A National ID Card

[tw]

Originally posted by lisa
Hypothetically, if I could prove that the government was planning on using such a device to track people who oppose whatever party is in power, I think most would agree that that would be a valid argument against such a system.

Again, like anything else, it's a question of the weighing of the benefits vs. the liabilities.

The government has everything it needs to track your movements. Your phone bills. You credit cards. You tax deductions and your checks to your preferred poltical party official. The same government can only track you when you use your ID to prove who you are at a given location.

I see no liabilities here. Access to information in all those other databases (including IRS) requires a court order. This is a limitation that rightly should be applied to an NID database. But if you fear government will violate that database without a search warrant, then we better burn down the Treasury, the IRS, the Social Security Administration, and the Veteran's Administration (as was attempted in St Louis) to protect everyone's liberties. They all would be a greater threat to liberties.

The fear of infrigment of liberty is reasonable IFF one can demonstrate how an NID would infrige on liberty. If you fear that the government will track your movements, then keep that license plate off your car, etc. IOW this fear is really a strawman. For if a NID threatened such a liberty, welll then, that liberty was long gone many decades ago. IOW that fear is not justified.

Hypothetically I can prove that I will attempt to destroy your life. All I need is some basic information such as on your phone bills. A little dumpster diving or basic knowledge of where you were born is all I need. That is a legitatite threat to your liberty. If government is using credit cards, etc to track you, then you are probably a risk to my liberties anyway. Why are you not concerned about this threat to your liberty that is, by far, a greater threat than any western government?

The hypothetical threat that is clear - ID theft will increase tremendously if we have no NID or equivalent. Threats to liberties will increase if we do nothing. That is a given as even proven by the pizza shop example. If not an NID, then what? Today's security measures will not be acceptable within a decade as everyone builds databases on individuals. Will you instead ban databases? What is the alternative? The only alternative to no National ID system is less liberties for all.

[Undertoad]

<i>If you fear that the government will track your movements, then keep that license plate off your car, etc. IOW this fear is really a strawman. For if a NID threatened such a liberty, welll then, that liberty was long gone many decades ago. IOW that fear is not justified.
</i>

Even though it's theoretically illegal for me to poke you in the arm really hard, I could probably do so without being arrested or charged with any crime.

Therefore, I should be permitted to poke you in the eye really hard.

Even though it's theoretically illegal for a government to "track" you via your license plate -- because that constitutes prior restraint, restriction on travel, and cuts into about a hundred other natural rights -- the constitutionality of many laws has never been tried in court.

So using the fact that a govt could theoretically "track" you via your license plate is irrelevant to the NID discussion, except that what's illegal, immoral and unconstitutional to do with a license number would also be illegal, immoral, and unconstitutional to do with a NID system.

I'm sure most of us know of a case where someone "knew somebody" and used their license information to gather further details on them. I consider such acts immoral, unconstitutional, and very probably illegal. I would expect that such information would be inadmissible in court. However, that doesn't stop it from happening.

Luckily most such occurences are about as harmful as a poke in the arm. Let's keep it at that level, shall we?

[tw]

Originally posted by jaguar
tw: If you put all your eggs in one basket doesn't mean than when it does get stolen, and lets be seirous here it will be, the same as passports are you will be TOTALLY stuff instead of partly stuffed with one ID thingy such as your credit card?

The question of one basket is indeed serious. First, a National ID system does not work without a master database. Transactions with a master database is not a theat to individuals. But control of the database is key to point two of the Strategic Objective. Control of the database IS a threat to some in our society if it is diversified.

As for passport fraud, that exists because no NID exists. You loose a passport: problem because the passport can be manipulated to make another appear to be you. However most are not concerned about stealing your passport. They can counterfeit your passport easier with their picture on it. The US Passport is considered about the best ID system we have. And it is routinely counterfeited like those old $100 bills.

Key to an NID is a secure transaction system where your physical ID is verified to a secure database. Currently, your passport - an obsolete technology - is valid only because it contains your picture, insecurely attached, inside that passport.

Passports long ago were not secure ID. It gets worse with the decades. Look, even paper money and corporate payroll checks are no long secure means of transactions. We still operate a society based upon the assumption that those old verification methods work. Welcome to the 21st Century. We no longer have a valid ID confirmation system - point 1. We have never had a personal ID security system - point 2. Those are the two Strategic Objectives now required in the 21st Century that were not necesary in the 20th Century.


You loose your NID card. No problem. A secure database makes such a card useless to anyone but you. You loose your passport. One only need replace your picture with theirs - and steal you good name. Then there is the birth certificate. Once someone gets a copy of that, then they have access to your entire reputation - because there is no NID.

Currently, we have all our eggs in one basket - that is full of holes. We have NO identity protection system. We have NO identity proving system. We have a basket chock full of holes and not attempt even to patch those holes. Would you keep putting your eggs in that basket? We have no other basket and never will until we have an NID or something equivalent.

The threat to an NID is not in the individual's card. It is in the master database. Not because it threatens the general public's liberties. Because there are some special individuals in our society whose identities must remain secure.

[jaguar]

So the NID as it stands (basing on what you said) would valiadte with a database every time you used it.....Giving your location and what you are doing to whoever controls it (the govt)

Ok now i'm really scared.

[russotto]

Originally posted by tw

The government has everything it needs to track your movements. Your phone bills. You credit cards. You tax deductions and your checks to your preferred poltical party official. The same government can only track you when you use your ID to prove who you are at a given location.

My credit cards show what I want them to show -- I can pay cash for that which I don't want to show.

If I refrain from deducting an expense I don't want the govt to know about (which probably isn't deductable anyway), that's not an issue.

I don't write checks to politicians; I pay them with sacks labeled with a "$", like any sensible person.

And even if I use my ID to prove who I am, they can't track it, because there currently isn't a system in place to do so. The bouncer at Delilah's Den doesn't have to -- and therefore doesn't -- enter my name into the system.

I see no liabilities here. Access to information in all those other databases (including IRS) requires a court order. This is a limitation that rightly should be applied to an NID database. But if you fear government will violate that database without a search warrant, then we better burn down the Treasury, the IRS, the Social Security Administration, and the Veteran's Administration (as was attempted in St Louis) to protect everyone's liberties. They all would be a greater threat to liberties.

The government can and will examine those databases at its leisure, legally (under some anti-drug or anti-terrorism excuse) or clandestinely.

The fear of infrigment of liberty is reasonable IFF one can demonstrate how an NID would infrige on liberty. If you fear that the government will track your movements, then keep that license plate off your car, etc.

That's a good idea, except that not having the license plate makes me more conspicuous than having one. Which is the problem with National ID -- you can't just not have one or not use one, that'll set off flags from here to Washington, D.C.

IOW this fear is really a strawman. For if a NID threatened such a liberty, welll then, that liberty was long gone many decades ago. IOW that fear is not justified.

Or that liberty has already been infringed upon, though not yet totally destroyed.

[tw]

Originally posted by jaguar
So the NID as it stands (basing on what you said) would valiadte with a database every time you used it.....Giving your location and what you are doing to whoever controls it (the govt)

Ok now i'm really scared.

Using the logic as I understand it, you would have EasyPass banned because government could (and openly does) track you? Doesn't matter that you can choose not to be in the EasyPass system. Just the fact that others can use EasyPass is a threat to your liberties. (Parallel example is: does not matter that you have no NID. A National ID system for others use is still a threat to your liberties).

At least with a National ID, you can choose when and where to use it. Furthermore if you have a NID and don't use it, then the the 'powers you fear' have zero useful information. With EasyPass, anyone can track your movements at any time. All those secret monitors don't even require a court order or search warrant. They can track you without your knowledge.

If you have a fear of NID, then you must be turning blue over others that have EasyPass.

However if EasyPass does not threaten your liberties, then the NID is a zero threat. Why do I not hear any fear of EasyPass and the other equivalent system that will arrive?

Why do I hear no screaming fear of all those cameras on the highways monitoring for who?

Then there are Bank Cards. Heaven fear the end of the universe! Not only can they track you (and they do so) but they take your picture! They also take pictures of your companions. They will get you through your friends! Now there is something really to fear. ATMs are one step short of big brother monitors. They can track your card use, take your picture, and they can be everywhere monitoring your movements without knowledge - taking pictures as you move about even if you don't use that BankCard any more.

Again, if the BankCard is no threat to your liberties, the NID empowers your liberties even greater. We know that no NID means you WILL have less liberties as your good name sits like a target just waiting for anyone to steal. No NID or the equivalent means you will definitely have more threats to your liberties.

Again, I don't read a single logic reason for this fear of NID. I only read fear of everyone else. I read a fear of any system that exists even though you choose not to participate. It sounds psychotic; not logical.

[jaguar]

Its the centralisation and agregation of htat data that makes it one step more dangerous.

Assuming the scope of use of these things and thier virtually mandatory nature (like social security numbers) they detailed record of your actions and movements that woiuld be put together and accessable instantly is a scary thought. Realtime tracking of your location that previously would have required totaly access to a nubmer of private databases.

However if EasyPass does not threaten your liberties

Actually - yes ti does its a tradeoff people make for ease of living. I'm quite sure, as a similar system was implimented ehre on a smaller scale (less tollroads) and many choose again'st it for the exact reason you are saying is non-existant. To argue that it will be volantary is an absolutle crock of shit. THe fact it that for govermental urposes the system msut require nealry everyone with any degree of mobility around society to have it if it is to serve a useful purpose to law enforcement. It will be similar to a social security number.

Then there are Bank Cards. Heaven fear the end of the universe! Not only can they track you (and they do so) but they take your picture! They also take pictures of your companions. They will get you through your friends! Now there is something really to fear. ATMs are one step short of big brother monitors. They can track your card use, take your picture, and they can be everywhere monitoring your movements without knowledge - taking pictures as you move about even if you don't use that BankCard any more.

Oh please. For a start the angle of hte cameras is such that you'd ahve fantastic picutres of peoples bodies but no head for random shots and that is a PRIVATE COMMERCIAL DATABASE. Which isdifferent form a GOVERMENT CONTROLLED DATABASE.

We know that no NID means you WILL have less liberties as your good name sits like a target just waiting for anyone to steal

Carefuly chosen words there for someone who distains emotion in rational arguements. TO full steal an identity you ned an array of documents that is not all that eeasy to eachieve and christ, you think and NID is going ot be totally secure?? What are the going to sue? Magstrip? Smartcard? all are pretty hack-up able.

Your arguement seems to be that we have no civil liberties and rights to privicy as it is so lets roll over and cop a little more. Have very saddening.

I read a fear of any system that exists even though you choose not to participate. It sounds psychotic; not logical.

Sounds like someone useing a commonly used debating tactic of taking an arguement beyond its logical limit to me.

[tw]

Originally posted by jaguar
Actually - yes [EasyPass] does its a tradeoff people make for ease of living. I'm quite sure, as a similar system was implimented ehre on a smaller scale (less tollroads) and many choose again'st it for the exact reason you are saying is non-existant. To argue that it will be volantary is an absolutle crock of shit. THe fact it that for govermental urposes the system msut require nealry everyone with any degree of mobility around society to have it if it is to serve a useful purpose to law enforcement. It will be similar to a social security number. ...

TO full steal an identity you ned an array of documents that is not all that eeasy to eachieve and christ, you think and NID is going ot be totally secure?? What are the going to sue? Magstrip? Smartcard? all are pretty hack-up able.

It must be a government trap to collect information on us. IOW a fear of NID is, in part, because one doesn't know how such a system would work and therefore only assumes the worst. My god. Should we also fear the arrival of a Godzilla movie?

If government wanted to make a system mandatory (as fears insist), then EasyPass would be a required of all drivers. However EasyPass exists. Therefore the fearful do not emotionally fear that system. It already exists. EasyPass is now only "a tradeoff people make for ease of living."

Another silly assumption - that a National ID verification system must have everyone's participation in order to work. It does not matter how many other people are in the system. A verification system is only a secure, encrypted verification of one person and his confirmation data. Is that system threatened or non-functional because the guy who lives on the corner does not participate? Of course not. It is that obvious!

Embarrassingly obvious is that a verification system is not compromised by the non-participant. Why then would one claim an NID system could not work without mandatory participation? The erroneous claim must be made to justify the original fear. It is fear, only, of a National ID verification system that is the only reason to deny others those benefits.

Identity theft is easily conducted as the Passport office lady repeatedly proved. Just get a birth certificate. Today its even easier. Computers that routinely counterfeit driver's licenses and older $100 bills can easily counterfeit 1950/60 birth certificates. Furthermore, the counterfeited document cannot be verified. But birth cerifiicates are considered sufficient and acceptable as ID - in a country that has no ID confirmation system and that most needs such abilities. Having a birth certificate is sufficient to get other ID documents such as a Social Security number. Currently, Russian mafia routinely operate with handfuls of social security numbers and other IDs so as to constantly change their identity. Why do they fear a National ID system? Same reasons?

Now we have sufficient counterfeit documents for a driver's license. Driver's license - which is the most secure form of ID verification. Identity stolen quite easily. A largest growth market for the Russian Mafia or any other enterprising thief - stealing identifies.

Stealing another's ID is easier than counterfeiting money! Most of the violent offenders in the Madi Gras, South St riot had counterfeit ID - leaving many innocent people with bench warrants for their arrest. To say ID theft is difficult or non-existent is to be an ostrich.

One would claim that ID theft is not a problem because only 1/2% of the nation currently suffers? How convenient to forget the pizza shop example - the canary in a coalmine. It did not affect me so I should deny everyone else a system to protect themselves? This type of reasoning is so common among those so worried about their rights and so negligent of their responsibilities to others.

A friend notes that his credit rating, one of the highest ratings seen, is necessary to conduct business quickly. It took him generations to build that rating so necessary for his business. But one theft of his ID can destroy that entire rating in a week. Why? We have no identity protection. And yet here we are, those who fear government will decree that he does not not need ID verification and protection?

Its a funny thing about people. We have been under regular attack since 1990. But it took a WTC collapse before people realize that those attacks existed. Well, the world has changed in other ways. Identity theft is a major problem and will only become worse. Once any kind of check could be cashed anywhere. Even with a driver's license, grocery stores will no longer cash even a corporate payroll check - because identity theft is now that common. Liberties restricted because we have no National ID verification system. Hardworking, honest people threatened because we have no National ID protection system.

How much have our liberties been restricted? You cannot even cash a corporate payroll check at many banks unless you have sufficient funds to cover that check. More liberties lost because identity theft is so common.

Why deny others the protection? Two reasons provided. One, the government could track a person's movement - conventiently forgetting that it only is possible if one uses the NID. Two, government would, no doubt, absoutely, because it is so evil, require everyone to carry and to use an NID - even though that same government does not require everyone to use EasyPass and Smart Cards.

Where is the logic behind this reasoning? Fear. Supporting reasons are only based upon an emotional fear of all government. Again I must expand the arguement to address the reasons for those fears. It is not about an evil National ID vefication system. It is really about the emotional fears of its opponents.

No one can track a person's ID if that ID is not used. There are ZERO logical reasons provided for government to require everyone to have a National ID. In short, these are emotional and not logical based fears. They are based only on the assumption that government is 'out to get me'. An obvious reason to so excessviely fear - that person may be criminal. Honest people do not fear systems that protect them.

A government that is 'out to get me' would not waste time subverting woefully insufficient information in a National ID verification system. Such an evil government will instead 'get me' through Smart Cards, EasyPass, security cameras, and Swat teams. And yet one does not FEAR those existing measures? Why? Reasons for fearing a National ID are, in part, because a National ID does not exist. It is the classic mentallity of the anti-innovative. Anti-innovative people fear change.

Understand why one would fear a National ID. It is not about liberties - which will be threatened without a National ID verification system. Fear of a National ID is directly traceable to an anti-innovative, and therefore anti-American attitude : to fear of change. If not fear of change, then outright denial of reality.

We know this much. We know that American liberties - especially everyone's good name - is threatended without a National ID verification system. We know that this may become the fasting growing crime in the next 50 years as electronics commerce and communication only increases. Oppurtunities for such crimes are as specatular and as fast growing as the Internet. Without access to a National ID verification system, a person will have less protection, more violation of privacy, and therefore less liberties. Those who fear change are welcome to not take advantage of such a system. But those who fear change are admonished that their fears are not justification to deny others who require a National ID verification and protection system.

This need to force fears upon all others sounds so much like the religious right extremists who would force their beliefs, fears, religion, and morality on all others. You don't like a National ID system - then don't participate. But don't force your fears - like religious zealots - on everyone else. If there is a problem with a National ID verification and protection system, then first provide a logical reason for the problem. So far, only emotional fears of a big, evil, snarling government are provided. Government might find out what my face looks like. Oh nooooo, my rights have been violated.....

[jaguar]

Ok look, this is a waste of item unless you define its purpose.
What EXACTLY would a national ID be used for. Where would it have to be shown?

If it is as broad as SSNs then it clearly is effectively mandatory, so don't try and say I’m impinging on your right to a false sense of security. You didn't address the issue of counterfeiting NationalIDs, which means you are no better of in a hopeless attempt to concrete your 'good name' than before except you've given the government another, strong tool with which to analyze your every move.

How much have our liberties been restricted? You cannot even cash a corporate payroll check at many banks unless you have sufficient funds to cover that check. More liberties lost because identity theft is so common.

My 'liberty' to cash a cheque I’d say came well, well after my liberty to move and operate in society without having every action recorded on one big database.

that person may be criminal. Honest people do not fear systems that protect them.

Oh now that's a classic line reminds me of "when encryption is illegal, only criminals will have encryption" or to quote Brave New World "what would you ever want to do in private??" To argue that you only want privacy if you have something to hide is straight out of Brave New World - you're scaring me here seriously it’s just so surreal to hear someone using those arguments in real life! Do you not with to have any privacy at all? Would you mind if the government put cameras in every room of your house - after all only criminals have anything to hide...

You seem to have forgotten the idea of privacy, you seem to be desperate to sacrifice every right you have in order to feel that little bit more secure - who cares if I live in a glass box nude as long as I feel secure....eh?

Embarrassingly obvious is that a verification system is not compromised by the non-participant. Why then would one claim an NID system could not work without mandatory participation? The erroneous claim must be made to justify the original fear. It is fear, only, of a National ID verification system that is the only reason to deny others those benefits.

Doesn't that depend on the PURPOSE of the system, what would you say that is? To purely protect your good name? You truly believe that is THE only use for it? That tracking evilevil terrorist type people (reminds me of Goldstein really) hasn’t crossed the innocent minds of whose brainchild this system is?

Reality please.

So - since the only 'liberty' that matters to you is the one of your good name, i think we can safely wipe off most of the constitution becasue hey - the government is a totally trustworth organisation that wil endevour, if it was jsut given the legal muscle to put all its effort into protecting your good name.

[russotto]

Originally posted by tw


Using the logic as I understand it, you would have EasyPass banned because government could (and openly does) track you? Doesn't matter that you can choose not to be in the EasyPass system.

Unless, of course, you want to use EZPass-only exits or roads. Which there may be more and more of in the future. Not really much of a danger of it becoming universal with EZPass, because people hate toll roads so much (can you see Philadelphians sitting still for tolls on the Schuylkill Expressway?). But with the national ID, there is every danger that the necessity of having one would become near-universal; that is the very point of the national ID card.

[jaguar]

any a point tw keeps hiding behind, sure is not mandatory. The same way an SSN is, but anyone who argues so is merely blowing smoke.

[wwarner11]

No one has come up with a valid reason to have a NID . What is being advocated is that we give up freedoms that we have enjoyed for over 200 years. I said it before and I will say it again if a NID is allowed to be put in place we the people are no longer WE THE PEOPLE. This is a very important point to remember. And as far as making one valid argument for not having a NID, our freedom.

[lisa]

*sigh*

As I said before, it seems like we just keep rehashing the same points. Maybe it's just time that we all agree to disagree.

Unless someone has something new to say?

[wwarner11]

Lisa, you are correct. This is becoming a rehash of the same arguments.

[tw]

Originally posted by wwarner11
No one has come up with a valid reason to have a NID .

The problem with being a NY Times reader is that Daily News readers cannot read beyond the first paragraph. Provided were a handful of examples why an NID is required.

Next Madi Gras, I will put your name on my IDs, smash storefronts, get arrested, use your name, and disappear. Last time, they were released because they could provide the best ID we currently have - a picture driver's license. What will you say when the cops appear at your door with a bench warrant for your arrest? That we don't need no stinking NID system? That alone is one reason. But as Lisa said, we are rehashing what has already been posted. I recommend you first read like a NY Times reader. There are three columns of posts containing numerous reasons for an National ID verfication and protection system.

Sometimes I just think I was talking to myself. However Liza - thank you for originally bringing this topic up in a previous post. Since then I did a lot of reading and asking questions from people who most need the NID. What I discovered was a current system at greater threat than I originally would have thought. There is one curious pattern. Those who most need an NID are those who earn substancially more money, are more often the pillars of economic America, and who have substancial economic activity. How many people do you know whose Visa bill is larger than their mortgage (their mortgage includes a $20K per year property tax) and who pay off that bill every month? These people don't fear EasyPass nor the NID, but really require the NID as defined by those two Strategic Objective points.