6/15/2003: Palestinians swarm for body parts

Originally posted by Happy Monkey
Against hidden bombs and attack helicopters armed with missiles? We're not talking fisticuffs here.

We're talking about people breaking in to homes and executing the occupants.

The problem is that if we stop equipping the Israelis, we've done nothing to quell the extremists in the Palestinian side. Whereas many Palestinians would be happy with their own state, many will not. And it doesn't take many to make a situation ugly. Watch two or three suicide bombers derail end-of-occupation talks. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa's, etc will always be able to muster the requisite numbers when their goal is to breed hatred. Why is this their goal? Because it is necessary if their ultimate goal is to come to fruition - the destruction of Israel. Hamas has no power if Abbas succeeds. He is being sabotaged from many sides, and I, for one, do not envy him.

Again, the problem with suicide bombers, no matter how you argue them, is that it keeps Israeli support for occupation high, and it gives Israel an easy excuse for firing those missiles. How could Israel possibly justify an attack against a peaceful society that had renounced violence in all forms?

[xoxoxoBruce]

men are more able to defend themselves.

Bullshit. EVERY woman in Isreal can handle an Uzi. Universal service sees to that.

Children? Are you serious? No, they don't. Just like Palestinian kids don't have anything to do with the persecution of the Israelis.

Damn right, I'm serious. By the time a kid (on either side) can walk and talk, they've been taught to hate and how to throw rocks or worse.

The difference is that, generally speaking, innocents are not targeted by the IDF, whereas they are targeted by Hamas, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Islamic Jihad, etc.

So "generally speaking" collaterals don't matter. Methinks I detect some bias here. I firmly believe there are worse things you can do to a person than killing them, therefore body count isn't the best measure of good and evil. Or bad and less bad.

We should simply stop equipping them... and insist that they do the right thing. The violence will disappear naturally, because the root cause --the occupation-- will be gone.

That's not likely. The generations of hate and hurt won't go away just like that. The sides have to be separated, and kept separate for a long, long time. That means moving the Isrealis out of Arab areas AND the Arabs out of Isreal. Then they'll only have to deal with border clashes.
The only true innocents are refugees who have fled to other countries to avoid being hurt...or hurting.

Bullshit. EVERY woman in Isreal can handle an Uzi. Universal service sees to that.

Know many women that can bench 350 or curl even 150? Know many women that can leg press half a ton? As a whole, women are far less strong than men - and therefore less able to overpower attackers.

Damn right, I'm serious. By the time a kid (on either side) can walk and talk, they've been taught to hate and how to throw rocks or worse.

Not true. Many kids are this way, but it's hardly correct to make blanket statements. And there's hardly anything that some TLC couldn't correct.

So "generally speaking" collaterals don't matter. Methinks I detect some bias here. I firmly believe there are worse things you can do to a person than killing them, therefore body count isn't the best measure of good and evil. Or bad and less bad.

Collaterals <b>do</b> matter, but again, what is worse - shooting a girl in the face, or accidentally shooting a girl in the face? The outcome is the same and cannot be disputed, but one is an inherently wrong act whereas the other is a pretty serious fuckup.

The sides have to be separated, and kept separate for a long, long time.

I wholly disagree. If anything, I think they need to be forced to live with each other. About ten years ago there was a program to bring Israeli and Palestinian youth together. What came out of it? A bunch of kids that loved hanging out with each other. They all eventually grew apart, and in the separation, became alienated. When they were brought back together this last year, the conversations were less than friendly. There are Israelis that are friends with Palestinians and vice versa, and they are the ones setting a good example. Separating the two only increases their ability to see the other side as less than human.

Your pseudo-solutions are typical of someone who does not understand the problem. I suggest you pick up some books on psychology and stop looking for easy answers to hard questions.

[Undertoad]

And stop with the tax money already. Before the US ever got interested in Israel, it had already fought and won several full-out wars. They could certainly peck away at the west bank and gaza if the US didn't send any money at all. That money is largely from a peace agreement and a similarly large amount of money goes to Egypt.

My next question is why doesn't Arafat use some of his billion$ to improve the situation? He's rich beyond our wildest dreams. But it turns out he would rather keep the Pals where they are -- it benefits him.

They've been offered a state, and turned it down to start the current intifada. The roadmap offers a state but they don't want the one they've been offered -- they want the one next to it.

[goethean]

Rumi:

Yes, the British performed massacres, but they could never have made life so miserable for every Indian as the Israelis have done for every Palestinian man, woman, and child. So nonviolence was a viable option in India. The Palestinian population is small enough to control and grind away at. If there were a Palestinian Gandhi, we simply wouldn't hear about him, or he would be targetted by the Israelis, or run over by a bulldozer as the current non-violent activists. There are plenty of non-violent activists in Palestine, and I admire them greatly, but we don't hear much about them. We only hear about the crazy suicide bombers which fuel our stereotypes of Palestinians as an entirely barbaric people who just hate because they are taught/born to hate.

You don't understand Gandhi. Gandhi lifted people up. He encouraged both Muslim and Hindu Indians to protest cooperatively and nonviolently as a group. Example: The Indian boycott of British textiles.

The population of the West Bank and Gaza is 3.3 million.

The Arab population of Israel is 1 million.

The Jewish population of Israel is 5.4 million.

And your explanation for why the palestinians can't respond to Israel nonviolently is because there are not enough of them?

Find me an example of a Palestinian who is on a hunger strike until Hamas stops their violence. That is the Gandhian way. Gandhi said: 'We promise not to be violent to our enemies. We do not promise not to be violent to ourselves.'

As long as the Palestinian people support the violent methods of Hamas, they will reap violence--that's what Gandhi predicted.

If Native American Indians were carrying out homicide bombings against US cities, do you think that they would have lasted as long as the Palestinians have?

The fact is that if the Palestinians had responded to the Israelis non-violently, they would have had their state 30 years ago.

But to distance myself from others on this thread, I find LGF to be racist, jingoistic, reprehensible warmongers.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by dave We're talking about people breaking in to homes and executing the occupants.

I guess I found that one place where you mentioned the girl being shot, but that's the only place in the thread where that method was mentioned. In any case, men don't have that much of an advantage over women in an armed raid in which everyone is military trained, either

[xoxoxoBruce]

Know many women that can bench 350 or curl even 150? Know many women that can leg press half a ton? As a whole, women are far less strong than men - and therefore less able to overpower attackers.

Know many men that can catch a bullet in their teeth?

Not true. Many kids are this way, but it's hardly correct to make blanket statements. And there's hardly anything that some TLC couldn't correct.

TLC from whom? Parents that fear and loathe?

The outcome is the same and cannot be disputed

Absolutely.

I suggest you pick up some books on psychology and stop looking for easy answers to hard questions.

Stop looking for the solutions in psychology books and look at reality. The easy answer is to let them kill each other off or nuke 'em all but those are plain wrong. Separateing them is not easy.

BTW, I love you, man.

[russotto]

The suicide bombers are not a natural response of an oppressed indigenous population or any rot like that. They are tools of whoever is sending them, nothing more.

Israel seems to have finally figured out that they can make as many concessions as they want provided they condition them on the ending of Palestinian violence -- because there's no one on the Palestinian side who can say "stop". Any of the various factions can say "go", and most of them do.

[qq1122qq]

Given that Israel is basically an American colony, I can't see any circumstances under which America will apply any serious pressure to stop the Palestinian holocaust. They'll all be dead or displaced within 20 years.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by russotto
there's no one on the Palestinian side who can say "stop".

I think that may very well be the crux of the matter. Arafat sure as hell isn't in control, even if he did want to stop the violence. And it looks like Abbas isn't gonna do much, either.

Hamas thumbed their nose at him, and he basically caved.

[Torrere]

Originally posted by Undertoad
And stop with the tax money already. Before the US ever got interested in Israel, it had already fought and won several full-out wars. They could certainly peck away at the west bank and gaza if the US didn't send any money at all. That money is largely from a peace agreement and a similarly large amount of money goes to Egypt.

Could you back this up? As far as I know, the United States has been sending Israel money ever since the State of Israel was proclaimed.

How could Israel possibly justify an attack against a peaceful society that had renounced violence in all forms?

So the Palestinians ought to roll over and die, like the Jews used to do?


goethan: The point is that British India was largely an economic occupation. The Indians vastly, vastly outnumbered the British in India. By your numbers, the Palestinians are outnumbered.

(this is second hand, but...) I believe that Gandhi said that what he did would only have been possible in British India.

[edit: I removed a stupid comment to dave.]

[xoxoxoBruce]

Given that Israel is basically an American colony,

Oh really? Then if that's true, the tail is wagging the dog.

[Torrere]

Eck, I've become one of those people who posts large posts that reply to many people and doesn't say much coherent!

[goethean]

(this is second hand, but...) I believe that Gandhi said that what he did would only have been possible in British India.

On the contrary, Gandhi said that his method would even work against Hitler.