Viable Linux Destop?

[jaguar]

I've been dual booting on my main desktop box for a long time now but ie decided to go 'cold turkey' and delete my windows partition. i've been told by a number of friend who use linux extensively that they all swap back in the end, has anyone used linux for a desktop for a long period of time? For refrence i decided to go for Mandrake8/KDE2.2 due to its ease of use and userfriendlyness for a desktop box (i was playing with Debian, but installing it and setting it up is far to much of a hassle for this)

First use of the l33t poll option

[umbrella dryspell]

i think it can be done. there will be certain advantages, and there will be certain sacrifices.

for me, the advantages are:

Linux is fun as a hobby, and the whole point of using computers at home, for me, is to have fun

Linux allows me to easily 'goof off' with things like PHP, Perl, mySQL without installing other programs/drivers.

the disadvantages:

the fact remains that my professional career is based around Windows. when I have to start working at home, or doing anything related to that profession, Windows has to be the OS I use

Internet use, in general, is a bit more cumbersome.

I've not found a Linux browser that handles the web as well as IE (altho I'm open to suggestions here).

I've not found a Linux email reader that I'm terribly happy with.


I suppose the nice thing is that you always <i>can</i> go back if you need to. I've seen people deal with problems in Linux simply out of spite of not wanting to use Windows, which just seems silly to me. My thought, basically, is this: use and abuse the best of each OS, whether it be UNIX, Linux, Win, Mac...whatever.

Of course, all that said, I <i>do</i> still want to kill Bill Gates...

[lisa]

I use linux almost exclusively. I say almost ONLY because I sometimes boot windows to run programs for my daughter (not too many programs for 2-year olds on Linux yet).

At work, I use Linux exclusively. I can read most word and excel files that people send me with Star Office, but I *do* ask people if they could please send me stuff in plain text and they usually comply.

I have found no programs that I need that I cannot find some version of on Linux. Sure, the linux equivalents usually don't have all the bells and whistles of the windoze versions, but I find that those are features that I usually don't use.

If you are a games person, though, or DO use all the bells and whistles, you may find yourself bouncing back to windoze from time to time.

As stated above, use what works best for you and, if it's a tie, go with what makes you feel best.

[mbpark]

I'm actually a pretty big GNOME and GTK fan here.

I was using Ximian GNOME with XFree86 4.0 at home (and am about to put back on the laptop since I want Xchat again).

The best part about the Linux desktop is the large amount of IRC, IM, and chat applications.

I considered StarOffice a nightmare when it came to Word and Excel docs with Macros (which is 90% of the ones I use). This must be why I never used my Linux box for work .

When it comes to doing what I have to do with email, browsing, and the rest, Linux is hardly there.

Netscape 4.x on Linux is worse than IE4 on Windows 98 in terms of performance. Evolution is getting there (email and PIM), but it's still beta. I'll use it when it comes out. Mozilla can make a Pentium III scream in performance pain, it requires that many resources.

However, Linux has Xchat, gAIM, Everybuddy, a ton of cool email scripts, sendmail, BitchX (another of the great IRC clients), and many other cool things. It's too bad amIRC (the greatest IRC client ever) is only available for the Amigas.

We'll see how it performs with 320MB RAM. I've finished qualifying XP here, and will install it temporarily on the ThinkPad before I reinstall 2000 Professional on it. My old GNOME box had 64, and Linux functioned just fine on it.

[Hubris Boy]

I like Linux (and Gnome)... as a hobby, at home. But, at least in the short-term, I don't see it becoming any more than that. I once saw a tee-shirt that sums up it's shortcomings: "Linux is only free if your time has no value." (Granted, the wearer was a rabid *BSD partisan, but the point is still valid.)

I can't imagine using it at work. Too much resistance... too much trouble to overcome 15 years of M$-inspired inertia... too much trouble to keep explaining to people why they have to send you a plaintext file because you can't read a .doc file. Take your pick.

I admire your courage, Jag, but I think I'll have to continue to dual-boot for the foreseeable future.

[jaguar]

Interesting. People who said browsers were a problem have a point, while Konqueror (which i typing this from) its generally very good, some websites kill it (including randomly, the search on the linux tucows site!) and there is no version of flash for it. Mozilla is getting there though, i also use that under windows. I haven't found a Eudora equivilent of the same quality yet so i'm using Moz mail, which is pretty good.

Didn't take me long to find a getright equivilent which was the only app i found i needed so far outside of what comes with Mandrake, which is pretty extensive in the end. I trying to find how you intergrate apt with mandrake (aparantly there is a way) Using OpenOffice at the moment, but i might try Staroffice, i need something with a good quality spellchecker so Hubris Boy can keep bagging my typing =P

Yes, windows is better for some things (gaming in particular - missing my Counterstrike and Max Payne) but i got sick of the calls of hypocrite when enganging in the usual political skirmishes which are a daily at school about privicy etc. And after all it *is* the future

"Linux is only free if your time has no value." How true. I spent 4 hours installing Debian with a friend, and that was just the base install, thats the beauty of Mandrake, fully functional and set up out of the box.

Due to a number of apps i need i might have to keep windows (Lightwave, Photoshop(yes i know, gimp but its not the same), VB6, Access) although i might try Wine first, see how it goes with lightwave though, heavyweight program.

[chotahead]

you might want to try VMWare (www.vmware.com). then, you can use Linux (or Windows, but that defeats the point) as the "host" OS, then install & run *simultaneously* whatever other OS you want as the "guest" OS.

Really. it works quite well.

[lisa]

Originally posted by jaguar
Didn't take me long to find a getright equivilent which was the only app i found i needed so far outside of what comes with Mandrake, which is pretty extensive in the end.

Interesting. What did you use as a "getright equivilent"?

[mbpark]

VMWare = VERY VERY nice.

I've used that and was going to play with Bochs. However, VMWare whips Bochs all around, especially in speed.

VMWare is the one commercial Linux product everyone likes, because it can run EVERY windows version on it.

The only shortcoming is the fact that it only allows for 2GB "hard files" due to the ext2fs limit, which puts me back in the Win95A days.

However, it truly is a very nice tool. I've used it here to run Win98, Win95, Win2K, and Linux on top of all Linux variants.

The Win2K version is just as nice, and it's incredibly stable.

When you work in an environment where Office documents dominate, and various Office versions are very incompatible, especially Access 97, 2000, and 2002 (XP), and Excel 97-2002, you need an alternative to read those documents.

VMWare is it, because Office has a little problem due to macro-enabled documents binding themselves to different DLL versions within the OS itself, especially the Windows Scripting DLLs. VMWare lets me qualify applications on different versions without trashing my own OS, and lets me play with different OS'es without the pain of installing on the actual machine.

The newer versions are supposed to be good enough to allow for emulation of different pieces of hardware, which will be the killer app for device driver testing. In other words, you can put a PCI video card in your system, the latest Nvidia GeForceX or Matrox Gxxx in the AGP slot, and do direct driver writing using the product. Direct PCI and AGP access will make this product the BEST platform for device driver writing ever.

Knowing the Linux kernel, they'll have to ship a custom Linux distribution and kernel to pull it off. Win2K will require a host of custom device drivers, but it can be done without severe pain. Right now VMWare emulates an AMD Ethernet adapter and a generic SVGA video card.

It's good enough to handle all the Windows needs, including running Office at a decent speed. It's my favorite Linux app EVER.

A lot of linux zealots don't like it because it is closed source, but considering the alternatives such as Bochs, it lets me get my job done. That, and it saves money on hardware because you can run multiple OS'es on the same machine at the same time (I have run 95B, 98A, and 2000 Professional at once).

The only downfall is the price, $329.00.

Going to try to make this as relavant as possible.

I started with Linux in 1996, when I first heard about it. My dad bought me a book (I was 15 at the time and had no income), and it came with Slackware 2.something. I installed it fairly painlessly, but I couldn't get X working on my 512k ATI VGA Wonder (what a card!). I fiddled with the command line, trying to get X to work, for about a year. This was having Linux on a separate box, and using my main machine, running Windows 3.1 and then Windows 95, for everything. In 1997 I gave it up for about 6 months. Late 1997, I found Red Hat and gave it a whirl. I believe it was version 5.0. I installed it and got X working, but I couldn't get dialup functioning properly. It was then utterly useless to me, and I dropped it again. I tried again with 5.1 and 5.2, but neither worked.

May 1999 - RedHat 6.0. Gnome. Enlightenment. With a hell of a hacked-up script, I managed to get dialup working. And all of a sudden, there I was, using Linux full time. You can see my rather pathetic desktop (in May 1999 - disregard the name of the image) here.

That was all well and good, but eventually, I went crawling back to Windows. I don't even remember why. That was in September of '99. I began using Litestep on the Windows desktop and was happy with Windows again - it didn't suck. You can see that desktop here. Since Litestep wasn't crashing all the time, all was good.

Then, Februrary, I decided to download RedHat 6.1 and give it a try with my cable modem. That screenshot above for Litestep is the last day I booted into that Windows partition. Ever. A RedHat 5.0->5.1->5.2->6.0->6.1 upgrade had worked. I had my cable modem working flawlessly under Linux. Here's what it looked like, 4 days into the experiment: screenshot. It wasn't much, but it worked.

By late Februrary, I had switched back to running WindowMaker, but this time under Gnome. I did this because I wanted to play Unreal Tournament under Linux, and had read that it did not work under Enlightenment. I put some time into making my desktop. In retrospect, it looked like ass, but it was functional. Check it out.

In late June 2000, I switched to Sawmill (now Sawfish) under Gnome. This is what I run today. Sawfish looks better, feels better, is smaller and faster, and is, in a word, great.

Some time in there, I deleted my Windows partition (after backing up my user-generated files). That became my new home partition (/dave). It's largely the same setup it's been since that time. I haven't made an upgrade to RedHat 6.2. I tried, but it broke my system. I spent about 4 hours repairing everything that it broke (hell on earth), then decided that, from now on, I'd do all upgrades myself. Nearly everything on my system is custom compiled. I use it for my desktop 100%. Although I recently bought an iBook and just yesterday got my Dual 800MHz G4 PowerMac, they aren't desktop replacements - they are supplements to my computing addiction They're also so I can play with MacOS X (which is absolutely stunning). But my desktop operating system is, and will likely remain, Linux.

You can see what it looks like by clicking here.

Now, that scratches the surface of what I'm trying to do here, which is describe Linux on the desktop and what I think it should be/how I feel it can most easily done.

The environment: I choose Sawfish under Gnome. I like Gnome's panels, I like Gnome's stability, and I like Sawfish's flexibility. I have an incredibly responsive system. Now, my computer is no slouch (750MHz Thunderbird, 768MB PC100 CL2 ram, 32MB DDR GeForce2 GTS), but it runs like a brand new machine. It's super fast and super stable (the only time I reboot it is for hardware upgrades - 120 day uptime is typical). I personally find the Gnome/Sawfish combination to be an exceptional one, and I think that any respectable Linux users owes it to themself to give it a try.

Communications: For me, this is the second most important thing. First, I need a stable environment. But I need to talk to the outside world as well. I find Linux to be the best in this are. X-Chat (http://www.xchat.org) is the best IRC client I've ever used (but BitchX is good to, and I use that over ssh/telnet sessions, etc). Gaim (http://www.marko.net/gaim) is the AIM client I've been using for years. It's absolutely exceptional. Frequent bug fixes, stable, great interface and layout... I love it. I strongly prefer it to the AOL AIM clients. Strongly prefer it. As far as ICQ goes, I personally use Licq (http://www.licq.org) and that's probably the way to go. It's stable. The only thing I don't like about it is that the most developed gui-plugin for it is written in Qt, and Qt has been a pain in the ass on my system. It also doesn't fit in with the rest of my apps. But that's okay. It works, and that's what's important.

Email: I know this fits in with communications, but it's a bigger deal. Email is, as we all know, the most important internet application. Under Linux, I started using Netscape Communicator for email. I used this for about six months, but in August of 2000, I switched to Mutt (http://www.mutt.org). Mutt is a command-line interface mail user agent (MUA). Basically, it just handles the display of email and the transport of your email message to sendmail on your local machine. Sendmail then sends it, and it's all taken care of.

The reasons I like Mutt are numerous. I stayed away from it at first (I've known about Mutt for years) because it was command line and I wanted a nice gui email client. I tried probably 10 gui email clients and none of them were what I was looking for. They just didn't do enough. Evolution was promising, but it was far off (realize that this was a year ago - Evolution has come a LONG way since then). I finally took the plunge to Mutt and I haven't looked back since.

I like Mutt because it's fast to use. I can get around it very easily with the keyboard. My hands are already on the keyboard, and it keeps me from reaching for the mouse every 2 seconds. It also allows you to use whatever text editor you wish to send your email. I use vim (http://www.vim.org), but you can use pico or emacs or joe or whatever you like. It's also fully customizable - colors, bindings, display options, etc. You can configure it all. You configure the mail headers, everything. It's not much, but it's the most useful mail client I've ever used. You need to write a .muttrc for it - you can view mine (for the most part - I've left some things out) here.

Browser: I use Mozilla. I used Netscape for the longest time before that, but I use Mozilla now, and have for probably the last five months. It runs fast for me. It looks good, it's stable, it handles most web pages with no problem. It has Flash and Java plugins that work fine. All in all, it's the best browser for me. I use it for just browsing - nothing else. See what it looks like. I've heard that Konq is good, but I have no interest in using it. Mozilla will do just nicely.

Monitors: I'm not sure I could live with GKrellM (http://www.gkrellm.net). They're pictured in the lower right hand corner of my current desktop screenshot. It's a bunch of system monitors running under 1 process. You can add and subtract to/from it as you like, as well as add plugins, etc. It's pretty great.

Games: I like playing games. I'm an avid Quake III Arena player. I like Unreal Tournament okay too (only when I'm playing friends - I can't compete at that game, I find it too hokey and slow moving). I recently started playing the Wolfenstein Multiplayer Test. All work flawlessly under Linux. Soldier Of Fortune is fun too. Granted, I can't play Counter Strike, Diablo, or any of the other thousands of games that are available as Windows-only. But I make do with what I've got.

Office: I don't use office software at home. I don't use Linux because I need to write a term paper. But if I did, I would probably use OpenOffice or StarOffice. StarOffice is godawfully slow, but it works (or did 2 years ago when I used it). When I need to make a spreadsheet for whatever reason, I use Gnumeric. It tends to work nicely.

Everything Else: It's hard to list all the programs I use. I have a lot of scripts I've written to make my life easier. There are tons of apps on my system that I use on a daily basis. Too many to list. I just hit the big ones. There are image viewers, text editors, etc. As far as text editing goes, I just use vim. But there's gnotepad, gedit, etc.

Look for apps at Freshmeat (http://www.freshmeat.net). It's always been the best site to look for apps.

Miscellaneous: I use multiple desktops. As you can seen in my screenshots, I generally have four set up. I use the first one for my main stuff (irc, aim, icq, email, etc), the second for a browser, the third for xterms and the fourth for whatever I need it for - gimp, watching some videos, etc. I highly recommend using multiple desktops. I'm not sure how I ever got along without them before Litestep and then Linux.

Conclusion: You can do Linux on the desktop. You can even do it cold turkey. But it takes some work. My recommendation is to use Debian. It's what I use on all new builds I do on my boxes (I'll probably shy away from rebuilding my main box for a long time, it's too customized and it would be too time-consuming to redo). Debian will make your life easier because it's so easy to administer. I promise you, the "setup hassles" that people describe are well worth it. You may want to lookat Progeny Debian if you are concerned about installation/setup - word on the street is that Progeny has a great installation with all the benefits of Debian. I'm not knocking Mandrake or RedHat or anything, but Debian truly is the most elegant distribution.

Other than that, good luck. I wish you well on your endeavor, and I'm perfectly willing to present you any help you need while trying to keep Linux as your desktop. It's been my desktop for over a year and a half exclusively, and as I said before, it likely will be for the forseeable future. It can be done. Good luck.

[Undertoad]

So who's the chick, and why are megan, manda, and jib considered dorks?

J/K. It looks good. That's some good work.

"the chick" is Jenni, my better half/significant other. Which means, we've been together a while, I love her, I want to be with her, we live together, but we're not married. 'Cause I'm 20. And she's not quite 19 yet. Wahoo. We'll see how that turns out. Let you know in 10 years

Manda is just a dork. Megan is my best friend. Jib == My Sister. Jen. Dad used to call her "J-Bird." J-Bird turned into "Jibberd" by myself. And I later shortened it to "Jib." They're "dorks" 'cause that's the only list I have on there. I call everyone "dork."

[jaguar]

Lisa - a program called X Downloader, seems to be permanatly on the front page of linux tucows so..

Since i started this thread i've had t reinstall Win2k because of work i needed to do in VisualBAsic/Access for school. Right now i'm linux about 50% of the time. Mandrake is fantasic, its very windows like when it comes ot ease of use but when somehting breaks it often takes a bit of tracking down. The update utility is alot like apt-get, which is of course god of updaters.


VMWare ain't bad but its just so slllooowwww so i gave up on it. Been meaning io give Wine a try, aparantly its coming along well (can even emulate SirCam so it must be good )

Its mostly the lack of professional development software thats cause me to move back a bit, i need my photoshop, there is no Flash Director for Linux, Illustrator, Lightwave etc.. So for now, dual boot i will continue. The other royal pain in the acc about having multiple OS's is that linux takes 2 primary partitions, leaving me only iwth 2 for windows. Due to me bing lazy and having my C drive as NTFS when i decided for format c and reinstall Win2k, i totally screwed myself. My win2k disk is an upgrade version requiring window to run, usually you install 98, then 2k, then delete 98. I forgot c was NTFS. So i went into fdisk ot delete it, fdisk decided it didn't liek me and refsued ot let me make a new Primary partition afterwards. I couldn't format the entire drive because i hadn't done a recent backup of everything (my bad again) including 5-6Gb f MP3s i was NOT going to delete. This menat i had no free primary partitions, or ones i could delete. I was recused by a friend to whom i took my hd(none of my others were big enough to take everyhting i needed to back up), copied everything important off and formatted the whole thing, overall a very painful learning experience about having 2 OS and 3 file formats on one HD. I'm not going to touch NTFS again.

the biggest problem with ntfs is that we haven't hacked it yet write support for it is non-existant. fat32, we can at least work with. but it's still not the best file system. of course, ext2 isn't either... but i don't have to defrag or any shit like that

tell you what though... i just got my pimpintosh - dual 800mhz g4, geforce3, 1.152 gigs of ram, 120 gigs hard drive... running os x exclusively (like i do on my new ibook)... man... what a great setup. it threatens to keep me away from my main desktop box too long there isn't an operating system that looks this good, period. it just feels good too... and i can play quake3, so that's a bonus i used to be a vehement apple hater, but now i own two (and have spent about $6,000 on those two systems in the past 4 months)... they've definitely got something... i definitely recommend

[jaguar]

Where do you live i'm stealing that box. Now.
GForce3+Dual800G4.....*drools*