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   Undertoad  Wednesday Jun 19 12:56 PM

6/19/2002: Proud murderer



One of the blogs I visit regularly is Little Green Footballs, and from their comments section here comes this photo that I hadn't seen before (it predates IotD). It's from a Palestinian lynching of two Israelis, in Ramallah, in October 2000.

Quote:
...a mob of thousands danced a frenzied bacchanal of authentically orgiastic enthusiasm. What conceivable human emotions can move a mob of thousands of "ordinary" Palestinians to torture, gouge out the eyes, beat and then burn two utterly defenseless human beings? What was more incomprehensible that October morning in Ramallah, the (literally) elbows-deep-in-blood attacks by a desensitized people, or the grotesque celebrations of the Arab bystanders? Arab women as well as men could not contain the hideous ecstasy of their cruel involvement. What kind of human beings can commit the horrors the Palestinian mobs inflicted that terrible day upon Vadim Norjitz and Yossi Avrahami? While the answers to these questions are certainly complex, they have a great deal to do with understanding the distinctive barbarism of Palestinian terror groups.
Look at the joy in his face.


warch  Wednesday Jun 19 01:16 PM

People are immensely capable of amazing feats of cruelty and rationalization.



dave  Wednesday Jun 19 02:43 PM

I remember the day that this happened. October 12, 2000. The picture was on MSNBC's site that day and still remains in their "conflict perspective" section. It's pretty awful that some people can take joy in the death of others.

Here's another one that I like.



This is of a mother celebrating with her son. He's about to go on a suicide mission - an attack on some Israeli soldiers that are guarding a settlement. They both know that he's going to die, but they're rejoicing in the likelihood that he'll be able to take out a soldier or two before they get him. Indeed, he and another suicide gunman managed to kill two Israeli soldiers before they were shot dead.

Now... since she had knowledge of the crime that was going to be committed and did nothing to stop it, should Israel or the Palestinian Authority lock her up? I say "yes".



Zoomtown  Wednesday Jun 19 02:58 PM

just a question are the people behind the guy in the window the hanging israelis? And are the Israelies civillins....good god....they all need to be shot! the extremists.



Bitman  Wednesday Jun 19 05:48 PM

Re: 6/19/2002: Proud murderer

Quote:
Originally quoted by Undertoad
What kind of human beings can commit the horrors the Palestinian mobs inflicted that terrible day upon Vadim Norjitz and Yossi Avrahami?
This type of question is starting to irritate me, because the asker implies "whatever the answer, make sure it doesn't include me." Well bad news, pal, you're the kind of person you're looking for. You're capable of murdering people. You're capable of hanging blacks from a tree. You're capable of shoving busloads of Jews into an oven.

Note that I'm just using "you" for impact, I'm including myself as well. Fortunately, my beliefs are not being questioned at gunpoint, so I don't feel any particular need for violence.


Scred  Wednesday Jun 19 08:03 PM

Great Pic. Okay, horrible pic.



add this little tidbit to the fray. i recall some postings the other day about flechettes and how horrible they were and all that. well, once again horror is easily magnified by our friends the palestinians. seems they like to add rat poison to the nails and rust mix, just to make sure those that are only slightly injured won't be able to make a recovery. oh, and throw in an STD just to liven things up.


http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/2002/06/061802.html



bluebomber  Thursday Jun 20 09:23 AM

not that it makes it right, but...

Quote:
Originally posted by dhamsaic
This is of a mother celebrating with her son. He's about to go on a suicide mission - an attack on some Israeli soldiers that are guarding a settlement. They both know that he's going to die, but they're rejoicing in the likelihood that he'll be able to take out a soldier or two before they get him. Indeed, he and another suicide gunman managed to kill two Israeli soldiers before they were shot dead.

Now... since she had knowledge of the crime that was going to be committed and did nothing to stop it, should Israel or the Palestinian Authority lock her up? I say "yes".
Not that I support the cause, but at least this guy is attacking a military target of what could (more or less) reasonably be called an occupying army. Israeli soldiers are at least in a position to defend themselves against such an attack. It is certainly a tragedy that two soldiers had to die. It is also fortunate that the soldiers that were wounded are not loaded up with shrapnel, rocks, rat poison, etc. Also, given that they were prepared for combat, the psychological trauma of such a situation seems like it would be somewhat less severe than being on a bus that was bombed.

I do agree that the joy in the woman's face in sending her son off to die is disturbing.


jaguar  Thursday Jun 20 09:46 PM

Quote:
they have a great deal to do with understanding the distinctive barbarism of Palestinian terror groups.
Thankyou bitman. It seems you've forgetten the experiemnts done in the 50s into human behavoius where they got ordinary americans to apply hideosly painful electric shocks and eventully killed (they used actos that could not be seen, the participants did not know this) complete strangers for no reason. This so soon after people liek you were saying similar things baout Nazi Germany 'how could they DO that?!'.


elSicomoro  Thursday Jun 20 10:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
Thankyou bitman. It seems you've forgetten the experiemnts done in the 50s into human behavoius where they got ordinary americans to apply hideosly painful electric shocks and eventully killed (they used actos that could not be seen, the participants did not know this) complete strangers for no reason.
Stanley Milgram, 1961-62, Yale University.

(Sorry...the psychology major came out in me.)


dave  Friday Jun 21 12:46 AM

jag, how is it that you wrote all that and still said absolutely <b>nothing</b> about what we're talking about?



jaguar  Friday Jun 21 01:36 AM

Try the lament at the top of this thread:

Quote:
hat conceivable human emotions can move a mob of thousands of "ordinary" Palestinians to torture, gouge out the eyes, beat and then burn two utterly defenseless human beings?
The point is that its not so inconceveable at all, in fact its happened, more than once and will continute to this case is no different from any other.

Thanks syc, i'd forgotten the name of it and i was 10 years off, crap. My papers on it have been lost in piles of revision notes.

Scred, the guy was HIV positive, not the bomb, and the rat poisen was aparantly ineffective, not to mention the fact that both sides are using weapons to maxamise human casualties, whats your point?


Bitman  Friday Jun 21 09:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
Thankyou bitman. It seems you've forgetten the experiemnts
Who's forgotten what? You just repeated my point, only with real data to back it up. It's easy for us to torture each other (fun, too) but the reporter couldn't figure this out.


MaggieL  Friday Jun 21 11:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar

Thankyou bitman. It seems you've forgetten the experiemnts done in the 50s into human behavoius where they got ordinary americans to apply hideosly painful electric shocks and eventully killed...This so soon after people liek you were saying similar things baout Nazi Germany 'how could they DO that?!'.
But Jag, since the experiment happened in the early 1960's, the events of WWII were by then irrelevant history...does that argument sound familar? ;-) And since the experiments happened four decades ago, they're probably not relevant to today's world either.

"Things have changed in the last 50 years, hate to break it to you." :-)

Seriously, though, it would be interesting indeed to see these experiments repeated today...I bet you wouldn't get the 65% response of the 1961 experiment. It would especially be interesting to repeat them in different cultures. I doubt you'd get the same result in , say, Iraq or China, that you'd get in Switzerland.

Oh, and just for accuracy's sake; I've read many accounts of these experiments, but never heard anyone say the subjects thought the apparent subject were killed. I think you're overboard on that one.


elSicomoro  Saturday Jun 22 12:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL
But Jag, since the experiment happened in the early 1960's, the events of WWII were by then irrelevant history...does that argument sound familar?
Actually, the experiment in question was inspired by the Nuremberg trials, although there was a 15-year gap...perhaps Milgram was in deep thought.

Quote:
And since the experiments happened four decades ago, they're probably not relevant to today's world either...Seriously, though, it would be interesting indeed to see these experiments repeated today...I bet you wouldn't get the 65% response of the 1961 experiment. It would especially be interesting to repeat them in different cultures. I doubt you'd get the same result in , say, Iraq or China, that you'd get in Switzerland.
Of course, the chances of them being repeated in this country are nil.

The experiment was repeated in several countries over the course of 25 years in Europe, South Africa, and Australia. That percentage hit 85% in Germany.

I have to disagree with you on the response rate though...I might have agreed with you pre-9/11, but I think today in the US, you could easily hit that 65% marker.

I think the heart of that experiment is the "responsibility" factor. The experimenter took responsibility for the actions of the "teacher," thereby reducing the dissonance that one might feel in giving someone a 450 volt jolt. It's practically carte blanche. Given that we still seem to have a large section of our society that doesn't like to take the blame for their actions, it's a perfect fit.

Quote:
Oh, and just for accuracy's sake; I've read many accounts of these experiments, but never heard anyone say the subjects thought the apparent subject were killed. I think you're overboard on that one.
The last two switches were simply marked "XXX" (435 and 450 volts). Some accounts refer to them as "lethal shocks."

Although, the reaction of one Fred Prozi (a "teacher" in one of the experiments) could lend credibility to Jag's statement.


jaguar  Saturday Jun 22 07:35 PM

Thanks for saving my breath syc - human nature doesn't really change. politics do.



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