Vaccination & epidemic

[Clodfobble]

1.Vaccines do not overwhelm the immune system. Although the infant immune system is relatively naive, it is immediately capable of generating a vast array of protective responses; even conservative estimates predict the capacity to respond to thousands of vaccines simultaneously

The idea is not that it overwhelms the immune system, it is that it artificially overstimulates it. It is not the viruses that are the problem, as indeed, babies encounter viruses every day. It is the adjuvants which deliberately induce an overreaction of the immune system, and they are not substances the average baby would come in contact with at all.

Also, although the number of recommended childhood vaccines has increased during the past 30 years, with advances in protein chemistry and recombinant DNA technology, the immunologic load has actually decreased. The 14 vaccines given today contain <200 bacterial and viral proteins or polysaccharides, compared with >3000 of these immunological components in the 7 vaccines administered in 1980

Again, it is irrelevant that there are fewer bacteriological proteins in the number of vaccines today, as the number of adjuvant doses has gone up in precise accordance with the number of shots. As I have pointed out before, in countries where it is the norm to deliver the vaccinations through a breathing treatment, with no adjuvant necessary, the autism rate is vastly lower.

Further, vaccines represent a minute fraction of what a child’s immune system routinely navigates; the average child is infected with 4–6 viruses per year [32]. The immune response elicited from the vast antigen exposure of unattenuated viral replication supersedes that of even multiple, simultaneous vaccines.

A normal child, yes. Autistic children generally fall into one of two categories: either they are infected with 4-6 viruses about every two months (the immune system is not responding,) or they are infected with 0 viruses a year (the immune system is over-responding.)

3.Autism is not an immune‐mediated disease. Unlike autoimmune diseases such as multiple sclerosis, there is no evidence of immune activation or inflammatory lesions in the CNS of people with autism [38].

There is, in fact, plenty of evidence of immune activation and inflammatory lesions. The lesions are usually in the intestines. Here is a gastroenterologist's testimony on it before Congress, including pictures of said lesions from the pill cams that he routinely sends down his autistic patients' gullets.

4.No studies have compared the incidence of autism in vaccinated, unvaccinated, or alternatively vaccinated children (i.e., schedules that spread out vaccines, avoid combination vaccines, or include only select vaccines). These studies would be difficult to perform because of the likely differences among these 3 groups in health care seeking behavior and the ethics of experimentally studying children who have not received vaccines.

Right. No studies have been done, and our only excuse is because it would be unethical not to give vaccines, even to volunteers, because we are so certain they are good.

[Aliantha]

Right. No studies have been done, and our only excuse is because it would be unethical not to give vaccines, even to volunteers, because we are so certain they are good.

The issues here are obviously that if they did allow a study using volunteers, there are too many variables for starters. Secondly, what if the study did show that children who didn't receive vaccines were worse off? What do you think the outcome would be then? Lawsuits? Thirdly, unvaccinated children are less at risk of the diseases in vaccines because of the greater percentage of children covered. What do you think the infant mortality and/or permanent physical or neurological damage rate was prior to vaccination, and how can a real study be done when the circumstances of with and without vaccines is impossible?

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

The idea is not that it overwhelms the immune system, it is that it artificially overstimulates it. It is not the viruses that are the problem, as indeed, babies encounter viruses every day. It is the adjuvants which deliberately induce an overreaction of the immune system, and they are not substances the average baby would come in contact with at all.

Another way to think of adjuvants is: anything the immune system has to fight off. So if a baby eats a something off the ground, bam, probably several hundred adjuvants in it.

So: babies fighting off more stuff today? Or more 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago?

By the way, since we last talked about squalene, I've learned that the human body produces it normally, in the sebaceous glands.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

All higher organisms produce squalene, including humans. Squalene has been proposed to be a important part of the Mediterranean diet as it may be a chemopreventative substance that protects people from cancer.

Originally Posted by Clod

A normal child, yes. Autistic children generally fall into one of two categories: either they are infected with 4-6 viruses about every two months (the immune system is not responding,) or they are infected with 0 viruses a year (the immune system is over-responding.)

Now you've got my attention. Cite?

There is, in fact, plenty of evidence of immune activation and inflammatory lesions. The lesions are usually in the intestines.

The article suggested that lesions in the central nervous system, not the intestines, are the indicator of autoimmune disease that affects... the things that the nervous system runs! Is the article wrong?

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The article suggested that lesions in the central nervous system, not the intestines, are the indicator of autoimmune disease that affects behavior. Is the article wrong?

Yes. Because as I've said from the beginning, most if not all of the behaviors are not neurological at all, and not forcibly generated by the lesions; the behavior is in fact an entirely normal response to being in constant, searing pain 24 hours a day and being unable to communicate about it. Ask dar512 to describe his Crohn's pain at its worst, with no medications to help, and now pretend you are a toddler with no understanding of what is going on, and no way to tell anyone what hurts. Autistic kids beat their heads against walls because it is an over-sensory distraction from the pain. Autistic kids scream and fling themselves on the floor because they are in pain. Autistic kids can't focus on anything or remember anything they are taught partly because they are in pain. These are the behaviors that are improved with gastrointestinal interventions. There are other pieces to the treatment that must go hand-in-hand, but the gastrointestinal treatment is a big part of it.

My son is thrilled to be drinking his nasty-ass liquid formula all day long. You can hold out his favorite cookie and ask him if he wants it, and he will tell you no. Because he's not in pain anymore, and he's sharp enough to recognize what made him feel better. After only two weeks on the formula, he's suddenly starting to have honest-to-God conversations with me.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Now you've got my attention. Cite?

Personal experience for the most part. I know there are cites available, though, and I will try to find one for you later this afternoon. Gotta go get dinner started right now.

[Clodfobble]

I don't have access to any of the actual papers, but here is a complete list of cites regarding the autoimmune component of autism, and I bolded the ones that I would guess include examination of the over- or underactive attributes:



Ashwood P, Kwong C, Hansen R, Hertz-Picciotto I, Croen L, Krakowiak P, Walker W, Pessah IN, Van de Water J. Brief report: plasma leptin levels are elevated in autism: association with early onset phenotype? J Autism Dev Disord. 2008 Jan;38(1):169-75.

Ashwood P, et al. Spontaneous mucosal lymphocyte cytokine profiles in children with autism and gastrointestinal symptoms: mucosal immune activation and reduced counter regulatory interleukin-10. J Clin Immunol. 2004 Nov;24(6):664-73.

Ashwood P, Van de Water J. Is autism an autoimmune disease? Autoimmun Rev. 2004 Nov;3(7-8):557-62.

Ashwood P, et al. The immune response in autism: a new frontier for autism research. J Leuk Biol. 2006 Jul:80;1-15.

Bayary J, et al. Intravenous immunoglobulin in autoimmune disorders: an insight into the immunoregulatory mechanisms. Int Immunopharmacol. 2006 Apr;6(4):528-34.
Boris M, et al. Improvement in children treated with intravenous gamma globulin. J Nutr Environmental Med. Dec 2006; 15(4):1-8.

Boris M, et al. Effect of Pioglitazone treatment on behavioral symptoms in autistic children. J Neuroinflammation. 2007 Jan 5;4:3.

Bradstreet JJ, Smith S, Granpeesheh D, El-Dahr JM, Rossignol D. Spironolactone Might be a Desirable Immunologic and Hormonal Intervention in Autism Spectrum Disorders. Med Hypotheses. 2006 Dec 4.

Brandtzaeg P. Current Understanding of Gastrointestinal Immunoregulation and Its Relation to Food Allergy. Ann NY Acad Sci. 2002;964:14-45.

Braunschweig D, et al. Autism: Maternally derived antibodies specific for fetal brain proteins. Neurotoxicology. 2007 Nov 6.

Bray TM, Taylor CG. Enhancement of tissue glutathione for antioxidant and immune functions in malnutrition. Biochem Pharmacol. 1994 Jun 15;47(12):2113-23.

Cabanlit M, Wills S, Goines P, Ashwood P, Van de Water J. Brain-specific autoantibodies in the plasma of subjects with autistic spectrum disorder. Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2007 Jun;1107:92-103.

Cave SF. The history of vaccinations in the light of the autism epidemic. Altern Ther Health Med. 2008 Nov-Dec;14(6):54-7.

Chinetti G, Fruchart JC, Staels B. Peroxisome proliferators-activated receptors (PPAR): nuclear receptors at the crossroads between lipid metabolism and inflammation. Inflamm Res 2000;49:497-505.

Cohly HH, Panja A. Immunological findings in autism. Int Rev Neurobiol. 2005;71:317-41.

Chmelik, E., N. Awadallah, et al. (2004). Varied presentation of PANDAS: a case series. Clin Pediatr (Phila) 43(4): 379-82.

Connolly AM, Chez MG, Pestronk A, Arnold ST, Mehta S, Deuel RK. Serum autoantibodies to brain in Landau-Kleffner variant, autism, and other neurologic disorders. J Pediatr. 1999 May;134(5):607-13.

Croen LA, Grether JK, Yoshida CK, Odouli R, Van de Water J. Maternal autoimmune diseases, asthma and allergies, and childhood autism spectrum disorders: a case-control study. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005 Feb;159(2):151-7.

Croonenberghs J, Wauters A, Devreese K, Verkerk R, Scharpe S, Bosmans E, Egyed B, Deboutte D, Maes M. Increased serum albumin, gamma globulin, immunoglobulin IgG, and IgG2 and IgG4 in autism. Psychol Med. 2002 Nov;32(8):1457-63.

Croonenberghs J, et al. Activation of the inflammatory response system in autism. Neuropsychobiology 2002, 45(1):1-6.

Cross ML. Immune-signalling by orally-delivered probiotic bacteria: effects on common mucosal immunoresponses and protection at distal mucosal sites. Int J Immunopathol Pharmacol. 2004 May-Aug;17(2):127-34.

Dalton P, et al. Maternal neuronal antibodies associated with autism and a language disorder. Ann Neurol. 2003 Apr;53(4):533-7. DelGiudice-Asch G, Simon L, Schmeidler J, Cunningham-Rundles C, Hollander E. Brief report: A pilot open clinical trial of intravenous immunoglobulin in childhood autism. J Autism Dev Disord. 1999:29(2):157-60.

Denney DR, et al. Lymphocyte subsets and interleukin-2 receptors in autistic children. J Autism Dev Disord. 1996 Feb;26(1):87-97.

Dietert RR, Dietert JM. Potential for early-life immune insult including developmental immunotoxicity in autism and autism spectrum disorders: focus on critical windows of immune vulnerability.J Toxicol Environ Health B Crit Rev. 2008 Oct;11(8):660-80.

Drakes M, Blanchard T, Czinn S. Bacterial probiotic modulation of dendritic cells. Infect Immun. 2004 Jun;72(6):3299-309.

Droge W, Breitkreutz R. Glutathione and immune function. Proc Nutr Soc. 2000 Nov;59(4):595-600. Elchaar GM, Maisch NM, Augusto LM, Wehring HJ. Efficacy and safety of naltrexone use in pediatric patients with autistic disorder. Ann Pharmacother. 2006 Jun;40(6):1086-95.

Engstrom HA, Ohlson S, Stubbs EG, Maciulis A, Caldwell V, Odell JD, Torres A.R. Decreased Expression of CD95 (FAS/APO-1) on CD4+ T-lymphocytes from Participants with Autism. J Dev Phys Disabil. 2003 Jun 15;2:155-163(9).

Ferrante P, Saresella M, Guerini FR, Marzorati M, Musetti MC, Cazzullo AG. Significant association of HLA A2-DR11 with CD4 naive decrease in autistic children. Biomed Pharmacother. 2003 Oct;57(8):372-4.

Feinstein DL. Therapeutic potential of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor agonists for neurological disease. Diabetes Technol Ther. 2003;5(1):67-73.

Fudenberg HH. Dialysable lymphocyte extract (DLyE) in infantile onset autism: a pilot study. Biotherapy. 1996;9(1-3):143-7.

Furlano RI, et al. Autism and the immune system. J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 1997 Mar;38(3):337-49.Griem P., et al.; Allergic and autoimmune reactions to xenobiotics: how do they arise? Immunology Today 19: 133-141, 1998.

Gao HM, Hong JS. Why neurodegenerative diseases are progressive: uncontrolled inflammation drives disease progression. Trends Immunol. 2008 Aug;29(8):357-65.

Geier DA, Geier MR. A Clinical and Laboratory Evaluation of Methionine Cycle-Transsulfuration and Androgen Pathway Markers in Children with Autistic Disorders. Horm Res. 2006 Jul 5;66(4):182-188.

Geier DA, Mumper E, Gladfelter B, Coleman L, Geier MR. Neurodevelopmental disorders, maternal Rh-negativity, and Rho(D) immune globulins: a multi-center assessment. Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2008 Apr;29(2):272-80.

Griem P, et al. Allergic and autoimmune reactions to xenobiotics: how do they arise? Immunology Today 19: 133-141, 1998.

Gupta S. Immunological treatments for autism. J Autism Dev Disord. 2000 Oct;30(5):475-9.

Gupta S, Aggarwal S, Heads C. Dysregulated immune system in children with autism: beneficial effects of intravenous immune globulin on autistic characteristics. J Autism Dev Disord. 1996 Aug;26(4):439-52.

Gupta S, et al. Th1- and Th2-like cytokines in CD4+ and CD8+ T cells in autism. J Neuroimmunol. 1998 May 1;85(1):106-9.

Hamilton, RG, et al. In vitro assays for the diagnosis of IgE-mediated disorders. J Allergy Clin Immunol 114(2): 213-25.

Hertz-Picciotto I, Park HY, Dostal M, Kocan A, Trnovec T, Sram R. Prenatal exposures to persistent and non-persistent organic compounds and effects on immune system development. Basic Clin Pharmacol Toxicol. 2008 Feb;102(2):146-54.

Jyonouchi H, et al. Evaluation of an association between gastrointestinal symptoms and cytokine production against common dietary proteins in children with autism spectrum disorders. J Pediatr. 2005 May;146(5): 605-10.

Jyonouchi H, Geng L, Cushing-Ruby A, Quraishi H. Impact of innate immunity in a subset of children with autism spectrum disorders: a case control study. J Neuroinflammation. 2008 Nov 21;5(1):52.

Jyonouchi H, Sun S, Le H. Proinflammatory and regulatory cytokine production associated with innate and adaptive immune re-sponses in children with autism spectrum disorders and developmental regression. J Neuroimmunol. 2001 Nov 1;120(1-2):170-9.

Jyonouchi H, Sun S, Itokazu N. Innate immunity associated with inflammatory responses and cytokine production against common dietary proteins in patients with autism spectrum disorder. Neuropsychobiology. 2002;46(2):76-84.

Jyonouchi H, Geng L, Ruby A, Zimmerman-Bier B. Dysregulated innate immune responses in young children with autism spectrum disorders: their relationship to gastrointestinal symptoms and dietary intervention. Neuropsychobiology. 2005;51(2):77-85.

Kelly GS. Bovine colostrums: a review of clinical uses. Altern Med Rev. 2003 Nov;8(4):378-94.

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Kirjavainen PV, et al. New aspects of probiotics--a novel approach in the management of food allergy. Allergy. 1999 Sep;54(9):909.

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[Clodfobble]

Krause I, et al. Brief report: immune factors in autism: a critical review. J Autism Dev Disord. 2002 Aug;32(4):337-45.

Li X, et al. Elevated immune response in the brain of autistic patients. J Neuroimmunol. 2009 Jan 19.

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Meffert M, Baltimore D. Physiological Functions of brain NF-KB. Trends in Neurosciences. 2005;28(1):37-43.

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[Clodfobble]

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[Clodfobble]

:p

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Yes. Because as I've said from the beginning, most if not all of the behaviors are not neurological at all, and not forcibly generated by the lesions; the behavior is in fact an entirely normal response to being in constant, searing pain 24 hours a day and being unable to communicate about it. Ask dar512 to describe his Crohn's pain at its worst, with no medications to help, and now pretend you are a toddler with no understanding of what is going on, and no way to tell anyone what hurts. Autistic kids beat their heads against walls because it is an over-sensory distraction from the pain. Autistic kids scream and fling themselves on the floor because they are in pain. Autistic kids can't focus on anything or remember anything they are taught partly because they are in pain. These are the behaviors that are improved with gastrointestinal interventions. There are other pieces to the treatment that must go hand-in-hand, but the gastrointestinal treatment is a big part of it.

Yes neurological and yes biomedical treatment is a means of providing a healthy nervous system response but not a means to an end.


There are too many variables and too many levels of competency in individuals to lump all behaviors 'as attributed to pain.'

I've seen a lot of head bangers. Kickers screamers and hair pullers. yes Some were in pain because their stomach hurt but most were just pissed because the tag in the back of the t shirt tickled too much or someone wore perfume or maybe the light was too bright or someone was making noise.

And those are the bad behaviors. There are plenty of good behaviors too in association with autism and they are not gut related.

[edit] I should say that these people had no verbal communication skills. Not having any verbal communication skills or the ability to convey wants and needs is very frustrating and leads to aggressive and SIB behavior.

High functioning individuals have fewer episodes of aggression if behavior modification and training take place. A person who can self monitor their diet is even in a better place as far as positive behaviors but I've never seen a diet be the end all for a person/child with true autism.

Behaviors is a large vague word. Behaviors are multi faceted and interconnected on so many physiological levels.

I do agree that the stomach and intestines can be messed up and if curing/soothing/balancing that piece removes a child/person from the autism spectrum because all behaviors of that diagnosis no longer appear then that child never had autism to begin with.


I do get and see where you are coming from but saying most behaviors are not neurological is disinformation.

[Clodfobble]

It's all connected, sidhe. Yes, my son also had major sensory issues aside from pain, including visual, tactile, vestibular, and proprioceptive. And you know what? When we pulled the allergens out of his system... about 90% of those sensitivities--and the behaviors they subsequently led to--went away. I've known other kids whose sensory issues didn't go away until they peed a thermometer while on chelation drugs.

Consider it this way: when you are drunk, is it neurological? Yes, in the sense that it is your brain that is impaired. But what is actively messing up the brain? Something you ingested. It is not an inherent, pre-existing neurological condition.

You may also note I did not "lump all behaviors" in together. I listed three very specific behaviors that resulted from pain, in fact, and noted that other treatments were an integral part. And you still don't seem to understand that a diagnosis of autism is the presence of behaviors, and nothing else. To say that someone never had autism to begin with is akin to saying that because you are no longer sneezing, you never sneezed to begin with. But thanks once again for your deep insight.

[skysidhe]

I don't have deep insight. Just two cents. Thanks for clarifying.

I'm not sure what I think about vaccinations causing autism however and so I avidly read everyone's comments on it and appreciate them very much. Makes for good reading.

anyway,

Mostly I am very happy you have had so much success with your son. I really am.

I don't mean to lesson the importance of what you say by being short but I have to go watch a movie with a special someone.

[Undertoad]

Desiree update:

Her website is gone. (It had been sponsored and designed by a maker of portable hyperbaric units.) She had promised regular updates.

The Wikipedia entry on her controversy is removed as not being notable enough.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Krause.

Please don't ever lampoon me for posting links which support my views on things in the politics thread again. Eva. Thanks, bye.

[skysidhe]

wow clod. I didn't read well enough your response.

oh well
Never argue with a parent.

[Clodfobble]

Um, Merc? I don't lampoon your sources in the politics forum. I skim the threads at best, and hop in on occasion when you say something that seems completely at odds with other things you yourself have said. I definitely don't read anything anyone quotes in those threads, because politics bores me. Secondly, if you can only nitpick 1 out of 115 separate studies cited, I'm cool with that.