring a bell?
The 10 Commandments are Judaic and Christian, and the laws of our land throughout History were based on them. If the Religious symbol is also an Historical symbol and it represents two or more separate churches, it IS CONSTITUTIONAL!
George Washington was a Free-Mason, not really Christian...he was more of a Diest than anything.
I never said our Government was founded on Christian Religion...I said this Country(We the People) was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.
You only hear what you wish to hear, don't ya?

[slang]

slang -
Hi slang, I would be classified as Judaic...
and you?

That is a very good question and the answer is christian....of some sort. I attend a Presbatarian church service maybe 2 times a year and own one bible. I look at it because my cousin gave it to me and it reminds me of him and his family. I read it once or twice. It isn't interesting reading in my opinion.

The idea that there is some universal life force that gives a rats ass about me and what I do is appealing in some respects. The notion hasnt caught fire for me though. I do believe that the bible is full of very wise advice and attempts to provide a template for a person's life. I don't read or study it though. Maybe I'm missing out on something big or maybe my time would be better spent rearranging my sock drawer. I havent been inspired up to this point.

I did attend a church in Mi that was appealing but havent seen anything like it here in Pa. That church was full of younger people and whole tone of the service was interesting and entertaining instead of the ol' stand up...sit down...listen to an old man read from the bible routine. I dont like going to church. For that matter, I dont like going outside much, but I'm not agoraphobic. When Jesus or god can come chat with me online in my tiny comfortable office here, I'm open. As for the boring standard service, no thank you.

So, I guess that would put me in the unreligious catagory.

And, I'm very glad to have you here, I've never met a Judaic non-liberal, muchless a female one.

[jaguar]

Global warming is a fact as well.
And, as a parent it is solely MY RIGHT to teach my child about life as I see fit...not as you or the school sees fit. In fact, the schools have been teaching social awareness for some time now, and they've done such a bang-up job of it...we now have kids that can't handle failure or losing so they kill themselves or others, we now have 9 year olds getting busted for possession of pot, and we now have 10 year old girls getting gang-raped in class or turning up pregnant!!!! WHAT A SUCCESS! The school system can't even get reading,writing, and math right, and YOU trust them with your child's psychi? You don't have children, do you?

*sighs* Did i ever say you didn't have the right? Just as you are free to teach your poor, poor child whatever you want, I am entitled to think your opinions are farcical. Thank you for pointing out some of the worst cases you could find, I hope they make you feel better. I'm a product of the generation you're talking about a guess what, for ever fucked up kid there is usually a fucked up home environment. it's also a pretty low number, we all just got our VCE results back, I'm surrounded by and am one of thousands of happy, bright kids going into top uni places, the leaders and innovators of the future. On the other hand our socialist system is better funded than yours. What worries me is your jingoistic hyperbolic attitude, your blind fear and extreme examples point to a deeply coloured view of the world, I sincerely hope one day you can broaden your sadly myopic view of the world.

BTW I’m not sure if you’re part of those failed by your ailing school system you so viciously attack or whether we’re talking at cross purposes but don’t you mean psyche?

I'll let juju correct you on global warming.

Sorry headsplice but I *had* to jump in here. *You* may not understand Stephen Hawking, but some of us do. That though, is beside the point. Your rather inarticulate argument seems to be the old concept that science is a faith because most of us don't understand it. A true scientist has no faith in science, he merely follows the currant most likely theory (all science is theory) until a more likely one come along, the rules of physics might be overturned tomorrow and a scientist would have no problem with this. Science is dynamic and is not faith, religion is static. Science is theory based upon interpretation of the best possible evidence today, religion is faith in the intangible and abstract. For many science I agree is a form of faith, but science itself cannot be compared to religion, nor can people for that matter.

[Cam]

The Torah leaves the untranslatable words as they are in Hebrew, and you can tell by the rest of the sentence and the whole paragraph what the meaning is. Example: The Hebrew word 'nflms' in the Torah is written as "There were nflms in the Earth in those days..." But the newer Bibles interpreted 'nflms' to 'giants' and was written by man as "There were giants in the Earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

So pretty much, what you’re trying to say is only someone who can read and understand Hebrew should be able to just pick up the bible and read it. Or else they just have to interpret what the words mean themselves if no English translation was available.
I'm sure that's exactly what God had in mind when he had men write down his word.
But like I said before this discussion is worthless as changing someones mind about religion is futile.

[Cam]

And, as a parent it is solely MY RIGHT to teach my child about life as I see fit...not as you or the school sees fit.

I think that is the attitude that makes drug dealers kids drug dealers.

[Cam]

A true scientist has no faith in science, he merely follows the currant most likely theory (all science is theory) until a more likely one come along, the rules of physics might be overturned tomorrow and a scientist would have no problem with this.

Jag I want you to know you gained a ton of respect for saying that. It amazing to me how many of my friends try and argue that theories are not set in stone and that there is no possible way that anything can change them. That's one problem I have with most college physics classes here is they put so much emphasis on the math that they fail to teach the theories behind them, let alone discuss and debate them.

[Radar]

If the Religious symbol is also an Historical symbol and it represents two or more separate churches, it IS CONSTITUTIONAL!

Wrong. Posting any religious symbol (and the 10 commandments is ONLY religious and not historical) whether it represents one religion or several is unconstitutional and thus illegal because it would ammount to the government respecting an establishment or even a couple of them. The government can't legally support any religions whether it's one or several. They would also be disrespecting all non judeo-christian religions. The government can't legally put any religions over others.

America is not a Christian nation and never was.

I never said our Government was founded on Christian Religion...I said this Country(We the People) was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

Incorrect as usual; None of the laws in America or our government was based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. Even our declaration of rights has nothing to do with Judeo-Christian beliefs. Our founding fathers believed in NATURAL RIGHTS like Locke described. They also believed in religious freedom, whether that is freedom of religion or from religion. This means they knew that people were born with rights and they got them from nature. But whether they happened to believe in the monotheistic god portrayed by Christians and Jews, or any of the different gods believed in by Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, or even Satan worshipers, they could assume their rights came from that entity as long as they got the concept of inalienable rights that aren't given to us by government and can't be taken away by government across.

The ark and sodom and gohmorra haven't been found either. Wow you're such a fart smeller.....er....smart feller. No I was right the first time.

[Cam]

The ark and sodom and gohmorra haven't been found either. Wow you're such a fart smeller.....er....smart feller. No I was right the first time.

OMG that was just tooooo funny.

[juju]

Originally posted by jaguar
I'll let juju correct you on global warming.

Actually, her assesment looks valid to me. She didn't say that global warming isn't happening, she said that it is just part of the natural cycle of the Earth. I don't know if this is true or not, but I have heard that there is a lack of long-term temperature data on the Earth. Is there some sort of centuries-long cycle that we're unaware of? We just don't know.

I wouldn't call what they're teaching a lie, though. There is significant evidence to support what the schools are teaching.

[jaguar]

Cam - thanks =)
My interest in science has always been in the theory, not the application, for me that is kind of boring in comparison thus i end up dealing with allot more theroy than most. Secondly these kind of arguements always bring up the 'science is a faith too' misconception.

Juju - While there is no doubt that the earth's temperature has fluctuated significantly in over the past thousands of years and gone far higher than it is today there is one key difference. It's never gone up anywhere near this fast. The changes have been far, far slower. To argue that pumping the amount of shit we do into the atmosphere is going to have little or no effect to me at least seems very much like burying your head in the sand. This evidence comes from the same source as the longer term temperature information we have - ice cores. Thus while the temperature does fluctuate, there I extremely strong evidence to support the claim that we are having a significant and detrimental effect on the heath of our environment. I guess in the long term the argument is that as the environment changes, so will it's inhabitants (Darwin in action). But the pace of change we are inflicting on the environment is far shorter than the timeframes evolution tends to work over, thus even in a larger timescale it is hard to claim what we are doing is either good for the environment or part of a natural cycle which therefore has no detrimental effect.

To apply what i was talking about before - the best evidence i am aware of points to what i've stated above, but it is still science and thus must be taught as theory not fact.

America is not a Christian nation and never was.

Ohh, another fallacy. Oh boy, i agree with Radar, shoot me now.

What is actually happening here is what lots of chrsitians do - the arguement that ebcause a moral or teaching is part of the christian faith, whereever it pops up it is a christian moral and cannot just be the product of an entirely non-christian thought process. The christian attempt at a monopoly on morality in effect. It's an arguement i take particular distaste to because the corollary usually implied is that you cannot have 'chrsitian' moral without being christian.

[slang]

Originally posted by juju
Is there some sort of centuries-long cycle that we're unaware of? We just don't know.

This was a fair representation of the situation as I know it. Many environmental/anti-capitalist groups state for fact that GlWarm is a direct result of auto and industrial exhausts. There are just as many and just as credible scientists that believe it isn't happening or isn't caused by man.

[hermit22]

Actually, there is one point - the idea that the ozone hole is shrinking.

Just last year, the ozone hole over the South Pole extended into the Southern tip of Chile. Shrinking, huh?

All that's happened is that the rate of expansion has shrunk. We assume this is because people are a little bit more environmentally conscious, but we (environmentalists) don't really know - causality and all that.

As for global warming - there is so much about weather and temperature cycles of the earth that we don't know that we can't say definitively whether or not we are causing the rise in temperature. But it's stupid to assume no responsibility, and to go on as if modern civilization has nothing to do with it - if only for the fact that we might be right.

I think, however, that Cairo's example of her son brings up a very important consideration - do we tell our children about the problems we've caused? If not, when do we let them know? And will it matter either way?

[jaguar]

I shoudl also probably point out that like many activist groups the environment groups (which IMHO has lost all direction, the really innovative stuff and the more through solutions are coming out of the alt. globalist (not the anti, they're a bunch of idiots) movements now) overstate the evidence, to the detriment of their cause.

[hermit22]

Originally posted by slang


This was a fair representation of the situation as I know it. Many environmental/anti-capitalist groups state for fact that GlWarm is a direct result of auto and industrial exhausts. There are just as many and just as credible scientists that believe it isn't happening or isn't caused by man.

Every one of those scientists that I know of have been thoroughly discredited. The problem with many of them is that they have reached the conclusion before the experiment - and not from an educated guess, but from a poliical conviction. This means there's a tendency to overlook data or give less weight to variables that will not prove your hypothesis.

It happens on both sides of the fence.

Also, it is inaccurate to group environmental groups in with anti-capitalist ones. Some of the most radical environmental groups are anti-civilization, and some may be anti-capitalist, but they don't represent the mainstream nor the broad spectrum of such groups.

[slang]

Originally posted by hermit22


Every one of those scientists that I know of have been thoroughly discredited. The problem with many of them is that they have reached the conclusion before the experiment - and not from an educated guess, but from a poliical conviction. This means there's a tendency to overlook data or give less weight to variables that will not prove your hypothesis.

It happens on both sides of the fence.

Also, it is inaccurate to group environmental groups in with anti-capitalist ones. Some of the most radical environmental groups are anti-civilization, and some may be anti-capitalist, but they don't represent the mainstream nor the broad spectrum of such groups.

I just had and idea that solves there problems. The federal government needs to create a tax deduction for the purchase price of a Segway scooter.

(slang thinks to self: Al Sharpton, Segway vehicles, firearms of any type, and black helicopters are relevant to any topic or discussion.)