Another story about appalling Muslim behavior in France

[elSicomoro]

Well, that's a grand slam just about anywhere. At least we just hand out stupid looks and ignorant comments for 3 of the 4 here in the US.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce

Maybe we need a new name for the bad Islamics. Badlamics?

"Islamofascists" was once proposed, but drew all kinds of fire because it actually alludes to Islam.

How un-PC.

[Griff]

Originally posted by MaggieL

"Islamofascists" was once proposed, but drew all kinds of fire because it actually alludes to Islam.

How un-PC.

It drew fire because the only things these evil buggers have in common with those evil buggers is their hatred of Jews and their love of street fights. If we use the label that loosely, we could easily label the US a fascist state with our growing militarism and developing control economy. All we need is a charasmatic leader tramping around in military clothing... oops wrong thread.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Damn it, that's it Griff. I'm tellin' W on you.:p

[warch]

Girls need to kick some cultural butt. A committed investment in secular education for women is key all over the world. Revolution. Political power and a change of law.
Cultures that abuse the basic rights of women and children align with many religions to justify their crimes. Islam has been embraced by many misogynistic tribal cultures and the fundamentalists are flairing. Rape, kidnap and sale, torture, imprisonment, murder are all OK, often called for. That really pisses me off.

[elSicomoro]

That must've been warch I heard on The World the other day...it IS produced by Minnesota Public Radio, after all.

[hermit22]

ok, after almost a year of silence, I figure I might as well weigh in on this...since this is my master's thesis, after all. I'll admit that that may lead me into territories of bias, although I attempt to remain fair.

Undertoad, I respect you, but you are grossly oversimplifying things. Are there huge Muslim communities throughout the world raping girls everywhere? If I recall correctly, that article attempted to show that Muslim animosity toward Jews was ripe in the ghettos of Paris, where a large number of Algerian and Lebanese have sought a better life. It's about culture shock, on one hand, and basic human carnage on the other. And it's about the youth soaking up the worst parts of their heritage, mass culture and ignorance, relying on the words of extremists for guidance.

But nevermind that for a second. Islam, as interpreted by some, is actually very tolerant - much like some Christian sects are way more tolerant than others. It doesn't teach that "those that are different from you are bad" - it leans more towards tolerating their differences. (For example, the sop for Muslim empires in the Arab world was to allow different religious groups to thrive, albeit with fewer rights. Hence, the formerly huge and influential Jewish community of Baghdad, and the sprinklings of Maronites and Coptics throughout the Arab world.) However, I've never really bought the line that the rules about women are meant to protect women from men. An example would be the coverings, which are theoretically worn to protect women from men's instincts - if the men don't see those sexy legs, they won't automagically think with their dicks and set up for the grand rape scene.

Uryoces, what you're talking about was built pretty clearly in Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civilizations - and then discredited pretty quickly. It seems intuitive that people who only view Western culture from the outside would see it as either a pinnacle of desire, a threat, or somewhere in between. Following this, it would seem that jealousy would turn into animosity and merge with the latter situation - thus leading to the Clash Huntington talked about.

If that was the case, though, there wouldn't be a burgeoning middle class in Lebanon and Syria. And every Arab (or, in the gross generalities espoused pretty much everywhere these days, every Muslim) would be touting a gun, a grenade, and a burning American flag. It's not like that, despite what the media makes it seem. There <i>have</i> been female leaders of Muslim nations (Pakistan and Bangladesh come to mind), but not enough. And of course, everyone's rights need to be expanded, as long as the general cultural sensibility is protected (or else it will be fought every step of the way; see the fight over gay rights in the US and the Anglican church).

The real problem here is the generalities. Calling it an Islamic problem doesn't actually address the problem, but offloads it onto something simpler and easier to grasp. It takes detailed examination to actually understand society, or what drives a social group. Take this example: Strains of anti-Israel that have morphed into anti-Jewishness in an economically stagnant immigrant, minority community that is basically shut out of society (no melting pots in Europe) has ended up in violent acts and thuggishness. Ridiculous, indefensible, non-condonable - but none of that matters if the motivations aren't understood and eliminated. And that means punishment; that means rehabilitation; that means prevention.

And Maggie, I've said it before, but that word is one of the worst misuses of terminology I've ever heard.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Well Hermit, what you say sounds rational and logical enough to almost be self evident. But, how are you going to get that into a 15 second sound byte (bite?)

[juju]

This discussion is a little over my head. But I do have a question:

Undertoad, did you actually mean to infer that part of the problem is Islam, or did you just mean to suggest that part of the problem is Arab tradition and culture?

I just ask 'cause everyone is saying that you're accusing Islam, but I don't get that from what you said.

[Undertoad]

Are there huge Muslim communities throughout the world raping girls everywhere?

Only in about a third of the world it seems; the places where such things are tolerated, such as tribal Pakistan, East Africa, and some bad sections of Paris.

I admit to using the broad brush generalization. I do find it interesting that I wrote a message describing the year-long repeated rape and brutalization of an 11-year-old and the part the people find offensive is where I generalize.

The most offensive approach would have been to avoid any reference at all to culture. No, the most offensive approach would have been to not forward the message at all.

[jaguar]

w00t, 10 points to hermit for a very accurate cross-section of the issue. Considering you're doing your thesis on this stuff, it's probably a good thing you can objectively analyse the situation or you'd kinda be screwed.....but i digress.

The point I think hermit missed (and since i spend a fair chunk of time in France i'll fill in) is the severly under-represented socioeconomic factors here. These places are slums of the worst type, gigantic ugly housing projects. It's one of the most hostile environments i've ever been in (including war-ravaged Cambodia and vietnamese slums). The police travel around APCs, when they do at all. These are massive lawless tracks on the borders of the 'city of love'. Is it the slightest bit suprising that such (undenaibly) despicable behaviour goes on in areas that have basically reverted to barberism. Islam is far from perfect i'm not denying that but it's not the cause of this kinda stuff, the environment is. If anything Islam is at most a catalyst.

I know i've been flitting in and out of this place all year but things have finalyl settled down a little and i tend to be in the same place for more than a week these days so expect more of the usual far-left-wing trash (although i'm going for a shooters licence, does that discredit me?) out of me - things are back to normal

[juju]

Sweet.. Jaguar with a gun! Hey, how about a picture of you firing one? That would be funny, after all those arguments over it.

[wolf]

I always knew there was hope for the boy ... enjoy yourself, jag, and pay attention to the safety rules.

[Griff]

Originally posted by jaguar

I know i've been flitting in and out of this place all year but things have finalyl settled down a little and i tend to be in the same place for more than a week these days so expect more of the usual far-left-wing trash (although i'm going for a shooters licence, does that discredit me?) out of me - things are back to normal

I dunno wolf, armed leftists can be a source of concern.

I guess a big question is whether Islam was as big a factor in the (rise and) fall of Arab civilization as the Catholic writer Hilaire Belloc believed Catholicism was in the rise of the West. We tend to see Arab culture as Islamic culture but is that a broad generalization or just a clear view from the outside?

[hermit22]

I guess a big question is whether Islam was as big a factor in the (rise and) fall of Arab civilization as the Catholic writer Hilaire Belloc believed Catholicism was in the rise of the West. We tend to see Arab culture as Islamic culture but is that a broad generalization or just a clear view from the outside?

I'm definately going to have to read this Hilaire Belloc guy. Sounds interesting. I think the equivalent about Arab civilization is Albert Hourani's A History of the Arab Peoples. I'm reading it right now, and it's excellent.

Anyway.

As far as your question goes...I'm not quite sure what you're asking (haven't been awake for very long). I think, though, you're asking about the relationship between Arabic culture and Islamic culture. Am I right, or am I just making myself look like an idiot?

The easiest way to put it is...Arabic culture is Islamic culture, but Islamic culture is not necessarily Arabic culture. The general definition for the Arab world is the Arabian peninsula and North Africa. This means that some of the most prominent Islamic societies are not included in the Arabic world, like Iran, Turkey, or the two largest concentrations of Muslims - Indonesia and India. So Islamic culture tends to be different in each of these places, especially since different sects are more prominent in different areas. Most of the Arab world, for example, is Sunni, with pockets of Shi'ism in Yemen, Iraq and Lebanon; and bits of Sufism in Egypt and Syria. Outside of that, though, Sufism is huge in Turkey and Africa; Shi'ism is prominent in Iran, obviously, and parts of the Indian subcontinent.

On the other hand, Arabic culture is obviously influential in Islamic communities. Arabic is the 'revealed language' of the Koran, so Muslims are required to learn it. And as the first Arabian empires spread into Asia and Africa, they brought parts of their outlook with them.