Merry F'in Christmas - I want a divorce.
said Mrs Lookout. She just doesn't feel passion for me the way she thinks she should... so divorce is the obvious answer.
i am seriously freaking out right now. i truly love her and i could go on for pages... but i have a 4 1/2 year old son who is the bright spot of my life. I can't even imagine not waking up a couple doors down from him without hyperventilating. seriously. i can't even think straight.
just last week i mentioned to someone that i had absolutely everything i've ever dreamed of. A beautiful wife, a healthy son, a decent career, nice house... now i'll have the opportunity to sit in a crappy apartment crying my eyes out missing my wife and son with the gnawing realization that my sales abilities evaporate when i'm under family stress.
fuck.
Holy shit.
I'm not even going to begin to act like I know what to say. All I can say at this point is that, in due time, you WILL get through this. And whatever we can offer you in terms of support, advise, admonitions or whatever is called for is yours for the taking - we'll do what we can to help you navigate your way through this difficult period.
I'm really sorry to hear this - whatever is going on, join with your wife to shield the child - don't deny or pretend, instead, acknowlege but minimize.
Dude! That sucks man... we are with you... the worst of this is the first week or two when you can't imagine your shit hanging together.
You can't imagine it now because it's like getting punched in the gut. Expect to go throught the five stages, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. I was way better after the anger phase...
You will come out of it stronger and wiser. If you think your life was good before, it will be unimaginably better with someone who DOES have that kind of passion for you.
We are here guy, write about what moves you... you have the freedom to do that and our support.
here's my own divorce thread - a lot of people have good advice in it.
Two years later, things are way better now than when I was married. What a dumb loveless marriage! My big regret is that it went on as long as it did.
Lookout, I don't know what to say to you because I want to make things right and I know nothing will do that at this moment. Some of us here in the Cellar, myself included twice, have gone through this particular hell and I know that I, for one, will be here for you. I know how much you love your wife. Now, remember: you deserve to be loved that much in return. My thoughts are with you and your son.
Crap. I'm sorry man. Listen to Tony, he laid it all out here as it went down and gets major props for dealing with it and moving on.
Is there any way you can get custody? After all, she is initiating this.
Damn.
I'm surprised....You have always said good things about her.....not even the usual husbandly gripes.
I suppose something had to happen since you've been on a roll at work with fun trips on the side.
Sometimes living in a garage and struggling to survive brings people together, as equal partners, with a common goal. But then he becomes the breadwinner and she becomes the wife/mother, jealousy rears it's ugly head. He's envious of her relative freedom and she's longing for the social interactions of the business world, but of course they are both wrong in that they don't (want to) see the whole picture.
Sorry, I'm babbling.....any indication of a paramour?....or career? You know, I have to get away from you so that I can (blank).
Realisticly, we here in the Cellar can't do anything for you except offer dubious advice. I say dubious because we can't know all the variables, only generalities.
But that said, there are people here who genuinely care and make an excellent sounding board. We have a sum total of experience that's incredible and can offer at least three possible solutions to any question in a heartbeat.
Besides, I'm nosey as hell, so keep me informed....please. ;)
she has been very successful in her chosen field for 16 years, in fact last year is the first time i ever made more $$$ than her. so this isn't a bored housewife thing.
boyfriend? she says no. but of course she would even if it was true. just kind of the way it works i guess. she says she just wants to be alone, but i know her past. she hasn't been alone (without an SO) ever. so with that knowledge i have to admit that there probably is someone that she is at least interested in, whether or not she has acted on it.
custody? that would be damn near impossible. she is a great mother, so i have nothing to counter the normal child-goes-to-the-mother rule. i could drag out skeletons from before the boy was born, but that would be pointless and only be negative for all of us. i sat in his room from about 3AM on this morning just weeping. i can't imagine a world where i don't hear him talking in his sleep from across the house. as i type i am listening to him hum the "Star Wars" theme and play with his toys.
the fact is that i love her. i am quite often "in love" with her. but not always. i think "in love" is just the warm fuzzy feeling that comes and goes with stress and happiness in life. she thinks we shouldn't be married because she really honestly loves me, but she isn't "in love" anymore. the truth is that we hit a rough stretch around every christmas because she always gets a bit depressed and starts drinking a little bit more... we've always made it through it before. but she always had an open mind about working things out before. now she has already figured out how we will handle little lookout's weekly schedule and things like that. she doesn't have an open mind towards working things out at all.
last night she was telling me that it is obvious there is no passion left because we don't do anything fun anymore. when we are together we just stare at each other... WTF??? we/she has laughed more this year than ever before. we went to europe/mexico/2 cruises/SoCo, etc. we've been averaging 2 nights a week just the two of us sitting out in the backyard by the fireplace laughing and being goofy, making plans, talking about worries. a week ago she booked a week for the three of us and my parents in disneyland. if she really had decided this "some time" ago - why would she have gone and booked a vacation for all of us? it just doesn't add up.
we aren't the passionate couple we were 6/7 years ago, but who is passionate ALL the time after the first few years, a child, etc? she still gets flowers and other surprises frequently, cards all the time, etc. so, we don't have to fight the urge to maul eachother whenever we're in the same room like we did in the beginning. isn't that what happens when relationships mature?
i'm really struggling right now with all of this. to make matters worse, i don't really have much of a support network to tap into right now. we're not letting anyone know anything until after Christmas - no point in spoiling it for everyone right? OUR friends are really mostly her friends. i have my three best friends back in illinois, but this is so far out of their arenas that the advice will be nil, and i'm not near them so i can't just go and commiserate. my friends here have all drifted away as our economic situation improved and theirs didn't. those that stuck around have disappeared for other reasons. i am seriously sitting here alone with my grief right now. i talked to the pastor of our church and he is great to talk to, but not someone i'm going to go hang out with to get me through this.
i've never had a problem being alone before, but it has been a long time since i even contemplated the possibility of it. i don't even know how to function as a single individual past the college/bar scene days. i'm one of those weird guys that didn't even daydream about not being burdened with a family. it just never occurred to me to think about it. i've had everything i ever wanted.
i was just having a conversation with someone about a week ago about goals and dreams. he was trying to get me to set some new goals and i was having a hard time. he just looked at me like i was an idiot when i said, "i have everything i've ever dreamed of. a beautiful, loving wife, an amazing child, a great career, a beautiful home, and some measure of financial security." what more is there except for more of the same?
if she really had decided this "some time" ago - why would she have gone and booked a vacation for all of us? it just doesn't add up.
OK, then if this is a recent idea she my be running it up the flag pole. Don't salute. Don't give up. Work on making the holidays as pleasant as you can and maybe it will subside if you can pull it off without making it look like a desperate attempt to win her over.... even though we both know it is.
You mentioned you were making an effort to triple your income this year. Could this be a test of whether she or the business comes first? Those trips you took, maybe you said something about difficulty of arranging your schedule to fit them in that made her think the business had become more important than she is. Yes, I'm grasping.
Extended passion is tricky. Too little and you're bored with me. Too much and you're an animal that treats me like a sex object. But more often than not I think it's a catch all excuse for something they can't (or won't) put their finger on.
It seems you've talked more about losing the boy than losing her. Is that an order of priority? Rank of importance? I ask because a friend of mine in this situation was like, she's leaving..oh well, but his 4-ish son going with her really tore him up. As it worked out, the boy spent the weekends with him and they have a great relationship. He'll graduate from Penn State this spring.
Maybe you should have protested the wet tee shirt contests? :confused:
it is definitely not that my career comes first. that has been a sticking point in the past because i absolutely refused to put in anything ahead of her and my son (in that order).
she is much more career oriented than i am. but this isn't a move to give her more time for her career. she is a self employed cosmetologist and is so successful that she doesn't accept new clients.
i have been speaking about being away from my son, more than her mainly because that is a completely foreign concept to me. i have never been separated from a child (except for business trips). the very thought panics me.
if i can explain it this way: the feeling i get while thinking about being away from her are a piercing pain in my chest and a headache from all the "what if" thoughts. the idea of her moving on without me...what if she moves and realizes i reallydidn't add any value to her life, etc. just spinning thoughts, pain, and sorrow. i don't know how, but i know that will be able to stand up again and move on. i don't know what i would move on to... but i know there is something. ( the problem here is that she has been the driving force that has made me succeed in the areas that i have, so what will drive me in her absence?)
the thought of life without my son is a crushing pain in my chest. i can't breathe when i think about not having him with me. since september of 2000 i haven't had a thought that wasn't about him in some way.
maybe this goes back to my thoughts in a very old thread about "what is our purpose?" i thought then and i do now that my purpose is to make my son a better man than i am.
i don't know, i'm getting all jumbled again and i have to go anyway.
time to go coach 8 4-6 year olds in the soccer game. if i can keep from crying while watching my son run up and down the field i will call it a success.
Not much more that I can add except that I agree with Bruce that this might be a test or call for attention. See if she pursues it after the holidays. If so, consider offering marriage counseling. If it is a call for attention, she might just have issues she wants to bring up. If so, listen.
Whatever happens, taking care of the kid is obviously the number one priority.
The only other thing I could possibly say is good luck. It sounds trite, but I mean it.
cosmetologist….oh shit.
So she spends all day listening to women bitch about their lives and how it’s their husbands fault. Now, with a kid, you’ve settled into a lifestyle, she’s afraid of getting into a rut and she’ll end up like her whining clients.
Or, she’s listening to them lie about how wonderful their lives are and wonders why she’s a working mother/homemaker and not traveling in a sedan chair carried by four hunks.
Does she have any men as clients?
I’d speculate that 5 years into motherhood she’s having doubts about herself, you, the future and her choices. Wondering what if, maybe panicking a little about what will be.
Does she have any friends, with their heads screwed on tight, that can council her? Someone she can talk to about what she’s thinking? It’s a pretty good bet she won’t tell you exactly what’s on her mind even if she can figure it out herself. Often it’s nagging doubts that can’t be expressed exactly so they can’t be addressed.
Don’t give up…don’t do anything to make it worse….hide some cash…..keep us posted. :fingerx:
her friends... that has been a complaint for years - that she doesn't have any really good friends. she has been hanging out with 2 girls from work for about a year. one just got married but gushes constantly how "lookout is the ideal husband". the other is a nasty little backbiter who will knife everyone every chance she gets. they both go out a lot and party though. for a year or so she would meet with some of the ladies from church for a Bible study. as boring as those chicks were i have to admit, that she has never had her head screwed on tighter than she was then. she quit that earlier this year, right about the time she started hanging out with the work chicks more, started smoking again, and drinking a little more. there is some history of substance abuse so i'm really just hoping and praying that we aren't back there.
5 years into motherhood... i'm sure that is part of it. the thing that really gets me there though is that earlier this year we sat down and decided that we wanted another one. we agreed to try - just paying attention to timing, etc. nothing so far as fertility clinic stuff. even a month ago, we were still actively following her cycle. again, not activities i would expect if this is something she had decided upon "some time" ago.
male clients? hot chick with outgoing personality who does hair... yeah, she has more than a few.
she doesn't want the stay at home thing, that much i know. when i got to the point that my income could carry us with some comfort i made the offer. it is hard for her to even keep a normal schedule - she loves what she does. end of story. she'll die doing hair.
as i sit back and think on it, if i'm honest about it i'm able to blow through most of her "reasoning" for this decision as pure smokescreen. my gut right now is telling me that she hooked up with someone when she got toasted with the girls last week. rather than deal with feeling guilty and fessing up she is just going to end the marriage -"for my benefit" so i can find someone who loves me the way i love her. that sounds like a huge leap from what you all have read, but with all the little pieces here and our ancient past... it makes sense. sad thing is, that if she just came home and said "i cheated, i'm sorry" i would deal with it and get on with life. but she absolutely refuses to ever be in a position of weakness so that isn't likely. ah, well - it's just my instinct talking anyway.
i don't know if i mentioned it but we are going to see a councelor on Friday. she is just doing it to humor me though. she had the appointment booked just for herself before she dropped the bombshell on me. this is a guy that we met with a year or so ago to help us with communication skills. she walked away from her sessions with him really feeling good about life and came to grips with some of her past issues. if she can keep some semblance of an open mind here it could be a good thing. or i could just be deluding myself.
Lookout, I don't have anything useful to add here, but I just want to let you know how sorry I am. I really hope that going to the counsellor will help you two find your way back to each other. My own biggest fear is losing a loved one. I can only imagine what you must be feeling with the prospect of losing your wife and custody of your son.
I've watched a few people go through divorce. They all make it to the other side. It will suck for a while, but it will get better. But, hopefully you two can avert it.
Good luck, and hang in there.
all i want back is the life i was thankful for a month ago. is that too much to ask? seriously. i don't need to be rich, famous, good looking, or the smartest guy on the planet. i just want back what i had.
All of this sounds a little too frighteningly familiar.
Lookout...good luck. Please do float the counseling balloon, it can be highly useful. Failing that, please always remember that *you* are a valuable human being, and take care of yourself fiercely.
Well shit, that's a motherfucker of a curve ball, I can't begin to imagine how you feel or possibly have any advice to offer but I just wanted to say good luck, really. I really hope you can work it out, you're a bright guy and I'm sure equally tenacious, good luck.
Lookout, I'm so incredibly sorry to hear this. Even going to counseling just "to humor you" is a start, IMHO. You'll obviously have many other things on your mind for quite awhile, but make sure you keep checking back with us occasionally for your own sanity--a virtual support net is better than none.
Sucks like a pail of leeches.
There is something missing from this picture.
Hang tight, don't be rash.
i don't know if i mentioned it but we are going to see a councelor on Friday. she is just doing it to humor me though. she had the appointment booked just for herself before she dropped the bombshell on me. this is a guy that we met with a year or so ago to help us with communication skills. she walked away from her sessions with him really feeling good about life and came to grips with some of her past issues. if she can keep some semblance of an open mind here it could be a good thing. or i could just be deluding myself.
Ya Gotta Believe! If you feel it's a waste of time, for whatever reason, it will be.
Go in there and do your honest best to make it work. Get the councelor on your side to help convince her that you're sincerely willing to work on any issues she has.
You know what you've got to lose. And no coulda/shoulda/woulda down the road. Go baby! :thumb:
Is it possible that working on a second child freaked her out? She may have started getting visions of mini-vans and PTA meetings. Don't give up on her without a fight. She may just need to open her eyes to what she has.
You say she had some substance abuse issues in the past and has started to drink more now. Is it possible that she is once again having difficulties with that? Would you pick up on it if she had started using her drug of choice again? It might explain why she is making this irrational choice that is so grevious all around. I'm sorry to read your news Lookout. These things are always painful, no matter what. Your situation seems especially so. Hang in there, big guy.
dude. don't give up. Don't let her give up. make sure she know you won;t give up. yell and scream, kick , fight, accuse, do everything you can to keep her. and if that doesn;t work, put a hit out on her.
laugh, dammit.
You and your son will get through this eventually if you must, but I hope you don't have to. Make the most of this time that you'll be together before Christmas, doing whatever you can to get her to think twice about a divorce. If you end up living apart, it may be much harder to get her to consider not divorcing.
Nobody can ever say that I didn't have good reason to divorce my husband (the father of my kids), and I love my current husband, but in hindsight, I wish I had taken a different road. I believe the main reason I went through with the divorce was because of someone I'd became involved with (at work) pushing me so hard to go through with it, to cut off communication with my husband and to only focus on why I should divorce him.
And although it kind of contridicts what I just said about making the most of this time, there is one thing about most women that I believe is true - I'm just not sure if I can word it correctly. It's about the "thrill of the chase". She knows you want her, that she can have you. If the time comes when you must seperate, maybe it would be a benefit to you, for her to believe that you're just fine, and that it would actually require work on her part to "get" you.
Cellar ladies...help me out here.....and if it's not good advice, speak up! I want to help, not make things worse by any means!
Good luck. Agreeing to counseling means there's hope, even if she's not serious about it at first. The only other thing that I know for a fact is that my son is MUCH happier now that me and the ex get along great. He was miserable when we continued to fight and bad-mouth each other after the divorce.
Listen to some B.B. King, especially "The Thrill is Gone".
But seriously, I'm in a similiar situation, lookout. I wasn't really aware of the so-called "stages" (I'm pretty sure I'm in the acceptance stage right now but I did go through all those stages, funny it also reminds me of the episode of the Simpsons where Homer finds out he's dying). Here's the best advice you'll get. Whatever you do, look forward. Don't look back and dwell on the things you had (if it truly is over). Regret is one of the worse human emotions causes us to come to a stop in progression.
I was with my wife for 6 years (married 2 years of that). We were together since I was 16, so I can understand how hard it is to be alone after not having been for a while. Find a friend (the new friends I've made plus my parents has helped a lot). If you don't have one, make one (hard concept I know, I've made a lot of friends in the past 2 months than most in my life since I found out she was leaving and left).
Most importantly of all, have fun (once/if you're single)! Don't look for anyone for a relationship. Just look for people to have fun together with.
Lookout,
I can understand what you are going through. My wife recently told me she had an affair, and she is not sure whether she wants to try at a marraige again. This kind of loss is devastating. It is worse than if she died.
I also thought things were OK in my relationship (not great, but I was making an effort)...they were not. There is nothing you can do to make her stay - but I recomend some conseling. I spent many nights crying because I thought I would never see my wife again - and I do love her. I think she is wonderful. Obviosly the feeling was not mutual.
I am still in the middle of my crisis - so I will tell you all how it turns out.
I would also like to add that the biggest problem for me is the affair changed my entire world view. It shatttered what truths I thought existed. My wife could not only love me, but another man. I htought I was special to her, and we were special. That is no longer true. I still feel very insecure about everything.
The world does not seem "fair" anymore - my rose-colored glasses are off, and I see the world for the ugly thing it is: a place that is full of hatred and deceipt. Perhaps I will return to my normal self eventually, but it does hurt, eh?
You make an interesting observation, Hemlock. There are people who do seem to figure out a way to love and hold special more than one person, but it is damn difficult.
Does/did your wife claim to love both you and the object of the affair?
You make an interesting observation, Hemlock. There are people who do seem to figure out a way to love and hold special more than one person, but it is damn difficult.
Does/did your wife claim to love both you and the object of the affair?
In the last few weeks she has said she loves us both....she has also said she does not know how she feels about him...I think she may be trying to not hurt my feelings by lying to me. But she is very confused wither way.
She has also said she is "in love" with him, and not "in love" with me. I read that as saying she does not like being around me lately, but she enjoys being around him. Well, I have been a jerk lately...my wife did have an affair. I see him as someone who says "yes" to whatever she says, but I question more - because of teh relationship we have. Perhaps I have questioned too much.
Either way, she is still my best friend - and I am hers. I just hope we can make it more than that again.
said Mrs Lookout. She just doesn't feel passion for me the way she thinks she should... so divorce is the obvious answer.
Don't you hate that the answer is to give up? I am experiencing the same thing. So your relationship is not perfect. Why is that a reason to give up? Why not work at it to make it the relationship you want? Why do you want to quit? Are her parents divorced? Stats show that kids from broken homes see divorce as a "solution" when a "problem" comes up in marraige. But all marraiges have their problems...it is up to the people involved to work through them, and talk.
Just my two cents...I think she is chickening out. But you better not tell her that...
I tried counseling with my ex for a year and a half, and we remained married for 3 years after we started... all that trying to save the relationship was a massive waste of time and energy. Looking back it would have been way better for me if we had just ended it.
But everyone's situation is different and I know people who "worked hard" on their marriage and saved it.
I just finished reading Nick Hornby's HOW TO BE GOOD and it seems to fit this thread. Interesting look at marriage and divorce.
I've got a book too. "Screw The Bitch" from Loompanics Unlimited. Amazon has it.
I would also like to add that the biggest problem for me is the affair changed my entire world view. It shatttered what truths I thought existed. My wife could not only love me, but another man. I htought I was special to her, and we were special. That is no longer true. I still feel very insecure about everything.
It's an uphill battle to get centered again after having the future snatched away. It's too easy to be bitter and paranoid. Time heals all (non-fatal) wounds, but the scars remain.
:(
I guess what I was trying to say in my earlier post was that sometimes a relationship loses something when it's no longer a challenge...
All of the "you'll be okay" advice is right, but I just really hope your marital trouble doesn't end in divorce. Of course you can't stop it sometimes, but I have a lot of admiration for hearing that you're already willing to forgive an affair, if that's the case. Shit happens, life happens, and forgiving a mistake, or forgiving infidelity even if she doesn't regret it, shows that you're willing to work on whatever it is that is wrong. Sometimes it not only saves a marriage, but makes it better. Maybe she needs to figure out that the passion that couples feel at first simply does not last forever. When my husband and I met 3 1/2 years ago, we would stay in bed all week-end, for the last couple years we've been in a "routine". Sometimes it's only a 2-3 times a month routine. Sometimes, I even feel like I love him more than I'm "in love" with him, but I'm 46 years old, been through a few relationships, and know it would be this way with anyone. I'm going to continue to hope really hard for the two of you...
Any lively conversation and happy roll in the hay can provide us with such a rush that, after a couple of successive sparkling new encounters, free of the baggage of a longer relationship, we may very well feel like we are "in love" with the other person. The human animal is wired that way. It is Nature's way of ensuring that we spread our superior genetics (well, mine are superior, anyway, and I'm sure all of yours are as well) around as widely as possible. New=Heightened *Everything* on the biochemical level.
Unfortunately, we're also creatures of consciousness, and as such, of *conscience*. For my own part, I know intuitively, deeply, for certain that the truest measure of love must include an ample helping of respect, perseverence and common sacrifice. These are fundamental things that build the foundations of an enduring relationship, long after the biochemical boil has eased back to a slow simmer.
How are we to balance our gut level desire to boil with our intellectual yearning for a long term simmer? Beats the living shit out of me. I'll let you know if I *ever* am able to beat this thing and win instead of just describing it.
Wow...I'm sorry, lookout. And laebedahs, and hemlock. I don't have anything to add, but you're in my thoughts. It's a spreading disease -- a friend of mine just moved out on his wife and kids after revealing that he's been sleeping with someone he met on a business trip for the last year.
what the hell is the matter with people? It's like an entire generation has decided that the only thing that matters in life is pleasing itself, and to hell with everyone else. We've created a booming market for "therapists" who charge exorbitant amounts of money to tell us how great we really are inside, and how we need to make ourselves happy and such, but personal responsibility has flown the coop.
For those of you who are being cheated on, you have my utmost sympathy and best wishes. For those of you who are cheating, and haven't told anyone, pull your effing head out of your ass before you destroy someone else's life. I know it doesn't seem like much compared to your genitals getting rubbed by someone other than your S.O., but really, monogamy isn't really all THAT bad.
Oh, and lookout? She's seeing someone. And you know it. [bitterness alert]the number of unabused, heterosexual women in this world who leave their spouses without having an alternate already waiting in the wings can be listed on a single sheet of paper.[/voice of experience] You'll get the truth out of her if you keep at it. Step one is to dry up the tears. She relishes the power she holds over you.
I gotta stop. I'm really sorry, guys (and/or women). No one deserves to get trampled like that.
lookout, i'm really sorry this is happening to you. i've been through a divorce and it wasn't pretty. no matter how bad things seem like they can't get worse, they can. not to be the pessimist here, but with the shit that i went through in the last 4 years has been, well, bleak. i CAN say that things do get better. hopefully you won't travel down the path that i did as well as others and things work out. your efforts to save your marriage are warranted here. no matter what, keep your chin up, stand tall, and be proud of who you are. NO ONE can take that from you.
Oh fuck! All I can say is it takes two to make a relationship so if she has decided to throw in the towel, you're better off getting used to the idea than trying to change her mind. If she is indecisive (and the willingness to go to counseling may show that) then fight your corner.
Good luck.
Well, half of all marriages end in divorce.
BUT
The other half end in death. :whofart:
Well, half of all marriages end in divorce.
BUT
The other half end in death. :whofart:
Pollyanna. :p
My family has just endured a divorce, sounding similar to the one you say you are going through. The husband and wife team i would honestly have said were the most romantic and in love couple i have ever known.. so in love, always picnicing.. holding hands, just so sweet. Then one day he just left her for another woman. completely out of the blue.. and our whole family is still in shock.
I have now seen the wife go from being a strong, beautiful woman (someone who i held as a role model) to a twig thin, emotional wreck. she had pinned her hopes and dreams on this one man and he took it all away. It taught me never to let that happen to me, no matter what partnership your in you have to be true to yourself.. because you never know what is going to come around the corner.
Lookout i hope you stay healthy through all this.. it will be hard but i believe you are a fun, excitng, loving, talented and smart man.. and weather you work it out with your wife or not - you must stay true to who YOU are, and look after your health with utmost priority.
keep on truckin :)
Oh, and lookout? She's seeing someone. And you know it
We don't know that for certain. And maybe I'm just naive, too trusting, and just trying to hope not.
(On the other hand, when a break up
is because of just one person, there's the chance that after a short time, they'll have to come to the realization that that other person is just another imperfect human being like the rest of us, and not some super special catch.)
A woman at work - 22 yrs old, a really cute, smart, outgoing, laughs a lot, likeable, hard working, very nice & pleasant lady - is married with two small children, both her and husband have good jobs, was looking pretty "down" last week. Turns out they're divorcing.
I was not expecting that - it actually gave me that "punch in the gut" like I felt when I read lookout's post. Having experienced that punch before yourself, you never quite forget it.
So what is the biggest disapointment for these married folks that think they want to bail? Life isn't an ABC soap opera - always surprises, living on the edge, and heart pumping passion ALL OF THE TIME!
And most of us are guilty of not trying harder to keep that fire going for our partner, but if we do put effort into it, you discover that it can keep getting better. Age has its advantages!
In real-life, Brett and I spend much more time talking than getting psychical. We talk about... everything, news, racing, theories we hear on TV - History Channel, Sci Fi, etc. or just talking about our lives before we met.
I'm afraid some of these poeple divorcing aren't looking at the big picture. The most compelling, ususally impulsive choice (made in the heat of passion!) isn't always the right one, and isn't always the decision that they'll end up wanting to live with.
(I sort of feel like we're talking about, but not to, lookout, while he's sitting here waving "Yo! I'm still here!"
Again - Good Luck Lookout. You know all of us just want to help - but at that time when there's nothing "right" we can say. Hang in there. please check in when you can.
Hugs to you, Jr and Mrs. L.
And another thing.
Take yourself out of the equation as to why this is happening. This is not your fault. Repeat: this is not your fault. She is making the decision to jump off the plane at 50,000 feet and it is she who, therefore, is responsible for the mess you now find yourself in. It is a popular defense to find some way to blame it on the other party just to transfer the guilt to them - don't fall for it. You did your share. You did your part. Her feelings changed.
Self-doubt will cripple you with guilt if you let it - don't. The only thing that's different now is how she feels. The only person responsible for the change is her. You have basically just been sucker-punched in broad daylight by a family member and should respond accordingly.
There will be a time for self-examination but not now.
Where did all this come from? My best buddy's wife was cheating on him for years. He was never unfaithful to her. Funny, up until the time he discovered the infidelity, he was "the best husband." But, from the time he found her out until the divorce was final, he was everything wrong in the book and it was his inadaquacies that "caused" her to stray. Rather than address her marital dissatisfaction while they were married, she She feigned happiness to cover her tracks. Meanwhile, she's seeing her very wealthy and very married boss.
She tried to transfer responsibility to him by bringing up every reason in the book - he doesn't make enough money, he isn't this, he isn't that, blah, blah, blah. He never understood why she never told him any of this during the 20 years they were married and raised two kids.
Losing his marriage and family was devastating enough. But the self-doubt she planted and watered almost daily nearly finished him off completely. Good thing he had lots of friends to set things back to right in his head.
People who cheat are traitors.
People who cheat while pretending to be happy in the relationship are a big step below traitors.
People who stab you in the back while smiling at you who then make you think it was all your fault are just slightly better people than child abusers.
Some marriages aren't meant to be and slowly dissolve. But its the ones that end "out-of-the-middle-of-nowhere" that have the biggest potential to be emotional death knells to the blindsided partner. If she was "fine until yesterday" then, as far as I'm concerned, you are off the hook responsibility-wise and should bear no guilt for what happened.
But, the attack is coming so get ready for it.
And when it does, we'll be right here to set things right.
She's got her Cosmo-readin', man-hatin', gum chewin, New Jersey accent spewin', dingbat friends of hers backin' her up but you [cracks knuckles] have the entire Cellar backin you up. Man, that just ain't fair. :)
B, I admire this post, good work by you.
B, I admire this post, good work by you.
Excellent. I had to read it more than once to fully absorb and appreciate it - it's just the best advice I've ever read. It sums up of the truth of the situation. Lookout - any time you start to wonder "What did I do? / didn't do?", STOP and re-read this post! Better yet, print it and carry it around.
Well done, Beestie. :thumb:
She tried to transfer responsibility to him by bringing up every reason in the book - he doesn't make enough money, he isn't this, he isn't that, blah, blah, blah. He never understood why she never told him any of this during the 20 years they were married and raised two kids.
Good point. No matter what his shortcomings have been in the past, if she hasn't at least brought them up for discussion, they are moot.
I hear people talking about how they, or their friends, were blindsided, and lament the past xx years being taken away. But that's not true..... nothing chages the past. It's the future, that you've been planning, working toward, looking forward to, that's being snatched away. You've been suddenly voted off the island and have to start over toward a new goal. That always sucks.
First of all, I hope the entire thing was just some temporary bout of insanity on Mrs. L's part. I hope the entire thing has already blown over, but if not:
YAY, Beestie! Great words of wisdom in your post! I, too, have been there. My last relationship of 6 years ended with the most amazing dissonance and betrayal. In my case, I had unwittingly become involved with a very slick con artist who seemed so real at the time. One morning I woke up and he had left for someone else along with over 20,000 of my money unaccounted for. It makes a girl's head spin, and I suspect it would any guy's, too, if he were subjected to the same treatment.
I consider you my worthy opponent on many other matters, Lookout, but in this matter, if that's what it comes down to, I am 100% on your side! I'm a girl, too, and me the other members of the female persuasion around here can give you lots of insight into how a woman's mind can work and give you plenty of support and deadly ammo, should you need it.
I so hope you won't need it! But if you do, count me on your side on this one. Its just wrong!
The only question I have - and perhaps it shows my ignorance of human behavior - is why do people engage in such destructive behaviors?
We as humans can think, and although sometimes we do not, we have the power to overcome our more "primitive" instincts.
No idea here. I guess people are just jerks, and unwilling to change.
The only question I have - and perhaps it shows my ignorance of human behavior - is why do people engage in such destructive behaviors?
We as humans can think, and although sometimes we do not, we have the power to overcome our more "primitive" instincts.
No idea here. I guess people are just jerks, and unwilling to change.
And sometimes they are very selfish.
Lookout? How are you doing?
Oh, and lookout? She's seeing someone.
Not necessarily. I posted
this thread awhile back. I never did see a counselor (though we have in the past). I have mentioned this before, but I frequently battle depression, and am currently on Zoloft for it. As it turns out, occasionally when it gets bad, I tend to blame hubby for what I perceive to be all the 'bad' stuff in my life at the time. Shortly after posting said thread, I realized that I was in a lower than usual low, and instead of a counselor, I upped my meds for awhile, and checked out a bunch of books about marriage from the library. I never mentioned to him anything that I wrote in that post, thankfully. I keep a mental list of all of the things that are great about him and
us so that when I start to question things, I can whip it out and counter every gripe I *think* I have with a fact. So far this has kept me from doing something really stupid, like actually moving out, or cheating etc.
Where I am going with this is maybe the same type of thing is happening with her. She is feeling really shitty (un-diagnosed depression?), doesn't know why, and due to the way the world works, blames the person closest to her for her problems. I am probably WAY off base, but at least for me, one of the signals that I am in a low is I start to question my marriage. Fortunately I have never cheated on my husband when I was busy blaming him for all my bad feelings, which is why I say to noodle, cheating may not be the reason for her 'crazy' behavior.
Check out that thread, there was some really SUPER advice there. I actually feel kind of stupid that so many cellarites had so much good to say, and I was just mental at the time and
thought I wanted a divorce...
I truely hope that she figures out WHY she feels the way she does, and that it is something that can be fixed. Be it getting a less jaded group of friends, on medication, whatever. We are here in your corner while you battle this horrible situation. Hug the little one a lot. It should help.
I actually feel kind of stupid that so many cellarites had so much good to say, and I was just mental at the time and thought I wanted a divorce...
Don't
We are here in your corner while you battle this horrible situation.
That's why. ;)
not doing well at all. she went to the first counseling session on her own and came back with good words. she promised that she will be 100% committed to seeing if this will work. the problem is that she has already decided that it can't work, so she has only committed to seeing it to that end. i will see the guy on tuesday for my session, so we'll see how it goes.
we just had a heartbreaking 90 minute conversation about the issue and it is absolutely apparent that her mind is made up even if she is saying she is willing to try. what she isn't saying is that she WANTS it to work.
we have spent the last 4 nights laughing and joking and talking and her telling me how much she loves me... like a happily married couple. until tonight she has been my best friend and lover with hope for the future - from 4-midnight. she wakes up in the morning cold and distant.
immediately following her session, she stopped even the returning the "i love you" we always exchanged.
she swears up and down and sideways that there is no one else - i remain skeptical. she is throwing out the "you don't make enough money" bit. i make a fair living and it is increasing - but she still won't quit working, so i know that isn't the real issue. she says i am a great friend, she doesn't love me anymore, and can't remember when she ever did.
the hard part is that if i start pulling my defenses together to protect myself for what seems a likely divorce, then i will have put up walls that guarantee a divorce is inevitable. i'm not ready to throw in the towel
it has only been 7 years, and i cannot even imagine a life without her in it. i'm circling the drain into despair and hopelessness.
i know if we do divorce in order to get my fair share of the stuff it will be a battle which will forever poison our relationship - which is only important for little lookout's sake.
i've that i can sleep though. Ambien is a magical little pill. take it while standing over your bed- you aren't going anywhere. wake up six hours later well rested. tht has got me back on my workout routine at least. so, i've got that going for me. otherwise i would spend my nights replaying every conversation we've had, every kiss, every shag, everyday filled with pain where we just held each other.
http://cellar.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6761&stc=1Damn, Lookout, just damn! When I was on the cusp of my divorce from a 20 year marriage, I went into this divorce support group trying to find answers. The counselor said the very fact that I was there meant that my marriage was over. He said that in his experience, once one member of the marriage stated that they wanted out in no uncertain terms, very few couples managed to put things back together.
Not what you want to hear, I know. The accusation that you don't make enough money is a low blow. It sounds to me as if you are making a pretty good living, but what really matters is that your worth as a husband, a lover, a friend, and a father cannot be measured in terms of dollars and cents. Yeah, money is nice, but its only the icing on the cake of the good man you truely are.
And you are a good guy, Lookout. We have violently disagreed on many things on this board, but the one thing I have always admired about you is that you didn't let it get overly personal. I have always felt that at the end of the day, we could shake hands and agree to disagree.
That's another heart crushing blow for her to say she doesn't love you anymore, and, in fact, never loved you. Those words make me think she's got someone else. She's deluding herself, making her actions all better in her mind, and sacrificing you and your son on the alter of some "truer" love. She'll eventually discover how messed up this is, but by then you'll most likely be happily re-married to someone else.
I'm sorry for your pain, Lookout. I wish I had words to make it better. Only time does that and time takes time.
I afraid you're gonna have to wrap your heart in alligator hide in order to fight for yourself and your son. :(
If you do your part, then you will have done what is necessary to move on knowing you have tried. Just remember that a large percentage of marriages end in divorce. This means there are a lot of people out there who have gone through the same thing, and half of them are women.
If it does come time to move on, you will find an available pool of women to share experiences with. For a lot of reasons, the few second marriages I know of seem more centered, possibly because the partners are more mature when they start them.
I agree with Mari, Lookout, that we've had our differences of opinion but you seem like a decent guy who is willing to at consider other points of view. I hope this works out for you, whether with your wife or a future companion.
why is it that there is only one thing that i've ever truly valued enough to dedicate all of my energy to succeed at... and that is the one thing that i apparently have failed at?
You have not failed. She is quitting.
A) i'm not giving up yet. i have faith that all things can be resolved.
B) i know that if this ends in divorce that i will survive. i know there are other fish in the sea. i know it is entirely possible that i will find another to my liking. my feeling though, is "why bother"?
before we met, i was a serial dater. that was about the only think i was really, really good at during that time. i'm not talking just sex - i had a few dating relationships where i was the one they called to go to "upscale" locations and we never ended up in the sack. it was a lifestyle. one that i enjoyed. (the thought of it revolts me, now).
all that changed the moment i met her. i had already had one date that day, and had another planned for that night. i met her and my life instantly changed. i felt it happen and knew it for what it was. 5 minutes later called my date for that night and canceled. i never believed in love at first sight or anything like that before then. i certainly wasn't looking for it. but for 7 years i have not had a thought or a decision that she didn't factor into somehow. a wonderful friend, excellent conversationalist, intelligent, well traveled, adventurous, wild, and the single best lover i have ever had, bar none.
the thought of ever finding someone that compares to that experience... i don't know.
Lookout, a relationship, especially a marriage takes TWO partners! If one doesn't want to make the effort to make the thing work, it won't work. You can be in there endlessly giving 100%, but if your partner is giving 0%, its impossible. That is not YOUR fault!
The reasons you have told us that your wife gives for wanting to a divorce are simply not valid. You obviously make enough money. If your wife was never in love with you, she should never have married you. I think she is being dishonest on this count. She is simply making up a lie in order to justify her egregious actions.
A woman does not marry a man she is NOT in love with - OK, a fortune hunter or someone who just wants to coast might, but other than that, we women tend to be very picky about such things. We hold out for the man we will fall in love with.
I have seen you post here about trying to make your relationship work. I have seen your concern and love for your son. I have seen your interactions with members of this forum. By everything I am able to tell about you, you are a decent, caring man.
Suppose you opened up a stock broker's office with a partner. Your partner never comes into work. When he does show up, he hasn't bothered to study the market or read any of the financial analysis or even notice if the economy is going up or down. As a result he makes bad decisions. Eventually your company begins to lose money because of this, despite your best efforts. Is the failure of your company YOUR fault? NO!
Don't beat yourself up this way, Lookout!
why is it that there is only one thing that i've ever truly valued enough to dedicate all of my energy to succeed at... and that is the one thing that i apparently have failed at?
Sometimes no matter how bright your suit of lights or how hard you try, the bull wins. :( There is no shame if you did your best, 'cause there ain't no manual.
why is it that there is only one thing that i've ever truly valued enough to dedicate all of my energy to succeed at... and that is the one thing that i apparently have failed at?
How she feels is not a function of you. And in terms of what the future holds, how she feels going forward is also not a function of you. I'm not trying to sound clinical but I do think its critical that you grasp the reality that what she does may have nothing to do with what you do. This is the very definition of a failed relationship.
I'm not giving advice but from where I stand, I have a concern that you are letting your guard down and are positioning yourself to be taken advantage of. I'd at least think about going on the offensive - I'm not suggesting that you do only that you consider it.
A marvelous hint someone gave to me at about this point: if some aspect seems too overwhemling to consider, just *don't* consider it. The financial? The offspring? The future lifestyle? The fine details can wait until there's less to think about.
Not to be too trite, but to paraphrase the Graduate.
Three words. Just three words. Divorced soccer moms.
A marvelous hint someone gave to me at about this point: if some aspect seems too overwhemling to consider, just *don't* consider it. The financial? The offspring? The future lifestyle? The fine details can wait until there's less to think about.
Excellent point! :thumbsup: Considering all the variables, planning details before they come up is just a waste of time and energy. Decide and stick to, principles and values that are important to you and the details will work themselves out.
it is very difficult to operate normally with the 1000 lb elephant in the room. last night was great fun, hanging out, BSing, etc. we woke up and all was wellonlu fun family functions in the morning before church. church was great. we finally get back home and the little one is down for a nap.
she was reading mail and i came up from behind and hugged her tightly. one thing led to another and we ended up having th best sex we've had in quite a while.
she's been more friendly but distant since then. it is a roll of the dice to see what comes tomorrow.
It sounds very crazy making and difficult, Lookout. Sorry she is putting you through this. :(
how can one be bored in a "humdrum" routine when in the last 12 months, we've been to Rocky Point, Mexico 3 times, Flagstaff 3 times, San Diego, Las Vegas, New Orleans, Illinois, Spain, Italy, and France. we've spent 12 days on cruise ships in the last six months. WTF?
Lookout, it's not YOU, it's HER. It's not your lifestyle, it's HER. You two have been all over and done amazing, fun, happy things. If she finds that "humdrum"--oh, my. Clearly, she is not appreciating the fine things life has given to her-yourself included.
"Routine" can be more than just day to day living you know. There can be routine in your kiss, routine in sex, routine in the way you always order cab sav instead of trying local wines, routine in attitudes, routine in television watching habits, routine in one partner always being the one to make coffee in the morning.
not that i'm saying that this may be applicable to you, but it is for me... my partner and i travel a lot too but i too get frusterated in our routine.. even though no 2 weeks are the same, i still get frusterated at his attitudes and his need to eat gormet pizzas no matter where we go, and his inability to refrain from pulling a stupid face in every photo.
But then again.. these things dont make me want to leave him.. just slap him around a bit.
But then again.. these things dont make me want to leave him.. just slap him around a bit.
You've told us, have you told him? :cool:
how can one be bored in a "humdrum" routine when in the last 12 months, we've been to Rocky Point, Mexico 3 times, Flagstaff 3 times, San Diego, Las Vegas, New Orleans, Illinois, Spain, Italy, and France. we've spent 12 days on cruise ships in the last six months. WTF?
Stop taking her to Flagstaff, Lookout! There's the problem! Even
I go to Flagstaff! Oh, and
Illinois? PU-LEEZ! Also, New Orleans doesn't count unless you took her there for Katrina.
Lookout, she's grabbing excuses out of the thin air! I still think someone else may be in the picture. Hate to say it, but that's what it smells like to
this girl.
Bored? Try spoiled! :eyebrow:
Well, I just want to add my support, lookout. These people have said some very relevant things here. The main thing is that she doesn't know how good she has it, and no one can tell her verbally.
Lookout, you don't know me, but this thread is just heartbreaking, and for what it's worth, my $0.02:
Depressed people hate themselves, and your wife certainly sounds like she's depressed. If you hate yourself, you develop a certain contempt for people who adore you. I suspect this is at least part of what's happening.
Continue with the counselling. But, at the same time, get a lawyer immediately and protect your assets. Refuse to move out. After all, she's the one who wants to be alone. She should be the one living in a cramped apartment, not you. Finally, I'd say you should connect how you treat her to her behavior. Don't be sweet and kind to her when she's feeding you all kinds of bullshit about never loving you or your not making enough money. Get mad; or freeze her out. Be selfish. It might suddenly hit her that, no, she can't count on your unconditional love for all eternity, and that you won't carry a torch for her forever after she's gone.
You go Doc! I feel like I'm in similar boat as you Lookout, only much less. Everyone tells me I should freeze her out, be calm cool and collected. Act aloof. Let her know that she really may not have you if she acts like an asshole. She may have someone else and be too weak and small a person to leave so she's trying to get you to do it. Fuck that! Let her deal with the situation she created. She wants out - let her leave. She wants a divorce - let her go and get it. I am desperately trying to learn the same principles. Cover your ass and your kids, cuz no matter what happens you'll always be Dad and as he grows he'll learn the truth about how this all went down, who cared for him and know who his true "parent" is!
Wecome to the Cellar, Doc Beren. :)
Stick around, you'll find all kinds of interesting people here.
No matter how hard you try there is no logic to this stuff. No tidy cause and effect.
Kid is #1. Kid will always always be your family. Kid needs and loves you. Be your best strong, fair, loving, grownup Dad. Its a huge test.
Like you, the wife is an adult and responsible for her own happiness. You're not to blame for her discontent, she is.
Good luck, guy.
No matter how hard you try there is no logic to this stuff. No tidy cause and effect.
Kid is #1. Kid will always always be your family. Kid needs and loves you. Be your best strong, fair, loving, grownup Dad. Its a huge test.
Like you, the wife is an adult and responsible for her own happiness. You're not to blame for her discontent, she is.
Good luck, guy.
yeah, what warch said.
this really really sucks. for all of you that have your lives crumbling around you. or have had it happen. fuck that. it sucks that people are so selfish. no relationship is gonna be great all the time, and for her to drop out on you like this sucks big. why don't people have the fortitude to stick it out and work through problems? it's not like you're an abusive asshole who she needs to flee to survive. immature, if you ask me. too used to being single. this is like some early midlife crisis BS. i just don't get it. unless you just annoy her? but still.....she friggin married you. how annoying could you be? dude. main thing is....you gotta keep your chin up. don't let this change your self image. you are a succesful man. and good looking enough to get a new dame. it's a fucking shame that your wife is just like Prince's mother.....she's never satisfied......
folks have posted some good advice here for you. like stay in the house. if she wants to leave.....fuck her. go get some strange.
ok. ok. i'm a little buzzed and this has me pissed. you;re a nice guy, lookout. it's not right that you should get shit on by anyone, especially your wife.
i want you to do something for me tonight. wait until she's asleep.....get under the bed.....reach up and punch her in the mouth.....then duck back under the bed before she knows what's going on. play dumb in the morning......she must have hit herself. asshole.
thanks for the words Jim (and everyone else), but i won't be punching her anytime soon.
we have started counseling so we'll see where it goes. I performed a level III gutcheck and came to the conclusion that this woman and this marriage is something worth fighting for. I may be sitting at the keyboard in 4 days/weeks/months/years crying about my failed marriage but i can't focus on the maybe's. if i do, i will eventually be crying about the "what if's". emotionally she is screwed up right now, and that is putting me through the wringer - but the reality is that she just happens to be the most incredible person i've ever met and i absolutely meant it when i said "for better or worse". this is the "worse" part. (hopefully, we haven't been to the better part yet).
I cannot control her actions or decisions. i can control mine. she may still leave me and opt for divorce, but until that time i will love her the best that i can, i will be the best husband that i can, and i will try to push/pull/drag us through this mess. those are my choices and actions that i am in control of. it is my choice to send up the white flag and pack my bags, to be bitter and spiteful, or to continue to love her the only way i know how. if i loved her with all my heart two weeks ago, why should i change who i am and what i do, just because she is confused and depressed?
there have already been - and will be many more - great days and horrible days. i'm in for an emotional roller coaster ride, and i don't know where this one is going to end, but...
wish me luck, -i'm going in.
"For Better or Worse " ,,
Dude you taged it !!!
If she feel right to your gut then FIGHT to keep her ,
ANY WAY YOU HALF TO !!!!!
As many years as you guys have is NOT worth throwing away !!!!
Fight the GOOOD fight !!! ( it is worth the effort )
Take the high ground !!!! ( You are NOT as Petty as the shit she is bringing up!!! )
DON'T play HER game !! ( You are BETTER than THAT !!!!!!)
PROTECT the Young'en !!!!! ANY way you have to!!!!!!!!
She is unstable at this point!!!
You on the other hand are VERRRRRRY stable( good job , good rep , etc,,, ) , fighting the good fight , remaining CALM , being an ADULT . Looking at the BIG picture , What is BEST for the kid , and if the marrige survives all this fucked up stuff , well that is good as well , BUT the kid WILLLLLL be taken care of !!!
Just my call on things .
Best of luck to you ALL !!!!!
Lookout, you are awesome. Your wife is extremely lucky to have a husband who loves her so much. I wish you the best with the counseling, and hope she is able to wake up from what ever she's going through and realize what she's got.
damn, that's a man with his head screwed on right. I hope if i ever end up in a situation like that I think with that level of clarity.
emotional rollercoaster? doesn't even begin to cover it.
my wife was a mature, responsible, loving, well adjusted mid 30's woman a month ago. i can't seem to find her now. mood swings, attitude swings, to the extreme. one moment she is talking about "us" in the context of the future, the next she expresses that she "can't see how we can ever make it work". her musical tastes have suddenly plunged into whiney wannabe mascara wearing crap like papa roach and their whoa-is-me depressed drivel.
it is like i've suddenly woken up with a 17 year old (not in a good way)
anybody see something like this before? isn't the mid-30's a little early for a midlife crisis?
depression seems fairly obvious to me, but what do you do when the depressed person doesn't believe they are? (and yes, i know that people can stop loving each other with being depressed)
Get her to go to a DR , full blood and hormoan levels , etc,,,,,
Sounds weird but she MAY be haveing a reaction to some of the chem at work ????
Lookout, I mentioned it before and I'll say it again. You said she had some substance abuse issues in the past. Her all over the map response sounds like she may be using again. Xanax, a common tranquilizer, can have the effect you describe when a person starts taking too much of it. Tylenol3 and Percocet, the same. Vicodin is nasty stuff, yet its surprising how many doc's will just write out a prescription for it. People with depression will sometimes self medicate with one substance or another. What bottles are in her medicine cabinet or purse?
it was cocaine in the old days. she doesn't have any of her old "tells" so i am fairly certain that is not the issue. the others don't really fit the situation well.
one of her sisters has been diagnosed and prescribed for chemical imbalance issues, the other has the same issues, but undiagnosed. (or so the family whispers) we don't live anywhere near them though, so i don't know what their everyday behavior looks like.
she was so terrified of becoming addicted to anything again that when she had surgery a couple of years ago, she only took the pain killers for the first 24 hours and left the rest of the bottle in the cabinet for more than a year before flushing them. i don't really see drugs being the issue here.
People who use powder cocaine act entirely differently from people on crack. I'm not saying or even guessing that's the case, but it's something to consider.
Is she at all willing to see a doc to discuss the possibility of medication? Nothing from any of the potentially addictive classes, but rather something in an antidepressant? Or has she started taking one and not reacted at all well to it?
Just a thought from a broken hearted guy who was in a similar situation. She may have had an affair and now its over. She is in utter dispair because that relationship is over and cannot live with what shes done to you and your child. She doesn't feel that she deserves you and is trying to be as self destructive as possible so that you leave her. Perhaps he totally used her and she feels like a complete fool. There are a multitude of reasons why she could be acting this way. I'd try to get some of this out in counseling and, if nothing else, start eliminating possibilities till you get to the real issue. Only then can you try to solve it.
wolf - i've seen both crack and coke. this isn't matching up.
the counselor we are seeing is a doc, so if a prescription is suggested and she agrees, it can be done there. she has made somewhat random statements about "not needing pills to be happy" lately. one of our good friends is on prozac to the extreme and doesn't discipline her kids at all, is letting herself go, and is generally just disconnected. she is using that example as an excuse for why meds aren't an option. yes it is just an excuse based off a very poor example, but that is where it stands.
yes - the thought that she was messing around has crossed my mind. i could see her quite easily deciding that all is lost and she is unworthy. "if i was really meant to be married i wouldn't have..." is quite plausible.
I saw a very happy couple go to hell, virtually overnight. After 22 years without a major argument, she developed a chemical imbalance in her very early 40s that made her imposible to live with, work with or deal with. She couldn't get a handle on it and drove everyone, lover, family and even employers, to distraction......and away. :(
Prozac has been given an underservedly bad rap, IMO. At any rate, there are lots of things out there besides Prozac. I have suffered from serious depression all my life, and Prozac was the first medication that ever actually worked for me. I know of the tendecy of a severely depressed person to abuse tranqs and other drugs first hand which is why I brought it up as a possibility. Today I am on a drug called Remeron which evens the playing field for me versus the rest of the world. I don't take xanax to excess these days - in fact I have an unfilled script for it that I keep forgetting to get filled that sits in the pocket of one of my coats. Remeron doesn't make me high, I still demand that my puppy be house trained, and I still continue with my therapy and voc rehab and ticket to work programs. A good doctor will work with your wife and help her find the medication that suits her own brain chemistry best. Your wife doesn't seem to understand that, at this point, she IS just letting herself go, and YOU. too. All she has to lose is her own happiness by not giving brain meds a try if that is, indeed, her problem.
WTF?!?!?! had a great night with the girl that i fell in love with. we crawled into bed feeling optimistic. i wake up with a woman who stared at me like i had three eyes when i told her i loved her. those aren't words heard infrequently around here. how does a person operate like that?
It must be obvious to you that THIS IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR......for anyone.....anytime.
The woman has a problem. She needs help. Be it mental, physical or chemical there's something radically wrong.
Much of this thread has been finding logical solutions for irrational behavior.
Whatever the problem is, it's not you or your lifestyle, it's her.
You've got to get her into medical care even if you have to break her leg to get her there.
Whatever it takes, it's worth it.....she's a keeper...save her. :rtfm:
how exactly do you get someone help when they don't believe they need it - or at least refuse to admit it to anyone else? we've got the headshrinker appointment on the 13th, but if she isn't being honest with herself, what is the likelihood she is going to tell this guy what is really going on. and without an admittance of a problem, she certainly isn't going to sit still and let us cram pills down her throat (if that is what is needed).
Well. Lookout, hopefully, you can pull the shrink aside and give him the benefit of your observations in private. I came across an estimate once that as many as 1/3 of all patients do not report important symptoms to their therapists or physicians. Even if your wife does inform him of everything that's going on with her, she sounds as though she's already digging in her heels at the thought of any medication he might prescribe.
It might be a good idea to find out why she is so adverse to the thought. Does she fear re-newed addiction? Does she consider it a sign of personal failure? Is it wrapped up with some fear of becoming like her sisters? If there is anyone on her side of the family that you could discuss her sisters' issues with, this information could be invaluable for her doctor to know about.
Its true enough that if she does need medication but refuses it, there's precious little you can do about it. Hopefully, the thought of her husband and son will bring her around.
Good luck, big guy!
confusion increasing... frustration mounting...
i am now fairly certain that i'm not grasping at straws to soften the blow to my ego. i can accept that my wife might stop loving me without being crazy.
i cannot accept that her recent behavior is natural/normal/not evidence of mental distress. 2 of her very good friends had their birthday last night, so all of the girls have been planning (for weeks) on going out to celebrate tonight. i drove my wife to the restaurant that they were going to be launching their festivities from.
i should back up to say that last night we had a great night, this morning i was an alien for saying that i loved her. i got home from work today and everything was golden. she was happy and somewhat relaxed. in fact we ended up having a fairly vigorous romp. 45 minutes later she couldn't stand to have me in the same room. anyway...
we are driving to the restaurant and she is seriously on edge. smiling one minute and the next sullen. at times i could see her visibly getting wound up like a top. i missed the turn for the restaurant, delaying her arrival by about 3 minutes. you would have thought i stabbed her mother at a family event. unglued, seriously pissed to the point that she just glared at me as she got out of the vehicle and never looked back.
my sister is there with all the girls and she is aware of the situation(my only secret from my wife is that my sister knows), so she has promised to try to keep an eye on her mental state during the night.
my expectation is that she won't be home before the bars close, cross-eyed, mean drunk. spoiling for a fight. just a guess.
DAMN DUDE !!!!!
Stay STRONG !!!!
It IS worth Fighting for !!!!
Damn, Dude - she's using! Or she has a chemical imbalance. Or...
Thinking over the entire time you've known her, not just this recent upset:
Does she seem to have a higher than average need for reassurance, being told that she's pretty, does a great job, etc.? We all like and need to hear these things, but does she need these affirmations more than many people you know?
Is she bad at making plans for the future and carrying them out from beginning to end?
Did she always have a tendency to become easily bored?
Is she generally supportive and understanding when YOU hit a rough spot. In the past could you always count on her to be there for you, come what may?
Does she talk much about special friends from childhood?
Does she talk about the lessons she learned in this life, saying things like, "I see where I went wrong that time and I have learned from my mistakes." Does she do this in detail, not just generalities?
Does she have a rich inner life that she shares with you?
Does she have difficulty accepting criticism or admitting when she's in the wrong about something?
Does she experience difficulty when she has to be alone?
If any of these questions resonate strongly with you, PM me, and I'll send you a link which might possibly be useful to you.
anybody see something like this before? isn't the mid-30's a little early for a midlife crisis?
Wow... just Wow... I just couldn't help but post since my situation seems to have happened around the same time as yours. My wife is early 40's tho...
2 weeks before final exams, my wife exploded... about how maybe "we" should not be "we" anymore. why? That I'm not sure...
My wife also agreed to counseling, but I suspect she's just "going thru the motions" of it, due to some things she's said... maybe like a "cover your ass" thing. We have 2 kids, and she's specifically said to me that when she's leaves, the kids will stay with me, because they'll be better off that way. I don't currently have that deepest fear of losing my kids (yet, she could flip out and go back just as easily as these other flips)
She seems perfectly sane much of the time we're together, but when I go to work, she loses it. She calls me at work and starts talking about leaving me, or she'll be supremely pissed about something petty (like I didn't write down a phone message for her, when I TOLD her about the message instead)
I work in a callcenter overnight, so when we talk while I'm at work, I have to tell her "I gotta call" and hang up, and call her back when I'm done. Tonight this happened, and before I finished the call I was on, she leaves a message on my cell
"While your busy on another call, I'm going to call your mother and tell her I think she's crazy and a whore"
and she did! luckily my brother was there, and she ended up talking to him instead, but WTF??
this is friggin surreal.
Can I get that link? I'm feeling the resonance...
lookout,
I think you need to figure out a way to get her to have some bloodwork done, not so much for the substance abuse angle but more for other hormonal/brain chem issues.
A good starting place to investigate what may be wrong is
www.medlineplus.gov. The site has some links to flow charts where you can type in symptoms and the chart directs you to possible causes for your symptoms.
This sounds a lot more serious than an affair/midlife crisis/ or drug use. I'd stop entertaining those theories and rule out the onset of what could be mental illness. Has Wolf weighed in on this thread?
My only experience with sudden unexplainable personality shift came many years ago when I was dating a sweetheart of a girl who suddenly turned into this suspicious paranoid bitch. It precipitated our breakup. About a year later I was reading an article on birth control pills and it described as a possible side effect all the personality changes she had undergone. I realized then that these same changes coincided with her going on the pill. At the time I didn't put two and two together and she
didn't see any change in her behaviour or demeanor.
You may have to get someone from her camp into your camp, but as we, and you've, said before: She is worth it.
how exactly do you get someone help when they don't believe they need it - or at least refuse to admit it to anyone else? ....
This may sound extreme and I am not being a smartass here but you could have her committed. I'd look into it first, but sometimes a person who insists that they are fine, when they are not fine, needs someone to step in for them in the decision making arena.
e.g. you'd take her car keys from her if she was obviously wasted even if she swore she wasn't, right?
She may thank you later, she may not ever forgive you. Maybe you need to take that gamble.
Can I get that link? I'm feeling the resonance...
Done! Don't mean to be overly mysterious, but since this is all pure conjecture on my part, I figure people may prefer to read it in private. WARNING! I am NOT a real doctor! LOL! Yes, let us hope Wolf weighs in with further suggestions, also. She DOES work in the field which I do not.
Alas, Foot to the third power, it is very hard to have someone committed against their will these days. You must prove that they are a danger to either themselves or others - a physical danger. Doesn't sound like Mrs. L would qualify.
This may sound extreme and I am not being a smartass here but you could have her committed.
She has to be dangerous, not just wacky.
Please check laws in your own jurisdiction. Some let a doc or cop get the eval done just on the basis of their professional judgment.
The birth control pill idea has merit.
Mari - that BPD info you sent me looks pretty similar to what i am seeing here. i'm no pro so i don't know what that means though. i'll mention it to the doc, but our appointment isn't for two weeks yet and all kinds of bad crap can happen between now and then.
she got home at 2 last night, my sister driving her. apparently, she was going above and beyond trying to get attention from any random guy last night. when she got home she was bitching that she has lost her ability to judge age. i asked why and she says that she thought everybody at the bar was her age, but they were all 22-27. i then pointed out the obvious - most 34 year olds aren't hanging out in cheesy danceclubs until 2 in the morning. she was a little pissed.
she apparently had a blast and says that she needs to go dancing with the girls at least twice a month. uh, no thanks. i want to be married to an adult, not a someone trying to be 21.
Even if I were a Doc, I couldn't diagnose someone at a distance, Lookout. My suggestion is that you google the term and follow the links I gave you. There's lots of info out there on the topic. A great book is "I Hate you Don't Leave me!" You know her best, and if your research convinces you that this might be the difficulty, there ARE things that you can do to deal with her more effectively. Good luck!
the thing with BPD though is that people usually don't become BPD overnight, or, even over a few years. It's a personality disorder which stems from family of origin issues (and maybe a little genetics) and doesn't just happen when someone is in their thirties. It manifests in the early years. I don't think it's BPD. My two cents.
My X wife, an over-educated under-achiever, after selling everything that I had accumulated over almost 30 years of work told me to go get a job and that I did not need tools or or a car or anything else. And that I was a worthless turd. I played her game for 3 months. Then went back on the road. After several months of happy "singleness", I met the wonderful and incredibly cute Lady Rebecca. After almost 4 years together and me getting very sick being hospitalized many times, and even being homeless for a time, we are still together, and Love each other more every day. It's like waking up every morning with your best friend. :)
the thing with BPD though is that people usually don't become BPD overnight, or, even over a few years. It's a personality disorder which stems from family of origin issues (and maybe a little genetics) and doesn't just happen when someone is in their thirties. It manifests in the early years. I don't think it's BPD. My two cents.
Bri, yeah! You're a professional, too! How could I have forgotten? Never mind, don't answer that! Yes, from everything I've been able to learn on the subject, PD's are pretty much an on-going problem. Isn't it true, though, that symptoms can worsen if the person is under stress of some sort, or going through a life change of one type or another? Or am I confused on that point? Anyhow, that's why I asked if Lookout had noticed these things in general
before the current spate of difficulties with the Mrs. If these symptoms just popped up last month, its my understanding, too, that they would probably be less likely about a PD and more about some other problem instead.
PS Get outta that bell jar, girl! There's no air in those damn things! Read Mary Oliver, I'm telling ya! ;)
If your wife has not been a random fomenter of chaos throughout your marriage, she did not suddenly wake up one day as a borderline.
Don't obsess over stuff like that.
I DO diagnose people for a living, and I have a better-then-fair ability to do so based on a written description. I decline to do so here because all of the evidence is not in.
Well, since you're here, Wolf, can I ask a question? I'm thinking more of Narcissistic Personality Disordered folks, now - like the hell being I became involved with. At the beginning, there WERE some things off about him. The biggest for sure was his strange story of his bro's murder/suicide out in Cali and his own jail time for the lost key escapade??????
But I have to say that other than that one bizarre tale which I was never able to put all the bits together on until 6 years later, the man seemed VERY normal. In a wierd way.
He'd had a rough childhood, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. He was (is) a gifted musician. When he was "on" he could have won an Oscar for his his three star performances. It took a really long time for me to even begin to comprehend just how badly off the whole thing was.
In my case at least I can blame the fact that I was breathing air with a content of 2% CO when I met him. You could get lots past me back then. His new GF ISN'T being poisoned (that I know of), runs her own business and works part time doing tax returns for H and R Block. She buys the man's story as completely as I did.
My therapist has met the ax murderer and she confirms to me that yep, he's NPD, and most likely a psychopath, as well. My therapist is NOT given to wild eyed pronouncements, by the way. She's one of the most cautious, conservative people I know.
So, in my long winded way, I guess what I am asking is do PD types in general tend to be good at pulling the wool over other people's eyes or is it just the NPD flavor who turn deception into an art form?
Not to derail Lookout's thread, but still almost a year later, I am filled with stunned disbelief of who the man I was with actually turned out to be. :mg:
Damn lookout. I'm not sure what to say. Have you just up and called her out on this nutty behavior? Sometimes the only way to put an end to something is to confront it.
If your wife has not been a random fomenter of chaos throughout your marriage, she did not suddenly wake up one day as a borderline.
Where/how do you draw the line between "random fomenter of chaos" and someone that's spontaneous, adventurous and easily bored? Someone whos shakes up the status quo frequently?
Not sure I put that clearly, hopefully you'll decipher what I'm trying to ask. :redface:
Where/how do you draw the line between "random fomenter of chaos" and someone that's spontaneous, adventurous and easily bored? Someone whos shakes up the status quo frequently?
Not sure I put that clearly, hopefully you'll decipher what I'm trying to ask. :redface:
Incisive.
OK Cellar, today's assignment is to add "Betty Blue" to your netflix queue. We'll reconvene after everyone's seen it.
for extra credit compare "angel baby"
Where/how do you draw the line between "random fomenter of chaos" and someone that's spontaneous, adventurous and easily bored? Someone whos shakes up the status quo frequently?
Not sure I put that clearly, hopefully you'll decipher what I'm trying to ask. :redface:
There is fun and amusing chaos, and difficult, hurtful chaos that sometimes even crosses the border into evil.
Once you see it a couple times, you know from then on.
I think I've seen it. I think I married it once. :(
bad bad night. we were with another couple and she got smashed, although she says she barely has a buzz. not too many 122 lb girls can drink 14 beers in a 5 hour period and only be a "little buzzed".
cruel. insulting. provocative. she brought up an incident from 6 years ago that has been long settled. except now she says that i've never told her the truth. she has known exactly what happened since shortly after the event - but apparently has recently decided i'm lying.
my head says to pack up my things and my boy and split. my heart says that i love her and i have to take this as far as possible in trying to help her.
i know i am at a disadvantage being the male, but if i split what are my chances of having my son live with me (and have visits with her)? there is no documented evidence of alcoholism, substance abuse, or anything else major. even if there was, i don't think i would want to drag that type of thing out in court.
Lookout, a 200 pound man who drank that much in that short a period would have a drinking problem. She was averaging almost 3 beers an hour. I could do that myself if I wanted to (I don't), but I sure would be more than a little buzzed if I did and I'd have to go into training for the event. I hate to be a broken record here, but substance abuse of some sort certainly seems to be going on. A gal doesn't develop a capacity like that out of nowhere.
As far as documenting stuff, you just have. Then there was the incident when she went out with the girls. There was another incident before that. You've been documenting her behavior in your posts right here to the Celler. Go back and re-read your own posts.
I don't have the faintest idea what the courts might do. However, you need to ask yourself, do you want your son possibly driving in the car with her when she's under the influence? Do you want him to be subjected to the way she behaves when she's had too much to drink or is using some other substance?
Your love and loyalty for your wife is deeply touching, but I am going to be cruel to be kind. You are describing the behavior of an alcoholic/addict. A person who is using is in love with their drug of choice. Period. Everything else, human beings included, come in a distant second.
An actively using person's behavior mimics that of someone with a personality disorder. Underneath the drug or alcohol, there may be a wonderful caring person. Unfortunately, for that person and everyone close to them, they don't get to be that decent person as long as they continue to use.
If you seperate from your wife and take your son with you, you may actually be doing the kindest, most loving thing possible for your wife. As long as you sign off on her behavior by sticking around and taking it, she'll be able to stay in denial and tell herself that things aren't so bad.
Have you had that appointment with the shrink or therapist yet? You need to be gut level honest when you go in for that and describe all the behaviors you have shared with us here. You may indeed have to bring these things up in court for your son's sake, Lookout.
I wish I could give you a more optimistic opinion, but given everything you have described so far, your wife has some serious issues. If she continues to refuse to address them, your responsibility is to make sure your son is spared the impact of her behaviors as much as possible.
I am so sorry that you have to go through all this.
Seems to me if she wanted to break the marriage she could in a heartbeat. Even tell a bullshit story to the cops and have you removed from the domicile, it happens all the time.
Instead, she's playing head (and heart) games, being obnoxious, grasping at anything she can think of to drive you to walking (running) away thinking it's your fault. It's not
Makes me wonder if she has a plan, just playing it by ear or just irrational?
She hasn't rolled across the room like a hoop or projectile vomited yet, has she? :eyebrow:
I'm still sticking to my depression theory, which brings me to my own experience. My husband wanted me to get help because obviously he could see I had a problem much better than I could. However, because I didn't think I had a problem, getting me to a doctor was about impossible. Finally, some friends also noted that I was a little edgy and moody, and THAT is what it took for me to take notice. Don't ask me why a woman will listen to her friends before her spouse, but it did the trick. I don't beleive he had anything to do with that, because he pretty much didn't like any of my friends at the time :)
Are you close to any of her friends/sisters that you could discuss your wife's current mood swings with? Basically, find out if they are seeing the same things that you are. Maybe encourage them to mention to her what they are seeing. Leaving you and your marriage out of it of course. Maybe hearing that someone else is worried about her will help her see that there might be something wrong. I really am rooting for you, this sucks. I hope your little one is doing OK.
i know i am at a disadvantage being the male, but if i split what are my chances of having my son live with me (and have visits with her)? there is no documented evidence of alcoholism, substance abuse, or anything else major. even if there was, i don't think i would want to drag that type of thing out in court.
If you split
and successfully take the kid with you, your chances are very good. If you split and leave the kid, you're screwed. The courts in general are reluctant to change something unless there's significant reason for it. If your son is already living with you, and she didn't try to call the police about a kidnapping immediately after finding the two of you gone, then she has already shown that she acknowledges you to be an equal if not superior situation for him, and she will have a very hard time getting the courts to actively take him from you to give to her. Just as you will if you leave him behind.
well, she hasn't said anything substantial or even looked at me in a day and a half now. that would be the time when i let her know that i've gotten rid of all the alcohol in the house (including my favorite bottle of scotch :neutral: ) and that we will not be bringing anymore alcohol in. i am well aware that she can drink when she is not around me and this doesn't solve anything but i think was a fairly symbolic slap across the face and notice that some of this crap is over - right here and now.
she gets to make her choices on her own. even the ones that concern my future, but i control my thoughts, emotions, actions, and the events that happen around my son. end of story.
Gwen, grant me...
The serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can, and
The wisdom to know the difference.
Interesting, but possibly important move.
Good luck with that, and with everything else.
I'm still not sure what got bent in her head, but you've offered more than the wake-up call.
Big hugs, buddy.
Stand strong Look out !!!!!
i sent her flowers and a nice "pick me up" note this morning. she just called to say "thanks. that was unnecessary. our marriage is over, i want a divorce." she says she isn't willing to see if things can work out because she just doesn't want them to.
i sent her flowers and a nice "pick me up" note this morning. she just called to say "thanks. that was unnecessary. our marriage is over, i want a divorce." she says she isn't willing to see if things can work out because she just doesn't want them to.
Just walk away at this point.
i hear you RL, but call me a glutton for punishment - walking away isn't in my make up. i love her. good,bad,ugly. i love her. there is something seriously wrong with her at this point and she either can't or won't see it. i will continue to wake up every morning and love her the best way i know how. i will be the best husband, friend, lover (and father) i know how to be. she can walk out at any point and i can't control that - but i will not walk away. i guess i'm just too damn stupid.
Sometimes you need to walk away. Love will not conquer all. Walking (not running) takes balls. Sometimes its the best thing for everyone. Gets it real. Its not weakness, sometimes its just what is needed. She has made her call. She wants to be alone. The best husband, friend, lover, would honor those clear wishes and not play these weak games. The kid, however is yours to protect and ensure that you are not walking away from him. I say take him (your family) with you. Give her the space she seems so desparate for. Force her hand. Be the strong one, the adult.
Note: take with grain of sand- I'm just making it up as I go. Makes me mad, though. I'd lawyer up, protect the kid and wish her the best with her emotional journey.
Lookout, my heart aches for you. I am so sorry you are experiencing this.
Don't be a glutton for punishment. Refuse to do that. It is not good for your son and it's certainly not good for you. You can walk away but let her know that you are open to communicate but please don't do this to yourself. I fear if you don't back off she will escalate this ugly behavior until it's simply out of control.
Just walk away at this point.
She has made her call. She wants to be alone.
I fear if you don't back off she will escalate this ugly behavior until it's simply out of control.
Having had a mentally diseased stepmother, I don't buy these assessments. I am quite convinced by now that your wife has a chemical imbalance of some sort, lookout, be it nature- or substance-induced. Her behavior is very different from the millions of women who leave their husbands every day. She is still in the house, you are still having sex, there are still inexplicable "good days"--and given all that, her bad days are just too venemous to be genuine. Every time you post it reminds me more of my stepmother (who was bipolar, back when they still called it manic depression. She took large amounts of Lithium, and even then, once a month or so she would start screaming about how much she hated us all and throwing things at us. We would leave the house, she would pass out for about 12 hours, and when we came back, she'd be startingly fine.)
For what it's worth, I
strongly agree with your move to get the alcohol out. My stepmother's condition would get much more frequent and unpredictable when she would occasionally decide to step off the wagon for a few weeks.
I am not assessing anyone via the cellar via second hand information. I am simply responding to what lookout has posted and trying to be supportive in my flawed way. He will do whatever he wishes which is exactly how it should be. No one can know what is going on with Mrs. Lookout via this medium. Her husband doesn't know! It's ridiculous. From here on out, lookout, just know that I'm thinking of you and wishing you the best.
I wasn't meaning to accuse you of anything, Bri. Sorry if it sounded that way. I just meant that my instinct is that leaving her is the least effective thing he can do--that now is the time to be proving to her that he will hold on tighter than ever, right when she's at her peak of claiming to refuse it--and I just found it interesting that so many people interpreted her behavior the opposite way.
i interpret her escalating bad behavior over the last month and a half as a way of trying to push me away. looking for my buttons. trying to get me to throw in the towel. in her entire life she has never had anyone who genuinely loved her without condition and without limit. not even her parents.
i believe that she does have a chemical imbalance or something of the sort, but i am no expert. i know that she has some extremely deep emotional problems flaring up. i do not know if we will make it through this, but i do know that if i do what she expects and what she is expressing that she wants - for me to give up and agree to a divorce, then i will have proven that i am just like all the people she so desperately has fought to impress and win love from her whole life.
if we have a chance at making it through this, i have to show her that i find REAL value in her. not for what she does for me, or the things she has achieved, but for who she is. if i walk away she has no incentive, catalyst, "oppressor" to get her to deal with the real issues. she needs professional help. i cannot force her into proper health, but i can love her unconditionally and encourage her.
if it all fails and she refuses to get help, what have i lost? nothing. sure, a few days/weeks/months. but what have i really lost? the same thing i will have lost if i walk away right now - the woman that i love. i know that reading through this thread she sounds like a miserable POS that i should be glad to be rid of - but that isn't all there is to her.
if i walk away now, i will have lost something else that i value. a piece of me. the part of me that has always promised to love her, care for her, and help her without condition.
she may forsake her promises and walk away. if she does, sooner or later her demons will rise again and she will have to deal with the consequences. i will not break my promises to her, or myself.
***
and Bri, i understand what you were saying and didn't take it the wrong way. thanks for your support.
Maybe you two should go to Paris for a week. May or may not fix things - and I wouldn't go with the expectation that it will be cathartic - but sometimes the house can get a little claustraphobic when the relationship is not going well.
Somehow, I just think you need to do something to shake things up a bit. If for nothing else, just to break the pattern.
I am not assessing anyone via the cellar via second hand information...
Clod didn't say you were wrong, only that she has a different opinion. I don't think anyone took your post as anything other than the grasping at straws attempt at support we are all offering.
our travel schedule last year included New Orleans, San Diego, Las Vegas, Flagstaff, Mexico (multiple times), 2 cruises, spain, italy, and france. yesterday she let me know that those would have been fun with someone she loved. 10 minutes later she apologized and was the girl i walked through Rome with. Today she says that she has never loved me.
oh, yeah, our itinerary for '06 was Disney, San Diego, Vegas, West Indies, Virgin Islands, Cabo San Lucas, another cruise, and strangely enough... a week in Paris.
i don't think that being stuck at home is the real problem.
I am not assessing anyone via the cellar via second hand information. I am simply responding to what lookout has posted and trying to be supportive...
Actually, I think Bri has a good point. Its pretty hard to diagnose someone third hand via the Internet, and the two people here most qualified to make a real diagnosis have been wise enough not to.
I've thrown out some ideas trying to be helpful, Lookout, but you need the advise of a professional in 3D land. From what you describe, you are currently the only actual grown-up in the scenario. Good thing for your son that he has you. Please don't let anything change that and good luck whatever you ultimately decide to do!
For what it's worth, I strongly agree with your move to get the alcohol out. My stepmother's condition would get much more frequent and unpredictable when she would occasionally decide to step off the wagon for a few weeks.
Interesting. Usually bipolars drink a lot because it smooths out the highs and lows they experience. Of course anybody can get really sloshed, which is what Mrs. lookout could be doing.
The others are right that you can't diagnose over this medium but it would be wise to note if her moods are cycling faster or slower when she doesn't have access to alcohol.
she seems to be cycling slower but going more deeply negative and her highs aren't as high since she isn't drinking - only 3 days at this point.
i don't think that being stuck at home is the real problem.
If you're having relationship problems at home, they remain with you on the road.
Having them in a country where relatively few people speak English has the potential to magnify rather than reduce the problems.
she seems to be cycling slower but going more deeply negative and her highs aren't as high since she isn't drinking - only 3 days at this point.
Can you be sure she isn't drinking? I mean you can't watch her all the time, but would you know if she did drink via signs?
There are many different types of bipolar disorder and sometimes they can be combined with other issues. In short you need a professional diagnosis and even then who knows if it's really BPD.
one of her sisters has been diagnosed and prescribed for chemical imbalance issues, the other has the same issues, but undiagnosed. (or so the family whispers) we don't live anywhere near them though, so i don't know what their everyday behavior looks like.
This would certainly fit especially since BPD is more common in women and seems to be a genetic thing. I'm no shrink but nobody here can tell me there isn't something off-kilter in her head. That quote of yours is the key to all this from where I sit (in a cushy blue chair).
Is there no way to let her out of the cage for a while, let her see the wide world can be pretty sucky, and reel her back in wiser?
very very low likelihood that she will come back. she is a very attractive, successful woman with an outgoing personality. if she is out on the prowl, the "i can have him anytime i want guy", isn't likely to entice her.
i'm pretty down right now. i deserve to have someone love me. i firmly believe she has a chemical problem, but she is convinced she doesn't so there isn't really anything i can do.
i deserve to have someone love me.
You are damn right! Don't forget that.
Well shit, if you think the court would hand her the kid then you have an obligation to raise the issue she is unfit unless she gets evaluated.
other than me complaining to you all, there is no documented (or documentable) evidence of her being unfit. she has never had legal problems,etc.
Find out what her sister was diagnosed with and if any others in the family had similar problems. That could be enough to get the ball rolling if an objection was raised in court. If it comes to that (and I hope it doesn't) what have you got to lose?
Well, Lookout, you have this entire thread which has been going on since December 9th. You have documentation of your bewilderment and grief over Mrs. L's actions. You have documentation of drinking episodes. You have all our concerned replies. I never thought stuff like this had much meaning, but when I posted on my internet support group about some tricks the ax murderer was playing, I was told to print out my post and the replies and show it all to the authorities. The authorities actually gave it all consideration, much to my surprise. I would again suggest that you make an appointment to see a professional, even if Mrs. L won't go. You will be able to document your concern about her actions and also show any court that you were trying to work things through and behave in a responsible fashion.
You DO deserve to be with a woman who loves you, dammit!
divorce. :sniff: :(
now on to custody, property, and money arguments.
I am so very sorry, lookout.
No one can ever say you didn't give it everything you had and more. I hope the pain starts to go away sooner rather than later. :(
lawyer up, get legal help to make it a clean and amicable as possible. protect the kid and his sense of security during the change. protect yourself, too. You deserve an equally loving partner and I have no doubt will find better days. I'm sorry you have to go through this heartbreak, but it sounds like you do.
Very, very sorry, Lookout. Please take care of yourself and the boy. It gets better. Then it gets worse again. Eventually it does get behind you and the sun starts to rise again.
My deepest sympathy. :(
We are solidly behind you. Draw down as needed.
Time heals all non-fatal wounds. Problem is healing is like the days getting longer. You've got to get a long way into it before you notice and even then it's not complete yet. Keep busy with work and the kid, doing what you have to do and "don't stop thinking about tomorrow". It helps, it really does. :juggle:
divorce.
Sorry, man. I don't know what to say, except we're here for you. I haven't posted much, but I have been following this and sending you silent good wishes. Good karma is on your side.
we met with the psychologist today. i had seen her attitude grow more distant all week so it didn't come as a complete surprise but the finality of it still takes my breath away.
she tells the doc that she has made her decision. her final answer. he tries drilling down but she is a brick wall. we spent a couple of hours talking this evening. everything she says when she is just chatting and not talking "divorce stuff" is appropriate from someone who wants to make it work. but then she will stop in her tracks, realize that the walls came down for a bit and she will throw them right back up. so confusing. i told her that i think divorce is the wrong way to go, unnecessary, there is still hope... but i won't fight it anymore. if she has made her decision then she needs to go ahead and do what she says she wants to do.
very emotional afternoon and evening.
then we opened discussions about money. she said i could have all the money from savings. i said "no thanks, i just want half". she pointed out that i'll need money to put down on a new house. i pointed out that nothing was set in stone that she would be keeping our current house, but assuming she did i would want half the equity. her eyes popped as she realized that she may not be able to afford that size of a mortgage to get me the cash. then she said that she, of course, would need to keep the house so our son can have the continuity of living in the same home. it literally tore me apart to see her reaction when i asked if she really thought i was just going to be a weekend dad and leave him with her.
she mentioned that she had consulted a lawyer on monday (the day after i threw out all the alcohol) and he said we didn't have to go to court if we agreed on everything and just used him. i told her it was possible but not likely and i told her that an associate had referred me to a group effort called collaborative divorce. she didn't like the idea because it wasn't hers, but that is probably the route we'll go. she knows i don't care about money, houses, and cars, but i will spend every dime i plan on making in the next five years to make sure that my son has what i feel to be the best possible situation (outside of happy loving parents :( )
on a side note she agreed to undergo a psych eval to investigate the possibility of a chemical or neurological problem - as long as i understand that even if she does have a problem and it can be fixed with medication it doesn't mean we are staying together. :smack: you ever want to just squeeze some sense back into someone who isn't thinking clearly? no matter she has done, or might have done i still love her.
in an emotional moment she said that if we separate she may get out and find out how truly important i was too her and come right back. you don't go into a situiation planning on that. you exhaust all possibilities and then seperate.
ah, what do i know.
At some point, you need to make the difficult but necessary decision to get off the roller coaster. There's two people that need you to stabilize: your son and you.
The sooner you can take ownership of the pain she is causing, the sooner she will cease being in control. If you don't let her make you feel better with her good moods and comforting words then you are similarly not letting her hurt you when she gets cold. It won't hurt any less right away but you'll heal a lot faster because your emotional state won't be linked to hers anymore. Easier to type up than to do, I realize, but necessary nonetheless.
Consult an attorney. Privately. Better to have heavy artillary ready to deploy and not need to use it than to get blindsided with your guard down.
there is a lesson in here somewhere...
never say "i have everything i have ever wanted"
don't give yourself away so completely that someone else has the power to destroy you.
trust may need a new definition.
oh, there are a bunch more, but they are all BS.
a closed off untrusting life isn't worth living. the truth is that love is real. there are people worthy of trust and love. love is still a verb, not a feeling. unfortunately, the person that i have given everything i am, have, and think to over the last 7 years has decided that it is both and because she doesn't have the feeling, the action isn't worth taking.
i am really fighting bitterness and anger this morning. the good news is that they haven't completely consumed me - because i have this overwhelming wall of sorrow, regret, and just plain old sadness rolling over me like waves.
i can barely look at my son without bursting out in tears. how do i tell him that his universe just ended? he is 4. he is old enough to know what life looks like. he is used to it. he is not old enough to understand that sometimes mommies and daddies become selfish and self-destructive. all he is going to understand is that life as he knows it and loves it just ended. how do you make that a non-devastating effect on a 4 year old. old enough to know what is supposed to be, but not old enough to know that sometimes it just doesn't go that way.
Be careful not to project on your son what you think he should feel. Children are much more resilient and accepting than adults, so love him and answer his questions but don’t add your fears to his own.
Good luck, my friend, you’re on your way now. :thumbsup:
My dad died when I was 3. Being fatherless was not a burden as long as Mom didn't say it was. It wasn't the terrible thing it was supposed to be, from my point of view, because it was all I knew. It was normal.
Yeah, don't tell your son that its the end of the world. When I was growing up I had the Momster and then, I had an actual parent who was my Dad. Since my Dad was in the military, I would sometimes be left alone with the Momster for long periods of time. My Dad would take his duty orders in stride (at least when I was around) and this helped. I still blamed the Momster, though, and not the Army for his periodic absences. I figured she wanted the extra cash his hardship pay brought in, and I was actually right. My Dad never said this to me, though. Even when we had to be apart he wrote me almost daily, and I clung to the life line he offered by being the one loving parent in my life. You can do the same for your boy. Fight like a tiger for at least joint custody. Use your anger in a constructive way to help you get past the pain. Anger channeled appropriately can help you fight for what's best for you and your son, rather than giving way to sorrow.
And yes, somewhere out there is a woman who is just going to be delighted to have both you and your son in her life and give you the love you both deserve. Mark my words.
Mari, you're probably right. After all he's not that bad looking ....for a bald guy. :lol:
Sorry to hear about all this dude , but well i see it from a different point of view , Time to go on the proactive defence stratagy !!!
She is the one going Weird in the head ( sorry ) and acting erraticaly ,
She is the one initiationing ALL this ,
If She wants a change then SHE should do the changeing ,
AS in SHE neede to move out , find her self , find her inner child , or what ever, but basicaly find out just what the FUCK has gone wobbly in her head !!!
You need to protect your son , FIRST and FOREMOST !!!!!!!
He NEEDS a STABLE enviroment to grow up in ,
Think about this , she is slipping , if she slips and falls so bad that the dudes with butterfly nets need to come cart her away , well ,, can you imagem trying to explane THAT to your son ???
Just my thoughts on things .
I agree with those who say don't communicate to your son your feeling that it is the end of the world - whatever a kid grows up with is "normal" in their book, and it's best to treat it lightly.
Most of all - DON'T involve your son in ANY WAY in the negotiations/discussions/battles with your wife - EVER. Even if she tries to draw him in, get him on her side or whatever (and that can be very difficult). If she tries that simply stonewall with "That's between your mum and me, and we both want the best for you. Now, let's go play ball (or whatever other distraction)". Stay in touch with him whatever else happens - that'll count in the end, more than any explanations of how crazy his mum is ...
Take the trip money, call in the pros, and sit back and try to make good decisions based on their advice and experience. Don't bluff, just decide what is equitable in your mind, and then strive to get that...be it house, cars, cash, kids...whatever.
You cannot buy a mended heart, Lookout, but you can buy the best and most equitable settlement. A lawyer can tell you the real deal on her fitness as a parent for starters. Since your child's welfare seems to be your highest concern, you definitely need professional counsel.
Sorry, dude. This must be wearing on you severely. I've been there and I know. It helped that we were pretty poor and my ex was willing to let go of just about everything to get out, so I got house and kid. Of course, I also got a lot of budens to carry with that package, but it has worked out for the best. Get thee to a lawyer, and luck and blessings go with you.
It sounds like she didn't think this through clearly if she just thought she'd take the kid and anything else on her terms. You did all you could. I'd have strangled her personally. For not doing anything like that you've shown a lot about yourself :) I hope things work out for you and your kid.
Not to be an agitator but has anybody ever had a real mental evaluation? I haven't. I'm just curious if it's the kind of thing you could bluff your way through.
Calling Dr Wolf, calling Dr Wolf....question in post #167. ;)
the counselor we were seeing is a psychologist. he said that from what he has seen there is a very real possibility of a chemical or neurological problem, BUT if she goes in for a psych eval and consistantly plays the "i'm fine" angle, most likely nothing will be found unless it is a huge chemical problem with flashing neon lights.
I just got here by way of a Fark classified by the Cellar. Just checking things out and I came across this thread and I thought you were my husband for a few seconds there, cause what do you know same thing here. I have everything most women want (I guess) house, 2 cars, not alot of debt, 2 kids and careers. My husband loves me to pieces, I have been existing. I am not in love with my husband, i look at him the way you look at the alarm clock, important item, but you wouldn't exactly shed tears if it broke. I didn't read all the posts, sorry at work, but I just wanted to comment, and I will go back when i have the time to read more. I told my husband of 6 years that I no longer love him and I wanted a divorce. It was hardest thing I had to do, alot transpired, we are currently in counseling, It helps. So good luck, truly.
I am not in love with my husband, i look at him the way you look at the alarm clock, important item, but you wouldn't exactly shed tears if it broke.
Unless you are horrifically miserable, it is absolutely not worth it to leave. Indifference is not a reason for divorce. I dunno if your parents were divorced or not, but I'm telling you, your husband will never really be out of the picture anyway because of your kids, those kids will be very hurt and sad and confused by the whole thing, and you will not suddenly find deep, amazing love just because you are now allowed to look for it.
Welcome to the Cellar, chimmichunga. :)
I’m curious, why did you marry him? Pregnant? Bored? Escaping a bad environment? Everyone else was getting married? You were in love, then? You thought you were in love, then? None of the above?
I’m not alone in wondering what brings a woman/wife/mother to this point.
All too often I hear, “Well, he picks his teeth”, only to find out later when they were engaged she thought him picking his teeth was cute/macho/whatever.
Sometimes it’s nothing more than, life didn’t turn out like I thought it would, life is boring, he’s so predictable I could scream.
I’m sorry if I’m putting you on the spot here, but if you would….if you can….I’d love to get some insight how this happens…..please. :ipray:
I’m also curious how this situation affects you outside the home. You said careers, plural, so I assume you work outside the home. Does this make you more receptive to flirting at work? Have you had an affair? Have you thought about having an affair? Do you live near me? Kidding, just kidding. But I do wonder how this affects your “public deportment”?
welcome. i would certainly welcome your input on these issues. and i'm pretty sure you aren't my wife. if i said "fark" to her, she would just think i'm slurring my words.
It sounds like she didn't think this through clearly if she just thought she'd take the kid and anything else on her terms. You did all you could. I'd have strangled her personally. For not doing anything like that you've shown a lot about yourself :) I hope things work out for you and your kid.
Not to be an agitator but has anybody ever had a real mental evaluation? I haven't. I'm just curious if it's the kind of thing you could bluff your way through.
Well, I'm not Doc Wolf, but I have had a neuropsychological evaluation. The damn thing took two or three week's worth of different tests at 3 hours a pop. I suppose one might bluff their way through such a thing, but you'd have to be a hell of a lot smarter than I am to pull it off.
I got really fed up with the whole thing somewhere in the middle and challenged my evaluater with "For God's sake, why?"
She explained that all these different tests that seemed pretty much identical to me were psychologists' clever little way of testing the integrity of the patient, along with everything else. She explained a little of how it worked AFTER the testing, but damned if I can remember now what the finer points were.
Anyhow, someone who makes it through one of those pups has excellent health insurance (very time consuming and must be administered by someone specially trained to do it, write up is like 10 pages long!) and probably a reasonable analysis at the end.
Or so it seemed to me.
Anyhow, someone who makes it through one of those pups has excellent health insurance (very time consuming and must be administered by someone specially trained to do it, write up is like 10 pages long!) and probably a reasonable analysis at the end.
pffft! i wish. i will be stroking the check for this one. but it is worth it. i would much rather spend the money trying to help my wife and repair my marriage than fighting in court.
eval = $2000 just for the testing portion.
attorney quotes i've received this week = $5-8000.
The only people I know that got really fucked up by parent's divorces were either a: it was a long, bitter thing or b: they were between about 13-18, younger than that, people seem to be ok, myself included (obvious jokes aside).
"Lawyer Man" by Steve Deasy
(If you like this please
buy it thank you)
Damn! Sorry to hear that you must pay out of pocket for the thing, Lookout! Yeah, the price of a neuropsych eval would keep a small Mexican village in frijoles for a year!
I don't see how a person could cheat on one, at least. Like, for example: One part is a series of story cards that you have to put in the right order. You could have the story end any number of different ways - there's no obvious "right" answer. And they have you do this giganto, million question personality inventory. Man, that thing sucked! It went on and on and it kept asking the same questions in slightly different ways. If someone has already taken it several times and has a pretty good memory, it might be possible to cheat on it, but I think they count on the exhaustion factor to wear you down. If you're trying to appear to be something you're not, you're bound to slip up on question no. 1,004 or no. 679.
You have to be motivated and co-operative to get through the process. Will your wife really agree to the testing?
...snip...
You have to be motivated and co-operative to get through the process. Will your wife really agree to the testing?
I'm sure lookout has a little negotiation leverage, such as: I'll let you have uncontested "y" if you agree to the full psych workup. Or some such variation.
Good luck lookout,
That's what I was hoping: that the test would be long, grueling, and shake out anybody who thought they'd just lie their way through it. I had a very minor one (in comparison) for medical reasons and was very bent out of shape about them asking the same thing over and over again. That was of course what they were testing (confusion). I could have bluffed my way through that but not a test like marichiko took.
I read your posts lookout, and my heart goes out to you seriously. I hope she goes through with the tests, cause from what you say it does sound like chemical imbalance. I am distant and sometimes cold to my husband to steel myself for the coming heartache. And she is doing her best to push you away, cause she can't leave herself. If she could(and what you say of her she sounds like she very well could) she would have and settled everything else from a friends house. IMHO, she is disappointed in herself, something she has thought or been thinking as changed her outlook on her "life". It feels inadequate, not up to the "good" life she has been dreaming of, and it sucks. It is prime midlife crisis age, the omg so many things ive missed out on, so many things left to do. Don't smother her, it will only make it worse. Just love her the way you did when things were fine. There is nothing worse than when your trying to hack your way through some heavy shit, than having your SO throw his damn feelings in the mix too, as if you didn't know how he felt about loosing you. She didn't come to the decision lightly, and it probably took some effort to bring it up. This is going to sound strange but RELAX, enjoy the time you have with her. Continue to encourage the therapist options, but don't freak on her, she needs you to be strong, cause at this point in time she isn't she looks and sounds the part, but she probably isn't. That is the best I can give. I hope i don't sound stupid, and I hope it helps. I wish you the best.
Welcome to the Cellar, chimmichunga. :)
I’m curious, why did you marry him? Pregnant? Bored? Escaping a bad environment? Everyone else was getting married? You were in love, then? You thought you were in love, then? None of the above?
I’m not alone in wondering what brings a woman/wife/mother to this point.
All too often I hear, “Well, he picks his teeth”, only to find out later when they were engaged she thought him picking his teeth was cute/macho/whatever.
I’m also curious how this situation affects you outside the home. You said careers, plural, so I assume you work outside the home. Does this make you more receptive to flirting at work? Have you had an affair? Have you thought about having an affair? Do you live near me? Kidding, just kidding. But I do wonder how this affects your “public deportment”?
About me huh. My parents seperated when I was 3, my dad visited every weekend and him and my mom slept in the same bed until he died when I was 13. They never leagaly divorced, and neither one ever got a steady bf or gf and never remarried. Our therapist finds this strange also. I am a pleaser, I love to please and I love to know that I am pleasing someone. Thereby making me a flirtatious person, I am however a very shy girl around new people. I have only loved 2 people in this world(besides family), including Mr. Chimmi.
How do you get to that point. I am at my best when I'm alone. I am emotional but in 10 yrs(6 married) my husband has seen me "emotionally open" maybe 3 times(his words). I have had no drug use(serious drug use) or never been in an abusive relationship. Mr. Chimms would say I am emotionally unavailable. My philosphy on men, I love you and would really like you to stay but I don't need you. Men enrich my life they don't make my life. My husbands is the opposite in his words, I am his world. My husband bends to my will and whim with barely a fight or an effort. I don't know if you can understand how horrible this is to me. Its like having a relationship with myself. I am a child with no boundries. I could talk him into most anything, and he would give it to me to please me. He gives me things to keep me when he was never in danger of me leaving. Now we wonder can that change? Was he always like this, with me yes for the most part, no one else though. I want him to have the comfort in our marriage that I have, and I want the love he feels for me to be what I feel for him. He is a great husband and father, I am not what he deserves, and he is a glutton for pain, so it falls on me to make it quick or prolong it.
My outside life, hmm. We do things, go places, things like that, we don't just sit around and do nothing. Our therapist says to get out and do things so we are trying. Does this trouble make me more receptive to outside influence, I would be lying if i said no. I am not an idiot who can be easily persuaded by shiny things, so it won't be a he said I have a firm apple heiney, so fuck it lets make it, kinda thing. Have I had an affair, no, but its not for lack of trying, no i'm fucking with you, or am I? No I haven't but it makes it easier for me to justify it, and to feel a lot less guilt over it. I also made a promise, that I would stay faithful to him until the day I stop being his wife. Believe me its hard men smell a wounded relationship like cougars smell sick animals, and it always seems like the reasons not to continue on, are the only reasons you see and are given. Like you have to work to find and see the good stuff.
He isn't the main source of trouble I have played my part, I have given in when I should have stood firm. I should have been more open, instead I hardened my heart and went into survival mode. I should have helped him through his fears, his feelings of inadequacies(sp?) instead I ridculed them and debased them.
Thanks, chimmichunga! I truly appreciate your trying to help me understand this. If nothing else, is confirms my theory about why one of my serious relationships foundered. She married a guy that she will never be able to completely please. :o
There is nothing worse than when your trying to hack your way through some heavy shit, than having your SO throw his damn feelings in the mix too, as if you didn't know how he felt about loosing you... He gives me things to keep me when he was never in danger of me leaving. Now we wonder can that change? Was he always like this, with me yes for the most part, no one else though. I want him to have the comfort in our marriage that I have, and I want the love he feels for me to be what I feel for him. He is a great husband and father, I am not what he deserves, and he is a glutton for pain, so it falls on me to make it quick or prolong it.
As a matter of fact, no I don't think you know how he feels about losing you. That first sentence of yours that I quoted has got to be one of the more callous things, I've ever read.
Like, "Would you please stop bothering me with the fact that I am causing you pain? This is all about MY pain! Mine, mine, mine!
And the dude WAS obviously in danger of you leaving, since you, in fact, are. You want him to have the comfort of being with someone who loves him without bothering to return the favor yourself. Your words make me think of the attitude of an ex-boyfriend of mine who was fooling around on me. "I'm fine with things the way they are. What's wrong with YOU?"
I very much doubt your husband is a glutton for pain. He is doing everything he can to make things work and have you stay around because he loves you. I'm sure he would be delighted to love you sans pain.
You come off as arrogant at best, heartless at worst.
Either decide the man and your two kids are worth it to you and give it your best shot, or else walk out and be done with it. Everyday you linger on, knowing damn well there's nothing in it for you, only increases the emotional damage to him and, possibly, the kids, as well.
My sig line refers to a man who has an outlook much like yours.
Jeez, Lookout, if you wife has this same attitude, run for the hills! :eyebrow:
Not that you asked Chimi, but then you did post to the cellar so, there ya go.
From your post above, your thereapist sounds like a noob. You and your husband don't need to go "do things" He needs to go do things that don't involve or consider you. not in a mean way, but in a "get a life" way.
What fucking pressure on you to be his world. jesus, who'd want that responsibility, no wonder you're emotionally unavailable.
"Gone to lunch, back as soon as you don't *need* me"
As for the guys who can smell a wounded relationship like cougars smelling a sick animal, would you really want to give up the candy to some ass who can only bag a wounded critter and hasn't got the stamina for the real chase?
But you aren't that kind of gal.
Maybe there is a middle ground where you don't have to ridicule and debase (let's face it though, who can't resist a good kick when they're down?) and you don't have to mollycoddle either.
Mostly, it sounds like you both need independance. Not liberty, nor license. My folks had a similar relationship to your folks. Inexplicable yes, but it worked for them. Not all of us fit into the disney model of interpersonal bliss.
Create your own theme park.
Also, please post pictures of your "firm apple heiney". I'm not exactly sure I've ever seen such a thing.
The only people I know that got really fucked up by parent's divorces were either a: it was a long, bitter thing or b: they were between about 13-18, younger than that, people seem to be ok, myself included (obvious jokes aside).
To be sure, I was significantly happier and better off after my parents got divorced (I was 9,) but that's because it was no secret how miserable they made each other. It can definitely fuck up younger kids if it comes completely out of left field.
As a matter of fact, no I don't think you know how he feels about losing you. That first sentence of yours that I quoted has got to be one of the more callous things, I've ever read.
Like, "Would you please stop bothering me with the fact that I am causing you pain? This is all about MY pain! Mine, mine, mine!
And the dude WAS obviously in danger of you leaving, since you, in fact, are. You want him to have the comfort of being with someone who loves him without bothering to return the favor yourself. Your words make me think of the attitude of an ex-boyfriend of mine who was fooling around on me. "I'm fine with things the way they are. What's wrong with YOU?"
I very much doubt your husband is a glutton for pain. He is doing everything he can to make things work and have you stay around because he loves you. I'm sure he would be delighted to love you sans pain.
You come off as arrogant at best, heartless at worst.
Either decide the man and your two kids are worth it to you and give it your best shot, or else walk out and be done with it. Everyday you linger on, knowing damn well there's nothing in it for you, only increases the emotional damage to him and, possibly, the kids, as well.
Oh, ouch. Okay, calm down, its not as bad as you took it. If I sounded callous that is what my truth usually sounds like (I felt no need to sugar coat it). I simply meant that it's understood that shes causing heartache to him and and in my situation,I regret it to the very core of me, If I could forget and lose myself in him I would, in a heartbeat. But If you let him throw all his emotion into yours someones going to break. By either saying fine anything to make it stop, I will concede, or fuck it anything is better than this psycho person. I was not saying suffer in silence, just to find self comfort, try and have conversations
always, if you feel like your spinning your wheels, end conversation and try later on. Thats all I meant, you will probably think that is horrible too but that's ok, I've been called worse( but heartless did hurt a little bit, even from a stranger). When I said danger of losing me, that was throughout the relationship, not about what is happening now. I never said I was a genius at explaining things, but I am much better at it in person(IMHO).
Therapy was more than "do stuff" I just didn't go into full details, it would be boring, but then again there was some sex talk, and a midget. I do want to keep my marriage, I am giving it my best, and Mr. chimm does need some independence from me, he might find that I am a callous stuck up bitch, and he could do better. No I don't want a "fling" but I will not be marrying again, at least not from where I stand now. I just met you so no heiney photos, that takes at least 2 weeks ;)
As Footfootfoot noted, you did post to the Cellar and not some touchy, feely support group. Rock on, and you don't need to send ME any pictures of ANYTHING. :cool:
chimmichunga, thanks again for your honesty.
Do you think if you doted a little he might feel more secure and back off a little with the smothering behavior?
Or maybe flat out say, "look, I love you, I'm not leaving, so relax and stop smothering me".
Possible? :confused:
Bruce, I've been around the marriage/LTR block more than once - to the point where I'm weary of making the trip. I've been on both sides of the equation we've been talking about. What I've noticed is that when a couple begins to get this polarized, its almost impossible to undo the damage. All that happens is that they get further and further into their opposite corners. The one who is feeling smothered is afraid to let the walls down for a second for fear the other's emotion will pour in like the ocean through the break and they'll end up drowned. The one who needs some reassurance feels that if they let go, their partner will vanish never to be seen again. It takes two very self aware people to work this impasse through. We pick partners (subconsciously) who will have the greatest difficulty giving us what we most need. Our partners demand from us the one thing that we feel it impossible to give. Until we do some inner work and begin to figure out why we place ourselves in these spots over and over again, we'll never be able to resolve anything with the people we chose as partners.
I've been around the block a few times myself. I was asking questions to get a better insight into the baggage issue, because being a man, I don't have any. :lol2:
I've been around the block a few times myself. I was asking questions to get a better insight into the baggage issue, because being a man, I don't have any. :lol2:
Yeah, you men just carry OUR luggage! :lol:
Wow I go away for a couple weeks and look what happens. 1st, Lookout - I am really sorry for all your pain, but after going through something sort of similar, I say get your son and take care of him and ask her to leave. If she wants her freedom or to sperad her "wings" let her. JUst not with him or you or your home. It is so important at this time for him to feel comfortable and to be in "his" normal surroundings. The worst thing would be to make changes in his living environment because your wife is blankin nuts or whatever. I remember vividly what my father told me when I explianed that I was getting divorced. "You guys are adults and frankly I don't care about how you mess up your lives. The kids are the only thing I care about right now." From that and in the subsequent weeks and months, I realized how right he was!!!! Concentrate on what is most important - YOUR SON! Take care of him and move on. Good luck & God Bless!
chimmichunga, thanks again for your honesty.
Do you think if you doted a little he might feel more secure and back off a little with the smothering behavior?
Or maybe flat out say, "look, I love you, I'm not leaving, so relax and stop smothering me".
Possible? :confused:
I have said this very sentence and still the panic, and questions. I have said to him all I can say. At least in my mind I have, I don't know what else to do other than saying what i have to say listening to his side and looking for common ground. I am not a touchy, feely person exactly. So I probably don't dote on him enough, physically. Good suggestion, and I don't mind.
The one who is feeling smothered is afraid to let the walls down for a second for fear the other's emotion will pour in like the ocean through the break and they'll end up drowned-Marchiko
Yeah, something like that.
You cannot fill a bottomless pit. I understand this better than I wish I did. Sometimes, two people are just wired so differently, there's no way to stay sufficiently connected to keep one or the other happy or secure. It is a painful struggle.
Damn Patrick, you just keep hitting on things that soo relate to my current struggle as well. "Sometimes, two people are just wired so differently, there's no way to stay sufficiently connected to keep one or the other happy or secure." Thats how my YW and I are/were. I'm just trying to deal with this being alone all the time. Lookout I believe it will get better and since I've read your thread since the beginning, you have to do the same. I'm starting a new phase in my life at 41 and I realize already that I am very glad I didn't wait any longer. It takes a lot of time and effort. At least by starting now I have more of that time and you'll need it too. Focus on the future & your son and DO NOT LOOK BACK. You aren't the problem and your outlook IS the solution! Best to you & your son.
I know it may sound cold, but lots of people have survived divorce (me included) and found happiness on the other side. hang in there Lookout - it will get better eventually, and if you have to you can move on and love again, perhaps even stronger than before (speaking from experience).
Dang. Sorry about the divorce, lookout. I have friends who are currently going through the same thing -- he decided he found someone who "got" him, and that was far more important than his wife and kids.
chimmi, it's not my place to judge you. But you might consider what a vow is, and the reasons that a serious one is important. Does that mean that you are condemned to a life of boredom (or whatever it is that you're feeling) with no escape? No, it means that sometimes living for someone else is a richer existence than always thinking about "what am *I* getting out of this?" It's all relative to one's outlook. If everyone decided to get a divorce as soon as they weren't having their "needs" fulfilled, the divorce rate would skyrocket.
:right:
the divorce rate would skyrocket.
would?
yeah, the sarcastic face at the bottom is in lieu of:
"Oh wait. The divorce rate is already through the roof."
I went for 10 of the 17 years I was married "without having my needs fulfilled." And now just months later, I am infinitely happier, my children are relieved not to hear the fighting and screaming all the time, and my ex is actually tolerable - in small doses of course. I'm sorry, but after her cheating on me repeatedly, lying to me consistently, and stealing checks and money from me too many times to count, I think it was a very painful necessity. Sticking around for "The kids, my "Roman Catholic" religious obligations or my morals only cost me another five years of my/our lives. If I had known what I know now - I'd definitely have left years ago and all would have been the better for it!
Wow, I have been perusing the web trying to get some insight into my own situation and definitely stumbled into alot of insight!
Lookout, I am so sorry for your anguish. I can only imagine how difficult it must be for you.
Like Chimmi, I am having trouble in my marriage as well. I have a devoted husband who declares that he loves me and still gets butterflies. I have no end of compliments to my body and our physical relationship. Yet, I just wish he would leave me alone and let me go. We have so little to talk about and when we do, we argue about the most stupid things. I am hoping that I feel lost, suffocated, and drowning simply because of depression. We live within a stone's throw of his parents (a new development) which does not help at all. I really detest the area in which we live and don't enjoy his parents, who are a large part of his life. My two boys are my light and joy and I have stayed home with them since their births. In fact, I have homeschooled them for 5 years. If it weren't for them, I think I would have left already. Who knows?
We are all so different and handle fear, disappointments, regrets and resentments differently. Have you asked you wife what she really wants out of life? Sometimes it's hard to face what we want because it sounds selfish. As women, society tends to make us feel that only bitches are selfish and look out for their own needs. Maybe in some way she is living that out? Bottom line, you do need to look out for your needs and those of your son. Children are remarkably resilient - we weren't fragile teacups and neither are our children. All they want is to be loved and have some semblance of safety. Good luck to you!
Welcome to the Cellar, Becca. :D
Hope you find some answers here. Also hope you stick around long enough to find some questions too.
Bruce, you and your damn insightful tidbits just keep my overactive mind filling with more questions than can be answered. I get an answerto one and three more are generated. I keep ending up with more questions than answers.......................and I love it!
It's all part of what Cellarites do for, and too, each other.
I'm just a little.....ok, fat little,..... cog in the wheel. :D
Funny I should finally read this. My sister waited until just after Xmas to serve divorce papers on HER husband. The same one that I had to have a "discussion" with about his habit of expressing his temper through his fists. Took damn long enough, eleven years if my memory serves.
Sheesh.
Brian
well, the hellacious ride is still going. she demanded that i give in to her desire for a divorce a few weeks back and i did. immediately the word "divorce" left her vocabulary. it was replaced by "separation". i haven't heard that much lately either.
she did start a full blown psych eval - so did i, to make it easier for her. i was a little disappointed that he said i am well adjusted and do not need to explore anything further. we did the initial interview then the 17 bazillion question survey, then the follow up interview to look at the survey results. she has been pissed ever since. i was amazed at how thorough he was with me in looking at the results of the paper test in only 15 minutes. Mrs Lookout spent 45 minutes with him doing the same and he asked for further sessions. i have no idea (because she didn't sign the consent form) what he is pursuing or what he has found... whatever it is has her spooked though. they called her yesterday to schedule her follow up session - I'd already booked mine and she promptly withdrew from the process and got a little nasty with the Doc. she got more than a little nasty with me with the central theme that "nothing is wrong with me. if there was, i'd know it! he just wants to take more of your money!" (i'm stroking checks for all this. i'd gladly continue doing so.)**
apparently the only thing in the world wrong in her life is that she doesn't have time. no time to spend with LIttle Lookout. i remind her that i've been trying to get her to cut her hours drastically or quit working for some time - she freaks out about me wanting to force her into dependency so she will forever be trapped in a miserable marriage...
yeah, a fun day.
**
as a side note - the Doc is awesome. i just realized that he is only charging me @ 1/2 of his normal rates and has been scheduling our appointments on his days off to fit them into Mrs LOokout's schedule. when she withdrew i told him i'd still be there for my session and he promptly stated he doesn't want my money and he isn't going to waste my time and money on a session i don't need BUT he wants to still meet with me JUST IN CASE we can still get her to show up for appointment. he offered not to charge unless she shows up. i'm pretty impressed. obviously for confidentiality reasons he can't disclose anything, but we had a conversation about listening to "what he says and doesn't say" and drawing the appropriate conclusions. he basically said that YES he has identified something real, significant, treatable. although it wouldn't be "fixed" over night it could be patched up so that real work can be done. sounds like he found something that meds would help with to me. but what the hell do i know? i'm just a glutton for punishment.
DRAG her ass KICKING and SCREAMING to this DR !!!!!!
FUCK HER !!!
Its about your son !!!
Interesting that she refuses to continue. Sounds like you two are getting more the "psych" part of the evaluation than the "neuro" part or at least you are, anyhow, Lookout. The psychologist never gave me so much as the teensiest hint on how I was doing on all the various tests. I knew I was in for the full barrage of them though, because what they were most concerned about in my case was finding possible neurological damage. Sounds as though Mrs. L flipped that they wanted her to do extra testing more then what they asked of you. That's the bad news. At least the doctor believes he could help if she would co-operate.
Think about this, Lookout. Do you really want to stay with and have your son raised by someone who in her heart knows that she has some difficulty that COULD be treated, but refuses that treatment? You're an adult, and if you choose to be a glutton for punishment, that's your free choice, but should the boy have to sign on for that, as well?
Just something to think about.
Some people have it in their heads that meds are only for loonies or psychos. It is curious one sister is being treated though...
Interesting that she refuses to continue.
Think about this, Lookout. Do you really want to stay with and have your son raised by someone who in her heart knows that she has some difficulty that COULD be treated, but refuses that treatment? You're an adult, and if you choose to be a glutton for punishment, that's your free choice, but should the boy have to sign on for that, as well?Just something to think about.
She may change her mind, though, hopefully. One of the first stages of going through a major deal is denial. It could pass. Lookout, I do admire you for your patience and persistence. Keep on hanging in there! You don't know if it will all work out if you don't try, and you already have so much invested in this relationship - time, a child, your heart...and of course, there's her too. We don't know how much she is really hurting, it could be much more than she is willing to show, or admit to herself, much less to anyone else. I tried very hard to hide any pain and doubt when I decided that I "knew" I wanted to divorce my husband. At times, I regret the decision I made eight years ago. Ms. Lookout could very well be trying to do something that she would regret in time. Stay strong! You're doing fantastic!! And you will never regret that you tried your hardest.
Good advice Brett's Honey's advice. Its hard to encourage someone to do something they don't want to do. All you can do is keep trying and see what you can make happen. But your doing a stand up job, and thats saying something. So good luck Mr. Lookout.
snip apparently the only thing in the world wrong in her life is that she doesn't have time. no time to spend with LIttle Lookout. i remind her that i've been trying to get her to cut her hours drastically or quit working for some time - she freaks out about me wanting to force her into dependency so she will forever be trapped in a miserable marriage...
As you no doubt know, she will find some problem that cannot be solved to blame. it si the "yes, but" game. or catch 22. the only thing that can help is X, but that would mean Y, which is untenable.
I think you may have entered the "humor her" phase of this journey.
You sound like you are doing the right things. keep strong.
yeah. don't know what to say. we had a long ago scheduled family vacation in disneyland from friday until earlier today. obviously with all that is going on and not going on that should have logically been cancelled. mrs lookout begged everyone (my family) to carry on, so we did. we were to leave mid afternoon on friday after she got off work. late afternoon we still hadn't heard from her. she came home smashed. she had left work and went to the PGA event. she was spoiling for a fight but i held my temper and calmly told her that i was disappointed she would have so little respect for me, our family, etc. i told her she could stay home or climb in the truck to head to disney - her choice. either way, the rest of us were going because i wasn't going to disappoint little lookout. she got in the truck and "went to sleep".
she woke up pretending nothing had happened and life was grande. we had a great weekend until last night when we were packing to head back to phoenix. the claws came out and the "i need a divorce" chick was there.
she has told me a few times that she hasn't hired an attorney, etc. i knew she'd met with one a couple of times (she said once). he left a voicemail on our home number while we were gone. dumbass. i checked the voicemail and gave her the message. she visibly braced herself for the fight and then almost fell on her face when my only comment was "let me know what is going on with your attorney - i don't see any reason to pay courier fees just to have me officially served". she fell all over herself with the "i haven't decided anything... nothing has been discussed... i don't have a schedule..."
whatever. i don't know what the truth is and i probably never will. i'll meet with my attorney tomorrow to tie up some loose ends. i've written off all the money that i know is in savings (about 6 months pay! damn by the book financial planners :rolleyes: ). neither of us has done anything to jeopardize custody. she makes as much as i do, so no spousal support, i won't fight for the house, but it is a community property state so i'll get half the equity. unless her lawyer is a REAL sleezebag there isn't a whole lot to argue about.
of course, i still want to repair the marriage and get her professional help for what seems like an obvious emotional/chemical/psych problem - and i will continue to pay for that if she is willing to seek help rather than file for divorce.
the worst part is the not knowing. it would be so much easier to put a bandage on the wound and tell her to draw up the divorce papers and get on with what life may bring me.
unfortunately, easier is not necessarily better. i still love her and will continue to fight for her as long as she is my wife.
damn it Lookout. you dont deserve this shit.
...neither of us has done anything to jeopardize custody. of course, i still want to repair the marriage and get her professional help for what seems like an obvious emotional/chemical/psych problem - and i will continue to pay for that if she is willing to seek help rather than file for divorce...
My concern would be little Lookout - if she is presenting emotional/chemical/psych problems, then the question of NOT jeopardizing the little one could become sticky.... How can anyone be sure in that type of situation? Is she claiming that the behaviour she exhibits is caused solely by her desires to have a new life? Does she act out in front of Little Lookout?
Often times when we are unhappy with ourselves we tend to blame everyone and everything around us for our problems.
Have you considered a possible bi-polar or depression issue? My ex was bi-polar and some of what you write seems eerily familiar...
neither of us has done anything to jeopardize custody.
She's gotten a psych eval that we can reasonably assume is abnormal. That jeapordizes custody in a big way if you call the psychiatrist to testify.
she makes as much as i do, so no spousal support,
I'm assuming you're differentiating between alimony and child support, right? Because the parent with primary custody could make a million dollars a week and the non-custodial parent would still owe child support.
Keep fighting the good fight, man.
Recently diagnosed mental illness, or even a longstanding history of mental illness does not negatively impact custody unless there have been clear child endangerment issues related to the illness.
(I know a lot of people that shouldn't be raising corn, much less kids that retain custody.)
according to the attorney if i am stroking the checks for tuition, medical, etc directly, i won't be paying her a dime and she won't pay me anything.
the psych eval is not completed because she hasn't finished her interviews - but either way there is no criminal conduct so there is no reason to drag the psychologist into court.
(I know a lot of people that shouldn't be raising corn, much less kids that retain custody.)
Retain custody from the state, or retain custody from their demonstrably sane, employed and upstanding ex?
Lookout, I have an acquaintance who is going through a nasty custody battle with his ex wife who has been diagnosed with histrionic personality disorder. The psychological evaluation of her has played a major factor in the court's decision making process, and it looks as though this man will be awarded full custody of his kids, so don't automatically discount any psych evaluations that your wife might ultimately recieve.
I gotta agree with Clodfobble - sure there's lots of folks running around who shouldn't even be allowed to raise a colony of bacteria on a petri dish and still have kids, but most of those folks do not have children with a responsible other parent who fought them for custody.
If a friend had made the following statements to you over the past couple of months, what would you advise him to do on behalf of both himself and his son?
they both go out a lot and party though. for a year or so she would meet with some of the ladies from church for a Bible study. as boring as those chicks were i have to admit, that she has never had her head screwed on tighter than she was then. she quit that earlier this year, right about the time she started hanging out with the work chicks more, started smoking again, and drinking a little more. there is some history of substance abuse so i'm really just hoping and praying that we aren't back there...
it is hard for her to even keep a normal schedule...
my expectation is that she won't be home before the bars close, cross-eyed, mean drunk. spoiling for a fight. just a guess...
she got home at 2 last night, my sister driving her. apparently, she was going above and beyond trying to get attention from any random guy last night. when she got home she was bitching that she has lost her ability to judge age. i asked why and she says that she thought everybody at the bar was her age, but they were all 22-27. i then pointed out the obvious - most 34 year olds aren't hanging out in cheesy danceclubs until 2 in the morning. she was a little pissed...
bad bad night. we were with another couple and she got smashed, although she says she barely has a buzz. not too many 122 lb girls can drink 14 beers in a 5 hour period and only be a "little buzzed"...
cruel. insulting. provocative. she brought up an incident from 6 years ago that has been long settled. except now she says that i've never told her the truth. she has known exactly what happened since shortly after the event - but apparently has recently decided i'm lying.
well, she hasn't said anything substantial or even looked at me in a day and a half now. that would be the time when i let her know that i've gotten rid of all the alcohol in the house (including my favorite bottle of scotch ) and that we will not be bringing anymore alcohol in. i am well aware that she can drink when she is not around me and this doesn't solve anything but i think was a fairly symbolic slap across the face and notice that some of this crap is over - right here and now...
then she said that she, of course, would need to keep the house so our son can have the continuity of living in the same home. it literally tore me apart to see her reaction when i asked if she really thought i was just going to be a weekend dad and leave him with her...
she mentioned that she had consulted a lawyer on monday (the day after i threw out all the alcohol)...
yeah. don't know what to say. we had a long ago scheduled family vacation in disneyland from friday until earlier today. obviously with all that is going on and not going on that should have logically been cancelled. mrs lookout begged everyone (my family) to carry on, so we did. we were to leave mid afternoon on friday after she got off work. late afternoon we still hadn't heard from her. she came home smashed. she had left work and went to the PGA event. she was spoiling for a fight but i held my temper and calmly told her that i was disappointed she would have so little respect for me, our family, etc. i told her she could stay home or climb in the truck to head to disney - her choice. either way, the rest of us were going because i wasn't going to disappoint little lookout. she got in the truck and "went to sleep"
she woke up pretending nothing had happened and life was grand...
the psych eval is not completed because she hasn't finished her interviews - but either way there is no criminal conduct so there is no reason to drag the psychologist into court...
he basically said that YES he has identified something real, significant, treatable...
Earth to Lookout: The woman has a serious drinking problem and should not have sole custody of a 4 year old boy. Fight for your son with all the ammunition at your disposal!
no one is talking about sole custody - for me or her. at this point we have tentatively agreed upon me picking him up from school on tuesday and keeping him until saturday at 3 when she gets off work. with occasionally picking him up for a few hours after school on friday afternoons. that means that majority of the time would be with me.
that also means that if she chooses to continue pretending she is 22 she can party all she wants tuesday through friday.
it isn't perfect, but know court would award sole custody to me and honestly i don't want her to be pushed out of his life. he loves his mother. unless there is a genuine concern for his safety then i won't battle over that.
Retain custody from the state, or retain custody from their demonstrably sane, employed and upstanding ex?
both
hey all you legal experts - i need some info pretty quickly... does it matter who serves who with divorce papers? does it matter what the initial decree says? or is it just a starting point for negotiations with no real lasting importance.
i have my reasons for not wanting to be the one to file, but i know that i am going to be served some time this week or early next week. the terms in the decree are not what was previously discussed. if this is important i'm going to need to get into my lawyer's office first thing monday morning to, for lack of a better term - "strike first". i really don't want to do that.
First off, I'm not a legal expert. I don't know anything about the law other than to know that the law does not necessarily follow the path you think it would. Our legal system is based on English common law meaning that case history becomes incorporated into the interpretation of statutory law. That is to say that prior court decisions are given great deference in deciding subsequent cases. This can produce justice or, in some cases, injustice. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the specifics of your situation will outweigh the effect of prior decisions rendered in cases similar to yours but which, when applied to your case, would produce a counterintuitive outcome.
I have done everything but beg you to hire a lawyer. Hire a goddamn lawyer and leave the tough questions to them. There is much at stake and you have, in my legally ignorant opinion, the upper hand. Do not piss it away by playing softball.
Trust me. If you continue to play nice, you are in for a royal asswhoopin.
[QUOTE=lookout123]hey all you legal experts - i need some info pretty quickly... does it matter who serves who with divorce papers? /QUOTE]
No legal advice here, but I do have a little "been there" advice. My husband would have anyway...many times he has said he wishes he would have filed first. Keeping the home and full custody of the girls are the main reasons he has for that..and getting at least some of his stuff!
He held back for the exact same reasons you are, he wasn't giving up,and didn't want a divorce, but in hindsight, he wished he'd filed first. He still kicks himself for not filing first, even though he got the girls, (after a terrible 1 1/2 year custody battle).
If there's any doubt at all, I'd say - go file first.
beestie - i have spoken with an attorney (about 3 weeks ago) and will meet with him on monday morning. the question is mainly about who serves who and if it matters.
Probably it does at some level, even if it's a psychological edge. A lot will depend on whether you are in a no-fault divorce state, or if you need provable grounds (adultery, alienation of affections, shit like that).
And, if you are in a provable grounds state, beware of what shit your wife will fling. Filing first might head some of that off at the pass.
You fix things up, you can always drop the suit.
it is a no fault state. the term is that the marriage is "irretrievably broken". no further detail needed.
Not your problem, but PA has a little wrinkle. Divorce procedure is determined by "local custom", every county is different. The lawyers and judges in each county get together and decide how divorces will be handled. They just make it up! No uniformity and damn little law....they just make it the fuck up. :mad:
Well, I divorced somebody in Phoenix. It hardly makes me an expert, but I have worked for a lot of lawyers and I believe that it does not matter who serves who first as far as any legal advantage in a no-fault state with community property. All it accomplishes is to establish the order in which the case is described. Instead of Mary Jones is granted a divorce from John Jones, it will read John Jones is granted a divorce from Mary Jones. Now is not the time to worry over niceties. There is no "divorce etiquette" that you should be thinking about when dealing with a person as unstable as your Mrs. Have your lawyer prepare the papers, then inform her that you will be filing them in "x" number of days so if she wants to do it she has until then or it is your show.
thanks for the input. this isn't about niceties. i won't go in to why i do not want to serve her, but it is extremely important to me. i will be speaking with my attorney again in the morning, but unless i hear that i will be bent over by letting her serve me with her ridiculous requests, then i will continue to wait.
the on again, off again psych eval is back on again. she has an appointment for friday. she grows louder each day with her protests and claims that there is absolutely nothing wrong with her. i don't understand how she can honestly believe that her attitudes and behaviors are consistant with those of the past,but...
thanks for the input. this isn't about niceties. i won't go in to why i do not want to serve her, but it is extremely important to me. i will be speaking with my attorney again in the morning, but unless i hear that i will be bent over by letting her serve me with her ridiculous requests, then i will continue to wait.
I think I understand. I have felt the same way. Divorce or otherwise you will have to live with yourself forever. For something that is extremely important to you, you should trust your instinct.
the on again, off again psych eval is back on again. she has an appointment for friday. she grows louder each day with her protests and claims that there is absolutely nothing wrong with her. i don't understand how she can honestly believe that her attitudes and behaviors are consistant with those of the past,but...
Don't make the mistake of conflating her statements about her actions and behavior with her honest belief. She may well know it's off and deny it (loudly and repeatedly). Or just as likely, she may be in honest denial and honestly believe it. Denial is a potent force in human behavior and belief.
whether she knows it or not - there is something very real wrong with her. this isn't just a "i don't love my husband anymore" situation. yes i know those happen. yes i am aware that even if she gets help for whatever this is that she won't necessarily ever love me again. i may be dumb, but i'm not stupid.
my hope and desire is to rebuild our lives and build a strong and lasting marriage. but even more than that i need her to be healthy because she may stop being my wife, but she will always be my son's mother. the sun rises and sets with her smile and a kind word. he deserves a better upbringing than she received. so if i put a lot of work and effort into helping (dragging) her into health and still lose my wife... well, my son's future is more important than my present anyway.
my son's future is more important than my present anyway.
In my humble, unknowing opinion, I think this is the most important thing to focus on.
I, and I'm sure other lurkers, continue to wish you the best and the greatest strength possible, lookout.
Lookout! Lookout, for weeks my ex-wife kept saying lets not do this, lets stay together, and so on then 1 day out of the blue I get served for support, marital asset dissolution, custody and divorce - all four at once!
It can be important to the courts who actually files, so go and do whatever is necessary and best for your boy and do it quickly if not immediately. My ex is a depressed bi-polar, really messed up person, so I kinda understand where you're coming from - Keep focused on your son. It sucks, but it will get better with time. Good luck with all of this!
met with the attorney today. he says that there is no legal advantage or disadvantage to being the plaintiff vs respondent in arizona. it only signifies whose name is first on the paperwork. although she is claiming significantly less than i do, the documentation doesn't support that. and in the end, i will fight for primary custody and i don't care if i ever get a penny of child support. she would have to significantly alter/end her career to provide the day to day care for our son that i can do. because of the relatively short duration of our marriage alimony is a non-issue.
i have my reasons to wait. as much as i hate being reactive, i have my reasons.
Just passin along info tryin to help, I'm in PA so I guess its different here. How long have you been married? Sorry if that was in an earlier post and I missed it. My wife who was too st*p*id to be able to last more than two weeks at any job finally decided to just stay home. I've been working like a dog to provide for the family and then she claims that I abandoned "them" because I'm working all the time?!?!?!?!?!?
Yesman- abandonment in a marriage in PA constitutes the following:
For all practical purposes, desertion and abandonment are one and the same. .There are two elements that have to be present in order to constitute desertion: the willful desire or the intent to desert and the cutting off of the marital relationship. In Pennsylvania, the abandonment has:
continued for 12 uninterrupted months;
must be deliberate and final;
beyond any reasonable expectation of reconciliation.
There are two types of desertion-
actual desertion and
constructive desertion.
Actual is when your spouse packs bags, books, and toothpaste, walks out the door, moves into another abode, and stays there, he or she is guilty of actual desertion. The spouse voluntarily leaves and has no plans to return except perhaps to pick up a forgotten belonging.
ConstructiveIf your spouse's behavior is so cruel that you find yourself dialing suicide prevention, you can leave and charge your spouse with constructive desertion. Constructive desertion is basically defined as one person leaving the relationship-not necessarily the home. nonperformance of other marital duties as to practically destroy the home life. The denial of sex alone does not constitute desertion. The spouse also has to stop carrying out the mutual responsibilities of the marital relationship. engagind in conduct that endangers a spouse's life, safety, health, and even self-respect (although an isolated assault or two will not necessarily constitute cruelty unless the act was particularly severe and atrocious).
More info obtained concerning PA Law @
http://www.divorcelawinfo.com
I hope this helps....unfortunately I do have some experience on this topic... if you need more info you can PM me.
FallenFairy,
what's with the link farm link - that's what divorcelaw.com is, btw.
sorry sometimes the fingers are faster than the brain - the link in post # 240 is now the correct one. FF
That link is only for;
Our products and services are designed for simple, no-fault (uncontested) divorce cases.
:neutral:
it's not the services that are pertinent on that site- it's the listings of the terms for abandonment - and what the PA Court system uses to determine whether abandonment has occured - it's way simpler language than the law books. :) (legal jargon sucks)
And really - no matter how "no-fault" a divorce could possibly be - the rule is if there are children involved then both parties should be represented by an attorney.
she filed. bitch.
what is the medical term for when it feels like your heart has been ripped out through your eyesocket then set ablaze right in front of you? fortunately, my dear wife was there to piss on my heart so it wouldn't burn too long.
Damn, Lookout. Just DAMN! I am SO sorry! Well, you gave her every chance and tried your best. Now's the time to fight like a tiger for the sake of your boy and yourself. Good luck, man. :(
I'm really sorry, Lookout. I hope the next few months go by quickly for you.
she filed. bitch.
what is the medical term for when it feels like your heart has been ripped out through your eyesocket then set ablaze right in front of you? fortunately, my dear wife was there to piss on my heart so it wouldn't burn too long.
Lookout, I'm really sorry to hear this. I was hoping it would turn out a much different way.
I'll keep good thoughts thoughts coming for you and LilLookout.
she waited to file until my annual profit sharing bonus came through. she's had the paperwork ready for awhile. gotta love sleazy lawyers, selfish bitches, and community property states. i will walk away with next to no liquid assets until the house sells or she is able to refi. wooohooo - rental living, here i come.
It's been a while since I read through here Lookout. Sorry to hear about all of this.
Most sincere best wishes man.
I wish there was someting I could say or do to ease your pain, lookout. My thoughts and prayers are with you and the little guy. You won't feel this way forever, my friend.
Sorry lookout - this is never easy but you are in my Prayers.
The five stages of death and mourning also apply to divorce.
1. Denial and Isolation
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance
You can skip a step or two (there was no bargaining in mine) but accept the basic idea that you will be continuing to go through the emotional ringer.
After that things will start to get radically better!
The best advice anyone gave me was, if some thoughts seem to be overwhelming, just ignore them for the time being. You can delay worrying about stuff - not forever, but you don't have to consume yourself with how you're going to cope with X today. Leave that to next month and just drop the worry entirely.
I sort of wish I had been forced to move out. Instead, she volunteered to move out as part of the split of things, I'm left with all the house and furniture and color schemes and wallpaper etc. that I only half picked out or in some cases didn't pick out at all. Stuck in a life I only half made and am partly disgusted by, is a strange feeling and bits of it remain even years later. I hate my dishes for example. As a pretty fierce individualist I would prefer to have my own choices around.
You can say oh damn back to apartment life, or you can say, thank god I don't have to try to maintain the lifestyle that we built together, because it turns out that was sort of bogus; and I am suddenly granted the wonderful luck of not having that sort of reminder everywhere I look and the favor of building a life that is fresh and new and all my own.
thanks, all. starting over fresh has its pro's i know. as i type i have tears in my eyes because the family room couch is right in front of me. we picked that out when we first got to arizona. we spent countless nights laughing and talkign about the future on it. it was the piece of furniture my son leaned against the first time he stood up.
am i overly sentimental? yep. i want it for all those reasons. i don't want it for all those reasons. this house we are in we designed together, decorated together, etc.
Sorry Lookout, but I've been out for just over a month and a 1/2 and it is getting a little better each day. Two steps forward and 1 back - its just the way it goes. I've cried myself to sleep many a night and others I'd just stay up till I passed out. I'm not sure if this helps, but the bad days are getting fewer and farther apart. I miss my kids so much. But the pain will ease and you will live and, believe it or not, love again. One friend said a divoce is like a forest fire. In the beginning it is all crazy and out of control, then there is nothing but destruction. Then finally, new life beins to grow from the ashes. . . . . Good luck, my friend.
I'm so sorry to hear this, lookout. My best wishes for you and your boy.
hey all you legal experts - i need some info pretty quickly... does it matter who serves who with divorce papers? does it matter what the initial decree says? or is it just a starting point for negotiations with no real lasting importance.
i have my reasons for not wanting to be the one to file, but i know that i am going to be served some time this week or early next week. the terms in the decree are not what was previously discussed. if this is important i'm going to need to get into my lawyer's office first thing monday morning to, for lack of a better term - "strike first". i really don't want to do that.
Sorry I'm late with this... and I see that she has filed, but it really doesn't matter in a civil trial who files first... you can always counter-claim to get yourself on the top, so then it looks like X v. Y v. X... yadda yadda yadda.
Order only matters in a criminal trial. You want to be the one who files first - because you're not the crook ;).
Hey lookout,
I'm sure it's not the money but the extra drop in your esteem of her that hurts the most. Remember that this isn't the woman you fell in love with and married. She is sick and her actions and motivations are colored by her illness and her lawyer's greed and are not indicative of her true nature.
Don't let the pain get the upper hand. Adults get mired in the past, kids are living now. Take a cue from your son.
And like Beestie said, you've got the whole cellar behind you.
Damn, that really sucks. Well, the gloves are off. And its very unfair to you who would like to do this as amicably and as considerately to li'l lookOut as possible. Protect your son and yourself as you would against anyone who would bring stress and disruption into your lives. I don't see why she should get a "free pass" to wreak havoc at your expense.
I know you don't feel this way and I understand but if it were me, I'd take her ass to the mat.
But, in spite of the bumpy ride ahead - it won't be as bad as it seems right now. Check in and post updates. I've helped a lot of friends through similar situations and this one is shaping up the same way. I'll fast forward to the end: you and lookOut Jr. will bond together and both of you will come out of this better, stronger and happier.
And if you ever find yourself in a spot and you just don't know what to do, do what I do - ask what John Belushi would have done and do that. ;)
The advice here is the best, and typically getting stuff off your chest is the best way to keep it from suffocating you so please post whenever you need to vent. No one here sees it as whining or weakness to take care of yourself. Instead of wasting energy trying to figure what is going on in her head, spend it making sure your boy is taken care of. You have the Cellar (and RL friends), but all he's got is you :). There is no such thing as too many hugs. I hope the storm is short and the resulting damage as minor as possible. Good Luck.
I'll add my good wishes to everyone's here. I'll also repeat what I think I've said here before: this is between you and her, keep LittleLookOut right out of it, even if she keeps trying to drag him into it. That may not be easy, but it's the best course in the long run.
One of the benefits of posting is having to get things, that are playing tag in your head, in a logical order so you can write them down. It can be a big help when you feel confused and overwhelmed. :juggle:
Hang in there, Lookout. This is post number 265 in your support! ;)
Best of luck to you lookout.
The worst of it is over, man. Now you have a future to tend to, best get started. lookout jr. deserves the best, and you do too.
Lookout, please don't take what I am about to say/type as flippant or disrespectful, because it isn't. Okay, it is going to be a bit crude and boorish, but I want to make sure I'm getting the fundamental message across to you. I know exactly what you are feeling right now - however, I now have 14 years of perspective behind me, and so I'll just tell you what I found out when I went through what you are experiencing.
Right now, you feel rejected, belittled, hurt and uncertain of yourself. You feel like you weren't good enough to keep the love of your wife and mother of your child. Right now, I'll bet you are questioning everything you ever did or said with her, wondering how you could have been so wrong, and wondering why you couldn't see it sooner and make up for it.
Screw that. You *are* a good and fine person. You *will* look back on these days and wonder why it hurt so damn much...and there is nothing that will help you start on the road to that end any better than the first piece of ass you nail as a single, divorced father.
The sooner you get out there, strut the package, pull out the old stuff, unencumbered by the deteriorating years of marriage, the better. When a bitch has ripped out your guts and handed them back to you, minus 40% for legal fees, the only answer is to find a piece of strange and let her remind you of the man you really are.
For some stupid reason, approval is like a magickal healing drug, and nothing says approval like a woman who wants you to give her the Lookout Layout. So line up a babysitter and start making phone calls. Start planning your recovery. In particular, look up that little hottie you've run into at parties a couple of times...you know - that one who made it so obvious that she wanted to do nasty things to you, but you couldn't, becuase you've always been married. The one who would have done you right there in the coat closet if you'd given her half a chance? There is no time like the present, and I guarantee you that, for a few hours at least, it won't hurt.
You do this a few times, and your attitude will turn from "No one wants me" to "stupid bitch, look what she ain't gonna get no more." Meanwhile, thanks to the miracle of Enhanced Self Esteem, you will be a better father, a more rational divorce correspondent and a guy with a big smile on his face that everyone wonders about.
There was never a more satisfying moment in my relationship with my ex than the night she stood banging on my locked bedroom door while I was inside banging on a lovely lady friend. I don't think she saw that one coming...
Be well, brother.
Well! How am I s'posed to follow that voice of experience?
Just to chime in that I wish you the best outcome for all this crap and I know that you are the right man to raise a strong, smart, kind little looker. Ride the waves.
thanks all. i know there is truth in all the words entered for my support. i just left the land of amicable divorce and entered the battlegrounds though. no fresh piece for me for awhile as i watch my p's and q's. she went and hired a well known POS bulldog for an attorney.
i was served my divorce papers today. her attorney's first salvo? he filed on valentine's day. fortunately i'm not into hallmark holidays so that doesn't really matter to me, but a nice first showing of his class.
they are demanding joint custody. yeah right. i would get him two nights each week (that she just happens to have to work late on) and every other weekend. for that honor i get to pay all medical, tuition, etc, + child support. they've inflated my income by 10% and decreased hers by 40%. *pfft* i've got her business books from all year. guess it wasn't such a bad idea to copy every document in my office a month or so ago.
her lawyer actually turned red when i took my pen in my hand as if to sign this ridiculous crap, but then i stopped and said "as soon as you climb up on this desk, drop your drawers, and suck your own cock - i'll sign." i put the pen down and sat back. after a 5 count i stood up and let him know that he would hear the response through my attorney. they tried explaining that i would spend the pittance they were prepared to give me in legal fees if i chose to fight. my response? "i'll see your pittance and raise you - every penny i have now and will make for the next year. i'll make more." then i turned and invited my wife to dinner, gave her a kiss on the lips, and walked out.
*let's get ready to ruuuuuuuuuuuumble*
Good show, man. I know you've got the balls to pull this off, now that you've been forced to go this route. You may have misgivings when you're alone, but you'll step up to the plate when it counts. :shotgun:
even now, i'd be the most loving and loyal husband imagineable if she'd agree to get help. but i will not be bent over when it comes to my son. they actually threatened my retirement accounts, investments etc. give me a break - i don't care about money. it is only a tool. i'll spend it all for a halfway worthy cause - and my son is the absolute most important. game on baby.
Lookout, having crossed horns with you often on this board, I know you to be a very worthy and very tough opponent. Your soon to be ex has probably been lulled into a false sense of complacency by your kindness and love for her. You are the last person I would want to come up against in a court of law. For the sake of lil' Lookout, give her hell!
NOW, we're talkin. Oh, yeah.
And to quote one of my favorite lines from The Blues Brothers:
The use of unauthorized force has been authorized
*let's get ready to ruuuuuuuuuuuumble*
i don't care about money. it is only a tool. i'll spend it all for a halfway worthy cause - and my son is the absolute most important. game on baby.
Rock on Brother !!!!!
Lookout, you need a meaner attorney. I mean this in the nicest possible way.
You might want to ask around to find out about the most skilled and meanest female divorce attorney in your area.
Hell hath no fury, and all that.
As much as I like (and agree with) Elspode's advice, Lookout, in your post after his, you're right about "having to mind your P's & q's" right now. When my now-husband went through his divorce several years ago - to make a long story short - during an investigation, he was asked by detectives about his really being celibate for all that time and he replied "There are more important things in life than pussy, and there are two kinds of liars - men who say they never did, and men who say they've quit." He said the detectives immediately looked away and shut up. Like a lot of men, they don't want to talk about jacking off....
I'm not sure if she knows what she's up against...Lookout, I can tell you're ready to ruuuuumble for little lookout, and also for yourself...you do not deserve to pay financially also for her decision to divorce, especially if your pay is equal! I hope your state is similar to ours, not automatically giving custody to the mother, but weighing in all of the factors Good luck and go get 'em!!
I'm with wolf. He may be scum but a bright ballbreaker and you'll be laughing.
i had an appraisal done on the home. she wants to keep it and give me a fraction of what the equity was when we bought it, not even beginning to approach the $$ of equity that was there at the last appraisal done in the fall.
a middle number appraisal done on saturday shows the equity to have increased by no less than $55K since September. my guess is that will cause a fight, because there is no way in hell she can afford a mortgage large enough to give me my share and keep the house. i hate to sell the house - but i don't even want that big of a mortgage.
Lookout,
You need to take her ass to the mat, so to speak. Get a deal so good for yourself it will make headlines. Get teh courts to award her as clsoe to nothing as possible.
Since you are an ok guy, you can always give her more than she is awarded. No one will put your picture on a milk carton for being too good to your ex. On the other hand...
I just read this thread and I have a little bit of advice...take it, don't take it...whatever you think...but consider some of these points:
It is extremely familiar, in that I could see myself in some of the behaviors your wife exhibitied earlier in the thread and now, I see my husband's exes behaviors in the later parts of the thread...you know, the parts where she is a conniving lunatic? Well, all I can say is make sure your lawyer is sharp. It wouldn't hurt if you got some information from a few of the father's rights organizations. I don't know about Arizona, but here in Colorado, they say joint parenting, but what they really mean is the woman gets what she wants and the man dishes out the $$$. Barring some kind of vulgar crime in her past, it seems there is nothing that can bring down these kinds of bitches, though a kid's father may be obviously more fit a parent. Sick and sad. I saw it all from the sidelines and couldn't contain my anger at how skewed the system is in this way. And her lawyer was a true flunkie.
Savor every moment with your child right now. Don't move out of the house. If you have to, get her to move out first. Don't do anything that could possibly ever be construed as not being able to spend time with your son. Save every conversation you have had and have with your wife (ex, I mean). Write down every time you spend even a few moments with your son. If he ever indicates to you something negative she has said, write it down. Never say anything negative about your wife in front of or within earshot of your son (I know, common sense and you wouldn't do that anyway.) If you have been ordered support on a temporary basis, pay it on time...or early. These are just a few suggestions I have based on the experiences my husband and I had when he was fighting this. By all means...NEVER allow anything about relocating out of state to be included in the decree. A common sleaze tactic some women use is to get a restraining order, so then that gets you away from your son. They are so easy for women to get with minimal or no real proof, especially in a divorce situation, so, beware. I know you haven't probably done anything threatening at all but that doesn't matter to the courts...they always figure "better safe than sorry" with those kinds of things, so you would be left trying to prove your innocence.
Okay, so all that out the way, I am truly sorry this is happening to you. I know a lot of us have experienced similar struggles so we can tell you that things will be so much better in time. It has been about 2 years for my husband and things are quite "normal" these days. It takes a while, yes, but I think in the end you might be glad it happened...it will teach you a few things about yourself.
Oh yeah, and hope beyond all hope that your judge doesn't turn out to be a former criminal defense lawyer and single mother.
............ but what they really mean is the woman gets what she wants and the man dishes out the $$$.
Not just CO, nationwide.
You guys want to talk about suppression of civil rights? Talk to half the men in this country that have gone through divorce.
There's your victims.
Financial wage garnishments, siezures of property, legal processes, procedures, and suspiciously near illegal entanglements.
There is ONE office in my home town that has bullet proof glass, ONE. Out of all the possibles, there is only ONE.
Not the banks, municipal buildings....not the schools and not the gas stations.
It's the place where they fuck men out of their money and give it to their ex-wives to spend that on their kids. THAT's the ONLY place that this type of security is needed.
There are thousands of handgun permit holders back home. There is RARELY a problem with them.
People go into banks, businesses and throughout the society and attend to their lives with no troubles.
There in only ONE place that there is no justice or accountability to the male citizen. CPS.
When I rule the planet, the organ donor shortage will be no longer....and neither will this Nazi-ish agency.
Statistic:
only 35% of men kiss their wives goodbye when they leave their house, whereas 90% of men kiss their houses goodbye when they leave their wife.
In lookout's case it should be the other way around.
Case is dead on when it comes to the RO thing - at least in Colorado. And women can get hit by them too when finances are involved. I don't have the money to hire a lawyer and I got slapped with an RO merely for asking the ax murderer how often he needs to get his diapers changed in front of his adult daughter and new GF who has tons of money to hire a shark to oppose me in court. Watch your step! And document EVERYTHING to the max!
Fathers do have to fight much harder and are damned lucky if they even end up on equal ground with the mother.
My ex got behind on child support for a year, we didn't keep track of it very closely. When our son was 18, the ex had been clean & sober for a while and paying it, along with giving me cash, a car, a washing machine, etc. The the state upped the interest on back support and his balance started climbing about $100 a month in just interest. When I went to DHS to write off the balance and give him credit for everything not on their records, they discovered they had our son's birthdate right everywhere except on the child support order, and the ex was over charged 10 months of support because of the one place they had his birthdate at 10-8-87 instead of 1-8-87, making him 18 ten months later than he was.
How many other men have been overcharged, and with outrageous interest amounts? If I hadn't made arrangements to write his off, that mistake would've not been caught.
And Lookout - I know you're going through a hellish and personal thing here, but it's been a while since we've heard from you. I know others are wondering how you're doing too......drop us a hello when you can...we know you're hanging in there.....
Since I don't have kids, this question is purely academic to me -- is it even possible to work out your own child support arrangements with your ex, instead of having the state dictate it?
And yes, Lookout, do drop us a line if you have a chance. We're all pullin' for you!
Keep taking the high road, lookout. It will pay off for your soul, and if you have a decent lawyer, it will help when the judge decides how much money comes out of your coffers.
.... is it even possible to work out your own child support arrangements with your ex, instead of having the state dictate it?
I believe it is possible ( in Pa anyway ) and reasonable that this would happen but is rare because of all the nastiness of the divorce process.
From what I know this is the big stick. The state not only has the power to rough the man up, those offices that administer the "service" for the woman and child are
most often staffed by bitter women that have gone through very tough circumstances in divorce and are somehow getting justice for themselves and women at large. These positions pay nearly nothing and in the case of back home, you might find bullets flying at you in a very literal way.
Regardless, these are power positions for women that have it out for men in some way and see their role as an equalizer.
There is little respect for men caught in this trap (back home anyway ) and they are always presumed to be the evil scum of the earth lying bastards that deserve the fires of hell regardless of the true situation.
For those men with enough means and money to have legal representation BEFORE the net scoops them up, the experience is slightly less humiliating with the blatant attitude that he is the worst sorts of humans on this planet, but the legal manuvers, garnishments and siezures are very difficult to challenge even with a good lawyer.
It's been a while since I have seen a man have the extreme misfortune of having to go through this and I have not myself gone through this. The situation may be completely different now but I seriously doubt it.
Since I don't have kids, this question is purely academic to me -- is it even possible to work out your own child support arrangements with your ex, instead of having the state dictate it?
Absolutely--the state would rather not deal with you at all, in general. Many states have clauses that say if you want to go back and change something down the line, you must pay to go to mediation first. Their top priority is getting through the overloaded docket as fast as possible. My parents had a completely screwed up, intensely complicated custody arrangement that no judge on earth would have wanted to be involved with, but because they both went before him and said, "We've agreed to do X, Y, and Z and our lawyers have drawn up the paperwork here," he said, "Wonderful, I so order it--next case."
In response to Slang's post about the women staffing those offices, hell, even us women can't hardly get along with them, when we do eventually get through to them (almost impossible by phone), and I can get along with just about anyone! I can't even imagine what the men must go through with them. At least that's the experience we have here with the local child support office. Never thought about what Slang said, but it does ring very true..... Bitter...bitter women!!
And what triggered the state's involvement in my child support was when I applied for assistance with medical bills when my son broke his femur and spent 3 weeks in the hospital, etc. Even with insurance the bills I was left with were high, the hospital encourages you to "fill out these forms to get some of these bills paid", then the state looks to the non-custodial parent for the money....and it goes on...
Never thought about what Slang said, but it does ring very true..... Bitter...bitter women!!
The salaries of these positions are so low that the only reason that many of these women take these jobs is to financially torture and abuse men, regardless of the circumstances of their case.
You could
easily make more at McDonalds than working for CPS. That is....unless you have a grudge.
.....when my son broke his femur and spent 3 weeks in the hospital, etc.
Was there in inquiry or investigation for possible neglect or abuse on this accident?
This is another of their responsibilities, checking that sort of thing out. Kids dont break bones and get hurt on their own, you know. It's
got to be that the parent is abusive or negligent.
These people would be so Fing
GONE if I was running the show. It's "for the sake of the children" though and you know what that means.
[SIZE=1]That means that everyone loses some of their civil rights cloaked behind the seemingly unapposable goal of protecting the children[/SIZE]
"Wonderful, I so order it--next case."
I dont doubt your eperience or that this happens CF. Do you have any idea how often this happens?
.....I don't have the money to hire a lawyer.......
Many of the things that you post here are not what I like to read. That's fine, but I'm seriously wondering Mari....
Have you ever had good luck or fun.....some positive outcome?
If your life is truly as tough and hopeless as you sometimes describe, fine..I'll shut the fuck up and go chase some goats. Is the life of Mari one big long tragedy of one kind or another?
Please tell me...has there been
one time that you've made out in this life? Please?
Was there in inquiry or investigation for possible neglect or abuse on this accident?
No - 3 wheeler accident. Just a bad break with a lot of bills. (Breaking a femur at 11, when you're still growing can result in one leg outgrowing the other if it's not healed properly.)
I dont doubt your eperience or that this happens CF. Do you have any idea how often this happens?
Oh, pretty darn rarely, I would guess. Like you said, most people getting divorced can't agree on
anything. Even if they start the process with the best intentions, a lot of people can be convinced by friends and lawyers that they're being taken advantage of or need to get nasty to get "what they deserve". Anecdotally, I think perth and case had a mutually-agreed on situation set up for their son, with very little court involvement. It's really the best way to go about it, but not a lot of people can pull it off. Most women aren't capable of freely letting their ex care for the children for any amount of time, even when they openly admit he's a perfectly good parent.
As the resident physiopsycho-sexual therapy recommender in this thread, I just want to say that, with a good lawyer on your side, you'll need to worry *far* less about who you see for a bit of mutually agreeable adult shagging that your ex will need to worry about the whole substance abuse issue. And, if things get nasty, that sort of stuff will come up, but I still say that level headed adult behavior beats being a hopped up single mom any day.
By all means, be discreet, be adult, be mature...but I don't believe you have to be celibate. It isn't like you're going to be putting on a Copenhagen sex show in the tot's playroom, after all. Your mental health (and a healthy sex life, especially in times of stress like this, is a critical component of mental health) is going to be sorely tested during the divorce and subsequent years. (Don't think for a moment that once the divorce is done that your agony with her stops...you have a child together, and whatever *you* think is best for that child is likely to be diametrically opposed to what she thinks, even if she might have thought you right before the divorce).
You're going to need to take care of your self-esteem and your positive self-image in order to be the man you're going to need to be.
Rock on, my brother.
Ah....nice work there Elspode. Been a little busy lately, thanks for bringing us back. :D
There's no way a thread like this can be hijacked, unless it somehow ends up being about automotive finishes.
Oh, pretty darn rarely, I would guess. Like you said, most people getting divorced can't agree on anything. Even if they start the process with the best intentions, a lot of people can be convinced by friends and lawyers that they're being taken advantage of or need to get nasty to get "what they deserve". Anecdotally, I think perth and case had a mutually-agreed on situation set up for their son, with very little court involvement. It's really the best way to go about it, but not a lot of people can pull it off. Most women aren't capable of freely letting their ex care for the children for any amount of time, even when they openly admit he's a perfectly good parent.
My ex was perfectly fine with me raising our kid (who was 11 and in physical rehab from his brain injury when she left me). She knew he was going to be a lot of work, and she was pretty focused on herself, her boyfriend and getting as far away from our life together as possible. I mean, she came around a couple of times a week and demanded that I do thus and such for him, yadda yadda, but I'd just smile and nod, then go ahead and do what I knew was the right thing to do anyway. Every time it came down to push or be shoved, she'd back off, because she really couldn't be bothered in the end to *do* anything. Once I finally figured out that she wasn't actually going to go through the efforts to force me to do anything any other way than the way which I thought was right, life got a lot easier.
I'm sure I had a luxury that most people don't in such cases, though, and I don't envy anyone who has to do that battle.
How come my Saturn didn't come with a little bottle of touch-up paint for small scratches? It might not end up with the same finish as the rest, but I don't mind that. My Chevy came with some.
Many of the things that you post here are not what I like to read. That's fine, but I'm seriously wondering Mari....
Have you ever had good luck or fun.....some positive outcome?
If your life is truly as tough and hopeless as you sometimes describe, fine..I'll shut the fuck up and go chase some goats. Is the life of Mari one big long tragedy of one kind or another?
Please tell me...has there been one time that you've made out in this life? Please?
Well, EXCUSE me, Slang. Getting back on one's feet after a disabling illness is not a picnic, and I'm still pretty poor. If you don't like to read my comment made in passing that I can't afford lawyer's fees, I suggest you put me on ignore and go check "Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm" out of the library.
Yes, the story of my life reads like a Dickens novel. I was born in a poor house, traveled to industrial Colorado Springs where I was taken in by some born-again members of Focus on the Family where I lived in a garret that was freezing in the winter, boiling hot in the summer. Lucky for me, I didn't have to spend much time in the garret since the born-agains found me an 18 hour a day job at 5 cents/hr in the tatting factory where I made intricate embroidered doilies with such teensy little stiches that I lost most of my eyesight by age 22.
The young scion of the family, an insufferable, self righteous bigot, forced his unwanted advances upon me, and as a result, I grew heavy with child and the born-agains threw me out on the streets, calling me a "fallen woman." I gave birth to a child that was still born at the Red Cross Shelter, and after that I passed my time living on the streets and panhandeling coins for gin to numb the pain of my dreary existance.
I fell in with a bad crowd of pick pockets and thieves and was thrown into the criminal justice center's prison ward for ladies of ill repute where I slept on a hard concrete floor and my best friend was a chemist who taught me all she knew about making meth. I was dumped back out on the streets and put my new found knowledge to good use, becoming one of THE top suppliers for the local hell's angels gangs.
Happy, now?
How's THAT for a thread derail? ;)
.......Happy, now?.....
Since I've totally hijacked this thread, why not go all the way.
Imagine for just one second that I actually care in that forum sort of way because in that way, I do.
We're polar opposites on most issues and that's fine. I'm not harassing you but asking a serious question that I would think other people might ask themselves about you as well.
I've not ever met someone with as much bad luck as you and I'm sincerely sorry for your string of bad luck....
You told me about the bad....but what I'm asking is if you have ever made out on the winning side of
anything?
Have you ever been happy, even if for just one moment?
Get defensive if you like, I'm just asking. Sure I could ignore you, that's easy. I'm just trying to understand you and some of the things that you describe.
There was a time a year or more ago that you were applying for a job. Whether that ever came through or not I dont know...but in a way I was hoping that you did get that job. If nothing more so that
something would actually start going your way.
For God's sake I hope they do. You sound like you're in need of some good luck.
There are people out there that are rooting for you, I'm sure.
They're just afraid to out loud because you might accidently kill them not knowing their well wishes :lol:
Frankly, after what happened to me last time I tried to talk about what's really going on in my life in this forum, I feel that I'd be a fool to put myself on the line to be cut to bits again by a bunch of strangers whom I don't even know and who don't know me.
Your question seems ingenuous to me. Of course, I've had many happy times in my life and great experiences that I remember fondly.
My health is much improved, but I seem to have reached a plateau that the neurologists say I may not be able to overcome. My spatial memory is just wrecked which means, among other things, that I can't remember new faces or places. This limits my activities severely. I've gotten some small writing gigs and computer work that I can do at home which helps out financially.
I have put in for a job as a campground host out on Colorado's Western slope. It would be a great gig if I could get it, and its something I could do because the Forest Service would give me lots of back up. I may also qualify for housing out there which would be an enormous help to me because then I could just concentrate on my writing and rehab efforts. I'm on what's called the "Ticket to Work" program which allows me to be employed and see how well I do at it.
I'm still far from rich, however, and the spatial thing does make my life very complex, to say the least.
NOW, are you happy?
.....NOW, are you happy?....
Yes, thank you.
I've never been in that situation and I'm sure that it's not fun. Getting even close to that place was not fun at all for me.
Open yourself to the possibility that people wish you well and hope for your success, even in a small way.
I'm very glad that you are improving and hope that someday you get to the point that you see yourself in the past and dont recognize that person for all the anger and frustration that person WAS.
That surely rings true for me.
Now for the joke. Are you with me? This is a JOKE.
So Mari....why not apply for one of the CPS positions there? Seems like you'd fit right in. :)
So Mari....why not apply for one of the CPS positions there? Seems like you'd fit right in. :)
Heh! I don't think I hate men enough to qualify. Other than the ax murderer, I've mostly had pretty decent guys in my life, starting with my Dad whom I loved dearly and still miss to this very day, ten years after his passing. I was married to a terrific guy for 20 years, 18 years of which were quite happy. Then I pulled A Mrs. Lookout stunt for various reasons, a couple of which were valid and the rest stupid. I suspect Mrs.L. may one day come to regret her decision, just as I did. Now, that we have this thread back on track, I hope we hear from Lookout again soon. ;)
update. life is still kicking me in the teeth.
that is all.
ok. we've tried a couple of times to sit down and discuss custody and propert/money, etc. it is going nowhere and getting a little on the nasty side. she is truly delusional. it took me a couple of conversations before the lightbulb went off for me. she truly believes that i have contributed next to nothing in terms of assets in our time together (woohoo 7 year anniversary tomorrow!:rar: ). She is "generously giving" me $xx,xxx as an offer for splitting up assets. years ago i would have creamed myself at the thought of having a check with more than 3 zero's on it made out to me. today i look at that and realize that what she is offering me out of the kindness of her heart is only 10% of our networth.
her starting point for division is that "it will take lookout X to get set up with his new life. I am giving him more than X so he should be grateful.
my starting point is: when we got together we had nothing. we built everything together. a team/a partnership. if you are breaking up the team then morally we should add up what we have and essentially divide it in half (not to mention that we are in a community property state)
i can't get her to understand that concept at all.
question: if i have been so effing worthless all these years why does your lawyer demand HUGE child support and other ridiculous demands to keep you afloat?
ah, so yeah. that is why i'm not posting much. i'm kind of a bitter bobby this week.
Hang in there, lookout. We knew this wouldn't be easy but we remain steadfast and unwavering in our support.
Ungrateful dingbat. Not that I know her well enough to say that - you just need to start feeling comfortable hearing it.
yeah. the custody will be battled out. the money will be worked out. that is simple math for the courts.
probably harder is the fact that i am watching someone that i love disappear. the person that i have been with all this time is slipping away more each day. her interactions with everyone around her are becoming... i can't even explain it.
mrs lookout always had class. even if she was being stupid and goofy and _____ it didn't matter. a certain obvious class was apparent. she is literally (d)evolving into the most ridiculously stereotypical trashy bar ho. sad. it is actually worse than having someone i love die.
it is actually worse than having someone i love die.
I can only agree out of sympathy and and can't even begin to appreciate how gut-wrenching this must be for you. Like UT said - focus on what's immediately in front of you and don't try to process the whole thing at once.
If you stay focused on winning each battle, you will win the war but if you focus on winning the war...
probably harder is the fact that i am watching someone that i love disappear. the person that i have been with all this time is slipping away more each day. her interactions with everyone around her are becoming... i can't even explain it.
mrs lookout always had class. even if she was being stupid and goofy and _____ it didn't matter. a certain obvious class was apparent. she is literally (d)evolving into the most ridiculously stereotypical trashy bar ho. sad. it is actually worse than having someone i love die.
That's what happened to me with M., my S.O. for 6 years. He went from being the only one I trusted to being the "ax murderer" in what seemed like overnight. I couldn't believe the things he started to say to me, or his attitude about the money - MY money. He figured he could just help himself and skate off, shouting back over his shoulder stuff like "Go ahead and kill yourself - it wouldn't bother me a bit. I've been through THAT before!" and "Have fun camping."
It was so surreal watching him morph practically overnight into this callous, greedy stranger. I understand your pain, Lookout. I used to play this Brooks and Dunn song alot:
That ain't no way to go
Girl, it just ain't right!
Was it all a lie?
After all this time
That ain't no way to go...I used to play this Brooks and Dunn song alot:
i'll pass on the B and D. but i sure am liking Mr Cash's CRY CRY CRY.
How about "Don't stop thinkin' about tomorrow"......
....or Bob Seger's "Looking Back".:)
ooh ooh. how about Bloodlet's WHITNEY. it is a song about the guys ex.... and a plan to keep her tied up underneath the tour bus for the next tour. uh, that may be a little dark.
Since I don't have kids, this question is purely academic to me -- is it even possible to work out your own child support arrangements with your ex, instead of having the state dictate it?
Yes. Perth and I decided on our own support arrangements (none), as well as the parenting agreement (50% each). Judge didn't blink.
As the resident physiopsycho-sexual therapy recommender in this thread, I just want to say that, with a good lawyer on your side, you'll need to worry *far* less about who you see for a bit of mutually agreeable adult shagging that your ex will need to worry about the whole substance abuse issue. And, if things get nasty, that sort of stuff will come up, but I still say that level headed adult behavior beats being a hopped up single mom any day.
By all means, be discreet, be adult, be mature...but I don't believe you have to be celibate. It isn't like you're going to be putting on a Copenhagen sex show in the tot's playroom, after all. Your mental health (and a healthy sex life, especially in times of stress like this, is a critical component of mental health) is going to be sorely tested during the divorce and subsequent years. (Don't think for a moment that once the divorce is done that your agony with her stops...you have a child together, and whatever *you* think is best for that child is likely to be diametrically opposed to what she thinks, even if she might have thought you right before the divorce).
You're going to need to take care of your self-esteem and your positive self-image in order to be the man you're going to need to be.
Rock on, my brother.
Thank you, Elspode. I wish I had had the eloquence to tell my husband this 2 years ago when he was going through this situation. Your posts continue to provide necessary inspiration.
Oh, pretty darn rarely, I would guess. Like you said, most people getting divorced can't agree on anything. Even if they start the process with the best intentions, a lot of people can be convinced by friends and lawyers that they're being taken advantage of or need to get nasty to get "what they deserve". Anecdotally, I think perth and case had a mutually-agreed on situation set up for their son, with very little court involvement. It's really the best way to go about it, but not a lot of people can pull it off. Most women aren't capable of freely letting their ex care for the children for any amount of time, even when they openly admit he's a perfectly good parent.
Mutual agreement in divorce is a rarety. Perth and I were lucky we were able to put our anger and differences aside long enough to make the agreements we did. I remember being a minority in a state ordered "parenting through divorce" class where women were asking "how do I keep my ex from seeing my kid?" and "how do I get a restraining order so I can get custody" and men asking "How do I keep her from letting her boyfriend around my kid?" I feel sorry for the kids caught in these situations, as well as the parents. The kids really are the only ones who truly suffer lasting consequences, though. I would suppose a lot of the adults out there crying "why did my daddy leave me?" were once children caught in these situations. Sure, there are a good number of dads that don't want any involvement in their kids' lives, but from all of the divorced dads I have known, that is also a rarety. The system is just so screwed up, that alot of them don't even bother, knowing they will be throwing good child support money to try and get a couple more nights a year with their kid.
I swear, I would love to get more involved in father's rights issues if I could only get through and into law school.
One more thing before I stop spamming this thread:
Hang in there, Lookout. You have a lot of friends (even if virtual) on your side. Keep us updated on the situation and we may even be able to give you some tips..which you can take or not...it just helps to have some support in these things. Thanks for being so open and sharing your experiences. And like Elspode more eloquently stated: Be good to yourself. No matter what, remember you are a great father and a wonderful person. Don't let the legal system or your ex make you feel any differently.
Hey lookout, have you gotten in a divorce support group yet? I hate support groups too. But the divorce ones are pretty effective at helping you sort through the train wreck of emotions you're feeling right now.
not yet. right now i am giving her rope to hang herself with.
Mrs Lookout: "i was thinking of going out with the girls tonight"
me: "sure honey, i wasn't planning on going anywhere tonight - go out with the girls if you want. have a good night." *feverishly documenting the 8 hours she chose to be in the bar with the girls rather than home with her son. also documenting the hours she couldn't play with him the next day while nursing hangover*
i am choosing to spend every possible moment at home with my son. mostly because i just want to be with him. partly because i don't want any situation where they can say "lookout - could you have spent ___ hours with your son, but you chose to go ____?"
Go for it, Lookout! Document, document, document! You do NOT want lil Lookout shoved off on some sullen teenager while the former Mrs. L goes out partying while you are not around. You also do not want him to wander around the kitchen unattended the next morning and decide to bake a cake which contains flour, sugar, 12 eggs with shells and gasoline - a recipe I concocted at age 4 when my own Dad was away and the Momster was sleeping in late. I damn near blew up the entire neighborhood (guess I started young, eh?).
As your interactions with the 7 year bitch become more distasteful, the better the idea of being away from her will look.
I hope.:ipray:
Great job, Lookout! Your son, your peace of mind, and your case will all benefit from that dedication. And you have the added benefit of getting rid of her when she goes out with the girls. Works out pretty well, if you think about it.
Last night in beer class (only 59 more to go), they made us watch "When a Man Loves a Woman". Meg Ryan and Andy Garcia. Good movie -- your soon to be ex-wife is displaying a lot of the alcoholic tendencies that Ryan did with her character.
Worth a screening sometime, perhaps.
Since I've totally hijacked this thread, why not go all the way.
Imagine for just one second that I actually care in that forum sort of way because in that way, I do.
We're polar opposites on most issues and that's fine. I'm not harassing you but asking a serious question that I would think other people might ask themselves about you as well.
I've not ever met someone with as much bad luck as you and I'm sincerely sorry for your string of bad luck....
You told me about the bad....but what I'm asking is if you have ever made out on the winning side of anything?
Have you ever been happy, even if for just one moment?
Get defensive if you like, I'm just asking. Sure I could ignore you, that's easy. I'm just trying to understand you and some of the things that you describe.
There was a time a year or more ago that you were applying for a job. Whether that ever came through or not I dont know...but in a way I was hoping that you did get that job. If nothing more so that something would actually start going your way.
For God's sake I hope they do. You sound like you're in need of some good luck.
There are people out there that are rooting for you, I'm sure.
They're just afraid to out loud because you might accidently kill them not knowing their well wishes :lol:
And by the way, Slang, try reading
this. ;)
I salute you for spending time with your son, and agree with the documenting part. I assume all 3 of you are still living under the same roof; how is your son doing? My thoughts are with you.
Lookout: the wife is a burgeoing alcoholic. My best vibes are with you, man. This is no easy disease--it's a bitch and it changes the brain chemisty-look, I know you know this. Just keep on doing what you are doing and love the little guy.
i think she may be using cocaine again. i have no physical proof and she certainly wouldn't submit to a test, but i've just got a nagging suspicion.
the decision making processes have gotten more screwey again and (i know it sounds weird) her scent has changed. i am really sensitive to smell and i noticed the mornng after she went out with the girls that she skin smelled differently. i vaguely remember that smell from the bad old days. none of the other physical evidence is there though, so who knows...
i do know that 3 out of the last 9 nights she hasn't gotten home until AT LEAST 2:45 AM. yep, that is definitely responsible adult living there, let me tell you. pretty sure she hooked up with one of the MLB ball players in town for spring training.
i'm just loving life. we are stuck in the same house because we still haven't agreed on custody issues and if i move out i might as well just forfeit my demands for primary custody.
life sucks. but as the bulimic says after a meal, "this too shall pass."
I had a friend who did similar things - actually she did exactly the same things that you're describing. I was very close to her, and all I ever really understood about what she was thinking and doing was just that she had a "mid-life crisis". Yes, she was female, and only in her 20's, but a mid life crisis is still the only way I can describe what she went through. When her husband decided he was ready for child #2, she freaked out, decided she was quite content with motherhood with their only child - a three year old. She immediately started drinking more, doing almost any drugs whenever they were around and started being unfaithful to her husband. Soon after, they divorced......about 4 or 5 years later she settled down with husband #2, she's now on #3.
So, the alcohol and drugs were a ? symptom ? (I guess you'd say?) of her main problem in the beginning, but of course, the drugs and alcohol can quickly become the main issues of concern, especially when there's a child involved.
That was back in 1984, but it's been on my mind a lot ever since Lookout started describing his life these days....I always felt bad for my friend's husband, the poor guy never did figure out what he'd done wrong, of course, he hadn't done anything.
And as for the scent thing - I could always smell meth on my ex, back in the day......
Baseball players and coke would certainly go together. Geez, from what you describe you're going to be the fortunate one to be rid of her.
I figured all along she was heading back to coke, Lookout. An addict can't afford to get involved with ANY substance, since it invariably leads them back to their drug of choice. Not only does coke go well with baseball players, it goes great with alcohol, too. You can drink more and the booze helps smooth the jitters coke can induce. I hope you are documenting ALL this. It might not hurt to get one of those little voice activated tape recorders either, so you could record some unintelligible inebriated conversations with her. The judge would adore listening to THOSE, I'm sure!
Try to find a 3D support group to help you through this bad time. I can only imagine what it must feel like to be sitting around at 2:AM, imagining your wife all coked up and running around with God knows who. Your boy needs a sane parent in his life. I think you have a good chance of getting full custody if you document all this stuff.
I know this is something you would probably would be adverse to doing, but have you considered getting a temporary restraining order on her? If she comes back in the small hours of the morning and starts drunken arguments or takes a swing at you or something, you'd have grounds to request one. She would be the one who would then have to leave the house.
Geez, from what you describe you're going to be the fortunate one to be rid of her.
It sounds that way to us, but like Lookout said, he's missing the person he married, not this person she has become. We could save ourselves a lot of pain if we could just "turn off" our feelings when we need to....
lookout, have a cop waiting for her when she drives up next time. He or she will be more than happy to administer the appropriate test/search for illegal substances when operating a motor vehicle is involved.
It sounds that way to us, but like Lookout said, he's missing the person he married, not this person she has become. We could save ourselves a lot of pain if we could just "turn off" our feelings when we need to....
Well said. Who's to say that person will ever return though? Sometimes feelings must be severed even though it's hard and takes time.
lookout, have a cop waiting for her when she drives up next time. He or she will be more than happy to administer the appropriate test/search for illegal substances when operating a motor vehicle is involved.
Oooooh! Brilliant and very diabolical, Noodle! I doubt that Lookout has the heart for such a tactic (he seems too much the gentleman), but if things get REALLY nasty, Lookout would have the former Mrs. Lookout by the tits (as opposed to balls)! ;)
i talked to one of the cops i know and he said that until i KNOW with a capital KNOW that she is using, i better not even speak it out loud. if i play that card and she submits to a test and nothing is found pretty much everything i say from that point on will be ignored.
because her time of arrival on going out nights has varied from 2:30 to 4:30 there is no way i will get a cop to sit tight.
she hasn't been too belligerent and never violent when she comes home. she knows that stuff doesn't work on me. my method of dealing with stupidity is to just stare at her and smile until she runs out. it only makes her (or any drunk idiot) that much angrier. if it came down to it, i wouldn't hesitate to go for the R.O. but i won't manufacture an excuse for one.
so i'm having a hard time on the housing situation. our house (and i don't mean to brag) rocks. we both make healthy incomes and we moved before the housing market went stupid. we have a larger than normal lot, with a comfortable mid-sized home with freaking disneyland in the back yard. Pebbletec pool, large putting green and separate chipping area with small sand bunker, flagstone entertainment area with fireplace, bar, grill, seating area, kids play area... and we are at the foot of the mountain.
although i can technically afford to buy/build something quite similar i just don't want that large of a monthly expense. BUT, i'm having a hard time finding something in the price range i want that comes even close to my expectations. the condo's across from my office building, which were apartments a year ago are selling for $100K more than i built my current house for. i've been batting around the idea of just renting for 6 months to a year until i can really focus more rationally on my priorities for housing. i just hate to throw away rent money. plus, i can do any home improvement projects tht might keep my mind/body busy. and yes, there is some arrogance about owning my own home.
i would like just one easy decision. of course, as my mother pointed out - i should count my blessings that i've got a choice - i'm not forced into a 1 bedroom apartment yadayadayada.
If the cocaine (or other drug use) is a reality and not a suspicion ... and if you are as clean as the driven snow, see what you can do about having random drug testing written into the custody agreement.
that is the problem wolf the cocaine is a very very strong suspicion, but i have no hard proof - only old history that looks a lot like what i am seeing right now. if she isn't using right now, she will be soon. an addict cannot hang out in the places she is with the people she is with and not fall back into it at some point.
and yes - i am as clean as the driven snow.
i talked to one of the cops i know and he said that until i KNOW with a capital KNOW that she is using, i better not even speak it out loud. if i play that card and she submits to a test and nothing is found pretty much everything i say from that point on will be ignored.
But you know for sure she's drunk, right? Couldn't a cop simply be there (assuming you could get him to hang out with you for a few hours) to test her for being over the legal limit when she drove home? And if he just happened to test her for other substances on his own suspicions, that's not really you playing any sort of card, is it?
yeah, so, i've had a couple of beers. for the first time in 4 months. i miss beer. i miss a lot of things. like not feeling like my life is ending. yeah, i kind of miss that.
i had the opportunity to do a few things today that i really really enjoy. or at least i used to enjoy. all i could think is "YOU ARE STEALING EVERY FUCKING DREAM I HAVE EVER HAD IN MY POINTLESS FUCKING LIFE YOU FUCKING BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
but then i thought i might be overreacting.
so i threw a dining room chair through a plasma tv. fortunately i owned it.
so she comes home and asks "why is the tv in the trash?" the only rational response i could come up with was, of course, "blow me whore, i'll leave the money on your nightstand."
yeah hours later i pretty much feel like shit. as much as i know she deserves every cruel thing i could think to say... i love her. i miss her. the real her. i hate this person that she is. i mourn the person she was. i miss the quiet nights after cam is asleep just watching [I]friends[I]or some other stupid thing. i miss waking up early to talk about our day's plans. i miss looking across the table at some restaurant laughing about what it was like when we were shit poor eating peanut butter for dinner. i miss planning our next vacation. i miss having my hand slapped away after getting out of the shower. i miss telling "the guys" that i was the luckiest man on the planet because i had everything i had ever wanted. i miss standing in a store while a lady flirts with me and my response is to think "oh, she's cute, but nothing compared to Mrs Lookout" instead of "who the fuck cares - she'd only shit on your heart given the chance." i miss my life. i miss my wife. i miss being the confident guy i was just a few short months ago.
i miss being something other than the pathetic lump of co-dependent flesh i somehow became. how does this happen?
in another thread someone asked "is the cellar real?" fuck yeah it's real. it is midnight and i know i have to be to work to put a smile on my face for my clients in a few short hours. i have tears running down my face. once upon a time i had friends. i had friends standing by that would take a bullet for me. one who did. now i have a bunch of distant aquaintances that remember the old days. they have wives who love them. kids who need them. and i sit alone. everything i have thought, planned, and done in the last 7 years is gone. everything. everything i did before that has been pushed aside or erased for the priorities of the last 7 years. the priority. the woman that i love. the woman who i thought loved me. the lie that i lived. so now i get to sit here and realize i have nothing. well, that isn't true. i have a beautiful son that i want to watch grow into a better man than i can ever be. unfortunately for him, he needs a father who is a better man than i will ever be.
so those are my thoughts for the night.
so if you are ever sitting around and wondering if the cellar is real - read this thread to assure yourself it is. there is some sorry son of a bitch in phoenix arizona pouring his heart out to you all. anonymous though we may be, you're all i've got. so yeah, to me - the cellar is as real as it gets.
thanks for reading my bullshit.
Hey, Lookout, I'm there in spirit with you tonight. Its pretty late here in Colorado, too, and in the morning, I get to go fight this cold monster in court to try to get some of my disability money back that he appropriated for himself. I'll get to sit in the courtroom alone behind him and his rich new girl friend, and watcher her act all protective and concerned and whisper advise in his ear on how best to avoid even giving me so much as a damn financial accounting and bank statements concerning my own money. I wasn't even married to this SOB and he still walked off with damn near everything I had.
There was a time when that man was the "only one I trusted," a time when I loved him with all my heart and soul and thought he was wonderful. People can play some damn nasty tricks, can't they?
I'll probably get my ass kicked because I don't have any money for a lawyer, but at least I'll have the knowledge that I didn't just lay down and die, and I fought back with every ounce of spirit I've got in me. And at least I know I have a place to live now and its a place 500 miles from here, thank God!
This too shall pass, and I have it on the best of authority that the sun WILL come up in the morning in both Arizona and Colorado.
The darkness never wins, Lookout. Invariably the light does return.
Here's to the destruction of our enemies and better days ahead for us both.
May God bless.
- Mari
As the resident physiopsycho-sexual therapy recommender in this thread, I just want to say that, with a good lawyer on your side, you'll need to worry *far* less about who you see for a bit of mutually agreeable adult shagging that your ex will need to worry about the whole substance abuse issue. And, if things get nasty, that sort of stuff will come up, but I still say that level headed adult behavior beats being a hopped up single mom any day.
By all means, be discreet, be adult, be mature...but I don't believe you have to be celibate. Your mental health (and a healthy sex life, especially in times of stress like this, is a critical component of mental health) is going to be sorely tested during the divorce and subsequent years. (Don't think for a moment that once the divorce is done that your agony with her stops...you have a child together, and whatever *you* think is best for that child is likely to be diametrically opposed to what she thinks, even if she might have thought you right before the divorce).You're going to need to take care of your self-esteem and your positive self-image in order to be the man you're going to need to be. Rock on, my brother.
Very, very good advice. Thinking back, now I remember how much it not only hurts, but beats down your feelings of self-worth. It DOES help a lot, after going through shit like this, to be held, feel wanted and remember that you are a desirable, attractive, interesting person who deserves to feel good about themself and to be happy- even if, at first, it's only for a while. It may take you a little longer Lookout, but as soon as you can, do this for yourself. You WILL feel better!
Lookout--I read your last post and my heart just broke for you. My friend, you have my thoughts and best wishes. I know how you feel; I loved my husband and he divorced me at the worst possible time, I felt so broken and useless and he kept telling me that I was broken and useless and I internalized that and started to ACT that way. Don't you do that-you're strong! You are one of the sweetest people I've had the pleasure to talk with here. It is HER problem, lookout, not yours. SHE is acting nutty and probably using. Using people are never themselves, are never rational and can be UberCruel as the substance abuse takes away their humanity. I send you a huge cyberhug and kiss and know I am sending you good vibes.
Dude you and I are in such similar situations its scaring me - the only big differences are that I never had any money, left the house and she tried to frame ME for using. I too felt as low as a person could. I was thinking - "What the F*ck is wrong with me that this is happening?" Eventually, I realized it was her and not me. I am slowly, SLOWLY getting my self respect and self worth back and you will too. All my lifelong friends are where I thought I was and cannot comprehend this trainwreck of my existence. I totally understand how you feel - If you EVER EVER need to talk to someone, PM me and I'll give you my cell number. Call me Anytime, Anyplace, Anything you need - Just know that someone is there for you - if no one you know, then I will be because I do understand and can completely relate to your feelings.
Oh and yes the cellar is as real as anything in life and in some cases - moreso!
We're here for you, Lookout. Come back and rant any time. Hang in there. You will get through this.
Do not let her ruin herself and you. Mrs lookout is the one doing this to you. Mrs lookout is the one doing this to your son. Mrs lookout is the one with screws loose. Not you. You're feeling what any caring person would after getting stabbed like this and rightfully so. Mrs lookout is a beast unto her own at this point and you shouldn't project her malevolence unto yourself or anybody else.
Even hurricanes don't last forever... you'll make it through.
Lookout long time no post - Whats goin on? You hangin in there?? Give us an update. Personally, I'm starting to get worried about you.:worried:
eh, don't worry. i'm too dumb to give up on anything. there have been a few rough patches and there will be more but as long as i'm on the right side of the grass everyday life will be ok.
i made and offer and it was accepted for a new home today. it isn't my dream home but it'll do for a year or two.
tonight i am going to sit her down and offer to give up $xx,xxx that is rightfully mine if we can just bring this to a close. money isn't worth the headaches. and my new mortgage will be a lot cleaner if the negotiations are a done deal.
Well, you're the only one that can decide how much expedience is worth. I will caution you to think it through carefully as the results may vary from what you expect.
But you know all that.:blush:
well, the thing is that i know if i push for that money it will be awarded to me. BUT in order for her to pay me the money she would have to qualify for a bigger refi on our house and I don't know if she can - i'm pretty doubtful honestly. I think they got pretty creative to get her as much as they did. If they award me the money and then she can't come up with it we will both be screwed because the court will order the sale of the home and then it may be 4-6 months before i get ANY money, thus making life difficult for me in setting up a new home.
i am willing to graciously allow her to keep the money, IF she is willing to take care of labor costs for some projects i want at my new place (she can barter in her business). not quite a win/win... but nothing in this whole situation is when you get down to brass tacs.
Jeez, you're letting her keep the house AND the money? :eyebrow: Well, I DO understand about just wanting to be done with the whole mess, but, face it, until lil Lookout is 18, you won't be. How's the custody thing going to work? Take care of YOU, Lookout!
Good to hear from you. Our paths cross again. I hope things work out the best for you and lil-lookout. The decisions you make now affect you and him for much longer than the expediency may be worth, but that is your call and I understand your perspective. It is terribly difficult to be away from my own kids as much as I have been forced to be.
On a personal note - I was accused of being a "coke-addict" at my custody hearing on Wed. and the Master ordered that we both suppy hair samples for drug testing. When he gave us 6 weeks to get it done, I jumped up and said "WHY! ! ! Lets do this today - I am being withheld from seeing my kids I have 2 teenage boys who need to be taught how to be men." After my outburst, he cleared the courtroom for 20 minutes and when we reconvened he sternly lectured her,agreed with me and granted me weekend custody with all 3 kids till this is settled! Also, we'll get back into court in 2 weeks instead of 8 to finalize custody. Now she's really screwed, cuz I'll pass with flying colors, since I don't use drugs, and she will lose all credibility with the court.
Mari - her keeping the house wasn't even up for argument, i don't have any real desire to carry that much debt entirely on my own. whoever keeps the house has to dip deeply into the substantial amount of equity to buy the other person out. i can technically afford it, i just don't want to live like that. not even for my dream house.
i am in the purchase process on a much smaller and much less expensive home that will be adequate for the time being.
as far as giving her "the money"? i'm not giving it all to her. i just have to be realistic - if i push for that last little bit, even though i'm entitled to it, there are negative consequences for me and little lookout. on the upside the fact that I am the one who proposed accepting a smaller payout -helping her in a huge way - doesn't go unnoticed, and can come in handy when negotiating for other areas like custody, child support, etc.
Sounds like you know what you're doing. Continue to keep us posted, and give lil' Lookout a big hug from me. ;)
lookout123,
Money was completely unimportant to my dad, he had more than enough when he passed away, at other times in his life, he didn't any.
He valued intangible things like connections with family, personal values, morals, beautiful music, funny stories, tilting at windmills, his children.
Littlelookout will no doubt benefit from your willingness to spend a couple of bucks to get on with the important things in life.
Money is energy, energy is infinte, days with our loved ones, finite, more precious.
He's a lucky lad.
i guess i should update this. i look forward to asking UT to lock this thread in the near future. not yet, but soon.
we have agreed on 99.9% of everything that goes into the decree so I will have my attorney draft that all up this week.
life is weird, because i still do not want a divorce, still don't believe that our marriage is unfixable (if 2 people just decide they want to), but i have gotten my mind wrapped around the concept of being divorced. things get better day by day, well mostly - 3 steps forward, 1 step back and all that jazz.
life is even more weird because our interactions are more like a couple in the fairly early stages of serious dating rather than the tail end of a divorce. she has, at different times, stated that she still loves me, doesn't really want a divorce, knows that this is a mistake... but "if we don't do this now, it'll just happen some other time."
in the end i've come to the realization that the woman i've loved - and still do love - is in there somewhere, but she is choosing to be someone different for some unknown reason. i don't much care for the new person. i wouldn't marry the new person if given the choice so i'm done fighting for a marriage to this new person. it sucks, but that's life.
i close on the new house 5/15. certainly not anything approaching my dream home, or even my current home, but at only 50% the price it is a fair value and it will get me through a year or two. friday i went and bought an entire household of new furniture. expensive. but good therapy. bringing in the new stuff.
that's about it folks. thanks for your continued encouragement.
Keep on Keepin on dude , all is well , this to shall pass ,
EVERY THING IS A LIFE EXPERENCE !!!!!
And Ain't life a BITCH to experence !!!
Have beer on me !!! ;)
[HTML]bringing in the new stuff[/HTML] That can be just the ticket for getting on with your life. New directions, new goals, are not necessarily bad, once you're into it.
You'll be OK. :thumb:
wow, lookout
Thanks for sharing an incredible heartbreaking account of what's happening to you. I feel for you. I do with tears in my eyes as anyone who has exprerienced loss would.
I am trying to fast forward my sympathetic emotions to where you are now. That would be with seeing you with everything you want. Everything you need money, housing and custody wise feeling secure in all that.
Everygood thought is with you. I know the rays of sunshine began to heal long before I even read this thread.
sincerly,
sky
so can anyone tell me when I'll start feeling human again? i know i'll be broken for quite a while as time works it's magic and all that but seriously.
last night i'm with some friends at a local jazz bar. this chick who is, to be honest, the very picture of "my type" that it was scary. 5'5" petite but shapely, dark skin, dark hair, green eyes, beautiful smile, nice, funny, intelligent... my very definition of perfection. At first she was subtly flirting, then not so subtly, then blatantly throwing herself at me.
my reaction? "who cares?" i couldn't even express interest. every time she walked away my friends are telling me i'm an idiot. after explaining that i just wasn't up to the task (task - since there was no challenge) they had the normal guy responses about who cares about tomorrow, focus on tonight, blahblahblah.
my thought was - this chick is exactly what i would describe to anyone wanting my definition of the perfect fit for me. but i'm not at a place where i can even conceive of having anything approaching a healthy relationship and the thought of using that one for a one night stand... just couldn't do it.
i know i'll kick myself in the ass for not taking her to bed, but that isn't even my real complaint. when the hell am i going to be able to look at another woman and actually be interested?
this is the part that sucks about being "that guy". the entire time i was with my ex i had no desire to be with anyone else. other guys would say "i'd like get a piece of that one." my response was always "i've got exactly what i want at home."
eh, whatever. maybe i should have just drank more so i could have had the horrible experience of waking up with her this morning?:rolleyes:
oh, and a separate issue from last night? when did people become so incredibly stupid and shallow?
my friends are in the same field i'm in so we all have fair incomes - but none of us are flashy or talk about money or anything... anyway, i'm sitting with them, and some random chick comes walking up and starts idly chatting. i bought her and her friends drinks when we got our next round and we're just chatting. i don't know anything at all about this girl - i've talked to her for about 10 minutes at this point. her first question of substance? not hobbies, age, availability, or anything remotely appropriate. She goes for the big gun:
Soooo. How much money do you make?
WTF??? after i picked up my jaw, i piqued her interest when i pulled out my wallet, pulled out a couple of bills and told her that i'd like to buy her and her friends another drink - on one condition. That they move to the other side of the bar and agree not to talk to me for the rest of the night.
She got a little pissy.
seriously though - is that the kind of question you ask when first meeting someone?
i'm not sure how much i'm going to like this dating thing.
She goes for the big gun:
Soooo. How much money do you make?
Apparently, she wasn't looking for a date, she was looking for a trick. :eyebrow:
Don't sweat it Lookout - there are a hundred sheep to every shepard and you are obviously not looking for a sheep mindlessly headed to slaughter - you want, and deserve, a lot more than that. Give it time.
Oh, and no that is a completely inappropriate question to ask at that or any other time - just my opinion :)
my reaction? "who cares?" i couldn't even express interest. every time she walked away my friends are telling me i'm an idiot. after explaining that i just wasn't up to the task (task - since there was no challenge) they had the normal guy responses about who cares about tomorrow, focus on tonight, blahblahblah.
my thought was - this chick is exactly what i would describe to anyone wanting my definition of the perfect fit for me. but i'm not at a place where i can even conceive of having anything approaching a healthy relationship and the thought of using that one for a one night stand... just couldn't do it.
Why does it have to be one or the other? Perhaps you should try telling the next perfect girl all of this--explain that she's very nice, intelligent, etc., and maybe awhile down the road it would be great, but right now you're not in a place where you can have a relationship. Maybe it'll turn out SHE'S just coming out of a painful separation as well, and is only throwing herself at you in an attempt to build up her own self-esteem again. Maybe you'll find a sincerely lifelong friend with no "relationship" expectations at all.
Which is all a sneaky way of getting yourself to be able to see women as good friends again, which is step one to being interested in another woman again someday. ;)
Spot on, Clodfobble. Your never in a position where you can't use another friend. Make that have, rather than use, another friend. Use carries some baggage.
Anyway, friends with different perspectives can be helpful. There is no harm in friends with privileges, either....as long as you're upfront with everything.
Heh, heh, heh, Spellcheck wanted to change Clodfobble to Cultivable. :lol:
She goes for the big gun:
Soooo. How much money do you make?
Ease up lookout, don't you know the IRS is now sending plainclothes auditors out onto the street? :D
I think C'fob is right re: why not just be up front and not get into the whole "dating game" game? My personal rule of thumb is six months off after a serious relationship of one year, plus another month for each additional year. In your case I'd add an extra six months of being single just to give you the time you need to sort out some of the serious mind fucking you've under gone.
It's great that you can ignore your friends' boorish behaviour. As for unwinding activities not involvong the two backed beast, I hear fly fishing is great.
Anyway. Give your self a much needed break from another person's crazy-ness.
I think our well-meaning friends may be overlooking one type of female that you *will* meet, Lookout. You will meet one or more ladies to whom you will lay it out on the line in all honesty and truth...and one or more of those ladies will see it as a personal challenge to "save" you, screw you senseless, make you love again, etc.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I'm just sayin'...
Who will, at regular intervals, say "Poor baby..."?
Hang tight Lookout - all is well. When we don't know the motivation for another persons actions, we can be biased to the reality because of oour own preconceived notions. She couold have been really nice and just trying to get to meet you or a the complete opposite just lookin to get laid. People never cease to amaze - and dissappoint me - ya just gotta give 'em a chance to determine which. Keep lil lookout safe and things with you will all play out in due time. Just give yourself the time you need.
Who will, at regular intervals, say "Poor baby..."?
"Harvey" is one of my favorite films!
Sooo, my not quite ex is seeing someone - but swears she isn't. I know for a fact that she is. And I've known the bastard as long as she has. frickingfrackingsonamotherlessgoat...
anyway - in our not-yet-finalized divorce agreement we agreed that we would not introduce people we were dating to our son until it was a serious relationship - to avoid messing with his head.
well, she has neatly skirted that issue by saying that she isn't seeing anyone. She has been taking my son to hang out with her at the prick's house, taking him to the prick's kids sporting events, etc... But there isn't a damn thing I can do about it, because she isn't "dating" him.
what exactly is the proper response here - other than throttling her and burying him in the desert?
As much as anything, wouldn't the problem be that the agreement is "not yet finalized"? It also seems like it would difficult for EITHER party to enforce. "Oh, him/her! We're not dating, we're just friends!"
It sucks the way she is continuing to game you, Lookout.
Are you guys trying for joint custody or is she the main custodial parent? Frankly, I don't think she should be taking lil' Lookout ANYWHERE from what you have described of her behavior.
And burying the dude out in the desert would seem like an enticing option.
Perhaps this show of poor faith on her part is something that could be brought to the judge's attention?
I would say report this information regarding the not-dating to your attorney.
[HTML]She has been taking my son to hang out with her at the prick's house, taking him to the prick's kids sporting events, etc...[/HTML]These are dates? Or are they dating without the kid around? Are you sure you aren't jumping to conclusions? :confused:
she hooked up with this guy a few weeks or so ago, and they've been "just hanging out" sometimes til 4 or 5 in the morning. sure they could be playing parcheesee, but...
the bringing the kids along thing has only been in the last several days.
i know that eventually my son will meet whoever she is dating - that is a part of life. the issue is that we had come to an agreement that we weren't going to drag our kid out for every little fling. that just messes with a kid's head. her older sister has had an amazing string of boyfriends that she has inflicted on her kids and it messes with them. no stability and all that. adults can deal with the fact that lovers come and go. kids have a harder time understanding why mom isn't friends with the nice guy who was here last week.
Sure, I understand your concern for the kid, just wondering if you're worrying needlessly in this case. You may be right, I was just wondering.
You could tell him you're planning on burying any lovers in the desert.;)
i feel your pain i have seen many friends marriages that end is bad situations sometimes even before they have really begun. to see them go through it really tares me apart. I have been married for four years now and we seem to be doing well together, people come to us and ask advise but there is nothing we can tell them they haven’t all ready heard. the main thing to remember is the children is the most important thing for it is they that suffer the most and most just suffer in silence.
"You could tell him you're planning on burying any lovers in the desert"
PS
Bruce it is still illegal to dispose of unwanted people in the desert. isn't it? though did you know that a pig can dispose of a body in just a couple of hours you just have to remember to go back later to dispose of the teeth.
Any chance of talking to the guy and explaining this to him?
well, i'm pretty sure that if he cared at all what i thought he wouldn't be fucking my wife. i know she is my soon to be ex, in my book - until you aren't married, you're still married. he knows me. he knows some of what has unfolded here. he is just stepping in to get a piece of ass that is normally out of his alcoholic redneck league.
She's probably been doing that guy for ages, but has only let it come out in the open now that the divorce is becoming official.
You're getting there, lookout. Just hold on till all the paperwork is done, then she will officially become someone else's problem.
Wasn't sure what the situation was exactly. I am inclined to agree with mrnoodle that this is probably in the open only now. Sounds like they deserve each other.
Just more evidence to present that she's unfit to take care of your kid.
Sounds like they deserve each other.
Exactly. Woe unto us who get what we deserve. Give it time. The train will wreck yet.
1) she doesn't admit that she is doing anything
2) he is certainly only a recent hookup
3) he is not the first
4) he won't be that last
...You're getting there, lookout. Just hold on till all the paperwork is done, then she will officially become someone else's problem.
BWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
/evil lookout laugh
i hate her i love her i hate her i love her i hate that i love her.
*disclaimer: unfortunately, even after all of this i have yet to feel any hate for her. i still love her with such intensity that at times i cannot breathe. i was starting to come unglued in my office today and new that i didn't have time to go anywhere sufficiently private so i went to the hotel across the street, rented a room, and laid on the bed and cried like a baby for 3 hours.
i can only explain it like this: i feel like a swimmer who pushes off from the shore of a large lake. i KNOW that there is another side to the lake. i just can't see it. as i get further away from the shore i get tired. and scared. the waves are kicking my ass. i am stuck doggy paddling while the waves of sorrow, regret, hurt, and anger wash over. i can't even picture the other side of this turmoil, let alone have any comfort that i will get there. so i paddle.
side note: i get to move out of my house on *drum roll* my birthday! started as Merry F'in Christmas - rolls on into Happy F'in Birthday.
Worthless but freely cast advice:
Check that you are reacting solidly to your kids welfare and not to her sexual activity. If the kid is clueless for now, you should be ok. If you sense the kid is in the middle of weirdness and threatened, suggest, as the adult, without passion or detailed accusation, that you are uncomfortable with him visiting this friend and that he should he come and hang out with you or yours during those house visits and sporting matches. Dont accuse, or get emotional, just insist, its for your parenting comfort. Go on your parenting intinct. Oh, and let your attorney know the situation.
Aw guy. keep your head up. we're all looking from the shore, holding out sticks, and ropes and floaty things. Kick. rest. Kick. you'll make it.
Even Radio City didn't have a Christmas production that lasted this long.
As long as you love her she will continue to piss you off. Since love can't be just turned off (by most people) at will, you'll have to deal with the anger.
Hey, at least you know where it's coming from.
Yeah, it's a long way to the other side of the lake. It's scary, it's frustrating, but you know if you keep paddling you will make it. Set up the routine (cadence) you need to keep paddling without keeping track of the time. It'll go faster. ;)
Stroke, stroke, stroke,[SIZE="2"]stroke, stroke, stroke,[/SIZE][SIZE="1"]stroke, stroke, stroke[/SIZE]...........
Lookout - I haven't read every post in this thread, so I apologize if I am reposting something, but I just remembered you while I was reading this book:
Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care about Has Borderline Personality Disorder
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/157224108X/sr=8-1/qid=1145929167/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-5313877-5367315?%5Fencoding=UTF8
I'm not a psychologist, I'm not even going to pretend to diagnose her, but it struck a chord so I thought I'd pass it on.
so what do you do? seriously. when you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person you've promised your entire life to is cheating on you and basically turning themselves into a $2 whore... and you can't stop loving them - what do you do? when you know that, at the core, this person you've committed everything to is immeasurably wonderful and yet they've made themselves to be the pearls among swine - what do you do? how do you turn it off?
i started seeing the pshrink. just for me now. marriage cousneling is over. reconciliation is off the table. this is about me now. after spending another morning curled up at my desk sobbing i called the pshrink. i swallowed what little pride i have left and threw in the towel. i'm done. i'm finished. i have spent all the oomph and willpower i had. i got nada left. i spend an hour and $250 to hear "lookout - you are normal. there is nothing wrong with you. your reactions and emotions are 100% normal"
GREAT - i think. until i realize that if the way i felt was truly normal and run of the mill there would be a lot more mid-divorce corpses in the world. i'm too dumb, too stubborn, and probably too chicken to ever take teh easy way out. hell, the only thing that gets me out of bed everyday is the knowledge that little lookout needs at least one normal healthy responsible parent. or at least one who can put the mask on to that effect. but seriously - when do i get to quit loving her? when do i get some relief?
i know all of the answers in a logical, rational, intellectual way. i truly do know it. but that doesn't stop the sleepless nights. nor the nightsweats when i actually do manage to pass out into blissful oblivion. it doesn't prevent me from walking out of my office for a couple hours each day to stare at a spot that we had a good family memory in. it doesn't prevent me from sitting next to the swimming pool sobbing while envisioning the hours that a happy family spent there playing, dreaming, and planning for the future. all the rational thought in the world doesn't stop me from needing a 6 pack + or an ambien every couple of days just to be able to sleep so i can keep my eyes open for the drive to work the next day.
is this REALLY normal?
when do i get to be human again? i don't expect to just wake up one day without hurt... but c'mon - when does it quit being this suffocating force?
apparently i broke some production award that my firm tracks. i had the fastest start on record - that goes back to 1871. i've got multimultimultimillionaires calling me asking me how i did it. i can barely concentrate on the conversations. these are the guys who get to decide on future partners and i'm telling my secretary to take a message. this is fucked up. there are currently 10,000 active people doing what i do - many more have retired - and i've set some record and all i can think is, "who cares? i don't have the woman i love to share it with." in fact, i mentioned it to her and her response was "why couldn't you do that when we were together?" I SET A RECORD IN A HUGE ASS FIRM! AND I DID IT WHILE GOING THROUGH THE MOST PAINFUL PERIOD OF MY LIFE. HOW MUCH FASTER - HOW MUCH MORE SUCCESSFUL DO I NEED TO BE TO BE CONSIDERED SUCCESSFUL???
when does my heart get to catch up to my brain? the divorce isn't my fault. i didn't cheat. i didn't beat. i never even raised my voice. i made money. i loved my wife and my son, in that order, without fail. what was i missing? we were living the american dream. she quit. she walked away. she shit on me. when do i get to stop feeling like i failed?
Giving bad news to people who don't deserve it is difficult but it may be a good while before the pain stops. Best advice I can give you is to just let it run its course and don't fight it, don't question it and above all, don't medicate it.
Nice job on setting the record. The irony of your personal/professional situation is actually a classic case. You win the "affection" of the world without even trying. That means you are "really, really good", right? Well, if you are so good then how come there is still one person whose affection you can't win no matter how hard you try? So whom do you believe? Do you believe The World whose affection is of little value other than as a benchmark or The One upon around whose opinion your entire world orbits???
You know those Tibeten dudes who sit in sub-zero freezing weather at the top of those mountains in Nepal wearing little more than a bedsheet but who are never cold and who can answer "What is the sound of one hand clapping" and can tell you if that tree nobody saw falling made a noise when it did? Those guys have no fucking idea what the answer to your question is.
So while we, the collective fount of knowlege and wisdom that is The Cellar, also have no freaking idea what the answer to your question is, I thought you might take at least some comfort in knowing that neither did/does Einstein, Dr. Phil, Buddha, the Dali Lama, Confuscious, the eight-ball you get at Spencers, Nostrodamus nor the really smart guy in accounting who knows everything.
Some things, lookout, we just weren't meant to know. But its not because each and every one of us haven't asked the exact same question at some point. You never will get your answer but one day when you least expect it- and sooner than you would think- it'll just suddenly occur to you that "who cares?" That will be a good day.
Ironically, but necessary in order to keep the karmic balance, the day that the question keeping you up at night diminishes in importance to the extent that you no longer care what the answer is, a question will form in the mind of someone else. A question that will dog them for the rest of their life. Things will make more sense then.
Some people get hit by cars, some people get cancer, some people marry selfish nutjobs. You could have been king of Holland with anything a couple could wish for and she'd probably find a way to minimize it or make it about her.
Is this the same shrink you were seeing before? Does he / she fully realize what has happened? I'm not all for the treat everything with a pill but there is stuff they can give you to help with what you're feeling. I'm sure they are reluctant to do this (just like they aren't going to dispense meds when a loved one dies) but you're case is really severe. It's not beneficial if you crack up and do something regrettable.
The person you loved is dead but you can't get closure because she's keeps on stabbing you. Anything that shields you from that would be of help. Hang in there lookout.
Maybe you dont turn it off, you let it go.
You deserve to be loved and that requires care and respect. Dont settle for less because youre scared.
Your ex is not immeasurably wonderful. She is, like most, flawed. She is making choices here and will reap the consequences, even if she tries to avoid it. She has motives that can no longer be trusted.
Again, its about you and the kid. That's your life and your promise. That's the trust to focus on. That's the good.
Glad youre talking to the Doc. Even if it feels like a cop out or a waste, its doing something. I hope it reminds you that youre OK. Youre OK.
GREAT - i think. until i realize that if the way i felt was truly normal and run of the mill there would be a lot more mid-divorce corpses in the world. i'm too dumb, too stubborn, and probably too chicken to ever take teh easy way out.
Yes, it's normal, and yes, that's why there aren't more corpses.
I vacillated between suicide and planning the perfect murder.
Beestie said it, spot on. I've got nothing to add but my very best. :)
rough rough day, folks. i'm moving the rest of my stuff from the house into my new house. everywhere i look, everything i touch brings a flood of memories. the little noises of the house that i know i'll never hear again. the handle on the toilet, i'd been meaning to fix.
onward and upward and all that jazz.
anyway, i'll be disconnecting the computer tonight and probably won't be hooked up to the web for a week or so, thus no cellar access. i'll check in when i can. until then, carry on.
All my love, lookout. I know this doesn't help much, but, I DO know how it is to feel the way you are currently feeling. I felt that way about my ex. I LOVED him, man. I LOVED HIM. Now, ten years later, I am glad we parted. It took me 7 years to get over him, but, now I see him for who he really is and not my fantasy of him. Lookout--hugs. All hugs. Just breathe. Thats all you have to do.
We'll hold a vigil till you get back. ;)
:fingerx: :bandaid: There doesn't appear to be a :lights candle for vigil: smilie, so I offer fingers crossed and a bandaid. Lookout, look out for yourself.
*sending you loving and healing energy*
alive and kicking. i've got my rental house set up and running now, and my new build should be done around january or february. i don't have time to really go into details right now but cliff's notes version:
1) interactions between the not-quite-ex are really really stupid at this point. she is now taking "niravam" to control her panic attacks - but she is perfectly mentally healthy, remember?
2) my son's teacher pulled me aside and asked what is going on. i'd already told her about the separation/divorce. apparently on the 3 days a week i drop him off at school he is happy, friendly... normal little lookout. on the 2 days she drops him off he gets in trouble, cries, and refuses to do some of his projects. not good.
3) anybody remember my goal to triple my income for the year? yeah, well with all the stress i haven't been able to do that. but i have more than doubled it year over year. [SIZE="1"]stupid bitch complaining that i don't make enough money...[/SIZE]
anyway, i'll fill in some gaps later.
Dude, that is a bummer about the little lookout. It's just fucking unfair. I'm praying that things improve for him and you somehow. I suppose it would n't hurt to pray that she wakes up and smells... something, anything.
That steams me. Sorry.
As bad as it all sounds it's actually helping your custody argument. It's too bad there is more than one victim in this whole ordeal :(
3) anybody remember my goal to triple my income for the year? yeah, well with all the stress i haven't been able to do that. but i have more than doubled it year over year.
Why fight to triple your income when she's going to get half of it?
no spousal support. one of her big arguments for keeping the house, etc. is that she is the one who always made the money, started the projects, etc. that is BS but i let her make the case, because she managed to argue herself out of spousal support. she makes a rather significant income herself anyway.
child support will be a necessary evil, but for now it is not needed because i am carrying medical, paying his tuition, etc.
and even if making more just means i'm giving her more... i know long term it isn't a healthy goal, but i want her every single month when she is struggling to maintain her lifestyle to 1) realize that i was integral in building that lifestyle, 2) she can't do it without me. yes, i know that it is likely that she will just find a replacement to make life easier. but she will still know.
she already does, but won't admit it. we each had to submit our YTD incomes last week and she nearly shit when she realized that so far this year i've made more than we did as a couple the entire year our son was born.
it's not about the money for me. it never was. but apparently it became all about the money for her, so i want her to see how badly she effed up.
I was engaged for five years to a young woman... she was pretty abusive, but I did not really understand that. It was all I knew at that point.
She cheated on me and left me one night... a while later she called me all upset and wanted to "talk". She was two hours away.
By the time she got to me I had realized who she was and all she had put me through.
When she arrived I informed her that I wanted to move-on with my life and find someone who would not try to kill me (another story).
She freaked. There is nothing better you can do for yourself than move on as quickly as possible and focus on being as healthy as you can for yourself and your son.
I'm sure you know that, but it may help to hear another's verification.
The day you truly realize you are better off and you are your own best and healthiest companion for your son now will be a very liberating day... it is freeing.
There is another side to that lake.
Living well is the best revenge.
George Herbert (1593 - 1633)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lookout123
3) anybody remember my goal to triple my income for the year? yeah, well with all the stress i haven't been able to do that. but i have more than doubled it year over year.
Why fight to triple your income when she's going to get half of it?
This reminds me of a probably inappropriate joke, but when has that ever stopped me?
Our hero is walking along the beach,sorting things out. Bottle. Genie. three wishes. A catch: what ever you wish for your adversary gets twice what you get.
Our hero wishes for:
1) Painlessly straightened teeth. His adversary gets perfect, white, painlessly straightened teeth.
2) Beautiful 10,000 square foot pleasure palace. Adversary? 20,000sf.
The genie asks "what is your last wish?"
Our hero says: "I want you to beat me half to death."
ok wrong.
Sounds like a right pickle mr Lookout :( hope things get a bit better for the lil one, sounds like he aint having fun all the time :(
Good Luck :)
**********warning: drunk post************
ok, so i really hate being angry at her. yeah, i know that sounds stupid after everything, but it is true. in all rational thought i want nothing to do with her and wouldn't take her back if she begged... but i'm not necessarily rational.
right now i've only got too speeds and i hate it.
1) i remember the good. the person she was. AND I WANT HER BACK. with such intensity that it is frightening.
2) i focus on the heartbreaking torture she has put me through and it takes every ounce of willpower i have not to strangle her.
my category 1 moods prevent me from moving on and finding enjoyment in life. my category 2 moods can eat me alive. i don't like being angry and bitter. it just isn't me. it was once - it took a lot of work and pain to not be that person - i don't want to be that person again.
there has to be a middle ground. for lack of a better term i'll call it indifference. i want to find it. i need to find it. i pretend to live there, but it is just an act.
A rock thrown in the water makes a lot of waves but they keep getting lesser and eventually things will calm down. Ride the waves. Don't drown, don't fight. Easier said than done I know.
Time lookout. Time is what you need to find that middle ground. Sorry but I can't say how much. Hang in there.
Time heals all wounds....
..and wounds all heels.;)
i know. i just don't get how someone can make the choices she has, and do the deeds she's done and not feel guilt. remorse. sorrow.
i just don't understand how someone can take a 180 degree shift in priorities and personality so quickly.
i guess the problem is the same problem i've always had. i believe there is an answer for everything.
One wrong turn can lead the what she knows is the wrong way, with the right support group telling her she's doing the right thing. A support group that knows nothing except they want to be supportive. (girlfriends) :eyebrow:
Mental problems aren't logical. At all. Nor do they mean all the normal feelings / thought patterns are there.
Bruce, you have girly support issues.
sadly enough what he said holds water in this case.
Bruce, you have girly support issues.
That's because I've seen so many of them make a bad situation a disaster. :rolleyes:
the not quite ex used this week to fine tune her cruelty skills. she had a breakdown regarding her ability to be a good mothera few nights ago. at the time i went to her aid in the interest of my son who deserves to have a somewhat healthy mother.
the evening turned into a veiled "it can't work between us, can it?" session. she knows she still owns my heart, and i'm well aware of it. i used what restraint i possess but was truthful. i told her that i didn't know if anything could ever work between us at this point because of what has passed, but i do love her. i explained that in order to pursue that train of thought would require her to cut ties with some people and actually fess up to something that have been denied up to this point. she was receptive.
i was well aware that it wouldn't happen. i'm not delusional. my requirements for even starting down that path are pretty... aggressive.
even so, she was able to break what was left of my heart open on the rocks and smear the the pitiful remnants into a wonderful sign that simply read, "HAHA"
bitch. every foul name you can think of for a person. except i still love who she can be. the person she rejects.
whatever.
It sounds like she used the only control technique that she knows for sure is available to her.
Been there, and shes still doing that. Rather she's still trying to do that. Once the realization that their control; over us is diminishing, they step up their efforts to exert as much pain and turmoil as possible upon us. You are a few months behind me in this insanity, so keep a sharp eye on her "motives" as there is a reason for her actions. Many times my "soon to be ex" has suddenly become sweet as pie in an attempt to get something from me - either financially or help with the kids, house, whatever. Perhaps its just because they can't lose their control over us. I dunno? I do know this though, once I stopped responding, she got even more cruel and hurtful. Then the shit passes and I feel a little better. Thats it! I feel a little better every time I say - NO! I won't be your lapdog anymore. And its a wonderful thing.
Document this kind of thing. It may ultimately be of use to your attorney.
Obvuiously somebody needs a Benign Girl.
women can be totally vicious when compelled. this may be her way at getting back for not getting everything she wanted (custody, $, everything).
Its a personality type more than a gender thing, I think. I've gone through the same kind of nightmare with a man on the dishing out end. Yeah, they love the control factor and they love smashing our hearts and souls to smithereens. The best thing I ever did was to vanish into the sunset 400 miles away from my ex. He has no idea where I am and he'll never find out if I can help it. What a relief! I know vanishing isn't an option with lil' Lookout in the picture, but try to emotionally vanish. You'll be the better off for it, believe me.
wow. expecting to be able to sign divorce papers this week and begin to put this all behind me. now i hear through the grapevine that the not-quite-ex is pregnant.
ouch.
pass me a beer. and the one behind it.
Is there no end to this madness?
You don't need a beer you need erasing.
Yikes.
From what you've said, this does not sound like a woman who needs to be reproducing just now.
Sorry, man. This must hurt like hell.
I'm sorry, lookout. At least you heard through the grapevine and not because she came to you asking for help/emotional support/money/more divorce concessions...
Is she naming you as the father? Is there even a possibility that she could? (yes, I could read back over the prior 30 pages and do some math on my own)
Don't admit paternity until there is a confirmatory test. In some jurisdictions, even when DNA testing shows that the named father on the birth certificate is not the father, that man remains financially responsible for the child.
In some jurisfictions, being married to the woman is de facto paternity even if there is no name on the certificate, even if later tests prove it is not the husband's. Do you know who the father supposedly is?
i am definitely not the father. (if this is true) the math would be off by more than 6 weeks. i would assume that the father is the "friend" who isn't a boyfriend. but he has been conspicuously absent for several weeks now.
i can't come out and ask her about it yet, because the person who told me really shouldn't have opened their mouth... but i'm not going to betray her trust, especially considering i may need her insider's info sometime in the future.
Should have gone to Don Corleone, straight away. :(
Think there's a chance she's not really pregnant? Wouldn't that be great?
your poor son, he will be so confused by this, as if he isnt going through enough right now.
i guess in a way though lookout; this is kind of a tie breaker for you.. not that everything else hasnt been.. but this is it. no turning back now; for either of you.
OMG Lookout - that totally sux! Talk to your lawyer, if you haven't already, and see what you can do to protect you & lil lookout legally and financially. This "woman" is absolutely crazy! I am so sorry.
Oh man... that is awful. I have been following this from the beginning, but I just never could bring myself to post. After all, I have never been married or had kids so it is hard for me to understand. But I can see how that would hurt and make things really difficult. For the sake of you and lil lookout, I hope this isn't true. But if it is, I am so sorry for you two and I wish you all the best. Many good vibes are coming your way from here in Kansas. :(
Lookout - long time no hear/here??? Whats goin on?
I second that....been wondering here too.....hope everything's going well for you......
hope everything's going well for you......
Did you just tune into this thread? :p
I'm late in but from what I've been reading your "ex" seems to have had an affair or more to the point many affairs. It’s no slight on you but my guess is it was her guilt that brought about the divorce.
One thing regarding your divorce papers; if it’s still possible put in writing that she can't move more than 50 miles from you. This will keep here from moving across country with your boy.
Part-time fathering sucks period. Quality time isn't planed it just happens, but you'll make the best of the situation, I'm sure.
It’s always the way when one person starts to break away the other tries to hold on tighter and the conflict only intensifies. Once you "turn" and accept it and moved on she will come a knocking. They always come back, but your can never change the stripes on a Zebra. Never take her back.
Look at yourself and learn from your choices in women. I know from experience that some of what broke your marriage up existed before you where married and you saw it. But, like most people in love you become blinded.
Read up on being a divorced dad. There are lots of recourses. Try and get that 50 mile limitation.
To be totally honest, I would look outside the USA for any future bride. American women are a totally different breed of female. I think your be pleasantly surprised by some of the women you can meet in Brazil, Russia, or Asia. They tend to hold more traditional qualities and are educated and independent.
aha. it's all suddenly very clear to me
Did you just tune into this thread? :p
Yeah....that
was stupid! But I do hope things are going "as well as possible" under the circumstances...ok I'll shut up now....just check in with us Lookout....we do wonder about ya!
To be totally honest, I would look outside the USA for any future bride. American women are a totally different breed of female. I think your be pleasantly surprised by some of the women you can meet in Brazil, Russia, or Asia. They tend to hold more traditional qualities and yet educated and independent.
Why does no one listen to me? I KNOW from people. I knew loverboy here was a creep from post one. Creep, creep, creepy creep-creep.
If you need to hear this for the sake of fairness Bri, I completely agree with you here.
If you need to hear this for the sake of fairness Bri, I completely agree with you here.
Thank you. Engineer's cannot be all bad! :) after all, my papa was an engineer.
Mail order brides are 'traditionally' uneducated, but that's definitely no reflection on their intelligence or ability to be as cunning as a cut snake to get what they want. These women come from third world conditions (in general) and are looking for a way out. They know what you want, so that's what you get. In return they get a lifestyle most of their family and friends will only dream about.
Oh yeah, and once you've taken them home, then you have to start sending money back for their poor mother.
what's wrong with engineers? I, for one, have avoided acceptance into the pocket protector clan. we're fun once you get to know us:)
Why does no one listen to me? I KNOW from people. I knew loverboy here was a creep from post one. Creep, creep, creepy creep-creep.
I totally resent that Brianna. I was born a poor, asian, mail order bride...
Oh my!! to quote bmw - "your can never change the stripes on a Zebra." and this one has shown his.
Why does no one listen to me? I KNOW from people. I knew loverboy here was a creep from post one. Creep, creep, creepy creep-creep.
I will never doubt you again.
Again meritless retorts that’s shows your prejudices and ignorances than useful insights. Calling nearly three BILLION women in the world uneducated, poor, and desperate is stunningly ignorant and has me questioning the intelligence level of you so called "high-minded" posters. On the one hand you call me a women hater then disparage 3 billion women; you tell me how to reconcile that.
"Mail order” when has that expression ever been used in this century. They have a thing called airplanes now. Your criticism about expanding your prospects is a case of bigotry and ignorance and you have nobody to blame but yourself for your failures. I never said to go trolling through third world slums, SO DON”T PUT WORDS OR IMPLICATIONS IN MY MOUTH…PUNKS!
Millions of Russian, Ukrainian and eastern european women have advanced degrees, as do women from China and other east Asian countries like India. Even Japan has been a great place to meet nice and tradtional minded women. Latin America has 10s of millions of college educated English speaking women that want to meet men from the USA. Even western european women offer far more traditional values for men than the so-called "liberated" american women.
Keep coming out to disparage me so the rest of the board can see your ignorance, bigotry, and hypocrisy.
"Mail order” when has that expression ever been used in this century. They have a thing called airplanes now.
How do you think mail gets to it's destination? Airplanes didn't kill mail orders; internet orders did. You could have tried "They have a thing called the internet now."
How do you think mail gets to it's destination? Airplanes didn't kill mail orders; internet orders did. You could have tried "They have a thing called the internet now."
Now I have said they have airplanes now, and now I will tell you that we now have telephones and internet.
Mail is so yesterdays news. Thanks for the add on but I think there was a larger point being made.
The fact that modern mail-order brides come via web pages and airplanes instead of a mail-order catalog doesn't change anything about your larger point.
Millions of Russian, Ukrainian and eastern european women have advanced degrees, as do women from China and other east Asian countries like India.
I once had a Ukrainian girlfried and boy, she was beautiful, intelligent, and really liked the arts. I have to say it would be hard to find an American woman that had so much going for her. Sorry to say that, but it's true. We're still "friends" too, though we've both gone our separate ways. And in my 44 years I don't think I'll ever have the sex life I had with her. Geez...maybe I should have...:neutral:
And in my 44 years I don't think I'll ever have the sex life I had with her.
Pah. Obviously she had the same filthy sexual morality as an American woman. Not "traditionally-minded" at all.
What does "traditionally-minded" mean exactly? She walks three steps behind you? She asks before speaking? She doesn't laugh at the size of your willy? What?
And why on earth would you want a mail-order bride who has a degree in anything? She's only going to be staying home, cooking and cleaning and lookin' after your babies. She doesn't need a degree!
If she's so damn great why does she need to be ordered through the mail like x-ray goggles?
This is so disrespectful to lookout and his thread that I'm ashamed of myself for even responding to his pointless ramblings. Sorry bro. really really sorry. Now bruce - tell me how to get someone on my ignore list or whatever its called - if there is one.
This is so disrespectful to lookout and his thread that I'm ashamed of myself for even responding to his pointless ramblings. Sorry bro. really really sorry. Now bruce - tell me how to get someone on my ignore list or whatever its called - if there is one.
Your so spineless I can't imagine you ever adding anything to any post. Just reading your wussy response makes me sick in my gut. Get a load of you talking down to me. You add zero to any topic I've responded to other than pom-poms for the weak hands played.
Ya, you go ahead and put me on what ever list you want. I will be just as unimpressed with it as I am by your wussy retorts.
So, bmwmcaw- ya know any good recipes?
I have 3 kids at home and choose not to deal with another here. You thoughts, opinions and retorts are backed up by equally meaningless data. I have no need nor desire to play with you. You know as much about these issues as you do grammer - and thats obviously not too much.
things are ok around here. me and mine are doing fine. when i am ready i'll post some details about recent events. until then... would one of the mods mind locking this thread so that it dies and isn't used as a place to be an asshat by anyone else? i'd appreciate it.
That seems like the community-oriented thing to do... PM me or any moderator when/if you want to open it again l123