Gay Marriage

[preacherswife2u]

From Whit:
Um, you know, you basically just said that if we're not christian than we are sinister... Was this intentional? I'm just curious.

No, that's not what I said. When I speak of the depravity of man, I am talking about all mankind. We are all born with a sinful nature, and unless we willfully submit to God, then we will continue on a downward path. Satan is sinister. His influence over those who are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit is quite powerful, whether you believe/acknowledge that or not.

People were also robbed. So they started locking their doors. Kids were abducted, so people became more careful. Scantily clad teenagers were always ogled. So, we are worse as a people because we are more honest about the world around us? What???

Surely you realize that my point was that people did not do these things as often in previous years because there was not the need that there is now for the precautions. You had previously stated that you felt the world was better overall; I was merely making the point that it is indeed getting worse.

Not to be a jackass here, but have you read both testments? How 'bout the story of Jonah? He seems to change whenever he feels like it.

I'm assuming you are speaking of the time that God stayed His own hand against Nineveh after the people there repented of their sins... I'm sorry. I do not see the problem here. God was angry with their sin. He sent Jonah to preach repentance. They did. God was merciful.

Afterward, Jonah went and threw himself a little pity party. He did not like the people of Nineveh. That is why he disobeyed God the first time around and had to be escorted in the belly of a fish. He did not want the people of Nineveh to repent and be spared. That was his problem. He was wrong.

Jonah was so disappointed that he decided he just wanted to die. He went out into the desert to fry. God caused a plant to grow to give him shade which he decided he was glad about. The next day, God caused the plant to die. Jonah was so distraught over the death of the plant, that once again, he wanted to die.

Jonah 4:9-11:

But God said to Jonah, "Do you do well to be angry for the plant? And he said, "I do well to be angry, angry enough to die."

And the Lord said, "You pity the plant, for which you did not labor, nor did you make it grow, which came into being in a night, and perished in a night.

And should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle?"

If you will go back and read my original post, when I spoke of God being unchanging, I was talking about His being just. Moral rights and wrongs to not change with God. When He spoke against homosexuality in the Bible, He was making a moral judgment over that sin that will last for all eternity.

The fact that God is unchanging means that He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He will not tolerate sin. He will not look upon it. Nineveh was in danger of annihilation because of their sin, but they repented. God did not change His mind, but rather He responded to repentance.

In the same way, if a person will repent (agree with God that it is sin, ask forgiveness and turn away from) of the sin of homosexuality - God will respond with forgiveness and mercy. If they will not repent, then God will have no choice but to respond with judgment over that sin, which, btw, will cause Him great sorrow, as it would me also.

[preacherswife2u]

From Happy Monkey:
I am heterosexual, but I would not vote for someone who considers homosexuals inferior.

I am sorry if I gave the impression that I consider people, living a homosexual lifestyle, to be inferior. That could not be further from the truth. I believe that all people are fearfully and wonderfully made by God. I would also not want to support such a person.

I don't want to vote for someone who will uphold my personal beliefs. I want to vote for someone who uphold the right to have personal beliefs. I am not asking for you to "support or be in favor of anything that is considered a sin against God", I am asking you not to oppose it.

I'm sorry, Happy Monkey (it feels strange to address you that way. I'm Jennifer, btw.), but that is just the nature of christianity. I do not oppose homosexuality just to be a contrary party-pooper. But rather, I stand against it because of what that sin will mean in the lives of the people who embrace it. I care far too much for all of mankind, just to let sin permeate and wreak havoc.

Also, I find it hard to "not support" something without "opposing" it at the same time.

[juju]

So, you homeschool, Jennifer? How have your experiences with that been?

My wife is against it because she feels that it denies children of the opportunity to learn social interaction. I personally don't see how she came to this conclusion, as both of our encounters with school stunted our social interaction skills for many years.

[slang]

That's what the NEA has been trying to promote as a good reason for not homeschooling (since the homeschoolers have such higher grades than the public schooled kids).

It's nonsense. My best friend homeschools, his kids are better than good in all measurable catagories.

[juju]

Yeah, I agree. Like I said, I really don't understand that argument. I mean, nothing stunted my social growth more than Jr. High and High School. I only learned to interact with people long after I graduated and joined the work force.

I may not be most people, of course. But certainly, a small percentage of people share those experiences.

[wolf]

I have a friend who homeschools. His son is articulate and personable, to a greater degree than many of his conventionally schooled agemates.

I had the same reservations about homeschooling, largely perpetrated by seeing the freakazoids who make it to the finals of the National Spelling Bee. The more I look into it, the better it all becomes. It does require extremely dedicated parents, and a motivated kid. without that, the whole system breaks down.

I have a lot of issues with the way things are now taught in the schools ... the dumbing down of America distresses me greatly, as does the school system taking on the role of moral educator and parent — one step away from "The state is mother, the state is father."

In the event that I ever reproduce, I'll be homeschooling.

[preacherswife2u]

Juju,

It is a daily adventure! This is our 9th year to homeschool, and some days I am thinking, "...what was I thinking...". But most days, I just enjoy my children so very much.

I do think it is important for children to socialize. Church, of course, offers plenty of opportunity...we just about live there. We also try to help our kids develop interests outside of church...sports, clubs, music, etc.

Our oldest daughter participates in a marching band. She absolutely loves it. She is also in my dh's youth group and meets herself coming and going.

DD #2 plays violin and takes ballet. She got a part in The Nutcracker this year and is beside herself over that. I run myself crazy getting her to practices.

Ds is adopted. We are convinced his birth father is an NBA star. He shore didn't get it from us! He may attend high school in the future to play ball, but in the meantime, he needs to learn how to treat his sisters

Youngest dd is going to be the death of me. I always say..."When one comes out that acts like that...it's time to stop." And we did!

I don't think we could handle much more socialization!

[jinx]

One of the reasons I/we chose not to homeschool was becuase of socializtion, although in general I think it's a fairly weak argument. Lumberjim works long hours and I am a fairly antisocial person (probably scarred for life from public school) so that was a concern of mine.... taking the kids to the park a couple times a week didn't seem to be enough, especially since they were often the only kids there for some reason.
I stressed about school for my older kid for a couple of years, and then found a very small, very laid-back private school, and my son attends 3 days a week. We all love it.

Here's a link if you want to check it out.

[FileNotFound]

Jennifer, as someone who became an Atheist thanks to extensive religions education in Catholic school I am curious how you manage to hold on to your beliefs having actualy read the bibile?

You talk of morals, of rights and wrongs - yet I felt that it would be immoral to follow the bible. Where do my morals come from? From clear thought and pure logic. I believe that all people should have equal rights regardless of race and geneder. The bible does not. Therefore I cannot believe in it.

To show what I mean here are quotes from the bible that have caused me many problems:

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
-- Exodus 20:17 (AV), The Tenth Commandment

The wife is listed amongst things that 'belong' to the neighbour. As a woman do you not feel offended being listed right next to an ox and ass?

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
-- I Corinthians 14:34-35 (NIV)

Yet another case of the bible treating the women as a lesser being. Women must only speak in submission? Can only ask their husband at home? Why can the man speak in church yet not the woman? Is THAT moraly right?

If as a woman you'd like to know more about how the bible feels about your place in this world http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/bepart12.html#ref1223 should help.

How about human sacrifices of children? Moral? No? Oh...crud it's in the bible though. The ever just is at it again..

God did tempt Abraham, ... And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest ... and offer him there for a burnt offering...
-- Genesis 22:1-2 (AV)

Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return ... will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." ... and the Lord gave them into his hands.... When Jephthah returned to his home..., who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! And he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.
-- Judges 11:30-32, 34, 39 (NIV)

Do you believe slavery as moraly right? NO?! Why not?! It's alright God says..

... all who are under the yoke of slavery ... who have believing masters ... must serve all the better since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. If any one teaches otherwise ... he is puffed up with conceit, he knows nothing; he has a morbid craving for controversy..., which produce envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among men who are depraved in mind...
-- I Timothy 6:1-5 (RSV)

Did Jesus come to bring peace and love to the world? Yes? Oh...wait no he didn't!

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother...
-- Matthew 10:34-35 (AV)

I could go ON and ON and ON about Jesus, about the old testament, the new testament etc. Fact is that God DOES change and he has shown himself to not be just. He has shown himself to make mistakes, get angry, take his anger out on people, be jealous etc.

So ok the bible is bad...fine no bible. But faith in God (christian) has only brought about the good in people right?

Wrong.

Fact is that Christianity has always been and continues to be an cruel, closeminded and bloody religion. Bush himself admited that his attack on Iraq was 'ordered' by god. Ashcroft is out busy taking away our rights. I often feel that the whole point behind christianity is to make everyone a slave of the bibile with no permission to think about the meaning of life or trying to understand the world. Instead catholics would have us believe that we most have faith in god and that is all we need for all our success shall come from god and our worship of him is the purpose of our life.

Also, the founding fathers of the United States were atheists or pagans.

Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
-- Isaac Asimov

[FileNotFound]

Originally posted by jinx
One of the reasons I/we chose not to homeschool was becuase of socializtion, although in general I think it's a fairly weak argument. Lumberjim works long hours and I am a fairly antisocial person (probably scarred for life from public school) so that was a concern of mine.... taking the kids to the park a couple times a week didn't seem to be enough, especially since they were often the only kids there for some reason.
I stressed about school for my older kid for a couple of years, and then found a very small, very laid-back private school, and my son attends 3 days a week. We all love it.

Here's a link if you want to check it out.

Jinx does it not scare you that only "over 50%" of graduates go to college from that school?

In perspective the public school that I went to had a rate of over 98%.

[jinx]

No, not at all, why?

[lumberjim]

Originally posted by FileNotFound


Jinx does it not scare you that only "over 50%" of graduates go to college from that school?

In perspective the public school that I went to had a rate of over 98%.

98%?......please. was this in the US? where people have to pay for school? if you can prove that, I'll eat my hat.

that's got to be higher than the percentage that graduated.

[FileNotFound]

Originally posted by jinx
No, not at all, why?

Am I to assume then that you do not desire a college level education for your kids?

Or are you confident that 3 days a week is sufficient to gain entry into a competitive college?

[lumberjim]

Originally posted by FileNotFound


Am I to assume then that you do not desire a college level education for your kids?

Or are you confident that 3 days a week is sufficient to gain entry into a competitive college?

dude, he's 5yrs old

[FileNotFound]

Originally posted by lumberjim


98%?......please. was this in the US? where people have to pay for school? if you can prove that, I'll eat my hat.

that's got to be higher than the percentage that graduated.

Yes US where people pay for schools.

Radnor High School. Look it up.

I'm also looking it up right now...I may find it first if I do I'll post it.


Well I found 91% at http://www.radnorhighschool.com/college/
When I was attending that school I constnatly had 98% thrown out at us during the counceling sessions etc..