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     Saturday Apr 7 12:23 PM



PETA is taking a new approach and trying to get youngsters to stop drinking milk. To that end, they spoke to a middle school the other week, and have come out with a set of trading cards of weird and nasty things you can expect from drinking milk.



  Saturday Apr 7 10:06 PM

I'm convinced that PETA have to make up the majority of crack cocaine consumers.

Mike



  Monday Apr 9 08:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Chewbaccus
I'm convinced that PETA have to make up the majority of crack cocaine consumers.

Mike
Pardon my ignorance here, but who/what is PETA?


  Monday Apr 9 11:35 AM

PETA are the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

They're the guys that rose all the fuss about the CBS airing the contestants killing & eating rats, chickens, and other such animals on "Survivor".

They're complete morons. There are organizations to stop poverty, disease, hunger, opression, and other such evils of the world, and they're wasting their time on stopping the practice of milking cows. I have no sympathy for those people.

Mike



  Monday Apr 9 04:21 PM

PETA

This brings to mind an idea I had earlier. Remember, in Roman times, proscription lists? The basic idea is that the government puts your name on a widely publicized list, and you can be killed by any citizen without fear of punishment. I think that these PETA idiots shoud go on a list like this. Interesting side note, my health teacher, who can't even spell his name, has tried to convince us that milk is poison. Then he wants us to take him seriously when he speaks about drugs and the like. I love fucking America, man.

I must admit, though, their demonstrations about skin/leather/fur are quite interesting. On the other hand, rest assured that if someone spraypaints my leather jacket, I will bury them with it.



  Monday Apr 9 05:47 PM

Kick ass, man, and take names.

Milk may not be the perfect food but there's nothing wrong with it. 1% milk is pretty much the exact combination of protein, carbohydrates, and fat that you're supposed to eat. Plus, if these PETA idiots take away the proteins from dairy, they probably want eggs too, and of course all meat, and pretty soon it's gonna be hard to get enough protein in yer diet.



  Tuesday Apr 10 02:24 PM

Protein

Peanuts are gonna become one hell of a commodity.

In all seriousness, though. People are too damn self-righteous to realize that we are animals. We need to eat meat, which means we need to kill animals. I'm all for the ethical treatment of animals, but I don't think that being milked once daily is unethical in the least. And what about the ethical treatment of other people while we're at it? There are wars going on, people are killing each other, people are starving, people are freezing on the streets of New York and Chicago, in our own back yards, so to speak, and apparently a cow living a sedentary lifestyle, getting fed well, getting milk once a day, and eventually getting converted into fine meat products is more of an outrage.

This whole thing reminds me of a quote from Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle

This is parphrased by the way, but

Quote:
God created everything there is from mud. And some of the mud, which would become man, spoke to God. The mud said "God, what is the purpouse of all this?" and God said "Everything needs a purpouse?". Man said "Of course", then God told man "Then it's your job to figure out why I did all this, and let me know."
It's basically that people take themselves, and everything around them, too damn seriously. We aren't champions of the earth, menat to rise above the animals and protect them. We're animals too, and we need to either learn to live with everything on the earth, and with everything that must go on on the earth (including death), or get out.

--Steve


  Tuesday Apr 10 05:34 PM

I'm glad that Vonnegut wrote the Almighty to sound like the "Cap'n"*, Steve.

* - inside joke as to our VB teacher

~Mike



  Tuesday Apr 10 08:43 PM

the cap'n

Just for the record, because you don't all enjoy our visual Basic 'experience', the Cap'n is what Mike (Chew) and I call our teacher, who is an excellent programmer, and an intelligent guy, but is flakier than your average pastry. He has a habit of simply giving us a problem, and the resources to learn what we need to to solve it. He does *not* teach. I, Mike, and a few others thrive in this sort of environment; everyone else struggles, and it jades them to the whole concept of programming. Which I guess is why they chose this class as a pre-requisite for C++, to weed out the word processors and other (l)users and only allow those who can develop coding skill carry on to the more complex, but far more powerful, language.

Personally, I think that this is the way programming should be taught, as a career. This is a field where things will(!) change constantly, and you must be willing and able to teach yourself what you need to know in order to get by. Unfortunately, most people are used to the standard regurgitation method of teaching. You know it; teacher tells you soemthing, and you repeat it until you can spit it back out on command. Programming requires a higher level of thought than this, as do the complex mathematics and sciences, and it's important to develop this talent as early as possible.

Now that I've attacked every teacher in the building (thank the gods I'm not posting froms chool right now), I should sign off

--Steve



  Wednesday Apr 11 01:24 AM

I agree.

I went through CS in 1985 when college CS was just getting started. The brutal weed-out is always expected in programming. It's just necessary. They do it a lot worse in college pre-med courses; in CS it's "You aren't capable of this" while in pre-med it's "You can't HANDLE this". People are brutalized.

That said, it IS good to get a walk through certain algorithms when you're seeing them for the very first time. So I hope he's at least doing that.



  Wednesday Apr 11 11:32 AM

He just recently installed Altiris Vision User to that effect. The obvious effect being that he can set a demo mode to show us his computer screen and walk the class through new stuff. The real reason is because a lot of us are downloading game demos and other such things and they're trying to put a leash on us. "Us" being the coders and programmers.

Naturally, the programmers are going first. We're the only ones in the school that show a streak of independence. The Comp. Apps. kids are repressed from day one. Steve, one day we must tell the tale of Cini-Mini in freshman year.

What I don't like about this (and I just filled out a survey to the fact) is that it's like giving a recovering alcoholic a Guinness. This is the school's way of imposing the "classic" form of education on those that have been seeing and thriving another way. We're being force-addicted to the classic form again, then upon graduation, we'll be yanked off it and be forced to go cold turkey.

It's like they're prepping us for a life eerily similar to "Office Space".

~Mike



  Wednesday Apr 11 02:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Violine
Pardon my ignorance here, but who/what is PETA?
[/b]
The beef industry's favorite folks: <b>P</b>eople for the <b>E</b>ating of <b>T</b>asty <b>A</b>nimals.

Or do you mean their more humor-impaired counterparts?
Z


  Wednesday Apr 11 03:16 PM

Re: Protein

Quote:
Originally posted by alphageek31337
In all seriousness, though. People are too damn self-righteous to realize that we are animals. We need to eat meat, which means we need to kill animals.
Well, we don't actually <b>need</b> to get meat. What humans need is protein. And, while it is, indeed, possible to get all of the protein needed (meaning: the correct combination of amino acids) from purely non-meat and non-dairy sources, it's much easier for us to get the same combination by eating meat.

Just look inside your mouths. See those canine teeth in front (aka "eyeteeth")? Those are the mark of a predator- they exist purely to tear into meat; there's no reason for a purely herbivorous animal to have canine teeth. We're omnivorous- meaning that we're <b>designed</b>, more or less, to eat meat.

Not in copious amounts, mind you- vegetables, grains, etc. should make up the bulk of food a human consumes. But, for a concentrated protein wallup, meat is certainly the easiest source for an omnivore like us.

Plus, you get all sorts of fun diseases from non-Kosher stuff,
Z


  Wednesday Apr 11 03:42 PM

Re: Re: Protein

Quote:
Plus, you get all sorts of fun diseases from non-Kosher stuff
[/b]
This would be a good time for my tirade on devolution. We're all beocming weaker as a species. This fits in because when people started preferring cooked meat to raw meat, we actually lost strength in our stomach acids and other parts of the digestive system, and now we need to eat the food cooked. That doesn't really matter, but feast your ears on this one: the common cold can kill a man now. A mutant strain of the virus that causes the common cold is now deadly. And this mutation would, probably, have never happened except that people have a bad habit of assaulting their bodies with drugs and other medicines anytime they get a tickle in their throats. Their immune systems grow weaker from lack of use, and all the germs grow stronger through evolution, and eventually evolve to be antibiotic-resistant (I actually grew an amoxycillin-resistant strain of bacteria in 5th grade, but that's a whole other story). These resistant bugs can't be stopped by medicine, but, normally, our immune system would have an imprint of the bug from fighting strains of it before. BUT (and this but is bigger than Oprah Whinfrey's after a tub of Haagen-Daz) the immune system never had to fight it before, and now can't. Now I'm not advising that we stop using drugs to treat illnesses, but we ought to stop using them to treat illnesses our bodies can fight. Between that, and allowing genetic deformations to stay in the gene pool, and be passed on to children, we are becoming a weaker species.

This has been quite a good forum for me

Steve


elSicomoro  Wednesday Apr 11 06:18 PM

I think I'll go to a PETA protest wearing a real fur coat, drinking some milk, and munching on a cheesesteak.



  Thursday Apr 12 12:20 AM

I'll meet you there with a legion of vendors doling out cheesesteaks, burgers, milkshakes, and wearing Kevlar.

~Mike



  Thursday Apr 12 08:52 AM

My wife was a fine arts major in college (obviously she's now a programmer/analyst) and loves to tell about one poser chick in the art school at Syracuse. The girl would stomp around campus in heavy leather boots and a "Meat is Murder" patch on her jeans. She was definitely not trying to be ironic. That, to me, defines the animal rights movement.

I'm no fan of industrial style farming, mainly because my roots are in family farming and I recognize what is lost when the manager/worker isn't the owner. If you ever get a chance to work on a production line... don't, unless you really need the paycheck. Animals should be well taken care of and they will be if your goal is producing healthy food.

This thread reminds me of a couple good red neck bumper stickers People Eating Tasty Animals and EARTH FIRST! we'll ruin the rest later.

(the following not for weak stomachs)

Alphageek,In my indestructable youth, I shared an apartment, in Scranton, with five other guys and there was a constant round of "You don't have the cojones to...". Well, at one point, we had a lot of raw venison in the fridge and some of it was marinating in speidie sauce (local food cooked on a skewer like a kabob but just meat, lamb being the best, vinegar, oil, and Italian spices) So I ate a cube of the marinated venison. It was absolutely delicious! After that, we ate a lot of raw speidie meat, like a pack of wolves. Nobody got sick, but that was pretty stupid. Oh, did I mention there was alcohol involved, a lot of alcohol... Surviving that period is my personal proof for the existence of a benign greater power. I've only been on an antibiotic twice in my life and I agree with your assessment that the immune system has to be tested to function. I was raised on raw cows milk which is full of microbial life which many folks think inevitably leads to illness. I've done barnyard butchering, never wearing gloves and shoveled a lot of crap. Both of these activities could potentially impact an uninitiated immune system.



  Thursday Apr 12 09:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tony Shepps
I agree.

I went through CS in 1985 when college CS was just getting started. The brutal weed-out is always expected in programming. It's just necessary. They do it a lot worse in college pre-med courses; in CS it's "You aren't capable of this" while in pre-med it's "You can't HANDLE this". People are brutalized.
Err, my father went through CS when college CS was just starting -- his degree is mathematics with a concentration in computer science. That was circa 1966.

The weedout at University of Maryland College Park involved a class where you did all your programming in something called 'CF Pascal'. CF was for "Character and File" -- those were the only two types you had available. No steenking integers, no strings, no arrays, just character and file. The class also involved proving programs correct, which is where I learned that attempting to prove a program correct is pointless because the proof is more error-prone than the program... I don't think the professor appreciated that insight :-).

(hmm, what happened to milk?)



  Thursday Apr 12 10:04 AM

Re: Re: Re: Protein

Quote:
Originally posted by alphageek31337

man now. A mutant strain of the virus that causes the common cold is now deadly. And this mutation would, probably, have never happened except that people have a bad habit of assaulting their bodies with drugs and other medicines anytime they get a tickle in their throats.

Uhh, no. Those drugs don't affect the cold virus, so they cannot be responsible for its evolution. Overuse of antibiotics is a bad thing for other reasons, but not for mutating the common cold.

However, one genius managed to graft the business end of Ebola into a cold virus. Supposedly a weakened cold virus which couldn't spread, and done under serious containment, but still...

[quote]
fight it before, and now can't. Now I'm not advising that we stop using drugs to treat illnesses, but we ought to stop using them to treat illnesses our bodies can fight. Between that, and allowing genetic deformations to stay in the gene pool, and be passed on to children, we are becoming a weaker species.
[quote]

True, but I'm not about to sterilize myself over my 20/400 eyesight. What we need is a way to remove these genetic deformations at the source. Alas, I suspect enough regulations will be placed on human gene research that it won't happen within my lifetime.
/QUOTE]


elSicomoro  Thursday Apr 12 03:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Chewbaccus
I'll meet you there with a legion of vendors doling out cheesesteaks, burgers, milkshakes, and wearing Kevlar.
I'll need some of that Kevlar, Mike.

This PETA thing reminds me of something...when I was previously engaged to a woman in Chicago, I would go up and visit her regularly. While I was up there, we would do a lot of driving. Mimi and I would then proceed to count something that seemed to stick out on that particular weekend. For example, we would see a lot of check cashing places, and proceed to count them from Friday-Sunday. One weekend, we noticed a TON of people wearing fur coats (Whether they were fake or real I couldn't tell ya.). The number we noticed got rather high. Granted, it was an awfully cold weekend--in the teens with that trademark wind.

PETA has a right to protest all they like, but I suspect they may be delusional at times.

I eat meat because I enjoy the taste, and it contains many vitamins and nutrients that are good for my body. I drink milk and eat dairy products for the same reason. I have no religious provisions preventing me from eating these products. (What would I do without pork roll? PORK ROLL?! I'd lose my mind!) Furthermore, with the whole "They suffer" mentality, I figure it to be survival of the fittest. Who knows? Maybe there will be a being that wants to eat us someday. Not to mention, if all the products of the animal are used to their capacity, then I have no real problem with it.

My $.05...


  Thursday Apr 12 05:26 PM

Re: Re: Re: Protein

Quote:
Originally posted by alphageek31337
This would be a good time for my tirade on devolution. We're all beocming weaker as a species.
While I don't know how much I'd agree with the assesment you make above, it has been demonstrated emperically that there are some instances in which an increasingly antiseptic and disease-free environment are <b>harmful</b> to our health. Take various types of irritable bowel disease (yes, I know, please). Diseases of this sort- Crohn's is one of the best-known- aren't common in the industrialized world, but neither are they exceedingly rare. They <b>are</b> exceedingly rare in parts of the world where cleanliness isn't as common.

It has also been suggested in studies that parental overcleanliness can actually end up harming an infant by reducing its chances of developing resistance to the various allergens and disease-causing bacteria/viruses which are normally in the environment.

Whether or not you can call this devolution is debatable, but there you have it.

Take it as you will,
Z


  Thursday Apr 12 06:43 PM

I think I recall hearing that the rise in asthma problems has been attributed to cleaner environments.



elSicomoro  Thursday Apr 12 09:48 PM

I've heard on occasion that the United States is TOO clean. The anti-bacterial antiseptic kick going on here is actually leaving us susceptible to new strains of everything. People take an antibiotic for a chill these days...ridiculous.



  Thursday Apr 12 11:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by russotto

The class also involved proving programs correct, which is where I learned that attempting to prove a program correct is pointless because the proof is more error-prone than the program... I don't think the professor appreciated that insight :-).

(hmm, what happened to milk?)
[/b]
Just for curiousity's sake, how do you go about proving a program correct? The logical way is to compile it, run it, and see that it does what it's supposed to, but that's pretty much useless, educationally.


  Wednesday Apr 18 09:59 AM

Meat, Milk and Animal rights

I think that the point behind Milk being an objectionable substance is not that it is poisonous but because farms treat the cows badly when they farm them. Though I do think that milk farming is less objectionable in than the practices used for farming other animals. It is not that the meat is bad or the milk is bad ... it is that under current farming practices with big business making big bucks ofen leads to the inhumane and downright cruel treatment of animals. If you want to eat animals then fine but I don't think we need to torture them first and being a vegetarian means that I am no longer condoning the torture of animals just as I wouldn't want any part in the torture of human beings.

If you want the facts as to why peta objects to milk then have a look at:
http://www.goveg.com/rfact8.html



  Wednesday Apr 18 01:16 PM

leedee, I'm glad you had the intestinal fortitude to jump in here, since this threads balance of opinion leans decidedly in the other direction. Welcome aboard! I'll follow your link but remember I grew up in farm country so my opinions may not be "paletable". (sp?)



  Wednesday Apr 18 03:00 PM

I'll say

Welcome, and jump right in, and stick around a while. But if Griff's message is fair warning then here's the first bold attack. Nothing personal but the link you gave us has a section entitled "vegetarian cats and dogs" which is the foulest thing I've ever seen on a website.

Cats and dogs are natural meat-eaters. I don't give a rat's ass if they think they have worked out all the additives that these animals need to survive.

The page is full of incorrect information and very subjective statements tossed around like facts. You know what the dog biscuit recipe is? For a dog, nutritionally, it's total crap disguised with garlic powder to be something they'll enjoy.

Dogs are, nutritionally speaking, miles away from humans. A dog will eat vegetables in the wild? Only under three conditions that I know. One, as shredded material in the stomach of the beast they are consuming. If someone brings down a wildebeest, the dogs are happy to eat everything that's left over after the real predators have had their meal. That will include the stomach and intestines with partially-digested vegetables. They particularly enjoy the bones and much of their nutritional needs are solved by eating raw bones and bone marrow.

Two, dogs will eat vegetables out of desperation. And three, dogs will eat grass and such for medicinal purposes. It helps them vomit if they need to do that.

The real truth is, if you want to mimic dogs' natural diet, buy whole chickens, cut off the breast and thigh meat and feed the rest, bones and neck and all, to the dog. But if you lack the fortitude to nip into the meat yourself, just buy quality commercial dog food. It's largely made from the waste products of other meat production anyway. The cheap stuff is more like the "dog biscuit", crap disguised so they will eat it.



  Wednesday Apr 18 03:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
I've heard on occasion that the United States is TOO clean. The anti-bacterial antiseptic kick going on here is actually leaving us susceptible to new strains of everything. People take an antibiotic for a chill these days...ridiculous.
Indeed, overuse of antibiotics- and <b>especially</b> the use of these antibiotics at either subtherapeutic levels on bacterial infections or on viral infections (which are not helped by antibiotics)- is thought to be the #1 culprit in the development of many strains of disease-causing bacteria which are resistant to common antibiotic medications. Hence the resurgence of turbuculosis and more virulent strains of staph (aka "flesh-eating bacteria").

It's tons of fun,
Z


  Wednesday Apr 18 03:47 PM

Re: I'll say

Quote:
Originally posted by Dagnabit
Welcome, and jump right in, and stick around a while. But if Griff's message is fair warning then here's the first bold attack. Nothing personal but the link you gave us has a section entitled "vegetarian cats and dogs" which is the foulest thing I've ever seen on a website.

Cats and dogs are natural meat-eaters. I don't give a rat's ass if they think they have worked out all the additives that these animals need to survive.
As for cats, they are perhaps nature's #1 carnivores. Making cats eat a vegetarian or vegan diet is little short of torture, and all but assures that the animal will be significantly malnourished.

Of course, cats don't often chase cans of Friskies in the wild either,
Z


  Wednesday Apr 18 10:34 PM

Why did the chicken cross the road?

..because it knew riding in a truck was dangerous. One of our local channels showed an accident involving a jacknifed chicken truck. The camera zoomed in and there were some unmoving, probably dead, chickens. This apparently upset the anchorpersons, who immediately began to reassure themselves that some of these chickens must be just stunned.

Now, considering that a 'safe trip' for these chickens meant getting their necks broken or heads chopped off at their destination, I find it just a little hard to shed too many tears about them perishing in a traffic accident. As a matter of fact, the chickens who didn't make it score a minor victory in that they will probably not end up as human food (although they might be ground into animal feed).

I appreciate the need to minimize animal suffering. This is one of the requirements of kosher killing. However, there is no point at being at the top of the food chain if you can't have a burger. To quote Mel Brooks "It's good to be the king".



  Friday Apr 27 08:08 PM

Here do msot new virus/bacteria strains develop???
Hospitals.
WHere are the most antibiotics used?
Hospitals.
'Nuff said.



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