China conducts first test-flight of stealth plane

[loTEK911]

Wow. I can't remember the last time I logged on here. Years maybe! Long time no see! So I'm looking for educated input here. If the US, who has the largest defense budget in the world by far, is trying to down grade thier (our) military & focus on rapid mobilization & anti insurgent tactics, (rightly so) why is China dumping mass $$ into a stealth fighter that is predominately effective only in a mass modern war. A concept that most experts view as a thing of the past. Cold war days. I have allways had faith in the Cellar. Enlighten me.

[loTEK911]

I forgot. It's been awhile.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12159571

[sexobon]

To defend North Korea with? Perhaps China believes that the North will eventually exceed the South's tolerance for harassment, either in quality or quantity, and that retaliation is inevitable.

[tw]

Originally Posted by sexobon

To defend North Korea with?

That implies complete ignorance of what is ongoing inside China. For example, if you understand China, then you understand why the Chinese military would not tell the central party leadership about a crash between a Chinese fighter plane and a US spy plane. Those reasons why start to explain the so many different power brokers with different agendas in China.

Unfortunatley too many only see black and white, monolithic governments with one totalitarian leader, and other Limbaugh style logic. China is a far more interesting, confusing, complex, and serious set of forces. For example, what are China's strategic objectives? Long before answering China's military developments, one must have answers to that far more important question.

[sexobon]

SHADOW! What took you so long to get here? You know I don't typically post in this kind of thread. I just wanted to see if you were going to come and quote me; or, the thread's creator. So predictable, damn parasite.

[Lamplighter]

People are very upset with Wikileaks for giving out secret US documents.

But I have wondered in the past, and now with this stealth plane being debuted in China,
just how do other countries make such rapid engineering progress.
I assume it has taken the US many years to develop the stealth designs and materials.
Did China really develop their designs independently of the US ?

We now know that Russia received documents for many years that kept them abreast of US weaponry.
But are these other countries (China, Iran, North Korea) likewise able to copy design developments ?
It would almost require them to penetrate each and every US company working on a project needed for a viable weapon.

I don't believe they are getting copies via Wikileaks.
Maybe I'm just paranoid enough to believe they are getting data
straight from the US government or from our allies.

[loTEK911]

Our allies haven't exactly proven themselves on the up & up with us.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-t...g_us_musl.html
But you have to ask about motivation. I can see maybe Israel, hypothetically, getting their hands on complete tech info for the F-22 and, not having a need to build a stealth fighter themselves, might sell it. But with the vast amounts of cash nations throw at each other, the price tag doesn't seem worth risking the loss of the US as an ally. It's one thing to steal plans for spy cameras & drones to use themselves. It's another to jeopardize US air supremacy by selling stealth tech to a rival super power.

[loTEK911]

I think I found the answer to my question. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12154991 The only thing is I thought I heard that we were so in debt with China, a war between the 2 would cripple China economically.

[tw]

Take special note of proper nouns used in your citations. They did not say China or Central Party. They often said PLA. A major and important distinction that so many will overlook. Many assume a monolithic China. Then assume PLA is just another word for China. There is no monolithic China. There is no monolithic N Korea. Those who assume otherwise may fail to read what the author was really writing.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by loTEK911

If the US, who has the largest defense budget in the world by far, is trying to down grade thier (our) military & focus on rapid mobilization & anti insurgent tactics, (rightly so) why is China dumping mass $$ into a stealth fighter that is predominately effective only in a mass modern war. A concept that most experts view as a thing of the past.

We are not downgrading, we're rearranging response priorities. Making the left jab more effective doesn't negate the haymaker right, it enhances it. China is seeking what we've already got.

Originally Posted by loTEK911

Our allies haven't exactly proven themselves on the up & up with us.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-t...g_us_musl.html
But you have to ask about motivation. I can see maybe Israel, hypothetically, getting their hands on complete tech info for the F-22 and, not having a need to build a stealth fighter themselves, might sell it. But with the vast amounts of cash nations throw at each other, the price tag doesn't seem worth risking the loss of the US as an ally. It's one thing to steal plans for spy cameras & drones to use themselves. It's another to jeopardize US air supremacy by selling stealth tech to a rival super power.

For Israel, it started with the Rosenburgs, and has continued unabated.
We have so many immigrants, many still foreign nationals, working in high tech industries that do research/development/manufacturing for the defense department, the secrets are often out of the country before the military ever gets them. They just prosecuted an Engineer at Boeing, who had been selling tech data to China for a decade. He said although he was paid for it, his primary motivation was his Chinese heritage.
We also have a tremendous number of foreign students rotating though our higher educational system. They return home with a long list of frat-brothers/classmates, who can be probed later for possible deals without raising suspicion.
Even in a tightly controlled totalitarian society, there is only so much that can be done to prevent data theft. The best prevention is national loyalty, and that's problematic in our "embracing diversity" culture.

[Lamplighter]

"If we could just get rid of all the damn furriners"
So said Chief Rain In the Face when he stumbled over Plymouth Rock

It seems implausible to me that an entire stealth fighter could be reproduced
by one or even thousands of individual employees,
regardless of their nationality or heritage.

I would look to purposeful governmental or corporate maneuverings

[xoxoxoBruce]

Chief Rain in the Face knew their loyalty was not here, and their loyalty, above all else, would govern their actions.

They don't need the entire plane, only key secret technologies, the rest of the shit they can get online. I've seen a complete breakdown of who's making what, and how the assembly goes together. The only thing missing was the technology for how the components operated, and only a small part of that is new.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by tw

Unfortunatley too many only see black and white, monolithic governments with one totalitarian leader, and other Limbaugh style logic. China is a far more interesting, confusing, complex, and serious set of forces. For example, what are China's strategic objectives? Long before answering China's military developments, one must have answers to that far more important question.

You have hit the nail on the head, TW. If we understand China's strategic objectives, the reasons for China's actions will become clear.

China has not developed the stealth bomber just so they can flip the US government the bird.

Historically, China has always been xenophobic. In more recent times the atrocities visited upon China by Japan in WWII and now the terrorist attacks of 9/11 have ensured that China is highly mistrustful of other nations.

It is important for the Chinese goverment to overcome forces for separatism, extremism, and terrorism which are rampant in some parts of China and which challenge both China's economic prosperity and government stability.

China would also like to develop oil markets for itself in Central Asia and other regions. This has become even more important due to poor Chinese-Russian energy relations.

As far as being able to obtain the necessary materials to produce highly destructive weapons, that's a global problem, not just a Chinese one.

[Undertoad]

All that AND when you look at a map, China is surrounded by competitors on all borders, who have changed at different rates. They have nations on three different sides who are on the Most Likely To Suddenly Become Assholes list. Any nation would look at that map and figure they need to be able to get serious.

Until they have an entry on the list of aircraft carriers in service, they can't project force on a global basis.

[glatt]

So why doesn't China have an aircraft carrier?

How long does it take to build up a navy? The are growing really fast. They have basically pulled themselves into the modern world by their bootstraps in a decade. You'd think that would have included a navy.