continue Religion debate to infinity here

[Griff]

Aaarg! Hoist the black flag!

One real advantage my kids paro... er private school has is that the parents are invested in it financially and that leads to an emotional investment that shouldn't be discounted. None of us wants to throw money away, so if we think we see mismanagement we are on it and we are listened to because we are customers and partners. We are middle class / working class parents who've decided that education is too important to be left to the political and often politicized system.

[99 44/100% pure]

Originally posted by Griff
One real advantage my kids paro... er private school has is that the parents are invested in it financially and that leads to an emotional investment that shouldn't be discounted.

Not always -- I have met a number of people who have pulled their kids out of private schools because they have witnessed the converse of your admirable reaction, ie; parents who essentially wash their hands of their kids, because, after all, "We've written a big check -- let the school take care of it."

In one salient tale, a girl was routinely shoplifting from the student-run school store, and when the parent advisor tried to stop the child, she just shrugged and walked away. When the parent went to the headmaster (yes, it's one of those schools) she was told "Oh, is that Mr. So-and-so's child? Well, just keep a tab of what she takes and he'll write us a check at the end of the month. We can't afford to upset him; he just paid for our new auditorium."

Egads. Not all folks who make a financial investment make a concommitant emotional investment. On the other hand, imagine how much worse it would be if THOSE kids were home schooled and learning more of their parents' values!

[wolf]

Originally posted by 99 44/100% pure
Egads. Not all folks who make a financial investment make a concommitant emotional investment. On the other hand, imagine how much worse it would be if THOSE kids were home schooled and learning more of their parents' values!

Parents who will buy thier kids out of criminal charges are not the kind of parents who would be willing to invest the time and effort in homeschooling.

[Griff]

Originally posted by 99 44/100% pure

Egads. Not all folks who make a financial investment make a concommitant emotional investment. On the other hand, imagine how much worse it would be if THOSE kids were home schooled and learning more of their parents' values!

I'm familiar a story of preferential treatment that occurred locally where kids from one family and their classmates didn't have to follow dress code in a school, however, to me that is the exception and it didn't last long. Most folks in my school have to scrape to afford it. I'd much rather a place where parents have a financial committment. The two great advantages that public schools have are that they are free and compulsory. Those are also the two things which cause the most problems for the public system.

Ideally, home schooling is the way to go. If my school begins to fail that is our next move.

[hermit22]

I think the emotional attachment to the money depends on how much they depend on the money. Obviously, a family that has to scrape to get by for their kids education are going to care more about the cost of that education than ones that can buy that school a new auditorium.

[Skunks]

This is a rantey-subject I've been looking forward to bitching about for a while, and, ideally, I won't blow it too badly. I'm homeschooled. Well, unschooled, I suppose. I spend my days doing things that entertain me; posting on webboards, IRCing, listening to music, gaming, reading, coding...Whatever strikes me as fun at the time. It goes in phases, actually: rarely do I go from 'gaming' to 'coding' to 'reading' within a single day. Instead, I'll typically focus on a single thing for a good 10-20 hours, burn out, and repeat the process with one of the others.

Public school is flawed. For whatever reason, it's not about education, nor has it been anytime within my lifetime. I've heard some people have decent schools; maybe they just suck more out in Oregon. The approach to teaching around here seems to be "force-feed and regurgitate": read chapters X, do homework Y, take test Z. It might work if the student has an active desire to learn the stuff and takes the time to comprehend and learn it. They can get by without, however, and the material is typically presented as highly disinteresting. Why should they bother?

Over the years, curiosity in new things drops off to about nill. Learning for its own sake ceases to be fun and interesting for many people, as they associate it with the unpleasant and forced nature of school. Somewhere along the line, they develop a dependance on the system; "it's the only way to learn". The most common comment I seem to get is "without school, how will you learn to do $foo?".

I'm not too hot on what little I've heard about most private schools, either, for basically all the reasons that've been mentioned by others within this thread. It might be a viable alternative, but it seems like they could easily just have the exact same problems.

The key thing in learning, I think, is having the kid be interested in it. If they don't care or are actively resisting, why bother wasting your time? Provide motivation, keep them interested, keep them involved.

I suppose the private vs public vs home/un thing is really a question of values. What do you define as "learning"? Is learning more important than money? How much should they learn in what span of time?

The only increased cost that I can see in (home|un)schooling would come from having to take care of the kid(s) during the day when they're young. Teach 'em to cook eggs, pasta, and sandwiches before they're 8 and let 'em fend for themselves. Well, maybe enlighten them on reading, walking, and the route to the library, too.

Admittedly, there are downsides: it's pretty much impossible to get a "well-rounded education" out of unschooling, and the dating prospects are typically about nill.

I don't have any references to cite, but A.S. Neil started a <a href="http://www.s-hill.demon.co.uk/">pretty nifty-looking private school</a> in England, and wrote <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312141378/qid=1040578605/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-3785129-2275964?v=glance&s=books">a book</a> about it. Lots of books have also been written about home/unschooling, but I've only ever read <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0962959170/qid=1040578205/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-3785129-2275964?v=glance&s=books">this one</a>.

--Sk

[jaguar]

I wrote a long post on this yesterday, selected all of it and accidentally hit paste. IE for mac does not seem to have a undo function. I was not amused.

Anyway...

First of all I've been in the 3 systems i'll be talking about - private, public and public elite.

For a few years i went to one of the biggest and most expensive private school there is here. If kids want to learn the are a great environment, providing unique opportunities that the lesser funded public schools cannot. The smaller class sizes and sometimes higher quality of teaching seem to help about 1/3 of those who are not born academics. the other 2/3s just stay the same. The space it gives teachers to move can allow them ot provide more interesting activities that can get otherwise bored kids learning and involved. The private schools here are between $1000 and $25000. This also included religious etc school which often make up the bottom end of the pricing scale.

I think it is the same in the US but the public system here is woefully underfunded. I mean badly. While those with an interest in learning can still thrive it is far harder, the environment is far less positive (although not too different to private schools, a thug in a $1200 blazer is still a stupid thug). Staff wise the teachers tend to be of lower quality, although there are exceptions and you can really tell when you get a good teacher. People are motivated, group work gets done, people hand in work and participate in class. As these schools are run as businesses they do give an amazing amount of leeway to students who can afford it, i know one girl at a top melbourne girls private school who has been kicked out 5 times, each time daddy has written a cheque and she's been let back in with open arms. While I'm more open than a few friends of mine who think the private school system should be abolished to provide a better level of education equality i would like to see the massive amounts of money that go as profits instead going into the public system, my putting everyone in the same environment you can also promote tolerance and understanding, which i would argue is as essential to teach kids as the 3 Rs.

One thing we have here which i don't know of existing outside australia is a network of 2-3 elite public schools in each major capital city. These school have far better funding, a mixture of government and donations from old boys and friends of the school (old boys tend to include high numbers of people in the top and astronomic pay brackets). They compete with private schools in sports, often wear similar uniforms and consistently top the state in final year results, often making up half the intake into top courses such as med and law. these schools tend to only include the last 4-5 years of high school at most and are usually enter by a test/interview. They offer an environment that actively encourages and promotes academic competition, tolerance and the onus to learn is firmly on the student. If work is missed, you fail, no extensions, no excuses, no teachers following you up. Thus while private schools which spoon-feed their students suffer by far the highest uni dropout rate. These schools offer the top 1000 or so students each year to have access to excellent affordable education that encompasses many minorities and a wide range of socioeconomic strata.

I don't think there is an ideal system, but having been through those 3 i do have to say the elite public schools do certainly provide an oppotunity for kids that otherwise would have far more trouble demonstrating their full potential.


Notes:
A good teacher can keep kids entertained while teaching but we all have ot do things in life we don't greatly enjoy, not being facinated is not a good excuse for not learning something at a high school level, i've heard that winge from people my age, quit whining, slacker.

Teachers are the most underpaid and undervalued profession we have. How can you expect the great people that we NEED to go into teaching on the pitiful saleries and futures we offer? Teaching should be as highly respected as law and medicine.

[Skunks]

Originally posted by jaguar
A good teacher can keep kids entertained while teaching but we all have ot do things in life we don't greatly enjoy, not being facinated is not a good excuse for not learning something at a high school level, i've heard that winge from people my age, quit whining, slacker.

There is nothing that can be done to force a stubborn and disinterested pereson to learn--truly learn--something. Sure, you can force them to do meet a certain standard of quality, and maybe they'll pick up a few things, but it's far more work for far less gain. There's no real requirement to learn, let alone remember for more than a few weeks, much of the information that students are presented with in public schools around here. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

--Sk

[Cairo]

I apologize for the late response, this time of year is so hard for me to find time to relax and get in here. Right now, I'm all work,work,work, and no play. Hehehe...

Slang -
Thank you for the kind words to me, when you said,"I've never met a Judaic non-liberal, muchless a female one." My first thought was...Barbra Streisand is Jewish, not Judaic at all. Actually, she's Socialist/Communist which by definition is Godless...thus, explaining her refusal to comment on the Israel-Palestinian matter.
The Lord reveals Himself to whom He will, no matter where you are or what you are doing...only at that time does clarity and inspiration set in.

Jaguar -
You say,"our socialist system is better funded than yours."...Unless you live in Norway or Finland, your Country is going broke! If Norway or Finland were more populated, they too could not keep their head above water. The United States has no desire to become a broke socialist system(welfare was established to be temporary) We are a Capitalist system that serves to empower We the People in this Republic Country.
But I did get a laugh out of your, 'My dad is better than your dad' claim, LOL....
And then you say,"A true scientist has no faith in science..." LMAO...I'll remind you of this the next time you try to use science as a basis of proof or fact. Also, if you understood Stephen Hawking's high energy partical physics...you wouldn't be on this messageboard! ROTFLMAO...
According to you, NASA has been discredited and debunked, eh???? Riiiiight!

http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20...ozonehole.html

Cam -
No, that's not what I'm saying...English translation is available, and the handful of words that can not translated are self explanitory when you read the rest of the paragraph that did translate to English.

Radar -
Let's take a look at what the Religion clause actually means instead of what activist groups tell us it means, shall we?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
Hmmmmm,"make no law"....make no law. In your deluded little mind, exactly what law is Congress clamoring to vote on with regards to the 10 Commandments? If, as you imply, our Founding Fathers had sought to supress religious excercise from the Government and States, they would not have established a congressional Chaplain, prayer before every session begins in congress, Presidential swearing in on the Bible, and the 10 Commandments on the wall of the Supreme building when it was built. Establishment of Religion refers to forcing one single ruling religion onto the people, since the 10 Commandments are recognized by Judaic and Christian, two very different Religions, allowing the democratic will of the people only encourages multi-religion freedom.
Now, the no "prohibiting" part...
Our courts are supposed to decide and interpret LAW, since the Constitution prevents law(for or against) on Religion, what are all these courts basing their opinions on? Constitutionality? A donation or gift by a private citizen, paid for with private funds, given to a public institution for display is a "free excercise thereof". What do you call bypassing Congress to make law from the bench? What do you call making law from the bench that prohibits a citizen their Right to free excercise of Religion?

BTW, I am not a "feller"....even if I was, you are hardly ever right or funny.

Hermitt22 -
The word "shrinking" is actually NASA's word as of Sept.26,2002. (see above link)
Saying that man has the power to in any way affect the Earth is a little "full of ourselves" and Delusions of Grandeur to say the least...it's comparable to claims that ants are ruining your whole backyard!

Wolf -
Great post! Very compeling and well stated from experience...thank you.

[jaguar]

Skunks - thats my point. If kids don't want to learn, particulary at a high school level when they should be aware that in the end, it is for their benefit and in their interest it is their own damn fault, not the system's when they fail miserably and work at maccyDs for the next 40 years of their pathetic lives.

Cairo - Don't you have save gods children meeting to go to or something? You keep marring otherwise interesting conversations with your inane prattle, it's getting annoying.
Oh by the way, i don't think you read your link, for some reason i did.

The researchers stressed the smaller hole is due to this year's peculiar stratospheric weather patterns and that a single year's unusual pattern does not make a long-term trend. Moreover, they said, the data are not conclusive that the ozone layer is recovering.

Stop clinging to straws and drown already.

[Skunks]

Originally posted by jaguar
Skunks - thats my point. If kids don't want to learn, particulary at a high school level when they should be aware that in the end, it is for their benefit and in their interest it is their own damn fault, not the system's when they fail miserably and work at maccyDs for the next 40 years of their pathetic lives.

So the system is perfecto++, and the fact that it doesn't work is entirely the fault of the clearly lazy and worthless students?

My intention was more to outline the problem than to specifically place blame anywhere. Sure, they -can- learn with the current system, but they could learn a lot -more-.

--Sk

[jaguar]

No, I never said the system is perfect, I meant to explicitly state that in my original post but I think it got lost between the first and second versions although it was still applied. What I’m trying to say is that it is not always the fault of the system, the system cannot be perfect, there will always be shits who don't want to learn and the system should most certainly not be tailored towards them. Something both the public and private systems seem to suffer from is catering for the lowest common denominator.

[Cairo]

Everybody -
Please note for the record that I was personally attacked first, which has always been the case...
but now I'm pointing it out beforehand.

Jaguar -
In case you failed to notice...I started this thread. So if my "inane prattle" that reveals how utterly STUPID you are embarrasses and "annoys" you...start a thread of your own to spew your worthless flatulence!!!

BTW - I am sure that you could ~read~ the article all day long, but managing to ~comprehend~ the meaning of it completely eludes you.
Allow me to simplify the meaning for you...
Researchers say that we have no control over the ozone, and we don't know the long term trend because it has nothing to do with us.

LOL...really, the lengths you go to prove you're an idiot are truly fascinating! You don't miss a trick!!!!

And about the school system...any system(Government or Business) that "loses" 2 Million dollars in one year...that system is severely broke!
As for the students...stop "social promotion" if they failed, flunk 'em!!!! Bad parents who raise bad children won't get involved unless their child is held back a grade.

[wolf]

Originally posted by Cairo
As for the students...stop "social promotion" if they failed, flunk 'em!!!! Bad parents who raise bad children won't get involved unless their child is held back a grade.

Unfortunately for the most part the only involvement of the parents is to complain that the child is being held back ... without addressing or even understanding the reasons for this.

(Darnit ... there we go heading off track again)

Attempt to redeem myself here ... One thing that I personally think keeps getting people into difficulty is the promotion of religion over spirituality.

Religion is about doctrine and dogma and the things that people tend to get upset over ... my god is better than your god (or my conception/interpretation of the nature of god) seems to be a central theme.

Spirituality is in part the expression of a religious belief, but is more of a personal, experiential mode of thought.

Wars have been fought over religion time and time again. (consider ... today's terrorist actions in some ways are a continuation of the Crusades ...), but I can't offhand think of one fought over spirituality ...

Am I making ANY sense, or am I just suffering from sleep deprivation at this point?

[jaguar]

Researchers say that we have no control over the ozone, and we don't know the long term trend because it has nothing to do with us.

*sighs*
What the article says is yes, the ozone hole got smaller this yea, due to extremely unusual weather conditions. That is all. The researchers wanted to stress that point so halfwits like you couldn't use it as some kind of evidence to support inane outdated theories.

It does not say that we cannot control the ozone layer, it does not say the hole/s has stopped getting bigger, and it does not refute basic scientific fact about the effect of CFCs on the ozone layer and the fact that we are responsible for the severe damage we have inflcited on it. Something i am acutely aware of here every day - we are on the edge of the hole and trust me, it does not take long to burn at all.

Am I making ANY sense, or am I just suffering from sleep deprivation at this point?

You are making some sense. I'm not sure about your definition of spirituality but i see your point. How would you go about promoting spirituality without religion? The idea interests me but a model for such an idea is rather hard to come by. Religion and spirituality as a subject is deeply interesting but its teaching will always cause discourse.

On the flipside, we're both wasting our time argueing with this prat so...