I'm getting grumpy.

[Griff]

I feel a major funk coming on, why you ask?

1) For some reason governments failure to protect air travelers and working people at the WTC has created support for federalizing more workers and ratcheting up the police state through a terrorism bill.

2) All this paranoia about anthrax lead by the war mongering media is starting to bug me. I don't know what its like in urban America but out here in the woods we find the danger absurdly over-blown.

3) The disconnect in so many peoples heads that terror perpetrated by government in our name is somehow different to the victims from terror perpetrated by NGO's.

4) Our self-styled free market president is subsidizing airlines and generally pissing tax dollars into the wind (he he picturing the spritz on his cowboy boots) because of a falling economy which was probably exacerbated by easy money policies in the nineties.

5) We are entering a war for peace which is totally open ended, without an identifiable enemy, only vague "evil-doers". I want our troops to be the best armed and best trained in the world but I don't want to see their lives squandered over some fuzzy goal.

6) That we could actually create an Office of Homeland Security without so much as a peep of dissent.

7) We had an opportunity to reduce our overseas military engagement with a president who supposedly felt we were over-committed and suddenly when our interventionist chickens come home to roost we are compelled to increase empire not reduce it.

8) The same folks who work hard to reduce gun ownership and carrying are now celebrating the bravery of air travelers who had to die to crash a plane that couldn't have been taken in the first place without a disarmed public.

9) We are creating more haters with each misdirected bomb.

10) The worst thing is that I generally agree with Bin Ladens stated goals (not I repeat NOT his methods), stop bombing and starving Iraq, quit being Israels bitch, and get our troops out of Saudi Arabia. I find our agreement on those goals terribly distressing.

PS remember any replies will be noted and your subsequent activities will be monitored under the new anti-terrorism rules. putting on Bill of Rights VOID WHERE PROHIBITTED BY LAW t-shirt and closing blast door.

[verbatim]

Originally posted by Griff
2) All this paranoia about anthrax lead by the war mongering media is starting to bug me. I don't know what its like in urban America but out here in the woods we find the danger absurdly over-blown.

im a bit sick of all the media attention myself. anthrax, la-de-da. i mean, i need to know about the post office worker going home with the flu and dying the next day, but other than that i dont wanna hear about it. ive stopped watching nbc, msnbc (i know, msn. i dont care, its good news) and whatnot. its all hard rock on the radio or cartoon network on tv.



there is a new show on cartoon network, its called zoids. its more of a fighting show than something like voltron (the greatest). its got my props, but it could use some plot maturing. 4:30pmET--watch it

[jaguar]

8) The same folks who work hard to reduce gun ownership and carrying are now celebrating the bravery of air travelers who had to die to crash a plane that couldn't have been taken in the first place without a disarmed public.

ummm.....If you think people should be able to carry guns on planes for safty (that is all passangers i assume) i think you should think about that for a moment....

4) Our self-styled free market president is subsidizing airlines and generally pissing tax dollars into the wind (he he picturing the spritz on his cowboy boots) because of a falling economy which was probably exacerbated by easy money policies in the nineties.

Always makes me laugh, free encomony, the consitution! These straw hats held up every time for patriotic spirit, clearly explains the goverment undermining one and shitting on the other. sort of like "free economy! as long as our companies are winning...." "we gotta protect teh constitution so lets forfit half of it"

[Undertoad]

2) The media and government overreaction was necessary to allay the worst possible fears of a public that is already looking to cancel Halloween. The complete education may now prevent them from stopping Thanksgiving and Christmas. Just think of what it'd be like if the facts were coldly presented WITHOUT the followup of attention and details. And stopping Thanksgiving and Christmas would kinda put a damper on all that economic recovery, which had better kick in sometime soon.

5) The fact that the al queda is vague is up to them, not us. The biggest problem is that getting to the al queda is always said to be some sort of first step. Certainly there is political support right now for doing that. The whole question will then boil down to what the social climate is like once that's done. I'm not sure how you sell staying in the middle east after that.

Clearly the inability of anyone in the administration to define a specific endgame other than the ending of all terrorism everywhere. Well, obviously that's not going to happen, so what's the REAL endgame, guys? Everyone knows you have to have a defined mission with a goal.

But I suppose I don't even blame them for being loose with this matter. The big problem is that the rest of the world has to sign on too.

But to face the really big picture, none of any of that matters if all of NATO, Russia, AND China are playing on the same side. Enough of the tiles are one color on the "Risk" board.

One of the CNN guys noted today that Putin was one of the first to offer support after WTC, and actually stopped a military exercise they were having just so there'd be no confusion. That's totally amazing: the Russians went out of their way. After they said thanks but not thanks to us when we offered to help get their sub...

Point is, I guess, the administration has to decide whether there's enough political capital not only in the US, but overseas as well, and that's a lotta balls to be juggling.

But the nice thing about this war is that the boogieman enemy is better than the previous boogieman enemies. It's not on your own citizens, that's a big plus. It's not against the other half of the entire world, another big plus. Sometimes I have felt that the politicians have wanted to stoke the human urge to war - for whatever reason than the voters like to see them doing something. Well, finally a war with some moral grounds to it - at least for now.

[Hubris Boy]

Griff, I'm glad you posted this. It was reassuring to see that I'm not the only one. I've had a bad case of the queasies for the last few weeks, and I was startin' to think my naturally paranoid nature was getting the better of me.

The "Office of Homeland Security" scares me to death. I understand the short-term need to have some sort of "czar" coordinating the activities of the various Federal agencies. My concern is that the OHS will become a permanent institution, and what that institution could mutate into. Do we really want the combined resources of the ATF-FBI-NSA-CIA-NRO all rolled into one tidy package? God forbid.

I'm not as worried as you are about our actions in Afghanistan. I think we're on the right track, as long as our goals remain A) the decapitation of Al-Qaeda, and B) the destabilization of the Taliban government. I'm more afraid of "mission creep"... that we'll get drawn into a protracted ground war in the area or, worse, get stuck there in a "peacekeeping" role.

Your #10 made me grin. It's appalling to find yourself in agreement with bin Laden on anything, isn't it? Well... like my old granddaddy used to say: "Even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then."

I agree with you, though, on two out of three:

• Bring the boys (and girls) home from Saudi Arabia (except for the ones who maintain the prepositioned equipment that we stockpile there).
• Pimp-slap the Israelis and TELL them to get their army and their illegal settlements out of the West Bank, and if they don't like it they can say good-bye to a billion dollars a year in direct aid and another billion dollars a year in loan guarantees.

Not sure about Iraq, though I hate half measures. If we're going to bomb them, let's do it. Otherwise, let's go home. A decade of half-heartedly enforcing a stupid "no-fly zone" is long enough.

Whew. I feel better now. Cathartic to get it off your chest now & then, isn't it?

[jaguar]

Your #10 made me grin. It's appalling to find yourself in agreement with bin Laden on anything, isn't it? Well... like my old granddaddy used to say: "Even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then."

nail on the head =)

Iraq is odd, they don't like saddam but he's probably better than the Taliban-style regime that would replace him. Similar to the revolution in Iran..

One thing hat got me was aTime poll about bombings. One of the questions was: Should we bomb Saddam and Liberia as well. The majority answered yes, the general feelings seemed to be that someone had fucked us around so lets just bomb all the bad guys regardless, distrubing.

[Griff]

Thanks guys, that was cathartic. I just needed to type it all out so I could look at it. I really wouldn't mind seeing the Taliban fall, of course the devil you know is always better than the devil you don't, (if we're dipping into Grandaddyisms).

Jag on 8) have I got an L. Neil Smith novel for you.

Caught a news blurb this morning apparently some of the anthrax was treated to remain airbourne, a process (we are told) which has only been successfully done in the US, Russia, and you guessed it... Iraq.

Hard rock and cartoons may be the answer at that. Lets see, kids are watching Scooby Doo and Power Puff Girls these days, that should do it. G

[russotto]

Originally posted by Hubris Boy
[*]Pimp-slap the Israelis and TELL them to get their army and their illegal settlements out of the West Bank, and if they don't like it they can say good-bye to a billion dollars a year in direct aid and another billion dollars a year in loan guarantees.

What illegal settlements? The West Bank is Israel's by right of conquest.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by russotto
What illegal settlements? The West Bank is Israel's by right of conquest.

But they gave the Sinai back to Egypt.

If there is to be ANY peace between Israel and the Arab world, it will have to be given back. It was conquered during war and as such, should be given back. Israel is going to have to get over not having the West Bank and a united Jerusalem. The Arab world will have to get over the fact that Israel is going nowhere.

[Griff]

Apologizing in advance, I dumped this link in a different thread but it fits better here. One politician gets it.

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/co...1/cr102501.htm

[warch]

Wow. Thanks Griff. Having lived in TX, I'm a bit surprised but heartened to learn Paul hails from there.

USA Patriot Act of 2001. Eeek. hang on to your hats.

[tw]

Originally posted by russotto
What illegal settlements? The West Bank is Israel's by right of conquest.

Originally posted by sycamore
If there is to be ANY peace between Israel and the Arab world, it will have to be given back. It was conquered during war and as such, should be given back.

The above is irrelevant. UN Resolution 242 and the Oslo Accords superceed all discussion. UN 242 even mandates that half of Jerusalem become the Palestinian capital. Indeed if that could have happened, then both sides would have to coexist.

Alas, a dichead Prime Minister of Israel and his extremist right wing supporters (ie. the Likud party) do everything they can to subvert UN242 - including the intentional violation of Islam holy land just so he could become Prime Minister. Just another example of how extremists create instability so as to advance themselves. Anyone who did not see the similarities to Hilter's tactics probably has ostrich feathers.

One overt action is to steal Palestinian land by shady police tactics, then establish illegal Jewish settlements east of Jerusalem. Therefore right wing extremists demand the rest of East Jerusalem to "protect our West Bank Settlements". All decent peoples of the world should demand what we forced extremist right wing Jews to due in the Siani. They had to take down all illegal Jewish settlements that were also in direct violation of UN 242. Do you remember those news stories?

Right wing Zionist extremists overtly steal the land. But most Americans don't even know of UN Resolution 242 yet alone know the reason for all those illegal Israeli settlements. Settlements are there in direct violation of international law. There is no way around that point.

Jewish settlements are illegal and were banned by decent Jewish governments (all non-Likud governments). But under Likud, all crimes against non-Jews are legal. No exaggeration. All crimes against non-Jews are legal as long as the world does not daily accuse Israel of being a racist society (in the traditions of the old S Africa).

An example- how extremists steal the land: Proclaim that Jews may travel a road to an illegal West Bank settlement. Hypothesize that a Jew might be shot at by a terrorists. Therefore emergency police actions are implemented. All the Palestinian farmer's Olive trees that take three years just to mature are cut down.

The farmer is never reinbursed (even though Jewish farmers are for the same action - as ABC News demonstrated). Why should they reinburse? The real purpose is to put the farm into tax delinguency, then steal his land for unpaid taxes. How can the farmer, whose family has been there before there was an Israel, pay those taxes? He can't now that the existist right wing government, led by a dichead, has stolen the Palestinian's income. This is a regular act on the West Bank - where the purpose is to steal land by using the law.

Libertarians such as Russotto should be outraged by this action. But he does not even acknowledge UN 242 yet alone these examples. A true Libertarian would stand up for basic human rights; would stand up for the Palestinians. But instead he posted irrelevant information.

So what does a Palestinian son do? His future has been stolen. Make himself into a human bomb and go into Jerusalem. It just plays into the hands of people who create murder and mayhem only to advance themselves - extremists. Ariel Sharon, who even become Prime Minister by single handedly restarting the intafada. Create instability to advance oneself. Destroy people's lives to advance Zionism. Sharon gets a hard-on everytime more Palestinian owned property is stolen - especially east of Jerusalem. To say a nice word about Ariel Sharon is to praise Hitler.

UN Resolution 242. The previous posts were obviously irrelevant if UN 242 was understood. What the Prime Minsiter dichead is intentionally doing would also be obvious years ago if Americans only understood Sharon's Zionist objectives.

In a previous post, Man vs Tank, the long argument with Adam Zion subtley demonstrated an intent even among moderate Jews. He, like so many other Jews I have since tested, refused to discuss UN Resolution 242. He often refused to respost relevant parts of my posts that included UN 242. The less we talk about 242, the less Americans will come to the defense of Palestinians. Did you know that UN 242 demands East Jersusalem as the Palestinian capital?

UN Resolution 242 says that Jewish west bank settlements are illegal by international law. UN Resolution 242 is the basis of the Oslo Accords. It is why Prime Minister dichead and his right wing Nazi-like party do everything possible to destroy UN Resolution 242 and the Oslo Accords. The Oslo Accords were a major reason why Likud had Prime Minister Rabin murdered. Don't fool yourself. Major Likud Party leaders openly advocated the "removal" of Rabin. Do you remember continued references to those calls during Rabin's funeral? There was no doubt what "removal" meant.

Right wing Zionists are dedicated to the destruction of UN Resolution 242 and to the destruction of the entire Oslo Accord. George Jr's "hands off" actions only played into the gameplan of Nazi-like, right wing, extremist, Likud ambitions. Now is a great time to take more of the West Bank. It is why Sharon's (US made) tanks attacks Nablus and Bethlehem - knowning full well that a President without backbone will not stop him.

Sharon has just thrown the finger, this week, into George Jr's face. George did nothing. Expect Israeli air attacks against Palestinians - a clear escalation because the US President shows no balls when he uses armour.

Now that the Arab world has an Arabic CNN that reports the above daily, then just wait to see what happens in Afghanistan. Again Sharon will create instability to advance himself - at our expense. He is only doing what he has done his entire life.

Remember the USS Liberty? Where was Ariel Sharon then? Listen to how the US is losing the propaganda war. A president with balls would have reined in his 'bought and paid for' attack dog. That is if the President was a friend to the Arab world. Sharon will advance himself again at our expense when this propaganda war creates more problems for America. Be very scared that a very hawkish American Deputy Sec of Defense also wants to use this instability and uncertainty to attack Iraq. These quiet times can be the most dangerous - especially when you are too busy watching for Anthrax.

[elSicomoro]

This is Resolution 242 for the less intelligent of us.

The previous posts were obviously
irrelevant if UN 242 was understood.

Truth be told, I was actually thinking of the original partition plan from the late 40s.

You know tw, your intelligence is worthy, but your arrogance disturbing. I sure as hell didn't agree with russotto, but I could understand where he was coming from. There are better ways to enlighten people, other than practically insulting them.

[jaguar]

Jag on 8) have I got an L. Neil Smith novel for you.

Name?
I've run out of Evelin Wargh and Ben Elton books so i'm looking for something new.

[tw]

Originally posted by sycamore
You know tw, your intelligence is worthy, but your arrogance disturbing. I sure as hell didn't agree with russotto, but I could understand where he was coming from. There are better ways to enlighten people, other than practically insulting them.

I see no arrogance nor insult directed your way. The point remains as it has been argued here previously. If Russotto knew (or accepted) UN 242, then he would not have posted an inaccurate statement. He has made this statement before, was confronted by UN 242, could not dispute it, but now reposts the same erroneous statement. IOW I cannot understand where Russotto comes from except to deny the UN has any relevance. IOW he would have to declare international law as null and void.

If you see any arrogance - and I do not - then maybe you walked into the middle of an ongoing argument - or are reading emotion into something where emotion does not exist? I can see where another might say it is arrogent to cite UN 242. But that arrogance is simply the reader's emotional interpretation of what is read. Posted was that the previous posts are irrelevant because of UN 242 - nothing more. Any emotion implied in that statement would be from the reader; not in the post. UN 242 makes those previous posts irrelevant. Where is emotion in that?

Previously, search engines would not locate UN 242. How did you find it?