FU*K!

[Undertoad]

(It's flame time!)

We drive bigger cars here because we live bigger lives here.

We live bigger lives here, because we are ornery John Wayne motherfuckers who left the countries we came from because they were too controlling and unadventurous.

Our ancestors saw promise and most of them risked their lives to get it. After 10 generations of these kind of people coming in, we developed into the most productive country in the world, showing the rest of you bastards how to get shit done.

Using up all the oil in our cars. Fuck you, we invented cars. Seventy years before the invention of the car, you worked out how to use rails to get around... and that was good enough for you. Seventy years, and it never occurred to you that the only thing keeping you to the rails was the rails.

Using up all the oil. Fuck you, we developed all the technology to retrieve and process and use that oil. Oil was around since the dawn of civilization and all you thought it was good for was getting things dirty and greasy. If it wasn't for us you'd be running on coal and steam, and if you like we can talk about how much coal it takes to generate steam and why London was considered foggy during the coal era, and what an environmental fuckover coal is, and how long it would not last if it was still the primary fuel.

You fucks in Britain should not have 4x4s. You do not deserve them, because you do not go off-road in them and you Never Would. You live small, cautious lives. Look at Jinx in her pics. She is doing stuff you would never dream of doing. When was the last time you tied something to the top of your car in order to have fun? Fucking never. Your gas taxes are so high you can't afford the wind drag. And why are your gas taxes so high? Wrong, it's not for some sort of special thoughtful higher purpose. Your higher purpose would still have you on coal, fucking up the environment. It's because your entire economy is set up around your government deeply controlling you and making sure you continue to live these small lives.

You're always welcome to come here and see how big lives work. If you do, unless you cross on the QE2, 99% of the technology that would bring you here was invented here. Chances are the technology that will replace oil will be invented here too. Big lives bring about big thinking and that's why your vehicles do not run on coal and steam, restricted to where the rails are laid.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to load 200 lbs of bass gear into my 17mpg truck and drive 25 miles across country to rehearse.

Edit: rehearsal cancelled today

[Happy Monkey]

We drive bigger cars here because they were exempt from fuel-efficiency standards, and American manufacturers didn't want to compete with the Japanese on technology.

[Undertoad]

We drive bigger cars here because people want bigger cars here. No amount of government interference will outstrip market demand. Partly because we elect the government, but more because market and cultural forces are more powerful than government forces in this country.

Edit: I drive a big Japanese truck

[Happy Monkey]

Once the American manufacturers pushed the SUVs into popularity, the Japanese were perfectly happy to enter the market.

[lookout123]

the SUVs (although overdone now) were a pretty nice solution for those that had need of something like a station wagon, but didn't like the looks, a minivan - but didn't like the idea of the van, a pickup truck for those that like to get off road - but want to take the family. really pretty handy, if you think about it.
of course, good ideas can be taken too far. seriously - how many soccer moms are carting around there 2 kids in an Excursion?

but in the end, so what? if they can afford it, they like it, and they don't mind the gas bill, why does it bother anyone? people drive what they want - and they should. and people who bitch and moan about SUVs? get a fucking life.

[Undertoad]

Another reason the Japanese did not want to enter the big vehicle market in the 60s-70s is because shipping costs were higher then.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The manufacturers didn't push them into popularity anymore than the TV manufacturers pushed big screens into popularity. They provided what the people wanted, a replacement for the very practical station wagon that had fallen into disfavor for being uncool, followed by the minivan that had become soccer-mom uncool.

I won't dispute the roll of advertising/marketing, but the bottom line is still the public makes the choice with their dollars.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The manufacturers didn't push them into popularity ...
I won't dispute the roll of advertising/marketing,

You just did.

but the bottom line is still the public makes the choice with their dollars.

Of course. But if this was purely demand based, then Jeep would have been the #1 car in the US before the SUV push, having a virtual monopoly of the market. The manufacturers created much of the demand.

[Undertoad]

Manufacturers create cars. Markets create demand.

[lumberjim]

the ford explorer has been the best selling suv for a long time. practically since it came out in 1991. this is due, in my opinion to the supply being there to support the demand. jeep has made suv's longer, but the cherokee was too small to satisfy a family of more than 4, and the grand cherokee didnt come out until late in 93. the explorer and the s-10 blazer were well entrenched by then. jeep has never rivalled ford's numbers. mainly, i think because of production amounts. also government fleet deals.

what i'm stumbling around saying is that you two (hm&ut) are both right. there has to be a demand, but if there is no supply, the demand is filled in other ways. if there were no SUV's you'd still see a lot of conversion vans.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

(It's flame time!)

Well that was just totally fucking brilliant.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

You just did.

No I didn't. Manufacturers know which way the wind blows but they don't make the wind, only adjust their sails accordingly. Advertising is to grab their share of the pie. Enough of it could push the market to irrational exuberance, but doesn't have the power to create the market. They only wish they had that power.

Of course. But if this was purely demand based, then Jeep would have been the #1 car in the US before the SUV push, having a virtual monopoly of the market. The manufacturers created much of the demand.

The pre-SUV Jeeps were pretty hard core. Most soccer moms would not be happy with the ride or effort involved.
The maintenance schedule was also pretty rigorous. Lots of heavy duty whirring and clicking bits that had to be serviced regularly, especially on sand driven Jeeps. My landlord had to repack all four wheel bearings after every surf fishing trip. He wasn't being paranoid, experience had proven he couldn't do it every other trip.

After a couple of weekend interruptions, my fishing partner would spend most of a day, during the week, going over the Cherokee to insure a trouble free weekend trip. And this was not sandy surf fishing, but fresh water fishing with mostly paved surfaces except launching the boat.

The growth of the SUV market cause a great deal of development in new design parts with more reliability/less maintenance. It also brought a better ride and less effort.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Manufacturers create cars. Markets create demand.

And marketers manipulate markets.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by wolf

Well that was just totally fucking brilliant.

And long overdue.

[zippyt]

I agree , well said UT , Well said !!!!!