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   Undertoad  Tuesday Mar 12 02:28 PM

3/12: Man strung up [graphic]



Things have to get worse before they got any better, but how much worse can things be? This Palestinian gentleman was strung up by his own people, an angry mob who accused him of collaborating with Israelis.

To cross threads, is this patriotism in action?

Jag, the warning on the subject line is for you -- in case you're eating brekky, hey you asked for a warning! So if you looked anyway, it's your fault.



dave  Tuesday Mar 12 02:47 PM

I thought just meant that it was a graphic and wasn't text-based!

I was eating brekky!



juju2112  Tuesday Mar 12 06:12 PM

Wow...look at all those patriotic Paletinians. Isn't patriotism great??



Nic Name  Tuesday Mar 12 06:33 PM

This couldn't happen in the United States, could it?

Say, to someone accused of collaborating with the Taliban ... John Walker Lindh? hmmm ...

Lynchings in America



dave  Tuesday Mar 12 07:16 PM

Yeah, I don't think it could happen to John Walker Lindh. He's sitting in a heavily fortified cell right now. Despite the fact that the government very clearly thinks that he is guilty (after all, they wouldn't prosecute him if they didn't), they've been very careful about preserving his rights and not allowing a bunch of rednecks to git that there boy an' string 'im up.

juju - I believe the proper adjective is "murderous". Let's take a look at what WordNet has to say about it.

Quote:
<b>patriotic</b>

adj : inspired by love for your country; capable or conducive to beating the living fuck out of an accused enemy collaborator and hanging them upside down for public viewing
No, that's not right. I made that last bit up myself, with a little help from the definition of <i>murderous</i>. There was nothing about that in the definition of <i>patriotic</i> - sorta the same state of affairs since we last clashed over what it meant. Can you drop the stupid US-bashing rhetoric for just one of your posts and say something like "Man, that is really fucked up"?


juju2112  Tuesday Mar 12 07:52 PM

No, man... sorry.. it's just the way I am. :]



elSicomoro  Tuesday Mar 12 08:11 PM

The big picture

So, let's say that Israel came out of its face and said that this particular man WAS an Israeli collaborator.

And, we have Palestinians...Arabs...attacking this man.

Would this then be an attack against Israel? And if so, would we really nuke the Palestinians?



dave  Tuesday Mar 12 09:10 PM

I don't think we'd nuke the Palestinians anyway. They attack Israel every day and we don't do shit.



paxton  Tuesday Mar 12 11:11 PM

Enemy

Worse has happened in war.

But if we are at war with those that would do this (which we aren't - there's a difference between al Queda and the Palestinians), then we must beware the fortunes that will befall our combatants.

That is, be prepared to see this. Like in Somalia.

In the end, I think our efforts are just. With freedom as our protector, so shall we complete our tasks abroad.

We will be successful. It's a war worth fighting.



jaguar  Tuesday Mar 12 11:41 PM

Quote:
I don't think we'd nuke the Palestinians anyway. They attack Israel every day and we don't do shit.
...................ohhh don't get me started on this BULLSHIT right now, I read two daily papers, 3 weeklies, and Iím really, really, really getting sick of this pile of bullshit line. TO be succinct the fucking butcher is quoted as "the Palestinians must be hit, and it must be very painful" "we must cause them losses, victims, so they feel a heavy price". Then "we will not negotiate unless there is total peace for seven days" What kind of bullshit is that? But noo, thatís not enough, why donít we tell them they have to round up the Ďextremistsí, then kill their police so they cannot even attempt to do it, after that, well bomb arafatís office so he canít operate effectively too. That will work really wellÖÖ..
If my country was occupied, and troops came though every now and then, rounded up every male, murdered people and ripped holes in my house Iíd take up a gun and try and kill as many of the motherfuckers as I could too. God fucking damn I wish they'd kill Arafat so that the international condemnation it caused got rid of Sharon, if anyone should be strung up, itís him.

Rant onÖÖ


Nic Name  Tuesday Mar 12 11:48 PM

A Moment Cafe moment



Last Saturday night in Israel.

If this image is too real for the political rhetoric of this thread, UT can take it down.

[Edit] It says "graphic" in the thread header, and I wouldn't have posted it otherwise. UT can update that warning to "Too Graphic" or take it down. The source is a news site. It may be worth knowing what the people in territory are seeing to understand the escallating responses on both sides.



Nothing But Net  Wednesday Mar 13 12:11 AM

Oh Nic, that is gross!

Soon to be available on Rotten, if that's not where you got it in the first place. I'd prefer some kind of caveat before seeing that!

BTW, where did you get that image (nudge)?



Nothing But Net  Wednesday Mar 13 12:24 AM

jag, there's surely enough blame on both sides. Pointing fingers and seeking revenge will never solve anything.

That being said, I do notice a not so slight difference in the way each side prosecutes their war (perhaps it has eluded you):

The Israelis seem to be concentrating on legitimate targets or actual combatants. To do otherwise would attact even more international condemnation, probably from the US as well. Even they know better.

Palestinians, on the other hand, resort to guerilla and suicidal tactics. Admittedly, it is the only avenue open to them, but what possible cause does it serve to walk into a bus, disco or cafe with high-explosives strapped to your body simply to kill a lot of civilians?

I'm not saying either side is right, but one side is hamstrung by rules that the other side does not respect.

Didn't September 11 and its aftermath teach you anything?



Nothing But Net  Wednesday Mar 13 12:56 AM

A little more perspective on the subject

Israel is a very small country, about 8000 square miles. That's about twice the size of Los Angeles County, with basically the same population density and ethnic diversity.

Now let's take very analogous situations (although there are differences in the cause). Remember the L.A. riots of the '60s and early '90s? What if some of the rioters had come into the suburban neighborhoods and started randomly killing large numbers of people. What do you think the response would have been?

If you said mass retaliation on South Central by the folks from the Valley, you would most certainly be wrong.

Frankly, I think the Israeli response has been remarkably restrained, given the circumstances. Maybe we could offer one side or the other a place to relocate in the vast uninhabited regions of the American West. Shit, they all live in a desert now anyway...



Nic Name  Wednesday Mar 13 01:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nothing But Net

The Israelis seem to be concentrating on legitimate targets or actual combatants. To do otherwise would attact even more international condemnation, probably from the US as well. Even they know better.
Today's reprisals:

Quote:
Israeli tanks and troops thrust into Palestinian refugee camps and took command of the streets in this key West Bank city today, killing 31 Palestinians in one of Israel's largest military operations ever in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
I don't know what to say. There are no good guys in this war.

Quote:
Earlier Tuesday, UN Secretary General Kofi Annan delivered his toughest statement on the Middle East, urging Palestinians to halt "morally repugnant" acts of terror and suicide bombings and Israelis to end their "illegal occupation" of Palestinian territory and stop using excessive force.



Nothing But Net  Wednesday Mar 13 02:46 AM

Nic, from your article

"Israeli tanks and troops thrust into Palestinian refugee camps and took command of the streets in this key West Bank city today, killing 31 Palestinians in one of Israel's largest military operations ever in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Seven Israelis were killed, including six in an ambush just inside the border with Lebanon. The attackers disguised as Israeli soldiers were reportedly Palestinians who slipped across Israel's previously quiet northern frontier - raising the prospect of a new front in the current Middle East conflict."

The key words here are "The attackers disguised as Israeli soldiers".

They would, if captured, been treated as spies.

Nic's right, no good guys. The question is, what can WE do. Any ideas?



jaguar  Wednesday Mar 13 03:32 AM

Quote:
jag, there's surely enough blame on both sides. Pointing fingers and seeking revenge will never solve anything.
Firstly, there have been more Palestinian civilian deaths and israelii, so don't try that "legit targets bullshit". Secondly, why are Palestinian suicide bombers targeting civilians.

Try reading a little book called The Vietcong/minh Insurrection Manual for Underdeveloped Countries. Written one General No Nguyen Giap, Commander in Chief of the North Vietnamese army.

TO get 300 odd pages into one post, ill simplify a bit. They don't have good firepower, they don't have advanced technology, what they do have is unlimited anger, and people. You those assets. The NVA (north Vietnamese army) lost over 1 millions troops, over 3 million civilians died in the process of defeating not only the Americans but the French colonists that came before them, and the Japanese army during WW2.

How? But not giving up, you harass, assassinate and terrify them enough, they will give up. It works, the Palestinians are doing the same thing. Its the only tactic they *can* you, their country has been invaded, they wish to have their own state.

Instead of even vaguely attempting a peace process Sharon has deliberately set out to cause as much violence as possible, and then set utterly impossible conditions on a peace process. There is no real functioning palastinian police force anymore, and what is left is being shot at by the Israeli army - how the hell are they meant to do anything. Its easy to say there are no good guys in war, and both sides have blood, much blood on their hands, but it is Israel, primarily Israel, that is causing bloodshed and every Isreali citizen that dies can be blamed on Sharon.

Mainstream extremeism as we are seeing in Palastine is caused by desperation, remove that desperation and give palastine a functioning goverment and it would be posible to banish extremeism to where it belongs, the fringes.

and for the record, i don't remember anyhtign about calling for revenge.

and that pic....yea....fuck.
Quote:
Didn't September 11 and its aftermath teach you anything?
The irony! What it tought me is that if you tell the world to go fuck itself and turn your back, you get a knife in it. And if isreal thinks it can bash the palastinians into submission, they should look at history, and see how every attempt to crush the will of a desperate populace has backfired.


Nothing But Net  Wednesday Mar 13 04:05 AM

I don't have the Insurrection Manual

But I do have the Anarchists Cookbook, which is better!

Which one would you use on your fellow countrymen, since you're so pissed off?



Slight  Wednesday Mar 13 06:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
Firstly, there have been more Palestinian civilian deaths and israelii,...
It seems to me that an ethnic group such as the jewish/israelii people should have learned something from WWII where they were perscuted. I understand that this conflict was and still supposedly is over land but both sides see each other as different religions/races. That is not a productive view and this whole thing is now simply about revenge. I see it as gang warfare. I take the side of peace, which last I checked was the opposite of war (peace talks my ass).

Regarding the "graphic" photos (I interpreted the word graphic as in a diagram of how to string up a man. Gorey or Explict would have been better and should also apply to those mass nude photos) There is black stuff all over the front of the strung up man but not on his knees, which indicates that he was dragged face down through the streets. As his face is also blackened I would venture he is either dead or unconcious, because I know I would keep my face from being dragged along the ground.

The second picture is interesting because of the three people helping out the wounded are are in different attire. The orange vest seems to say: Peace worker, do not shoot. The green fatigues: Shoot me and I'll shoot you back.


jaguar  Wednesday Mar 13 06:40 AM

Don't worry, the irony of the jews commiting some of the worst systematic persecution since the holocost is not lost. Arafat himself was commenting the other day on who they were writing numbers on people, and how similar it was to the tatooing of jewish prisoners in concentration camps.



Nic Name  Wednesday Mar 13 08:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by NBN

Nic, from your article

"Israeli tanks and troops thrust into Palestinian refugee camps and took command of the streets in this key West Bank city today, killing 31 Palestinians in one of Israel's largest military operations ever in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Seven Israelis were killed, including six in an ambush just inside the border with Lebanon. The attackers disguised as Israeli soldiers were reportedly Palestinians who slipped across Israel's previously quiet northern frontier - raising the prospect of a new front in the current Middle East conflict."

The key words here are "The attackers disguised as Israeli soldiers".

They would, if captured, been treated as spies.

Nic's right, no good guys. The question is, what can WE do. Any ideas?
The 31 Palestinians killed by the Israeli army inside the refugee camp are not the "attackers disguised as Israeli soldiers" which was a separate incident in another place. Among the civilians killed by the Israeli army in yesterday's attacks was an Italian journalist for whose death Israel has apologized.

What can WE do? The USA, late yesterday, supported a UN resolution for an independent Palestinian State and an immediate ceasefire. This is the first time the USA has used its considerable influence in the UN to support the Palestinian cause for an independent State free of Israeli occupation. This may be the beginning of a new "peace" process. WE hope and pray.


Dido  Wednesday Mar 13 09:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nothing But Net
jag,I do notice a not so slight difference in the way each side prosecutes their war (perhaps it has eluded you):

The Israelis seem to be concentrating on legitimate targets or actual combatants. To do otherwise would attact even more international condemnation, probably from the US as well. Even they know better.
Legitimate targets like ambulances? Or was that bit of news not broadcasted in the US?

Legitimate targets like refugee camps, obviously necessitating the use of tanks and assoual helicopters?

Or perhaps something has eluded me?


dave  Wednesday Mar 13 10:10 AM

Yes, the Palestinian militants often hang out in refugee camps. I think even jaguar would admit that.

As far as Israel's atrocities, I think that they should be noted right alongside with the Palestinian militants'. I'm definitely not a big fan of Sharon, but I'm afraid of what Netanyahu will do if he gets re-elected.

The problem with the Palestinian militants, and this is an irrefutable <b>fact</b>, is that they <b>target civilians</b>. They revel in the death of innocent people who were just trying to have some good eatin' at Sbarro, just trying to have a good time at a Tel Aviv disco, just trying to go home. Many of these people have <b>no problem</b> with the Palestinians, but they're getting slaughtered anyway. Last year, a suicide bomber, dressed as an observant Jew, went to a French language <b>school</b> and blew himself up. A <b>school</b>.

How is Israel supposed to respond? "Oh, okay. Thanks for killing our civilians. Please don't do it again."

They can't exactly just go "Okay, well you got 21 of us, so we're gonna round up 21 innocent Palestinians of the same ages of the victims and blow them up." That would be awful and wrong. But it would also be the equivalent of what Palestinian militants are doing to Israel.

jag - I suggest you do some reading on the 1929 Hebron massacre before you start bitching about how Israel started it. Or maybe take a gander at the story of Exodus. Arab-Jewish tensions go back quite a ways.

As for your example of Vietnam - millions of people repressed and fighting a war with little supplies - okay. How about one Mohandas Gandhi?

As I have said before, <b>the Palestinians have the most to gain</b>. They have to bring people around to their side. You get more flies with sugar than you do with water...



BruteForce  Wednesday Mar 13 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dhamsaic
They have to bring people around to their side. You get more flies with sugar than you do with water...
Can you imagine the effectiveness of peaceful protests by the Palestenians instead of terrorism? There would be a palestenian state within 2 months. Oh well, guess they enjoy murder more.


jaguar  Wednesday Mar 13 10:40 PM

Thankyou bruteforce for displaying truely amazing feats of myopic and lack of knowledge. Even if it were possible to hold peaceful protests without intervention of Isreal, Isreal then has absoltuely no motivation to offer any concessions. On otp of that, thats a bit liek trying to clam a bee's nest while hitting it with a baseball bat, which is what isreal is doing, thn wondering why the get bitten.

Let me elaborate a little, make myself seem a tad more balanced, I'm sure most of us at least are aware than the shit should be evenly spread, no one is without blame, my outburst was more based around Israelís currant smoke-and-mirrors excuse for all out war than the history of the conflict.
Since the Yom Kippur war(yes, probably wrong spelling, Iím sure you know what Iím talking about), Syria, Jordan, Egypt et al have had no other outlet for their hatred of Israel than the Palestinians, provisions of hardware, money, support are not exactly unknown, the poor Palestinians are pawns on both sides.

A Palestinian state...*sighs* No one, wants a Palestinian state except the Palestinians, namely because parts of Jordan, Syria and other are actually what should be Palestine historically as much as the west back and Gaza strip are. Obviously these nations are not willing to give it, who would? But they expect Israel to. Of course those territories existed long before 1948, and 1967, but the fact remains.

Dham, Iím well aware of the history, Iím probably going to be studying it in very, very though depth in a couple of months, Iím already well aware of the long, long history on both sides. Yes militant do hang out in camps, because that is where some of the poorest and most dispossessed live, what you expect. As for ghandi, that required far more people, a special circumstances (weakening colonial government for example, and not being shot en-mass while demonstrating helps too). Civilians are not nice things to target, but still, I can understand why, they need to scare the shit out of Israel in their eyes before they will get anywhere, its probably true.

As for the US, the UN if you hadnít noticed can pass as many fucking motions, memorandums, statements and memos as it wants, its still only as powerful as its member states will let it be. The US now has good motivation tell Israel to get its shit together, but Iím not holding out for a magical UN army of fairies waving their wands solving the problem. International bodies get weaker the more member states they have, the UN has 190.


Personally I say demolish Jerusalem, abolish religion, and the world would be a far happier place =)

*ducks for cover*



Nothing But Net  Thursday Mar 14 01:06 AM

Riddle ---

Q: Why hasn't anyone been legally executed in Israel lately?

A: Bullets are cheaper than rope.

-03#



Chewbaccus  Thursday Mar 14 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dhamsaic
I don't think we'd nuke the Palestinians anyway. They attack Israel every day and we don't do shit.
From the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 3-14-02:

"As for last weekend's leak, under investigation at the Pentagon, of an internal report that the administration has not ruled out first-use of nuclear weapons, the president said he intended to keep 'all options on the table'..."

Like I've said already, it was a real nice planet we had once...

~mike


tw  Thursday Mar 14 02:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nothing But Net
The Israelis seem to be concentrating on legitimate targets or actual combatants. To do otherwise would attact even more international condemnation, probably from the US as well. Even they know better.
So I guess attacks on the ABC News crews was a legitimate target. So the recent shooting of in Italian newsman. I guess Palestinian police stations are legititmate targets. Or Arafats ocean side home. Arafats offices are legitmate. How about the destruction of the Palestinian Census Bureau - another nest of terrorism?

Israel Army targets whatever they feel makes a Palestinian government untenable. I stated this up front long ago. The way to drive intelligent people into terrorism is - well that is the strategy of Sharon. Then he can claim all Palestinians are terrorist. Can? He already tried to have the Palestinians added to George Jr's "Axis of Evil".

Israel army, under command of extremists, is a primary reason for all the violence. BBC daily reports of what the Israeli army attacks rarely have justifiable targets.

Do we burn down your house and your parents house because your brother committed a crime? That is a justifiable target to the Israeli army. Israel is a racist nation as their army demonstrates and as most every nation in the world has said. But Israel gets away with it because some are so misinformed as to say, "The Israelis seem to be concentrating on legitimate targets or actual combatants".


russotto  Thursday Mar 14 02:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tw

Do we burn down your house and your parents house because your brother committed a crime?
The crime in question, as tw so thoughtfully omits, is sucide bombing. The actual criminal is obviously beyond punishment. I don't agree with this sort of thing, but I think it's properly thought of as a desperation measure rather than a deliberate act of evil.


tw  Thursday Mar 14 02:18 PM

Re: Nic, from your article

Quote:
Originally posted by Nothing But Net
The question is, what can WE do. Any ideas?
Stop paying our biggest share of foreign aid to a welfare nation now run by a racist government. Demand Isreal leave foriegn lands. Demand that UN 242 and the Oslo Accords be the only basis of discussion for any Israeli government. That would kick the supports right out from under Prime Minister Dichead and bring back a government that can bring peace - anything that is not Likud.

Force the world to commit to what it previously called for or stop calling for things they will not commit to. Either they shit of get off the pot. A UN peace force to separate violent parties in Israel - with heavy weapons. Of course this force would have to enter like in the Balkans - the meanest dog in the neighborhood - because Israeli army extremists would seek the slightest reason for provokation knowing full well the lessons of Somolia and European fears of military solutions - ie Balkans before Clinton said 'enough' and took over.

Arafat has demonstrated that Palestinian violence can be stopped IF his government has governmental powers. But if Israeli tanks won't even let Arafat go to church in Bethlehem, then the PA has no governmental powers - as Prime Minister Dichead so shrewedly planned.

Since these are not viable alternatives, then the only alternative is to pray for more and worse violence. That is the only long term solution for peace. Deaths are not gruesome enough and in large enough numbers to make extremists look bad. Eventually the violence will become so bad that Israel will be forced to remove all occupation settlements in the West Bank and Gaza as up front requirements for settlements under the Oslo Accords.

Anyone who says Israel only attacks legititmate targets promotes terrorism. Such people forget the massacre of 5,000 Palestinian women and children. That legitimate target nonsense is the most irresponsible thing one can say since Prime Minister Dichead took power. That statement means one supports the Dichead but is not willing to say so.

The solution to a peace settlement up front requires the elimination of the racist Likud party. That means people must call Sharon what he really is - a mass murder many times over and the primary reason for all current Middle East violence.

You must give Sharon credit. He got the political situation he wanted. It is a masterful plan to get the Oslo Accords destroyed.



dave  Thursday Mar 14 02:21 PM

Here tw is mostly right, with the exception of "Israel army, under command of extremists, is a primary reason for all the violence." As I started previously, one can't just say the other is a primary cause. They both keep dumping fuel on the flames. <b>Both</b> are primary causes.

Everything else is spot-on though. Sharon doesn't want peace. This should be obvious to anyone that closely observes the conflict. The attacks on Palestinian police headquarters and the like are unwarranted.

The problem, like I've said before, is that extremist Palestinians continually give Israel the justification to strike. Not necessarily a police headquarters, but to <b>do something</b>. If there were no more suicide bombings/shootings, Israel would be hard pressed to blow up Arafat's Gaza compound.



dave  Thursday Mar 14 02:23 PM

tw - just curious - why "dichead" and not "dickhead"?



CharlieG  Thursday Mar 14 03:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tw

So I guess attacks on the ABC News crews was a legitimate target. ...snip
Michael Eisner sure seems to think so:p He's been targeting the News Division for years now

(Disclaimer - I do a lot of support for ABC News)


tw  Thursday Mar 14 11:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dhamsaic
tw - just curious - why "dichead" and not "dickhead"?
Just trying to keep my posts from becoming too long.

No. Better say - trying to keep my posts short.

Or maybe.....



dave  Friday Mar 15 02:06 AM



The eagle did land, correct?



sapienza  Saturday Mar 16 09:20 PM

This image
<img src="http://www.msnbc.com/c/0/68/286/10x7/twip_2002_0314_05.jpg">

fits in with the first one in this post.

"Vigilante justice
Masked Palestinians pull the body of Mahmoud Sabatin up the stairs of a building in the Bethlehem on March 14, intending to hang it from the roof. Sabatin, who was sentenced for collaborating with Israel by the Palestinian Authority, was shot dead by armed Palestinians not affiliated with Palestinian security."

sapienza



Sigh  Thursday Mar 21 04:51 AM

Aye, Sharon wants peace as demonstrated by his soldier's actions! Indeed

Bleh



classicman  Monday Dec 24 09:06 PM

bump

interesting read from the beginning.



TheMercenary  Wednesday Dec 26 12:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic Name View Post
This couldn't happen in the United States, could it?

Say, to someone accused of collaborating with the Taliban ... John Walker Lindh? hmmm ...

Lynchings in America
Lindh should be strung up, then shot.


Your reply here?

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