So the short fat Latino dude ...

[limegreenc]

For as long as I can remember, there has been racial violence ending in death. It doesn't matter which country you're from, the law sides with the police. If you're black, you're guilty until proven innocent. In Canada, the targets have been the Native American communities. The RCMP have much to answer for in the northern parts of Alberta. It's disgusting. There's probably an actual # somewhere, of incidents like this one. I'm willing to guess the # stands around 2,000.

[gvidas]

Tangential to the Zimmerman trial, but two really great articles that I read today:

Ta Nehisi Coates on why stop and frisk is a natural product of white supremacy:

An capricious anti-intellectualism, a fanatical imbecility, a willful amnesia, an eternal sunshine upon our spotless minds, is white supremacy's gravest legacy. You would not know from reading Richard Cohen that the idea that blacks are more criminally prone, is older than the crime stats we cite, that it has been cited since America's founding to justify the very kinds of public safety measures Cohen now endorses. Black criminality is more than myth; it is socially engineered prophecy. If you believe a people to be inhuman, you confine them to inhuman quarters and inhuman labor, and subject them to inhuman policy. When they then behave inhumanely to each other, you take it is as proof of your original thesis. The game is rigged. Because it must be.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...filing/277871/

And, from the NYTimes, a profile of a group of people taking a different tack in Los Angeles:

Crime has fallen for the past 10 years in Los Angeles. In Watts, violent crime is down nearly 30 percent since 2011. But it’s not just Watts. Angelenos are now as safe as New Yorkers, statistically speaking, despite the fact that L.A. has just under two-thirds as many police officers per capita as New York City. Moreover, a 2009 survey showed that 83 percent of Angelenos believe that the department is doing a good or excellent job, and majorities of every major ethnic group in the city said that most L.A.P.D. officers treat them with respect.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/ma...ach-other.html

[Adak]

Originally Posted by chrisinhouston

Adak, I think you are misunderstanding what is known as "the castle doctrine" which most "stand your ground" laws are based on. I believe it had more to do with protecting one's home or "castle." I don't follow your connection to people being conscripted to serve in battle. I also think it worth noting that current UK laws have no such provision and that a home owner defending his/her home with a weapon is most likely breaking the law!

I also don't understand your claim that AG Holder is a liar. I thought his speech was pertinent and extemely personal as to his experinces as a black man.

Since being outside your home is central to the Martin/Zimmerman case, I don't see any relationship to a "Castle Doctrine", which pertains directly to those who are inside their homes.

Frankly, I don't care WHAT his personal experiences are - whether he's white or black, or brown or purple. What Holder is DOING is the only thing I care about - and so far, it's been a lot on the negative side, and damn little on the positive side.

Holder has withheld documents required by law, from Darryl Issa's investigation committee. He's also lied about it, and had some of the whistleblowers, fired. Fast and Furious was a line item in his departments budget, and a special program designed and approved by retards (which includes him, since he ultimately approves everything in his department).

What is Holder's department doing to investigate and prosecute the federal crime committed by the IRS, in suppressing the conservative 501c/501c[3] applications, prior to the last election?

This was #2 on the impeachment actions taken against Richard Nixon. But under Holder, -- it's crickets singing in the night.

The Black Panthers were stationing teams of men armed with clubs, outside voting sites in Philly. Documentation and pics were made of it, by reporters.

But under Holder, -- no investigation, and no prosecution.

I haven't seen anything good come out of the DOJ, since Holder took over. Have you?

If so, what?

[Lamplighter]

Adak, I'm sure you have been too busy following the Zimmerman case,
and just overlooked a previous posting about Darryl Issa's self-generated "scandals", etc.

But this was my summary in a different thread just a few days ago.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by tw

According to FL law, Martin had every right to beat the crap out of Zimmerman. He was stalked and confronted. And had every reason to fear for his life. We now know what he did not. Martin had more reasons than he knew to fear for his life. ...

You've got to know when to hold ground, know when to give ground
Know when to walk away and know when to run
You never turn on a watchman in a gated community
There'll be time enough for protest when the day is done

Every hoodie knows that the secret to survivin'
Is knowin' who is posturing and who is packin' heat
'Cause every brawl's a winner and every brawl's a loser
And the goal is to live long enough to die in your sleep

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Adak, I'm sure you have been too busy following the Zimmerman case,
and just overlooked a previous posting about Darryl Issa's self-generated "scandals", etc.

But this was my summary in a different thread just a few days ago.

I actually have tried to avoid the Zimmerman case details. After Martin's girl friend said Martin told her he was going back and would "fix that cracker following me", I had a very good idea of the incident, as far as intent goes.

There were a lot of mistakes made by Zimmerman and Martin, but it was Martin who made the incident into a fight.

I agree that there is some political posturing on Obama's every perceived shortfall, but that has been the way of Washington, since Nixon's impeachment. I equate that with stock cars "swapping paint" on the track.

But, the IRS scandal rises up FAR above the level of political posturing. THAT is a federal crime. The Benghazi incident was a real "I will lie to your face, and you must believe it", act by Obama. That's right up there with Bush's "weapons of mass destruction in Iraq" bullshit.

One reason why several of these scandals seem blown out of proportion (in addition to the political posturing of the Republicans), is that the mainstream media gives Obama (and his administration), a nearly perfectly free pass on all of them. There's almost no heat directed back at Obama - which is quite the change, hearkening back to the days of the Kennedy's, when the media just looked the other way on a lot of Presidential mis-deeds.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by sexobon

You've got to know when to hold ground, know when to give ground
Know when to walk away and know when to run
You never turn on a watchman in a gated community
There'll be time enough for protest when the day is done

Every hoodie knows that the secret to survivin'
Is knowin' who is posturing and who is packin' heat
'Cause every brawl's a winner and every brawl's a loser
And the goal is to live long enough to die in your sleep

Wrong. Martin wasn't "stalked". Zimmerman was keeping an eye on him, as a neighborhood watch guy/gal might be expected to. The name - neighborhood WATCH" means just that. They try to keep an eye out on people in their neighborhood.

Martin was never threatened. He told his girl friend, just before he turned back to meet with Zimmerman, that he was going to "fix that cracker following me".

To spell is out for the gentrified folk, that means Martin was the one who confronted Zimmerman, with violent intentions.

Either that, or Martin was a doctor, and Zimmerman was his patient.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Adak

Wrong. Martin wasn't "stalked". Zimmerman was keeping an eye on him, as a neighborhood watch guy/gal might be expected to.

So Zimmerman got out of his car. Followed Martin by foot. Did exactly what a neighborhood watch person is NOT supposed to do. Got so close as to create a physical confrontation. And yet did not stalk Martin? Did not create the confrontation?

Not even Zimmerman would believe that.

And OJ Simpson was home watching TV when Nicole was murdered - using your logic. Wacko extremist rhetoric is alive and well.

[sexobon]

Adak, are you responding to tw or to me. You quoted my response to tw in which I was addressing tw's notion that Martin was standing his ground. When I parodied Kenny Rogers' song The Gambler, I was implying that Martin needed to know when to hold or give ground. Even when someone is in fear for their life, standing ground just because one can isn't always the prudent course of action. Martin is now the poster child for that mistake.

I question whether any judge would apply the Stand Your Ground law to Martin as he had not yet reached the age of majority. It would set a president for all minors to perpetrate violence against adults by simply claiming they were in fear for their lives. This, even though minors as a group are generally considered to not have the skill sets, experience and maturity, to make an accurate determination like those inadequacies personified by Martin. There are many laws on the books that minors can't avail themselves of for that reason.

Additionally, the courts have routinely upheld that once someone turns and closes on an antagonist, rather than just remaining in place (standing their ground), their action demonstrates that they were not in fear for their life. The courts have also upheld that in a confrontation the first one to lay hands on another, in the absence of demonstrable serious threat to their physical self, becomes the aggressor. Many have resisted police arrest claiming that they did it in self defense while in fear for their lives 'cause the police had guns. The courts have routinely upheld that the mere presence of police officers' legally carried guns does not constitute a threat and the courts are extending that to all legally armed citizens.

Right or wrong, Zimmerman provoked only a verbal confrontation. The verdict implies that Martin initiated a physical confrontation, without adequate justification, and escalated it to such a level that his actions forfeited his right to life. Zimmerman was talking on the phone with police. Martin was talking on the phone with his girlfriend. Who intended to proceed within the limits of the law is clear. Childlike interpretation of the facts secondary to emotionally dysfunctional hoplophobia is alive and well.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by tw

So Zimmerman got out of his car. Followed Martin by foot. Did exactly what a neighborhood watch person is NOT supposed to do. Got so close as to create a physical confrontation. And yet did not stalk Martin? Did not create the confrontation?

Not even Zimmerman would believe that.

And OJ Simpson was home watching TV when Nicole was murdered - using your logic. Wacko extremist rhetoric is alive and well.

I'll tell you what I know, from statements of witnesses:

1) The community (a small gated apartment community)was being burglarized "frequently".

2) Martin was walking around, at about sunset, and appeared suspicious to Zimmerman. People claim this is a sign of racism, but the vast majority of burglars are young males, between the age of 14 and 34 years old. Certainly, burglars operate at night, under cover of darkness, as well as in the daytime.

Although the prosecution dug deep for ANY sign of racist speech, posts, or acts in Zimmerman's past, they found absolutely NOTHING. Since that was the case, the judge ordered that no reference to racial profiling, could be used, by either side in the trial. The judge was a black woman, btw.

3) Martin became aware of Zimmerman following him, by the time he got back to his girl friends house. He handed her the candy he'd bought at the local store, and told her he was going "to fix that cracker", that was following him.

Note that Zimmerman is 4 inches shorter than Martin, and "well marbled" (a bit fat). In appearance, he looks a lot more like the Pillsbury dough boy, than any kind of an athlete.

4) Martin then doubled back to "fix" Zimmerman. What their verbal interaction was, I have no idea.

5) A fight breaks out between them. The witness could only see due to the fading light and distance, than the guy with the hoodie on knocked the other guy to the ground, and was punching the guy on the ground, repeatedly.

6) Zimmerman had a concealed weapons permit, and although advised not to wear it, he had brought it with him. Martin broke Zimmerman's nose, and was hitting his head hard enough to slam the back of his head against the ground. Someone was heard calling out for help, repeatedly.

Shortly afterward, Zimmerman shot Martin one time, killing him.

This may shock you, but as a Neighborhood watcher, Zimmerman is SUPPOSED to watch people, in the neighborhood. Remember, this is a rather small gated apartment community, and Martin didn't live there - he was just visiting for the weekend.

By induction, it should be elementary that Zimmerman should be watching this non-resident young male walking around inside the gated community, at sunset.

By the statement of the gf, it was MARTIN who confronted Zimmerman, not the other way around. In any case, the confrontation SHOULD have stayed VERBAL, and non-violent, but it clearly did not.

Now, do you think this Pillsbury doughboy, acting as a Neighborhood watcher, attacked a high school football player who was 4 inches taller than he is?

Or do you think that Martin tried to "fix that cracker", by breaking Zimmerman's nose, and then slamming his head against the ground a few times?

If Zimmerman had no injuries, I'd say it was the former, and Zimmerman was guilty of murdering Martin - but Zimmerman had significant injuries. Half a dozen more head slams and it might well have been Zimmerman who was killed.

Since there was no video of it, we will never be 100% certain of just how this tragedy unfolded. Given the info I have, I have to say it was Martin who was pounding on Zimmerman, and Zimmerman was defending himself.

[glatt]

Wendy Dorival was the civilian member of the police department who set up that particular neighborhood watch program.

Dorival testified that in fall 2011, she visited Zimmerman and other residents at the housing complex to discuss setting up a watch program. During her testimony, prosecutor Guy focused on her instructions to residents about how to behave when they spotted a suspicious person.

“Their duty is to be the eyes and ears. Report crime as they see it,” said Dorival, adding that she provided handouts stressing this and also explained it verbally during the meeting. Zimmerman was there as the neighborhood watch coordinator, a role he told Dorival had been assigned him by the president of the homeowners' association.

Guy asked Dorival what the handouts and her instructions tell volunteers to do if they begin following a suspicious person.

“We tell them they don’t do that. That’s the job of law enforcement,” she replied.

The same instructions apply to confronting a suspicious person, Dorival said. She said her presentation would advise people, “Not to confront, to let … the police department do the job.

“They’re not supposed to take matters into their own hands. … Let law enforcement take the risk of approaching a suspect,” Dorival said.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Adak

Now, do you think this Pillsbury doughboy, acting as a Neighborhood watcher, attacked a high school football player who was 4 inches taller than he is?

Of course he did. He had a gun. That makes fools of anyone inspired by 'more power'. If thinking intelligently (ie without a gun), then Zimmerman would have done what cops told him to do. Stayed in the car rather than challenge someone who was larger. Would have done what all Neighborhood Watch are supposed to do. Only watch. Stay in the car and only watch. He had a gun which explains his confrontational attitude. An attitude only further confirmed by his exact words at 7:13.

An exact quote from Zimmerman before he goes off to confront Martin:

These assholes, they always get away.

Did Martin go inside his girlfriend's house, say that, double back, and then go out to confront Zimmerman? Of course not. Another myth generated to distort reality. We know what Martin said to his girlfriend *** on the phone - not inside her house ***. Martin told her that a “creepy-ass cracker” was following him but that he thought he had evaded him. But she said a short time later, Martin let out a profanity followed by him dropping the phone. Is that Martin stalking Zimmerman? Of course not.

We also know what Zimmerman said when he did exactly what the cops told him to not do and what is an absolute and fundamental violation of Neighborhood Watch. He took off after Martin at 7:13. By 7:17, police arrived and Martin was already dead.

If Martin had killed Zimmerman, well, according to Florida law, he was justified. Some creepy-ass cracker was following him. That means he had every right to attack Zimmerman. But we know he dropped his phone suddenly when Zimmerman suddenly confronted and somehow surprised Martin.

Somehow we know Zimmerman got out of his car to *not* follow Martin? Nonsense. How ridiculous is that assumption? How could anyone be that naive? But again, cited is where such nonsense and distortion comes from. Wacko extremist rhetoric.

Zimmerman's attitude was quite clear from his own words. Martin was the asshole who always gets away. Martin, on the other hand, had every reason to fear. Because Zimmerman was an adult acting like a child. And doing so because he was doing what nobody can do on Neighborhood Watch - carry a gun. Martin had every right, under Florida law, to kill Zimmerman. Even described Zimmerman's actions: a creepy asshole who was following him. Zimmerman was not acting as an adult on Neighborhood Watch. And was acting as a threat to Martin.

Martin was not in his girlfriend's house. However extremist rhetoric needs to distort reality.

[sexobon]

Zimmerman was undoubtedly being a douchbag, perhaps to appease his own ego. Unfortunately, Martin responded to that by being a punk, perhaps to impress his girlfriend. Both showed serious lapses in judgment. Martin paid for it with his life; because, he was too naïve to live. Zimmerman will pay for it one way or another for the rest of his life; because, he was the adult in that situation and responsible for controlling it which he failed to do. But there are right ways and wrong ways to hold Zimmerman accountable and many are upset 'cause they can't take matters into their own paranoid hands, perhaps they're not all that much unlike Zimmerman themselves.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Adak

But, the IRS scandal rises up FAR above the level of political posturing. THAT is a federal crime.

Every hearing Issa holds on that "scandal" ends up making it less and less scandalous.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by tw

Of course he did. He had a gun. That makes fools of anyone inspired by 'more power'. If thinking intelligently (ie without a gun), then Zimmerman would have done what cops told him to do.

Wrong. It was the dispatcher who told him to not go outside. Dispatchers are not cops, they are not sworn officers, at all. They have no authority to order anyone, to do anything. They advise only.

Stayed in the car rather than challenge someone who was larger. Would have done what all Neighborhood Watch are supposed to do. Only watch. Stay in the car and only watch. He had a gun which explains his confrontational attitude. An attitude only further confirmed by his exact words at 7:13.

Wrong. There is no requirement that a neighborhood watcher stay in a car - or even use a car at all. The apartment community Zimmerman and Martin were in, made cars almost useless for watching anyone.

Did Martin go inside his girlfriend's house, say that, double back, and then go out to confront Zimmerman? Of course not. Another myth generated to distort reality. We know what Martin said to his girlfriend *** on the phone - not inside her house ***.

I didn't say Martin was inside the gf's house. I said he told her that.

Martin told her that a “creepy-ass cracker” was following him but that he thought he had evaded him. But she said a short time later, Martin let out a profanity followed by him dropping the phone. Is that Martin stalking Zimmerman? Of course not.

I don't know what Martin's profanity was about, but somewhere early in the struggle, he broke Zimmerman's nose, and knocked him to the ground.

Sounds to me like Martin wanted to punch with both fists, not hold his cell phone in one hand, and punch with the other hand.

We also know what Zimmerman said when he did exactly what the cops told him to not do and what is an absolute and fundamental violation of Neighborhood Watch. He took off after Martin at 7:13. By 7:17, police arrived and Martin was already dead.

Wrong. Cops didn't tell him not to follow Martin. That was a dispatcher, who has zero authority (and never went to the police academy, either). Dispatchers are NOT cops.

Zimmerman made a mistake by following Martin on foot, without having backup. That much is perfectly correct.

If Martin had killed Zimmerman, well, according to Florida law, he was justified. Some creepy-ass cracker was following him. That means he had every right to attack Zimmerman.

Absolutely WRONG! People are perfectly free to follow you in public. Later on, that COULD be construed as stalking, but then you have to get into perceived intent, etc.

And frankly, I don't believe Zimmerman is a creepy - ass, scary dude. He's a lot more like the Pillsbury doughboy.

But we know he dropped his phone suddenly when Zimmerman suddenly confronted and somehow surprised Martin.

Or when Martin decided to fight in earnest, with both fists swinging.

Somehow we know Zimmerman got out of his car to *not* follow Martin? Nonsense. How ridiculous is that assumption? How could anyone be that naive? But again, cited is where such nonsense and distortion comes from. Wacko extremist rhetoric.

So your opinion is that Zimmerman murdered a stranger he'd never met before, who had committed no crime. Then he broke his own nose, and slammed his own head into the ground several times, and somehow got the only eye witness, to see Martin on top, punching downward with his fists, into the smaller guy?

Yeah! That makes a lot of sense!

Zimmerman's attitude was quite clear from his own words. Martin was the asshole who always gets away. Martin, on the other hand, had every reason to fear. Because Zimmerman was an adult acting like a child. And doing so because he was doing what nobody can do on Neighborhood Watch - carry a gun.

If you have a private concealed carry license, you can carry a gun. They don't like you to, but it's your right to do so.

Martin had every right, under Florida law, to kill Zimmerman. Even described Zimmerman's actions: a creepy asshole who was following him. Zimmerman was not acting as an adult on Neighborhood Watch. And was acting as a threat to Martin.

Being watched by the neighborhood watch, is not a threat. That's neighborhood watch doing what they're supposed to do.

Martin was not in his girlfriend's house. However extremist rhetoric needs to distort reality.

I didn't say he was IN her house. I understood that he walked over TO her house, and was talking to her outside. Then called her later just before confronting Zimmerman.

I'm not saying Zimmerman is a saint here, but there is no way you can say he committed murder, beyond a reasonable doubt. There simply is not enough evidence to support that, and strong evidence to indicate that Zimmerman was beaten up first, and shot Martin only later, after Martin was slamming his head into the ground.

Those injuries are FACTS, not my theories, or your theories. They tend to show that Zimmerman defended himself.

Of course, Obama can't wait to weight in on this:
Obama: Trayvon Martin could have been me

He wants to just ratchet up the racial hatred, one little bit more. He knows there are already people on the net, calling for Zimmerman to be killed, ASAP.

He couldn't care less.