learning a new language

[hertz]

Hi guys,

At the ripe old age of 27 I've decided to learn a new language. Knowing that it would have been much easier while I was young, I'm hoping that my brain is still plastic enough to cope. With that in mind, I'm seeking some advice about the best way to go about it.

I thought that a sensible approach would be to first learn how to learn a new language. Any new language. Is there some sort of mental limbering up that I can do to make it easier? I imagine that there are a lot of practices related to speaking english that I will need to "forget".

Or is it easier to pick a language and jump right in?

If anyone has any tips or links that they could share, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks

[elSicomoro]

Well, my first recommendation would be to FORGET what you know about English. When I learned Spanish in college, we started very basic--we started using Spanish words for the things around us and learned Spanish commands. Also, another thing that helps is having a friend or people with whom you can speak the language.

What language are you considering?

[hertz]

Originally posted by sycamore
Well, my first recommendation would be to FORGET what you know about English.

That is the biggest unknown for me at this point. What do I know about English? I just use it to express thoughts. It (on the surface, at least) requires no extra effort on my part.

I remember from high school French that the ordering of the sentence structure was different. I think that will be the hardest thing - forming sentences that don't sound jumbled up.

As far as I know, the emphasis and inflection will be more pronounced as well. And also carry much more meaning. Just poking around the net I have seen that very different words sound similar in some languages.

When I learned Spanish in college, we started very basic--we started using Spanish words for the things around us and learned Spanish commands.

By that, do you mean that you learnt the nouns first by using them in your day to day English sentences? "Please hand me the [foreign word for remote]"?

Also, another thing that helps is having a friend or people with whom you can speak the language.

I've noticed a few bilingual chat rooms, set up specifically to help with proficiency. Pronunciation would still be an issue, but they could definately help with fluency.

Plus I like the idea that you are likely helping someone else improve their English. Good karma

What language are you considering?

Someone suggested Spanish as a good place to start, as it has elements of other languages in it or forms a basis for other languages. It also seems to be fairly widespread in some countries.

After that, an Asian language. But I'm not sure which one yet. I'd be more likely to get into the Indonesian areas than into Japan or China.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by hertz
I remember from high school French that the ordering of the sentence structure was different. I think that will be the hardest thing - forming sentences that don't sound jumbled up.

If you already have some experience with French, Spanish shouldn't be too big of a jump, other than pronunciations.

By that, do you mean that you learnt the nouns first by using them in your day to day English sentences?

The best way to describe it is like this--think of preschool all over again. Where the professor points to an item, and you say what that item is...only in Spanish. So, if the professor pointed to my pen, I would say "el boligrafo." (Articles are also extremely important, especially in the Romance languages.)

I've noticed a few bilingual chat rooms, set up specifically to help with proficiency. Pronunciation would still be an issue, but they could definately help with fluency.

Chat rooms are good for reading and writing Spanish. But actually speaking or listening to it is crucial. I got lucky--my ex-fiance spoke Spanish in her home, so we used it occasionally. When I would travel to Hispanic parts of Chicago, I would go out of my way to use Spanish. Not only did it help me on the pronunciation end, but most native speakers seem appreciative of the fact that you're willing to try.

Someone suggested Spanish as a good place to start, as it has elements of other languages in it or forms a basis for other languages. It also seems to be fairly widespread in some countries.

IMO, definitely the best language to start with. Given the growing number of Hispanics in this country, I believe Spanish will continue to be used more in this country as a whole. Unfortunately, my Spanish is now rusty, but it was invaluable when I used to visit Chicago.

After that, an Asian language. But I'm not sure which one yet. I'd be more likely to get into the Indonesian areas than into Japan or China.

Interesting. I would definitely start with Spanish first...at least you won't have to learn a whole new alphabet yet.

[Hubris Boy]

Well... I've had to do it twice: German and Russian. The most important thing I could suggest would be to immerse yourself in it, to the extent you're able. Make it a part of your daily life... listen to the music, replace the magazines in your bathroom with a bilingual dictionary, get yourself a shortwave radio and listen to broadcasts in your new language. Whatever it takes.

I was lucky: both times, I had plenty of access to people who spoke the language every day. I learned Russian from native speakers of the language. And, although I'd had 4 years of high school German and 4 more semesters in college, I didn't really learn to SPEAK German until I lived in Germany and had to use it for everyday living. I don't know how your brain is wired; everybody learns differently. But, for what it's worth, here are a couple of things that I've found useful.

First, I'd suggest brushing up on English grammar as a precursor to your studies. Remember how you hated diagramming sentences in 10th grade English class, and wondered why you'd ever need to know what the hell the a direct object was? Bend over... here it comes again! Grammar is the skeleton of any language. Once you learn the rules, the rest is just memorization. Renewing your acquaintance with the rules of grammar will make your road to a new language a lot smoother. And, as you make progress with your new language, you'll come to appreciate (and love) what a silly language English really is!

Second, as Sycamore correctly points out, there's no substitute for practicing with native speakers of the language. Go out of your way to try out your new skills on people who grew up speaking the language. Frequent their restaurants. Patronize their shops. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. You WILL make mistakes, and you'll learn from them. And the more you practice, the smoother and more idiomatic your speech will become. After all... you want to speak like a person, not like a grammar book, right?

Best of luck to you.

DUDE!

Where you been?

[Hubris Boy]

Originally posted by dhamsaic
DUDE!
Where you been?

I regret that recent events in Meatspace have made significant demands on my free time. I've lurked by the Cellar as often as possible, but haven't really had time to post the way I'd like. Still don't, but this one needed a response.

Enough of this... I will NOT be a party to Thread Hijacking! Anybody else got any language-learning tips for our friend hertz?

Just had to ask. Me and sycamore been wondering where the hell you went. But yeah. I'm done thread hijacking too.

*hangs up his thread hijacking trousers*

Hey, can we call it like "thread stealing"? I don't want the FBI knocking on my door...

[Undertoad]

*koff*

What I always wonder is whether those computer-based language training thingies are worth anything.

I took French in H.S. but was depressed when, 15 years later, it was damn close to meaningless when actually going to Montreal.

I took Spanish in high school - 3 years of it (okay, 1 year was in 8th grade, and the other 2 were 9th and 10th). It came in handy once.

It was a really cold day in March of this year (today is the last day I can say that), and I was sitting at the Vienna/Fairfax-GMU metro station waiting for my bus. There was a young girl (17 or 18) sitting a couple feet from me, and I swear we were the only people at this metro station.

I had a 40 minute wait at that station, so I called Joann and asked her to come get me. She actually agreed, and said she'd be there in 20 minutes or so (she was fixing dinner or being repulsive or something). Anyway, we're sitting there, and after about 10 minutes, she says:

"Sir?"

I look over to her. "Yeah?"

She pulls out a dollar bill and tells me, in Spanish, that she needs to make a phone call but doesn't have any change. Guess what - I actually understood her! I guess I looked like I didn't, 'cause she had this look on her face of desperation, and she started waving the dollar and making a fake phone with her other hand, holding it up to her head. I smiled at her (it was cute!), reached into my pocket, and dumped what must have been about two dollars in change into her hand. She got this huge smile and tried to hand me the dollar, saying "Gracias" over and over. I just said "de nada" and politely refused the dollar. She went, made her phone call, and got picked up, and for once, 3 years of Spanish didn't seem wasted.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Undertoad

I took French in H.S. but was depressed when, 15 years later, it was damn close to meaningless when actually going to Montreal.

You were under the msapprehension that what' s spoken in Quebec is the language spoken in France. :-) Castillian Spanish will get you funny looks in Mexico, too.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by MaggieL
You were under the msapprehension that what' s spoken in Quebec is the language spoken in France. :-) Castillian Spanish will get you funny looks in Mexico, too.

Tony, when you took French, were you taught the "true" French version? Or, what they speak in Canada (as is generally taught now)?

When I took Spanish in college, they stressed it was basically what you would hear in Mexico. For the most part, they were on target. From what I've seen, there are a few differences in the language, depending on what part of Latin American you're dealing with. Puerto Rican Spanish...that's a WHOLE new ballgame. Spanish in Spain seems to differ primarily in pronoun usage and idioms. Argentina seems to stay the closest to formal Spanish in this part of the world.

[Undertoad]

No, it wasn't a matter of local differences, it was more a matter of a massive faiilure to communicate with even the most basic vocabulary and tenses and whatnot.

I take it to mean that the school system wasn't really interested in making me bi-lingual. That would be impossible to promise. What would be possible to promise would be "four years of language education for college-bound high-schoolers", and that's what I got.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Undertoad
No, it wasn't a matter of local differences, it was more a matter of a massive faiilure to communicate with even the most basic vocabulary and tenses and whatnot.

I take it to mean that the school system wasn't really interested in making me bi-lingual. That would be impossible to promise. What would be possible to promise would be "four years of language education for college-bound high-schoolers", and that's what I got.

I hated taking foreign language in high school. I took 2 years of German...and that was the dumbest thing I ever did. Take a language that I knew I would never use practically. (No offense, Hubris.)

Since I left high school (in 1994), they seem to promote foreign language more strongly, and seem more devoted in getting people to actually USE it. That sucks though Tony...were you actually looking forward to using it?

When I got to college, at Southeast Missouri State, we only had to take 3 hours of a "communications" class. Southeast had a unique curriculum, and the "basic" classes were broken down into a variety of categories. "Communications" was not only several languages, but theatre, public speaking, etc.

Then, I transferred to UM-St. Louis...and 13 hours of foreign language was required (3 classes--5, 5, and 3). I took 16 hours total--and had I continued to use Spanish, I would probably be highly fluent in it now. At first, my whole rationale was "I just want to get this shit out of the way, so let me take the easiest one--Spanish." But then, I met various friends, and many of them spoke Spanish, so I had the opportunity to use it. Then, when I started going to Chicago on a regular basis, I saw how helpful it was. That dramatically changed my attitude regarding foreign language. Plus, I had a good professor, who made it fun to learn.

[Undertoad]

It didn't occur to me that I'd really really want to be able to speak another language until about 7-8 years after high school.

Sure, if I'd have known, my attitude would have been different. On the other hand, how can a high schooler have the understanding to know the value of speaking another language? Only if they're educated.

And I got decent grades in those classes, so what was I being evaluated on?

A few years back my wife and I were comparing notes on our high school experiences. "And I got the Physics prize, for being the best Physics student," she said. "Wow, Physics, I wouldn't have expected that," I said. "Tell me something. What's Ohm's law?"

She didn't know. The most basic law of electronics, a major part of Physics.

But I knew it - and I would never forget it - because instead of Physics, I took Electronics Shop. I would have failed Physics the way they taught it; the most important aspect of the class was good lab notes, and I was not capable of nor interested in that sort of meticulous toilet training. Instead, I took a class where I had 60 IQ points on the average kids, and learned some of the most important, lasting things ever. Because we didn't have "lab" - we just "built stuff". We wrapped our own coils, put voltage through our own circuits. We didn't take any goddamn notes; we heard and smelled the blown capacitors when somebody didn't get something quite right. We even etched our own circuit boards -- a wonderful gift to me, when I didn't even know I'd be heading into Computer Science.

Maybe some people can learn from lectures and bogus "labs" and meticulous "lab notes" and so forth. But I can't help thinking that, if I'd taken "French Shop" instead of "French", I'd still be speaking it today.