Questions about Moore's facts.

lookout123 · 07-12-2004, 12:15 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site/newsweek/

i found this to be an interesting article about Moore's use of facts.

Happy Monkey · 07-12-2004, 12:35 PM

http://www.houseofbush.com/

I found this to be an interesting rebuttal.

Happy Monkey · 07-21-2004, 12:43 PM

If anyone's seen the 59 Deceits in F911 article by David Kopel, here are some responses to them:

Part one (Deceits 1-2)
Part two (3-7)
Part three (8-16)
Part four (17-23)
Part five (24-31)
Part six (32-38)
Part seven (39-49)
Part eight (50-59)

DanaC · 07-21-2004, 01:08 PM

Thanks Happy Monkey

you just saved me the trouble of searching Google to debunk the critics. I just went to see the film last night and was both moved and impressed by it. I think it fully deserved the Palm D'Or at Cannes purely on the films merit. The opening sequence is a beautifully directed piece.

What I always find strangely comforting about moore's films is that they show an America I can relate to. The people of Flint look and sound like the people of Bolton, the old Northern Milltown I grew up in during a time when it's manufacturing base had been ripped apart. I know that environment. I grew up in a similar looking place with similar employment prospects at a time when unemployment for 19-29 year olds was running at an all time high in a Britain with nearly 4 million unemployed. ( officially)

The other thing I find moving about Moore's films and indeed his TV apperances is his humanity, his compassion for the workingclass backbone of America whose interests are systematically ignored by the electoral system they live under.

I find it amazing, that when such a large cloud hangs over the election results which somehow returned a Democratic winner but a Republican President that so many people concentrate their efforts on proving Moore a liar. Moore is not the one who put the cloud over the election results, he merely pointed it out along with many others.

Lie after lie from an administration whose interests lie firmly with their international family of oil and who is being harangued for his facts? The people who took a coalition of nations to war on a false prospectus? The people who lied to us all about Iraq's involvement with Al Quaeda and in doing so allowed the perpetrators of 9/11 get away into the Bora bora mountains where they are once more regrouped and in control of large areas ?

Lie upon lie, crime upon crime. Crimes of epic proportion which in another time or place would bring down a People's anger on the heads of those who committed them and it's Michael Moore who is demonised in the press and artistes who question the supreme will and right of the president to wage war in their name who are bullied into silence.

In any other country this would be seen as a form of covert dictatorship. When a man can lose an election and still take the seat of power it has all the hallmarks of a coup. But this happened in America, the worlds greatest democracy and the model for freedom in todays world. Terrifying.

wolf · 07-21-2004, 01:12 PM

May I have your attention please?

NO MATTER HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES THEY RECOUNTED, HE STILL WON.

Losing the popular vote and winning the electoral college is always possible. It's how the system works. And this wasn't the first time this happened.

(Incidentally, the nonsense related to Gore's attempt to steal (yes, steal) the election is what cemented my disillusionment with the Democrat party that had started with the blowjob)

lookout123 · 07-21-2004, 01:16 PM

*clap clap clap* thank you wolf.

DanaC · 07-21-2004, 01:29 PM

Well when they counted and recounted the figures suggested he should have lost because of the tens of thousands of your fellow citizens who were summarily disenfranchised and denied their vote

Of course it helps whne the person wishing to rig the election has the personal loyalties of the people a)doing the counting and b) acting as final arbiter

lookout123 · 07-21-2004, 01:38 PM

there are a lot of votes that aren't counted on every election.

i got a letter in the mail 6 weeks after the election notifying me that they were able to verify my registration but my vote still wasn't counted. and that one was for bush. hate bush all you want - there are plenty of reasons, but the stolen election is such a load of shit - move on.

wolf · 07-21-2004, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

Well when they counted and recounted the figures suggested he should have lost because of the tens of thousands of your fellow citizens who were summarily disenfranchised and denied their vote

Of course it helps whne the person wishing to rig the election has the personal loyalties of the people a)doing the counting and b) acting as final arbiter

People choosing not to vote is not "disenfranchising" them.

Neither is not allowing prisoners to vote.

The only "rigging" that was attempted was on the part of the Democrats, dearie. You want to change our system? Emigrate legally if you meet the criteria, apply for citizenship and vote.

Happy Monkey · 07-21-2004, 01:57 PM

The felon list in Florida which was used in 2000 and 2002 has finally been discarded due to dramatic errors, far in excess of the margin of the election results. And that's just the easiest of the disenfranchisements to document.

lookout123 · 07-21-2004, 02:05 PM

was there anyone on the list who may have voted republican?

Beestie · 07-21-2004, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

Well when they counted and recounted the figures suggested he should have lost because of the tens of thousands of your fellow citizens who were summarily disenfranchised and denied their vote

You mean the absentee ballots filed by our men and women in the miltary serving on foreign soil that Al Gore filed a lawsuit to keep from being counted?

Not that we owe you an explanation or anything.

lookout123 · 07-21-2004, 02:11 PM

the stolen election bit is just playing by the rule "if you say it often enough and loud enough, it must be true, so i have to tell every one as often and loudly as possible."

Happy Monkey · 07-21-2004, 02:13 PM

On the list of 48000 people, there were 22000 black people, who traditionally vote Democratic, and 61 hispanics, who in Florida traditionally vote Republican.

lookout123 · 07-21-2004, 02:19 PM

well, you showed me - 22000 people who would have voted democrat. if they went to the polls, and they supported gore, and they were smart enough to push a chad through.

how many of these people actually would have gotten off their butts to vote? there is no way of knowing, so it doesn't matter.

07-12-2004, 12:15 PM	#1
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	Questions about Moore's facts. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site/newsweek/ i found this to be an interesting article about Moore's use of facts. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

07-12-2004, 12:35 PM	#2
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	http://www.houseofbush.com/ I found this to be an interesting rebuttal. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

07-21-2004, 12:43 PM	#3
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	If anyone's seen the 59 Deceits in F911 article by David Kopel, here are some responses to them: Part one (Deceits 1-2) Part two (3-7) Part three (8-16) Part four (17-23) Part five (24-31) Part six (32-38) Part seven (39-49) Part eight (50-59) __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

07-21-2004, 01:08 PM	#4
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Thanks Happy Monkey you just saved me the trouble of searching Google to debunk the critics. I just went to see the film last night and was both moved and impressed by it. I think it fully deserved the Palm D'Or at Cannes purely on the films merit. The opening sequence is a beautifully directed piece. What I always find strangely comforting about moore's films is that they show an America I can relate to. The people of Flint look and sound like the people of Bolton, the old Northern Milltown I grew up in during a time when it's manufacturing base had been ripped apart. I know that environment. I grew up in a similar looking place with similar employment prospects at a time when unemployment for 19-29 year olds was running at an all time high in a Britain with nearly 4 million unemployed. ( officially) The other thing I find moving about Moore's films and indeed his TV apperances is his humanity, his compassion for the workingclass backbone of America whose interests are systematically ignored by the electoral system they live under. I find it amazing, that when such a large cloud hangs over the election results which somehow returned a Democratic winner but a Republican President that so many people concentrate their efforts on proving Moore a liar. Moore is not the one who put the cloud over the election results, he merely pointed it out along with many others. Lie after lie from an administration whose interests lie firmly with their international family of oil and who is being harangued for his facts? The people who took a coalition of nations to war on a false prospectus? The people who lied to us all about Iraq's involvement with Al Quaeda and in doing so allowed the perpetrators of 9/11 get away into the Bora bora mountains where they are once more regrouped and in control of large areas ? Lie upon lie, crime upon crime. Crimes of epic proportion which in another time or place would bring down a People's anger on the heads of those who committed them and it's Michael Moore who is demonised in the press and artistes who question the supreme will and right of the president to wage war in their name who are bullied into silence. In any other country this would be seen as a form of covert dictatorship. When a man can lose an election and still take the seat of power it has all the hallmarks of a coup. But this happened in America, the worlds greatest democracy and the model for freedom in todays world. Terrifying. Last edited by DanaC; 07-21-2004 at 01:10 PM.

07-21-2004, 01:12 PM	#5
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	May I have your attention please? NO MATTER HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES THEY RECOUNTED, HE STILL WON. Losing the popular vote and winning the electoral college is always possible. It's how the system works. And this wasn't the first time this happened. (Incidentally, the nonsense related to Gore's attempt to steal (yes, steal) the election is what cemented my disillusionment with the Democrat party that had started with the blowjob) __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

07-21-2004, 01:16 PM	#6
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	clap clap clap thank you wolf. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

07-21-2004, 01:29 PM	#7
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Well when they counted and recounted the figures suggested he should have lost because of the tens of thousands of your fellow citizens who were summarily disenfranchised and denied their vote Of course it helps whne the person wishing to rig the election has the personal loyalties of the people a)doing the counting and b) acting as final arbiter

07-21-2004, 01:38 PM	#8
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	there are a lot of votes that aren't counted on every election. i got a letter in the mail 6 weeks after the election notifying me that they were able to verify my registration but my vote still wasn't counted. and that one was for bush. hate bush all you want - there are plenty of reasons, but the stolen election is such a load of shit - move on. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

07-21-2004, 01:57 PM	#10
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	The felon list in Florida which was used in 2000 and 2002 has finally been discarded due to dramatic errors, far in excess of the margin of the election results. And that's just the easiest of the disenfranchisements to document. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

07-21-2004, 02:05 PM	#11
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	was there anyone on the list who may have voted republican? __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

07-21-2004, 02:11 PM	#13
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	the stolen election bit is just playing by the rule "if you say it often enough and loud enough, it must be true, so i have to tell every one as often and loudly as possible." __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

07-21-2004, 02:13 PM	#14
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	On the list of 48000 people, there were 22000 black people, who traditionally vote Democratic, and 61 hispanics, who in Florida traditionally vote Republican. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

07-21-2004, 02:19 PM	#15
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	well, you showed me - 22000 people who would have voted democrat. if they went to the polls, and they supported gore, and they were smart enough to push a chad through. how many of these people actually would have gotten off their butts to vote? there is no way of knowing, so it doesn't matter. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

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