One Maybe Two Victories for Humanity!

Griff · 03-01-2003, 07:48 PM

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - In a spectacular victory for the U.S.-led war on terrorism, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the suspected mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks and a senior operative in Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network, was captured Saturday in a joint raid by CIA and Pakistani agents, officials said.

U.S. preparations for war suffered a further blow when Turkey's parliament rejected a long-awaited motion that would have allowed the United States to deploy 62,000 troops in Turkey for a possible invasion of Iraq.

Two organizations apparently bent on starting WWIII were dealt serious setbacks today. Maybe we can duck this nightmare.

Griff · 03-01-2003, 08:01 PM

I missed this part before-A Pakistani newspaper, reporting on the clash, said investigators believed Mohammed was the man who slit the throat of U.S. reporter Daniel Pearl in front of a camera after the journalist disappeared in Karachi in January 2002 while investigating a story on Islamic extremists.

Well done.

wolf · 03-01-2003, 08:22 PM

I found it kind of interesting when it was annouced by one of the talking heads that he will not be brought to the US for interrogation. They will interrogate him on foreign soil and probably use stronger methods of questionning.

Seems as though we have ways of making you talk ... we just can't use them inside our borders.

Undertoad · 03-01-2003, 09:25 PM

A one-front approach may increase the chance of US forces getting successfully attacked by chem/bio weapons. It'll also probably require more targets to be destroyed, and thus additional possibility of civilian casualty, before anyone goes in. And all because Turkey wants to yank itself towards being driven by Islam. Not a win by any stretch.

jaguar · 03-01-2003, 11:52 PM

wolf - Syria is used extensively for torture of suspects.
Lets not duck around it, the US is torturing people it places outside it's judicial system.

While catching this asshat is a good thing, the way they will treat him is not, might seem so.....until you get labeled a terrorist.

tw · 03-02-2003, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
And all because Turkey wants to yank itself towards being driven by Islam. Not a win by any stretch.

Rubbish. Turkey is not trying to become more Islamic. Turkish Deputies are saying same as everyone else in the world. They don't like being ordered what to do by the US (meaning George Jr). Just another example of how badly George Jr has undermined international relations. Turkey, like Germany, Canada, and South Korea, were some of America's best friends. All those relations have been made the worst since WWII because of George Jr. Irresponsible decrees such as this need to attack Saddam for no logical reason - no smoking gun - is only straining US relations with virtually every nation in the world.

The world does not dislike Americans. They both dislike and distrust George Jr. This pre-emption doctrine - based in part upon some silly religious nonsense that America is always in the right - has the world very disturbed and uneasy. George Jr is why Turkey's Parliament could not vote as the US demanded. George Jr is why most every close American friend is suffering worst relations in 50 years. Even with $30billion in US payments to a country that needs that money, still, Turkey could not go along with George Jr's demands. The problem is not Turkey. The problem is George Jr and those who would support this mental midget president.

Murat Mercan of the Turkish Parliament: "The Americans dictated to us. It became a business negotiation, not something between friends. It disgusted me."

Only months in office and George Jr was quickly undermining relations with American allies. Norwegian Foreign Minister publically declared that George Jr would undermine the Oslo Accords. We now know that Foreign Minister was correct. But George Jr did not stop there. He has so corrupted international relations that even Turkey can no longer support this administration. Problem is not Turkey. Problems are directly traceable to this mental midget president and those who would support him.

Turkey is not trying to become more Islamic. George Jr has simply alienated another closest friend.

tw · 03-02-2003, 12:57 AM

Quote:

From the NY Times of 1 Mar 2003
Mr. Gul and Mr. Erdogan made no secret of their distaste for the American plans, but associates said both men had concluded that the relationship with the United States was too valuable to endanger by saying no. But as the discussions wore on and tales of American high-handedness spread, Turkish lawmakers, as well as the Turkish public, appeared to become more and more alienated.

Quote:

From the Wall Street Journal of 28 Feb 2003
Spanish Prime Minister Jose' Maria Aznar, one of America's staunchest allies on the United Nationsl Security Council, said in an interview that he has urged President Bush to help European leaders withstand the mounting political pressures they face over possbile war with Iraq, including muzzling Defense Secretary Donald Runsfeld.

... Recent comments such as comparing Germany with Libya and Cuba over Bonn's approach to Saddam Hussein have sparked particular criticism.

"Ministers of defense should talk less, shouldn't they? The more Powell speaks and the less Rumsfeld speaks, that wouldn't be a bad thing altogether," Mr Aznar said.

But Rumsfeld is a major advocate of the pre-emption policy promoted by neo-Conservative Republicans and advocated by George Jr. Powell represents opinions found among the Realist Republicans. Realist Republicans such as Scowcroft and Baker have said an Iraq invasion is not justified.

Neo-conservative Republicans who demand and lecture world leaders on what should be done are why Turkey voted against George Jr.

hermit22 · 03-02-2003, 04:01 AM

You guys are missing another important detail about Turkey: a recent poll showed that 94% of the population were opposed to a war with Iraq. So, really, if we're trying to promote democracy, we should be proud of this demonstration of it - not so proud that its failure was this close, but grateful that the vote reflected the will of the people.

There's also the question of the Kurds. There's been a Kurdish Revolution in Southeastern Turkey for decades, and I'm sure we all know about the de facto Kurdistan in Northern Iraq. The Turks hate the Kurds, and, in fact, don't believe they exist. In thier mind, Kurds are simply Turks who lost their heritage. So one of the things that the Americans were so heavy-handed about in the negotiations was the threat that America would support a Kurdistan in Northern Iraq. This would almost definately destabilize Southern Turkey and could lead to the potential of a future conflict between this new state and Turkey.

In addition, Turkey's economy took a direct hit of US$90B during the first Gulf War. All the talk about the Turks trying to extort money out of us is missing that little detail - and the fact that the country has been in a great depression since 1997.

So I hope that clears up a bit of the talk about Turkey. Whoever said that there would be more of a chance of chem/bio weapons being used now is probably accurate, because the winds sweep down off of the mountains, and southwest from Baghdad - so they can use these weapons without the wind shifting into Baghdad. And there wouldn't be any troops from the North to flank them on it.

(I know I've been gone for a while, but that's because I've spent too much time reading about stuff like this.)

Griff · 03-02-2003, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
A one-front approach may increase the chance of US forces getting successfully attacked by chem/bio weapons. It'll also probably require more targets to be destroyed, and thus additional possibility of civilian casualty, before anyone goes in. And all because Turkey wants to yank itself towards being driven by Islam. Not a win by any stretch.

That is why the "maybe" is in the title. Pres. Bush can choose to do the sensible thing but if he doesn't... If you don't like the face of modern Turkey, you may not end up a big fan of the democratic Moslem world, which Bush wants to be the father of.

Undertoad · 03-02-2003, 10:47 AM

h22, your presence here has been missed - thanks for sticking in your informed 2 cents.

Undertoad · 03-02-2003, 05:12 PM

But waitamin, 94% are against war; what percentage are against the country being used...? What percentage are against getting aid...? I hate polls.

tw · 03-03-2003, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
But waitamin, 94% are against war; what percentage are against the country being used...? What percentage are against getting aid...? I hate polls.

What repeated polls by different sources say cannot be disputed. When a country so pro-American as Turkey suddenly is that against an American position, then one must ask what changed. 90+% is a damning number when from multiple polls. That damning number is in agreement with other polls all over the world.

What changed is the now extremist America's government. In particular the American president who would subvert any international relationship, blow out entire budget surpluses into record deficiets, and even promote hate and fear in America - only to seek personal revenge.

It does not matter how the question was worded. So many polls throughout the world keep coming to the same conclusion - the world disagrees with George Jr - both in his agenda and in the man. World opinion is so one sided against this president that anyone who support him is also in serious political trouble.

To have polls so one sided against - 90+% - takes a leader that bad - George Jr.

Undertoad · 03-03-2003, 04:04 PM

Nonsense as usual. Even US polls move a TON based on how the question is worded.

"Are you in favor of a partnership with America that will bring Turkey some $40B in aid and all we have to do is let them in for a week to cross the little border we have?"

The Turkish stock market fell 10% in the first seven minutes it was open this morning, and wound up down 12.5% for the day. D'ya think some of the pollees are changing their minds today?

tw · 03-03-2003, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
Nonsense as usual. Even US polls move a TON based on how the question is worded.

Accurately noted: how a poll question is worded can drastically affect the result. But we are not talking about one poll, or one polling organization, or one question. We are talking about many polling organizations wording numerous polls differently - and same being performed by different organziations in different countries. Consistently polls keep returning to the same conclusion. George Jr's war and George Jr's credibilty is overwhelmingly opposed throughout the world. Just too many polls by too many organizations in too many countries come to the same conclusion. This American president is the problem.

The only way this American president gets any support in some countries - if war is first approved by the UN Security Council. But then George Jr says he will attack Iraq regardless of what the UN or the Congress says. IOW George Jr authorizes war in disregard for the Constitution and rule of law.

russotto · 03-04-2003, 01:56 PM

A one-front war isn't the only alternative. I doubt the US has forgotten how to do an amphibious invasion.

03-01-2003, 07:48 PM	#1
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	One Maybe Two Victories for Humanity! ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - In a spectacular victory for the U.S.-led war on terrorism, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the suspected mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks and a senior operative in Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network, was captured Saturday in a joint raid by CIA and Pakistani agents, officials said. U.S. preparations for war suffered a further blow when Turkey's parliament rejected a long-awaited motion that would have allowed the United States to deploy 62,000 troops in Turkey for a possible invasion of Iraq. Two organizations apparently bent on starting WWIII were dealt serious setbacks today. Maybe we can duck this nightmare. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

03-01-2003, 08:01 PM	#2
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	I missed this part before-A Pakistani newspaper, reporting on the clash, said investigators believed Mohammed was the man who slit the throat of U.S. reporter Daniel Pearl in front of a camera after the journalist disappeared in Karachi in January 2002 while investigating a story on Islamic extremists. Well done. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

03-01-2003, 08:22 PM	#3
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	I found it kind of interesting when it was annouced by one of the talking heads that he will not be brought to the US for interrogation. They will interrogate him on foreign soil and probably use stronger methods of questionning. Seems as though we have ways of making you talk ... we just can't use them inside our borders. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

03-01-2003, 11:52 PM	#5
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	wolf - Syria is used extensively for torture of suspects. Lets not duck around it, the US is torturing people it places outside it's judicial system. While catching this asshat is a good thing, the way they will treat him is not, might seem so.....until you get labeled a terrorist. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

03-02-2003, 04:01 AM	#8
hermit22 sleep. Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: So Cal. Posts: 257	You guys are missing another important detail about Turkey: a recent poll showed that 94% of the population were opposed to a war with Iraq. So, really, if we're trying to promote democracy, we should be proud of this demonstration of it - not so proud that its failure was this close, but grateful that the vote reflected the will of the people. There's also the question of the Kurds. There's been a Kurdish Revolution in Southeastern Turkey for decades, and I'm sure we all know about the de facto Kurdistan in Northern Iraq. The Turks hate the Kurds, and, in fact, don't believe they exist. In thier mind, Kurds are simply Turks who lost their heritage. So one of the things that the Americans were so heavy-handed about in the negotiations was the threat that America would support a Kurdistan in Northern Iraq. This would almost definately destabilize Southern Turkey and could lead to the potential of a future conflict between this new state and Turkey. In addition, Turkey's economy took a direct hit of US$90B during the first Gulf War. All the talk about the Turks trying to extort money out of us is missing that little detail - and the fact that the country has been in a great depression since 1997. So I hope that clears up a bit of the talk about Turkey. Whoever said that there would be more of a chance of chem/bio weapons being used now is probably accurate, because the winds sweep down off of the mountains, and southwest from Baghdad - so they can use these weapons without the wind shifting into Baghdad. And there wouldn't be any troops from the North to flank them on it. (I know I've been gone for a while, but that's because I've spent too much time reading about stuff like this.) __________________ blippety blah bluh blah blah

03-01-2003, 09:25 PM	#4
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	A one-front approach may increase the chance of US forces getting successfully attacked by chem/bio weapons. It'll also probably require more targets to be destroyed, and thus additional possibility of civilian casualty, before anyone goes in. And all because Turkey wants to yank itself towards being driven by Islam. Not a win by any stretch.

03-02-2003, 10:47 AM	#10
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	h22, your presence here has been missed - thanks for sticking in your informed 2 cents.

03-02-2003, 05:12 PM	#11
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	But waitamin, 94% are against war; what percentage are against the country being used...? What percentage are against getting aid...? I hate polls.

03-03-2003, 04:04 PM	#13
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Nonsense as usual. Even US polls move a TON based on how the question is worded. "Are you in favor of a partnership with America that will bring Turkey some $40B in aid and all we have to do is let them in for a week to cross the little border we have?" The Turkish stock market fell 10% in the first seven minutes it was open this morning, and wound up down 12.5% for the day. D'ya think some of the pollees are changing their minds today?

03-04-2003, 01:56 PM	#15
russotto Professor Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 1,788	A one-front war isn't the only alternative. I doubt the US has forgotten how to do an amphibious invasion.

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