Future of Republican Party

[IamSam]

Originally Posted by classicman

Obama's color has very little to do with the opinion of the VAST majority.
Please stop spreading that lie. What they are angry about has NOTHING to do with race.
That is the opinion of the "lunatic fringe."

You'd be surprised. I was born in the South and most of my family on my father's side still lives there. I'm not saying every white person in the South is a racist - far from it - but a certain racial under current still remains.

As a matter of fact, I'll post a thread about it (you can yell at me there, too - I don't mind ).

[tw]

Originally Posted by classicman

Obama's color has very little to do with the opinion of the VAST majority.

Color of Obama's skin is a concern to many extremist members of the Republican Party. Not among Democrats. Not among independents. And not among moderates.

Claiming that a majority of Replublican are not racist ignores the poltiical biases of most racists. Nobody said most Republicans are racist. The only valid question - where do racists hang out?

Why did Romney give a completely different stump speech to a gathering of (what he thought were) all white southern Republicans? Clearly 45% of minorities are seeking handouts from the government. That rhetoric and hate works on many Republican extremists.

Why did he not say that to others? A hate speech to a private gathering was designed to inspire his political base. Which include a large percentage of racists.

When I play the part of a right wing conservative extremist, real world extremists become more open about their racism. Openly racist comments are vocalized when a racists thinks it is safe to be honest and that vocal. Laugh with their racist jokes and they get even more vocal. Many racists are still among us..

In every case I have seen, the racist is strongly right wing Republican. Will often mix anger at the liberal media with racist statements about lazy minorities and immigrants. Of course the color of his skin is a concern with a significant percentage of racists who also share ideology in right wing Republican rhetoric. Part of that party that sees growth. Is strongest in regions where racism is traditionally strongest.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Ibby

I have a question for you, classic. What percentage of our country do you believe is racist to some degree or another?

Racism must be defined before that question can be answered. Does racism only mean you think white people are superior to blacks people? Does it mean one race is somehow superior/inferior to another in certain aspects? Does racism apply to only conscious actions or subconscious thoughts and actions as well? Can cultural prejudice be considered racism? Can only people enforcing power be considered racist?


Different people have different definitions of what racism is and it is very easy to have very emotional arguments over something that is purely semantic. Keep in mind that, while I (and I'm assuming you) disagree with this definition, racism is largely defined as limited to people who have extreme animosity towards people of another skin color and racists are considered to be on the same level of those who committed genocide with that definition. This definition is popular here in the United States due to the extreme racism that existed.

Therefore, while my definition of racism is very loose (I think almost everyone who grew up in a racist environment is technically racist to some degree), I need to be careful throwing it around because some people have a much different definition and can, rightfully, take much offense to it.

[Ibby]

I have no time to care about the poor fee-fees of people who uphold and continue racist structures but feel like "omg no i can't be racist i have a black friend and i think the kkk sux gosh if you're going to call people racist youre just gonna turn them off and make them worse" because racism is SO much deeper than consciously having a problem with black people.
and like, I'd basically define racism as "not struggling every day to erase insidious colonialist/imperialist/racist cultural values from your life and actions" which is about as broad a definition as it's possible to construe, because the PoC who suffer from the effects of racism and know way better than i do what racism IS say so, and to assume that white people know better about racism than they do is completely fucked up.
So I'll "throw it around" while utterly denying that there is any "rightulness" to their narcissistic offense-taken.

But even though I would argue that between eighty and a hundred percent of white people are racist... by anyone's definition, I find it hard to believe that it's possible to argue that less than at least a third of the population of this country is racist. and from that, I find it hard to believe that less than a supermajority of those racists vote consistently conservative.

[classicman]

IAmSam - you described your Lunatic Fringe again.
tw - Go fuck yourself. << that is not an emotional response, just a suggestion for you to entertain yourself for a moment or two.
PH45 thanks for the adult answer, but I'll play with him on my own...
Ibster - Hmm.. I'm gonna say that 78.5%. What do I win?

[Ibby]

No, really, though. What's your actual opinion on how much of America is racist? If you're just gonna be a dick and try'n troll, you're basically admitting that there's no chance for a full and honest debate on the actual issues to occur here. because obviously if 78.5% of the country were racist, the idea that racism isn't a major factor in those who vote against obama is clearly bunk. Do you want to discuss the issues, and the fact that race might actually be an issue in American electoral politics, or do you wanna fuck around and be a dick about it? if the latter, sorry for daring to try and engage in good faith.

[Ibby]

for that matter: when you dismiss chunks of the Republican party as the "lunatic fringe" - how far into the "base" or "core" of the party does that fringe extend? is the fringiest 20% of the party what you dismiss? the fringiest 40%? the fringiest 60%?
How much of the party has to be written off as "fringe" before the moderates are the exception rather than the rule?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Ibby

I'd basically define racism as "not struggling every day to erase insidious colonialist/imperialist/racist cultural values from your life and actions" which is about as broad a definition as it's possible to construe, because the PoC who suffer from the effects of racism and know way better than i do what racism IS say so, and to assume that white people know better about racism than they do is completely fucked up.

I disagree completely. That view limits discussion and forces an issue to be viewed from a limited perspective, and not independent of perspective as it should be.

People of color obviously have a perspective that we can never obtain, but it needs to be realized that no single perspective tells the entire story. Therefore, it is ridiculous to state that a single perspective can "correctly" define racism or any other social doctrine. In reality, how racism works is independent of perspective and should be viewed without any biased.

In my opinion, trying to define racism from our current situation is hopeless because our current situation is so complex. I feel it is easier to create simple hypothetical scenarios and expand from there. That way, it is much easier to test your hypothesis with all available perspectives and experiences, not just cherry picking perspectives to that work with a certain world view.

For example, I believe that society and social narratives should be viewed as a group of individuals that more or less are working in unison. Since that is what society actually is, a group of individuals. From there, we can conclude that most people have some prejudice and every single individual came to these prejudices from different life experiences. However, since people can pick up on similar trends or have similar interests, these prejudices can become aligned in the form of social narrative. As a note, that does not mean every person in the society has to follow this narrative. If the people holding these prejudice have the power to enforce these prejudice, a power structure appears. Since people in power tend to want to stay in power, this power structure is reinforced through policies and culture and a racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. society is formed.

I believe this is the easiest way to define and explain racism. It is general, devoid of biased, and in my opinion, can explain almost any type of racist/sexist/homophobic/etc behavior. What I find so interesting is that once a power structure is formed, it can be reinforced with no bad intentions at all.

Originally Posted by Classicman

PH45 thanks for the adult answer, but I'll play with him on my own...

I'm not here to impose, I am just leading up to a point. But I am going to impose anyway because it is a free country!

As for the racism affecting views on Obama question, it can't be viewed as black and white (). Some people do disagree with Obama because of his skin color. Some people tend to focus on other perceived negative attributes more because of skin color. Some people are influenced by racists but not for racial reasons. Some people just legitimately disagree with his policies.

Have fun trying to quantify it!

[Ibby]

What experiences can possibly lead white people to any understanding that would allow them to define racism, other than listening to the experiences of PoC or consulting bare statistics?

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Ibby

No, really, though. What's your actual opinion on how much of America is racist?

My honest opinion, about 100% of the people in the world are racist about something to some degree or another.
Whites against blacks, blacks against whites, Asians against greens... need I go on?


Oh, and everyone against transgendered males in college with black rimmed glasses and ugly purple nailpolish.
^^THATS trolling and being a dick. ^^

Do you want to discuss the issues, and the fact that race might actually be an issue in American electoral politics
... major factor in those who vote against obama is clearly bunk.

ORLY? That is so fucking backwards, its sickening. Lets look at some numbers, shall we?
Answer two questions:
1) % of Whites that voted for Obama - 41%
2) % of Blacks that voted for Romney - 7%

So, without your bias hat on what does that tell you with respect to racism?

IF you possibly come back with something better than my extremely low expectation of a completely partisan reply, we may continue the conversation. If not. I won't waste my time with you.



(ETA - this was composed PRIOR to the last two posts above.)

[classicman]

piercehawkeye45
Franklin Pierce
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,600

Not bad & a rather memorable post. lol.

[Ibby]

...it tells me that people of colour overwhelmingly perceive the republican party as being misaligned to their interests? Do you argue that this is a perception they hold illegitimately?

[classicman]

I would argue that your thought process in this regard is EXTREMELY shallow and you have already decided upon your conclusion and are attempting to prove it after the fact.

Ibs, you aren't even interested enough to actually answer two extremely simple questions.
Heck, If you even quoted my post to reply you'd have seen the answers were already there for you.
You have proven that you are not interested in an honest discussion.
As I said earlier, I'll not waste my time on you.



PH45 - good info. Thanks for the effort.

[Ibby]

I'm confused? what part of my response shows i'm not interested in answering which questions, which is more than you should expect after going out of your way to offend and hurt me?
you asked: "what does that tell you with respect to racism?"
my answer, having talked to many people of color, some of whom are fairly conservative, was "it tells me that people of color overwhelmingly perceive the republican party as being misaligned to their interests", because I haven't spoken with a single person of color who feels that the republican party supports their interests. If you can show me that their feelings on the matter are invalid, somehow, rather than dismissing their feelings out of hand, rather than yet again invalidating the experience of PoC in this country, then you could claim some kind of high ground. If you make it more clear which questions you feel aren't answered properly, and give me an excuse to show to you how your position is hurtful and dismissive of PoC experiences, you could claim some kind of high ground.

You are absolutely saying that PoC are entirely unentitled to have a problem with the Republican party as a whole. you are absolutely wrong.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Ibby

What experiences can possibly lead white people to any understanding that would allow them to define racism, other than listening to the experiences of PoC or consulting bare statistics?

Observation. My views have been greatly influenced by people of color but it has also largely been influenced by attempting to improve/revise my explanations of the world with different scenarios I encounter. As I said, racism in the US is extremely complex and cannot be explained by a single perspective. Keep in mind that racism from colonialism is only a single form of racism that exists (it is just the most influential). Other forms of racism due exist so basing a definition from the colonialism perspective has limited use.


Just to be clear, there is a difference from being able to form a generalized theory of racism (which I attempt to do) and trying to explain all the effects of a specific form of racism (which I do not try to do). To explain the effects of our specific form of racism, we would need perspectives from a very large pool of people from all ethic backgrounds. Even then it is difficult since many people can look at the same thing and come to much different conclusions.