Disillusionment - Page 4

wolf · 12-05-2003, 12:15 AM

My friend's five year old daughter just drove her three year old sister to tears by threatening her with the "Naughty List."

Amazing. They barely have a grasp of the English Language, but to use it to such effect ...

juju · 12-05-2003, 12:46 AM

Like I said, in this particular case, I'm not so much worried about the disillusionment as I am with not straying from my moral system.

juju · 12-05-2003, 01:12 AM

Whatever happened to building trust in a relationship?

Relationships DO still have to be built, don't they?

tikat · 12-05-2003, 03:26 PM

I like perth's approach best. If I could make a list of instructions for my next incarnation's* parents, I'd put that in there.

(*speaking hypothetically, of course.)

BrianR · 12-07-2003, 09:45 AM

I think it's best to allow children to believe until they find out for sure. Then you explain to them that if they think of Santa as a real person with the sleigh and flying reindeer and all, then no, there is no Santa Claus. But if they think of Santa as a concept; a metaphor for the spirit of giving and goodwill, then yes, there IS a Santa. As long as people keep that spirit alive, Santa will live too.

This assumes that the child is capable of thinking on this level, of course.

And then, when they have children, you can tell them about the three stages of Santa...

1) You believe in Santa Claus.
2) You do not believe in Santa Claus.
3) You *are* Santa Claus.

And there you have it!

Brian

xoxoxoBruce · 12-07-2003, 10:16 AM

Don't forget #4. You look like Santa Claus.

xoxoxoBruce · 12-07-2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju
Whatever happened to building trust in a relationship?

Relationships DO still have to be built, don't they?

Absolutely. My father promised to kick my ass if he was displeased, and I trusted him to keep his word.
Juju, you are in the process of making yourself a raving god damn lunatic. The health and welfare of your daughter does not hinge on Santa Claus or any other single issue so stop over analysing every little thing.
You are a kind and decent person and your daughter will emulate that. The love and hugs and concern for her will mold your relationship more than any conscious decisions about the day to day. I'm sure you'll do a great job.

juju · 12-07-2003, 11:00 AM

I'm not worried about it at all. Like I said, I already agreed to go with my wife's decision. Or, maybe we'll go with some sort of compromise. I'm sure we'll go with the flow. I know it will turn out okay regardless of the direction we go.

This sort of stuff MUST be overanalysed, though. If we don't think about this stuff, then we're basically just flying blind when it comes to the morals we're teaching our kids.

This thread is an intellectual and moral exercise. I'm an introspective person. Introspective folk like me are of the belief that you can't overanalyse anything. It's just how we grow as people.

The Santa thing is just <i>one</i> example of many other potential lying situations. Thinking this through means I will be more centered when other similar situations (that one can't plan for) come up.

xoxoxoBruce · 12-07-2003, 04:31 PM

When the ones you can't plan for come up you'll go with gut feeling which is dictated by who you are and your core beliefs. Then you can beat yourself up afterward.

juju · 12-07-2003, 05:57 PM

Yeah, but I'm constantly thinking about, challenging, and researching who I am and what my core beliefs are. :)

Whit · 12-08-2003, 07:26 AM

      Speaking from my own experience, raising a kid is easy. You just have to remember that kids learn by example. No matter what you tell them they'll base their own choices off the examples of your action. For me what has been really amazing is the boy. As I'm not his father by blood and he had several bad examples he had been following before I was in his life. Since I've been in his life more and more he's begun following mine. The change is amazing.
      On a related note, the Santa thing is easy, a footnote really. When it gets tough is when a kid you have no rights to (because he's technically not yours) starts asking to be allowed to move in with you. His mom doesn't know he's talking asking about it, that's a landmine I'm waiting to have go boom on me.

juju · 12-08-2003, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whit
On a larger scale a lot of what we are told as kids falls apart. I think the teens tend to be the age most of us go through this. Though, most do stop believing in Santa before that. I look back on that time as being good and developmental. However, I find myself working hard to not set my kids up for the pain of it. Trying to raise them without a lot of illusions to have fall apart, if you will.

So, what kind of illusions are you referring to here?

Whit · 12-08-2003, 04:02 PM

      Well, take the happy ending idea. Most of kids are raised watching Disney movies and similar stuff. The ending is always happy whether a happy ending was earned or not. The little mermaid for example, in the original story she lost her soul. Disney rewrote it of course. So it went from being a cautionary tale of being a disobedient child to a tale that teaches disobedience as a way to become happy. The idea that everything simply works out is crap. It has to be earned, but that's not what kids are taught by TV and movies.
      Now I'm the first to say that it's the parents job to nut up and raise their kids instead of putting them in front of the tv. Still, there's no getting past the influence of TV and movies unless you throw away your TV and homeschool the kids. I hope this makes sense. I'm running a fever so I'm not sure...

juju · 12-08-2003, 04:31 PM

Still? Do you think it might be the flu?

lumberjim · 12-08-2003, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whit
      Well, take the happy ending idea. Most of kids are raised watching Disney movies and similar stuff. The ending is always happy whether a happy ending was earned or not. The little mermaid for example, in the original story she lost her soul. Disney rewrote it of course. So it went from being a cautionary tale of being a disobedient child to a tale that teaches disobedience as a way to become happy. The idea that everything simply works out is crap. It has to be earned, but that's not what kids are taught by TV and movies.
      Now I'm the first to say that it's the parents job to nut up and raise their kids instead of putting them in front of the tv. Still, there's no getting past the influence of TV and movies unless you throw away your TV and homeschool the kids. I hope this makes sense. I'm running a fever so I'm not sure...

fucking disney movies......i like the grim fairy tales better......much gorrier

Quote:

gorrier

dave would like to point out that this is not a word.

12-05-2003, 12:15 AM	#46
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	My friend's five year old daughter just drove her three year old sister to tears by threatening her with the "Naughty List." Amazing. They barely have a grasp of the English Language, but to use it to such effect ... __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

12-07-2003, 09:45 AM	#50
BrianR Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,338	My take on Santa Claus I think it's best to allow children to believe until they find out for sure. Then you explain to them that if they think of Santa as a real person with the sleigh and flying reindeer and all, then no, there is no Santa Claus. But if they think of Santa as a concept; a metaphor for the spirit of giving and goodwill, then yes, there IS a Santa. As long as people keep that spirit alive, Santa will live too. This assumes that the child is capable of thinking on this level, of course. And then, when they have children, you can tell them about the three stages of Santa... 1) You believe in Santa Claus. 2) You do not believe in Santa Claus. 3) You are Santa Claus. And there you have it! Brian __________________ Never be afraid to tell the world who you are. -- Anonymous

12-07-2003, 10:16 AM	#51
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Don't forget #4. You look like Santa Claus. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

12-07-2003, 04:31 PM	#54
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	When the ones you can't plan for come up you'll go with gut feeling which is dictated by who you are and your core beliefs. Then you can beat yourself up afterward. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

12-08-2003, 07:26 AM	#56
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	Speaking from my own experience, raising a kid is easy. You just have to remember that kids learn by example. No matter what you tell them they'll base their own choices off the examples of your action. For me what has been really amazing is the boy. As I'm not his father by blood and he had several bad examples he had been following before I was in his life. Since I've been in his life more and more he's begun following mine. The change is amazing.       On a related note, the Santa thing is easy, a footnote really. When it gets tough is when a kid you have no rights to (because he's technically not yours) starts asking to be allowed to move in with you. His mom doesn't know he's talking asking about it, that's a landmine I'm waiting to have go boom on me. __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

12-05-2003, 12:46 AM	#47
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Like I said, in this particular case, I'm not so much worried about the disillusionment as I am with not straying from my moral system.

12-05-2003, 01:12 AM	#48
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Whatever happened to building trust in a relationship? Relationships DO still have to be built, don't they?

12-05-2003, 03:26 PM	#49
tikat Paramour of Paradigm Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 42	I like perth's approach best. If I could make a list of instructions for my next incarnation's* parents, I'd put that in there. (*speaking hypothetically, of course.)

12-07-2003, 11:00 AM	#53
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	I'm not worried about it at all. Like I said, I already agreed to go with my wife's decision. Or, maybe we'll go with some sort of compromise. I'm sure we'll go with the flow. I know it will turn out okay regardless of the direction we go. This sort of stuff MUST be overanalysed, though. If we don't think about this stuff, then we're basically just flying blind when it comes to the morals we're teaching our kids. This thread is an intellectual and moral exercise. I'm an introspective person. Introspective folk like me are of the belief that you can't overanalyse anything. It's just how we grow as people. The Santa thing is just <i>one</i> example of many other potential lying situations. Thinking this through means I will be more centered when other similar situations (that one can't plan for) come up.

12-07-2003, 05:57 PM	#55
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Yeah, but I'm constantly thinking about, challenging, and researching who I am and what my core beliefs are. :)

12-08-2003, 04:02 PM	#58
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	Well, take the happy ending idea. Most of kids are raised watching Disney movies and similar stuff. The ending is always happy whether a happy ending was earned or not. The little mermaid for example, in the original story she lost her soul. Disney rewrote it of course. So it went from being a cautionary tale of being a disobedient child to a tale that teaches disobedience as a way to become happy. The idea that everything simply works out is crap. It has to be earned, but that's not what kids are taught by TV and movies.       Now I'm the first to say that it's the parents job to nut up and raise their kids instead of putting them in front of the tv. Still, there's no getting past the influence of TV and movies unless you throw away your TV and homeschool the kids. I hope this makes sense. I'm running a fever so I'm not sure... __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

12-08-2003, 04:31 PM	#59
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Still? Do you think it might be the flu?

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