Those Bad Ol' Iraqis?

[Perry Winkle]

I can't find the quote about being careful about starting a fight, because you cannot chose when it ends.

So here's a word from old Nicky that I think fits our situation in Iraq:
"Whoever conquers a free town and does not demolish it commits a great error and may expect to be ruined himself."

[tw]

Originally Posted by bluesdave

It is not that simple any more. You cannot isolate Afghanistan from the equation. Iran and Pakistan tie the two together. The situation is so complicated now, that you cannot only consider Iraq.

Continuing the mistakes in Iraq rather than maintaining a status quo; rather than do what the informed have been saying (as paraphrased in the Iraq Study Group) means Afghanistan may be right behind Iraq. Taking the we fear all mentality; automatically labeling everyone in black and white; for example, automatically labeling Iran as an enemy; will only lead to more American deaths and further loss of American influence.

One should never forget who the wild card in that region is and who the greatest threat to American interests is: Pakistan.

Ironic that a closest American ally is also a greatest threat? Not just a liability - a threat. As bluesdave notes, the situation is so complicated now which is also why the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group demanded coordinated actions from most of the American government. But how many understood how complicated as to understand that Pakistan (not Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Turkey, or the K'stan nations) is the greatest threat - the big wild card.

As long as we continue this status quo, then the potential threat of, around, and in Pakistan only becomes larger. Status quo ("Mission Accomplished") is a guaranteed source of things worse. That was made quite clear from the Iraq Study Group.

One need only learn lessons of history. The Wise Men said a same thing in Vietnam. So we ignored that hard reality out of fear - as if might makes right. It only meant 30,000 massacred Americans, millions of massacred Vietnamese, and even created the killing fields in Cambodia. Welcome to what happened in 1968 when we did in Vietnam what we are now doing in Iraq - maintaining the status quo only because no one in American power was willing to accept hard facts.

[bluesdave]

tw, you are quite correct about fearing Pakistan, but I do not think you should dismiss Iran. You can also add Syria for that matter, though its influence is mainly in Lebanon and Palestine, and to a lesser extent, Iraq. There is no doubt in my mind that one day we will have to get out (of Iraq). What worries me, is: 1, the method of our withdrawal, and 2, what sort of mess will be left behind. I know that we can take the stand of who cares, it's not our country, but we took it upon ourselves to invade both countries, so whether we agreed or disagreed with the original actions of our governments, we as people, have a moral obligation to the Iraqis and Afghanis. Iran has also put itself into the equation. It is not a silent, neutral observer.

We should have concentrated on Afghanistan, and Bin Laden in the first place, and left Iraq for another day.

[tw]

Originally Posted by bluesdave

tw, you are quite correct about fearing Pakistan, but I do not think you should dismiss Iran. You can also add Syria for that matter, though its influence is mainly in Lebanon and Palestine, and to a lesser extent, Iraq. There is no doubt in my mind that one day we will have to get out (of Iraq). What worries me, is: 1, the method of our withdrawal, and 2, what sort of mess will be left behind.

If falling for myths and lies from George Jr, then Syria and Iran are major threats. They weren't until George Jr decided to make them enemies. For example, what American ally was providing intelligence to the US? Syria. So when did Syria become this big menace? When George Jr decided to terminate the relationship by hyping 'black and white', 'good and evil', 'god told me what to do' rhetoric.

Iran was a cooperative nation while slowly doing as Libya was to become a closer friend of America. This infuriated the Project for a New American Century whose viewpoints are based in political agendas rather than in reality. Iran could not have been more cooperative after 11 September and the Afghan invasion. Did you know that or did you instead only hear lies from the George Jr administration? Do you know why Iran was so cooperative? Reasons could not have been more obvious.

Well Syria and Iran are a problem only because of a mental midget (actually Cheney) who sees evil everywhere - cannot view the world in perspectives. The Iranian reform movement? All but killed by George Jr's declaration of war - the axis of evil speech. But again, if you did not recognized that on the minute he gave that speech, then you did not yet grasp the world.

Neither Syria nor Iran is a threat any greater than the K'stan nations. Turkey is also a threat on the same scale because of Turkey's attitude towards Kurdistan and because America's second or third closest ally in NATO has become so anti-American thanks to the mental midget and his 'big dics'. Let's not forget Israel who will invade a nation at the 'drop of a hat' using the same logic that justified "Mission Accomplished". Israel is also a threat as serious as Syria and Iran.

By far, the most dangerous situation is Pakistan. Far more dangerous than any other nation in the region and maybe the most dangerous in the entire world. But again, it demands that one first discount all those George Jr myth and lies. That is not easy in an America that, for example, remains completely ignorant of a massive American military buildup apparently to attack someone next month. Why does the world know of this buildup when Americans do not? Why are my sources about this other 'surge' only from foreign sources - not from American sources? It demonstrates how easily the Americans are also fooled by myths about Syria and Iran.

Last year at this time, many Americans also foolishly believed N Korea was a threat. Again lies and myths from George Jr's administration. Notice that suddenly N Korea is now getting what it always wanted. Did you know what they were asking for? A return to the same agreement that Jimmy Carter negotiated back in mid 1990s. Did you notice this administration that destroyed that agreement is now suddenly restoring it? Why? Because the only thing that changed - George Jr's people finally saw some reality rather than know using wacko extremist 'big dic' thinking. China or South Korea may have finally brought sanity back to George Jr's administration. It certainly was not Cheney. And it certainly was not the lightweight Condi Rice.

Fears of Syria and Iran are just as unfounded once we remove George Jr propaganda. Yes, both are unacceptable to American principles. But then so are most nations in Africa that America is so supportive of. Need I name Nigeria? Why are we also not threatening Sudan that is far worse? Well again, what they won't tell you. We do back room deals with Sudan for information. Therefore Sudan really does not massacre anyone of consequence. Did you see the Sudan leaders laughing at the opening ceremonies for the UN when George Jr gave his speech denouncing Sudan? Do you know why they were laughing? If not, it also explains why they have you foolishly believing the myths about Iran and Syria.

I suspect almost everyone here has no idea how serious Pakistan really is. But again, how many still believe anything from the George Jr administration that routinely downplays that threat. It goes to what you use as news sources. I guarantee that anyone who defined Fox News as a news source has zero idea about anything above.

[tw]

Originally Posted by bluesdave

There is no doubt in my mind that one day we will have to get out (of Iraq). What worries me, is: 1, the method of our withdrawal, and 2, what sort of mess will be left behind. I know that we can take the stand of who cares, it's not our country, but we took it upon ourselves to invade both countries, so whether we agreed or disagreed with the original actions of our governments, we as people, have a moral obligation to the Iraqis and Afghanis.

Deal with realities. The Iraqis must now make decisions. Only Iraqis can decide to expand the civil war or suddenly decide they need one another. Biggest reason that Sunnis and Shia are ethnic cleansing each other - we created the problem and our presence only exasperated it. From the Iraq Study Group:

34: The question of the future U.S. force presence must be on the table for discussion as the national reconciliation dialogue takes place. Its inclusion will increase the likelihood of participation by insurgents and militia leaders, and thereby increase the possibilities for success.

Even after the United States has moved all combat brigades out of Iraq, we would maintain a considerable military presence in the region

Further, adding more American troops could conceivably worsen those aspects of the security problem that are fed by the view that the U.S. presence is intended to be a long-term “occupation.”

That means assisting from a distance - American troops out of the city - and with the US as part of a large neutral nation presence. That means nation building - exactly what the Project for New American Century condemns and yet exactly what is well known as necessary where intelligent people reside.

That large American embassy demolished when we don't intend to occupy Iraq - make it a territory like Guam. Don't fool yourself. That embassy is that large because we intend to micromanage Iraq - just like Nam.

Iraq still needs American presence to protect its national integrity from invasion; ie from Turkey. But if Iraqis want civil war, then the massive more deaths are necessary. Any government imposed on the people either fails or is a dictatorship. If they have to fight in the streets like in Lebanon, then Americans must step back; let it happen, and acknowledge all that blood is on American hands. These conclusions cannot be changed by America. Time to avoid this was in 2002. A lesson from Israel in Lebanon. No way around what we have created and cannot change.

Iraq cannot be won. The question is how great will that loss be. By end of 2007, if the question is not decided, then America must leave - let them murder each other like American also lets it happen in Darfur, Chad, Somolia, and other places.

Meanwhile, every day we stay in Iraq is another day we are losing a justified war in Afghanistan. Afghanistan needs hundreds of thousands in country this year. Our backs are against the wall. The defeat that may occur in the next decade apparently is being decided this year. And because so many want to fix what cannot be fixed by Americans in Iraq, then Afghanistan may also go down as an American defeat.

We are in a desperate situation in Afghanistan for the same reasons why 1968 sealed the American defeat in Nam. Do you see the parallels between 1968 Nam and Afghanistan today? They are stunningly same.

[bluesdave]

tw, I don't believe what Bush and Cheney say. Cheney is barely short of a criminal, and Bush is, well, not the brightest penny in the bunch, but independent reports that I have heard, and seen through the BBC and various European documentary makers, have said that Iran and Syria are supporting insurgents in Iraq. Also, do not forget that the US backed Saddam in his war against Iran, and they have not forgotten that. I think the death toll in just the Iranian military was over 700,000. The relationship between Iran and the West has been strained for years. GWB and Cheney have made it worse.

I already agreed with you that Pakistan is a problem, but we can't take on another battle in the midst of the two existing ones. Apart from that I agree with most of what you say.

[tw]

Originally Posted by bluesdave

I already agreed with you that Pakistan is a problem, but we can't take on another battle in the midst of the two existing ones. Apart from that I agree with most of what you say.

There is no reason to believe any war with Iran is necessary. Cooperation with Iran's government has repeatedly demonstrated they do not want war and they do not want instability on their borders. The Iraq Study Group makes that same point - in direct contradiction to rhetoric about Iran trying to create instability. Just another reason why George Jr would not even read the ISG report. Again, eliminate the George Jr / Cheney rhetoric; and Iran is ripe for American friendship - a task that will take about 20 years.

For example, during "Mission Accomplished", Iran unilaterally told America that American warplanes crashing on Iranian soil could even be rescued by Americans; Iran would cooperate fully. Only friends make such offers. Why do such unilateral attempts to be cooperative not get reported? Iran is not the threat speculated. Those who promote this 'axis of evil' myth are the threat.

Are Iranians, et al supporting insurgents in Iraq? Yes, exactly like US supported the IRA in UK. Your post about Iranian and Syrian support for Iraqi insurgency is only possible if you also blame America for IRA attacks on the British. You cannot have it both ways. Either America was the enemy of UK, or insurgency support from Iran and Syria are from the same type of people in America.

If Iran and Syria are monolithic - and that is what Cheney must have you believe - then you see things in 'black and white'. Meanwhile, why do Iraqi insurgents have so much money to buy weapons from criminal elements? Where do you think all those $billions of American $100 bills went to? Where do you think multiple tractor trailers of American $100 from Saddam's Treasury went? And that is only a small part of insurgent financing.

Cheney et al must have you blame all of Iran which is total nonsense once we eliminate their rhetoric. No country is monolithic. Otherwise you must blame the United States for being, by far, the largest supporters of IRA terrorism in Britain. But then I am only reposting this same reality for how many years now?

Again my point. The Iranian government is responsible for attacks on Americans due to myths by same people who claimed Saddam had WMDs. Once we limit this discussion to reality, an Iranian insurgency in Iraq completely disappears. The insurgency is almost all Iraqis - hundreds or thousands of different groups. Especially those created by Bremer when we fired the police, military, teachers, government workers, telephone people, water department employees, etc. Iran had nothing to do with that. Americans created it.

Iranian supported insurgency in Iraq is as real as George Jr administration honesty. Al Qaeda in Iraq? At what point do we ignore that myth from George Jr? That Al Qaeda is also believed by those who have respect for Cheney. Al Qaeda in Iraq is mostly a George Jr lie. This Iranian supported insurgency is a myth from the same liars. Iranian supported insurgency is completely contrary to what the Iran nation wants and needs. But it sure is profitable for mafia types.

So ask yourself where all those American provided $100 bills - tons of pallets of $100 bill - where do you think they went? Remember Vietnam: who was large supplier of the Viet Cong? Americans. Nixon also forgot to mention that part to promote lies.

Iran is far from a threat, but can be as long as we keep hyping George Jr lies. What makes Iran any danger? That 2002 'axis of evil' speech from George Jr.

[bluesdave]

Originally Posted by tw

There is no reason to believe any war with Iran is necessary. Cooperation with Iran's government has repeatedly demonstrated they do not want war and they do not want instability on their borders.

I do not disagree with the principle of co-operation, but with Iran (as with Pakistan and Syria), it is a dangerous path.

Iranian supported insurgency in Iraq is as real as George Jr administration honesty. Al Qaeda in Iraq? At what point do we ignore that myth from George Jr? That Al Qaeda is also believed by those who have respect for Cheney. Al Qaeda in Iraq is mostly a George Jr lie. This Iranian supported insurgency is a myth from the same liars. Iranian supported insurgency is completely contrary to what the Iran nation wants and needs. But it sure is profitable for mafia types.

Nevertheless, Iran is supporting Shiite insurgents in Iraq. I am not supporting GWB, but the facts are undeniable. Coincidently tonight on one of our news broadcasts, they covered a UN summit which is discussing/debating the problems in Iraq, and both Iran and Syria are mentioned frequently. Do you say that the UN is wrong? The same group that has often criticised US policy, and has been pushing for a peaceful solution for years.

So ask yourself where all those American provided $100 bills - tons of pallets of $100 bill - where do you think they went? Remember Vietnam: who was large supplier of the Viet Cong? Americans.

I could teach you about Vietnam, tw. I studied Vietnamese history even while we were still dropping bombs on them. Ho Chi Minh was a long time supporter of the US, and was shocked that the US would not support his dream of driving out the European imperialists (the French), because his forces had rescued hundreds of American troops during WW2. He thought that the US was a friend, not realising that his communist leanings would mark him as an enemy to the extreme right wing elements of the US government. He was desperate for help, and communist China and the USSR (but mainly China), were the only countries willing to help.

BTW, I escaped being conscripted and sent to Vietnam by the skin of my teeth, so lecturing me on Vietnam will get you nowhere.

Iran is far from a threat, but can be as long as we keep hyping George Jr lies. What makes Iran any danger? That 2002 'axis of evil' speech from George Jr.

Nup. Whether it was caused by ideological differences, or direct action, Iran hates America, and Americans to the bone. Their nuclear programme at this time is a joke (North Korea even more so), but Iran does supply conventional weapons and money to insurgents in Iraq and Palestine.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I wonder if they recorded the serial numbers on that 363 tons of $100 bills? I would be interesting to see where they end up.

[kerosene]

www.wheresgeorge.com might tell you

[xoxoxoBruce]

Is there a where's Ben dot com?

[tw]

Originally Posted by bluesdave

Nevertheless, Iran is supporting Shiite insurgents in Iraq. I am not supporting GWB, but the facts are undeniable. ...

Nup. Whether it was caused by ideological differences, or direct action, Iran hates America, and Americans to the bone. Their nuclear programme at this time is a joke (North Korea even more so), but Iran does supply conventional weapons and money to insurgents in Iraq and Palestine.

Then these facts are also undeniable. The US was intentionally supporting the IRA in Britain. You cannot have it both ways. The US support for the IRA was exactly same as Iran's support is for Iraqi insurgents. Exactly. What you call Iran support for insurgents is exactly the same support that the US provided the IRA to bomb British citizens.

Where is this reality denied? Where people who hate George Jr also believe his lies.

Your post only makes sense if you assume American and Iranian criminal elements are also called the American and Iranian governments. Again, you have painted all Americans and all Iranians with a common brush. Even this mythical hate of America by all Iranians - only possible when thinking monolithically. You have now said America's government supported the IRA and that Iran's government supports all Iraqi insurgents. That is your monolithic conclusion.

Nothing is monolithic. Or do you claim the Iranian government and US government both supported terrorism? Why is the US mafia a same entity as the United States government? Clearly, US could not supply the IRA without American government cooperation. Therefore the US government financed and armed the IRA. This is exactly what you have posted about Iran.

Iran is only a great threat where George Jr rhetoric is promoted. All Americans who hate George Jr can still fall for his lies. After all, we did not impeach George Jr for one good reason. He is such as good liar that even his enemies believe what he says. How is Iranian hatred of America - expressed just like it was in Vietnam - proof that all Iranians hate Americans? Notice how the Vietnamese so hated Americans as to not get enough of Clinton. Since those Vietnamese proclaimed the same hate of America, then they would swarm to meet Americans?

Iran hates America and Americans to the bone. Only the brainwashed could say that. George Jr is such as good spinner of propaganda that he even got you to believe it - in direct contradiction to what international reporters find in the streets of Tehran. Eliminate that one lie and Iran is no big threat. Iran is a little threat. Pakistan is reams more a threat once we eliminate the hate – promoted by George Jr and Limbaugh lies – that Iranians hate Americans to the bone. Where is the 'hate' of American greater? In Pakistan.

Where is the hatred of America among the intelligent? Even among America's closest allies, the majority hate one thing American - the George Jr administration. They can also hate Americans for reelecting the scumbag. Eliminate George Jr and his Limbaugh liars - then we only have Pakistan to worry about - the big threat that makes Iran microscopic by comparision.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I wonder if they recorded the serial numbers on that 363 tons of $100 bills? I would be interesting to see where they end up.

Even before "Mission Accomplished" began, George Jr had spread so many $100 bills in northern Iraq that a cup of coffee sold for $100. Yes, that is how much money America has spread throughout Iraq with no accounting.

Only later did Americans distribute money by pallets - not by backpacks. But then Cheney said, "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter".

[piercehawkeye45]

It wouldn't be hard to believe that Iran hates America. Look at the history of America's intervention with Iran's politics. I would be pissed at the US if I were them too.

[JayMcGee]

Of course Iran hates America..... and so do the majority of Middle east states.

Why?

Israel.

The Middle East problem will not be solved until the US re-evauates its policy via-a-vis Israel.