Undertoad Monday Aug 26 03:22 PM
8/26/2002 extra: Palestinian youth
LGF reports that the Palestinian Journalists Union has put up a new rule for journalists in their region: it is now prohibited to take any pictures of Palestinian children carrying weapons or taking part in activities by militant groups. The blue text is from an Israeli newspaper:
Nic Name Monday Aug 26 03:25 PM
Undertoad Monday Aug 26 03:27 PM
That one was taken before the ban. I would credit it but I don't remember where I got it. Probably also from that LGF.
Nic Name Monday Aug 26 03:30 PM
I was asking about the source of the quote, rather than the credit for the photographer.
Undertoad Monday Aug 26 04:38 PM
It's all mapped out at the link I provided.
juju Monday Aug 26 04:41 PM
UT was also kind enough to provide some of his own words. Thanks, UT!
Undertoad Monday Aug 26 04:46 PM
Undertoad Monday Aug 26 04:49 PM
Oh, now I get it Nic... no, referring to the text below the photo, I don't have the details.
juju Monday Aug 26 04:49 PM
You know.. you put the story in your own words.
Nic Name Monday Aug 26 06:05 PM
ummm ... made it up.
Nic Name Monday Aug 26 06:27 PM
I read it on the IDF website.
I found a source for UT's explanation of the demonstration.
Undertoad Monday Aug 26 06:39 PM
Thanks man. I found my source for the pic which was also LGF:
Nic Name Monday Aug 26 11:52 PM
I don't know whether it's true or not that this was organized by Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement, or that it was in support of Saddam Hussein. It might be true. It might be propaganda.
jaguar Tuesday Aug 27 12:23 AM
How cute! Matching guns.
I thought kids wielding automatic weapons was a human right?
unless its overseas, in which case its child abuse.
juju Tuesday Aug 27 12:29 AM
OMG, Slashdot has just gotten terrible! One headline today reads: "Is Red Hat the Microsoft of Linux?" I feel dirty every time I go there.
dave Tuesday Aug 27 01:36 AM
No offense Jag, but you're deliberately taking one argument and twisting it into another. For all the time you spend bitching about how Maggie does this to you, you seem to do it enough yourself.
jaguar Tuesday Aug 27 04:05 AM
Yea i know but the irony of them both having the same gun and being the same age, yet one is a poster boy and the other one is a victim of child abuse was just too much.
juju Tuesday Aug 27 04:23 AM
NateXLH1000 Tuesday Aug 27 09:12 AM
posterboy vs. abused
Perhaps we should just interpret the pictures as product endorsements?
NateXLH1000 Tuesday Aug 27 09:17 AM
Sorry, just saw its magazine now.
MaggieL Tuesday Aug 27 11:07 AM
Double T Tuesday Aug 27 12:37 PM
In support of MaggieL's statement, a little known fact about the fighting going on in the Middle East is that 70% of the Al-Qaida fighters in Afghanistan were under the age of 18. Where do I get this information from? Im enlisted into the United States Navy part of the Rosevelt fleet. Onboard we had Marines who recalled skirmishes in which numerious teenagers fired live rounds with intent to do harm (meaning aimed at the Marines).
jaguar Tuesday Aug 27 05:41 PM
Who's the other one aiming at then? Its not exactly something you'd use for deer hunting. I'm sure they taught him how to shoot too, they wouldn't give such an expensive weapon to a kid without training afterall.
BrianR Tuesday Aug 27 05:51 PM
Welcome Double T
I'm also a Navy man...recently retired and wishing I weren't.
warch Tuesday Aug 27 06:22 PM
Nic Name Tuesday Aug 27 08:08 PM
The Israeli media machine thinks it is a good idea to use these images, though.
MaggieL Tuesday Aug 27 08:14 PM
Not to worry, if he accidently blows away one of his friends, instant martyr, and they'll say an Israeli soldier did it. When you get them by stealing them from the Israelis, M-16's aren't all that expensive. Most of his buddies do seem to have AK-47s, though. Maybe after the photo he had to give it back.
Undertoad Tuesday Aug 27 08:40 PM
They didn't have to steal the F-16s. The US provided them as a part of Oslo, to establish a Palestinian security force.
Nic Name Tuesday Aug 27 08:48 PM
Undertoad Tuesday Aug 27 10:11 PM
M, F, what's the difference.
jaguar Wednesday Aug 28 04:20 AM
Nic Name Wednesday Aug 28 08:46 AM
jaguar Wednesday Aug 28 08:52 AM
'zactly Nic. I'm glad you're not damning yourself to hell and supporting genocide by suggesting that kids don't have the right to carry military hardware in school
Griff Wednesday Aug 28 10:00 AM
I'm no fan of the imperialist TR but you guys may not realize how common it was for American kids to bring rifles to school up through the sixties. Rifle teams were very common, yet shootings were not. A couple years ago a girl from our neighboring school district was the national target shooting champion for her age group. Like kids in other activities she wanted to appear in her yearbook doing her thing. There was a shitstorm between the victim disarmament crowd and the right wing nuts,...not pretty. I don't think its a good idea to carry at school anymore but thats more about Americas public school culture than firearms.
Double T Wednesday Aug 28 12:43 PM
"The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace inthe world... The first step -- in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come -- is to teach MEN to shoot!"
Nic Name Wednesday Aug 28 12:59 PM
Well, I read it again and he was clearly advocating teaching MEN to shoot when they are SCHOOLBOYS.
juju Wednesday Aug 28 03:45 PM
But Theodore Roosevelt hasn't seen what we've seen. Times change. For many people, Colombine and the other high school massacres changed everything.
dave Wednesday Aug 28 04:26 PM
Columbine and other massacres certainly made up <b>my</b> mind.
Griff Wednesday Aug 28 05:08 PM
I hereby endorse dh for President!
warch Wednesday Aug 28 05:55 PM
MaggieL Wednesday Aug 28 06:05 PM
When Nigerian student Peter Odighizuwa killed the dean of the Appalachian School of Law (which he'd just flunked out of), along with another professor and a student, Mikael Gross and Tracy Bridges had to go fetch their handguns from their cars before they could apprehend him.
Of 280 news stories found in a Nexus-Lexis search, exactly <b>four</b> mentioned the role of legal firearms in stopping Odighizuwa.
MaggieL Wednesday Aug 28 06:33 PM
Your theory was that an M-16 was too expensive to give to a child without proper training...I pointed out that the picture made clear that the kid had no training (worthy of the name) in safe firearems handling, and that it was almost certain that the M-16 wasn't purchased by the Palestinians. If *I* wanted an M-16, I'd have to plunk down something in excess of a kilobuck for one, properly neutered for civilian use. But the mini-martyr in the picture apparently got his because I helped pay for it, in the hopes of fostering Middle-East peace through Palestinian empowerment.
The photos also made clear that his training consisted mostly of indoctrination. The picture from "a-human-right" that you've been waving around as evidence of sick American culture <b>advocated</b> firearms training. You'd <b>just</b> finished spreading your <i>own</i> brand of FUD proclaiming your fear that if the people around you were armed, that they probably <i>wouldn't</i> have proper training.
Don't you get dizzy chasing your tail like that? Maybe <i>that's</i> where that smell is coming from, you're crossing your own wake turbulance.
jaguar Thursday Aug 29 12:30 AM
As for kids carrying guns, or even some teachers for that matter. Spend a day in an average high school then think about it for a bit. Schooyard fights are all in fun till someone has a 15cm wide hole in their chest.
MaggieL Thursday Aug 29 12:57 AM
As I pointed out, I don't advocate "arming schoolchildren"; they're not old enough to carry legally, or even posess except under adult supervision.
Adult teachers is another matter entirely.
High school students are old enough to learn the fundamentals of firearms safety, which used to be taught routinely in many schools as an elective, back in the days when Driver Ed was an elective too. My college had a range and a rifle team; I think the prohibitionists have managed to get it shut down by now.
And schoolyard fights are *not* "all in fun". I spent three years in an American inner-city high school during the late 1960's. The idea that fights among schoolkids can be dismissed and trivialized is one of the attitudes that <i>fosters</i> sudden outbreaks of violence.
jaguar Thursday Aug 29 01:46 AM
BruteForce Thursday Aug 29 10:21 AM
Because of legalities of because its mindnumbingly stupid? I woudl have thought since you're so worked up about schoolyard fights in the 60's you see why it was not such a wise idea.
MaggieL Thursday Aug 29 12:57 PM
Look, this is another case of your "firearmed" coinage. You harbor this illusion that firearms as weapons represents something radically different in kind rather than in degree from other weapons and sorts of violence.
Violence and abuse between children is a very serious issue...and one reason there are incidents like Columbine is ignoring the issue until something dramatic happens, such as the use of firearms.
Violent emotion can kill with or without firearms, and fomenting violence and countenancing hatred, whether in an American (or Australian) schoolyard or in a Palestinian camp is the core. You allow yourself to be distracted by the "evil" of one instrumentality of violence, and thus you miss the true point.
I'm not "all worked up about it", Mr. Pot...so don't call that kerttle "black". After all...
It's really a shame that you have grown up to this point beliving that debate consists of incitement and bullshit.. That's one reason I've been anticipating hopefully the first time you actually get formal instruction in debate, because true debate very different from simply dispensing flamage in a blog.
It seems you see no difference between another generation of Palastinian children being groomed to throw themsleves into the Intafadah meat grinder and the boy in the "a-human-rights" poster, being shown how to use a firearm without a pile of propaganda being shoved down his throat along with it--assuming the Palestinian boy *was* shown anything about his weapon besides where the bullets go in and which end to point at the Israelis, a proposition that the photo itself makes highly doubtful.
Again, there's a world of difference between being taught *how* to shoot and being indoctrinated in *who* to shoot, and how to make a human bomb of yourself, from the cradle onwards. The photos Tony's been posting make a point about this practice, and now clearly the Palestinians have finally realized that when photos of this stuff hit the world press, it makes them look, very, very bad, just as the street celebrations after 9/11 did. "Hyperbolic bullshit" just doesn't play well, it seems.
That's not a difficult distinction to make, unless you're peddling ideas that won't stand unless supported by "hyperbolic bullshit". You may not "give a f*ck" about training...but raising kids, and learning, *after* kids aren't kids anymore (a line you're only just about to cross yourself) is very, very importnant.
The values a kid absorbs early in life shapes them profoundly as a person. If you don't disinguish between being taught self-reliance and responsibility and the institutionalized inculcation of violent race hatred, we do indeed have little common ground for discussion, and might as well fling "hyperbolic bullshit" back and forth. That's clearly not worth your time nor mine.
My comments about the likely outcome of a negligent discharge in the case of the Palastinian boy are supported by the past behavior of the Palestinians: every child is a weapon, and every death a propaganda opportunity. You can dismiss that as "FUD" if you like; but that's not the meaning of the term as I use it.
But if all you can do when you have no point to make is bluster, I suppose you might as well. After all, it may be true that "Violent *language* is the last resort of the incompetant" too. :-)
jaguar Friday Aug 30 03:01 AM
Nice attempt to misquote me there, I'm going to ignore it. I'm also going to also ignore the obvious crap you pointed out, the verbal equalivant of trying to look someone down over horn-rimmed glasses. As well as that ill ignore all the wonderful tangents you lace your posts with, the not-particularly-subtle personal attacks on me and deal with the issue of this thread, the comparison I made between those two pictures.
I'm left with a much shorter post to deal with now I've sheared off the shit I must say.
Firstly, I don't believe firearms training is a good form of self reliance training and while it can be a way to train responsibility, I don't think it’s the best one. Self reliance? How about some useful skills (I don't think being about to hit a paper target in the head at 200m is a useful skill unless you're planning on becoming a merc), and independence instead. Pratical things oddly enough are far more useful.
This is getting dangerously close to in Isreali/Palastinian thread, what a nice way to whip up a shitstorm, combine gun control and that. Anyway....
While my original post was just a shot of light irony at them both having the same gun since its been taken so seriously and seems to virtually have become an extension of the other thread on this I may as well see it out now.
You seem to be saying that indoctrination into hatred is the enemy, not firearms. Fair enough. I assume therefore that the 'child abuse' heading this was originally posted with refers to this, not children having firearms in a training with military weaponry situation, as that is clearly ok according to you.
Glad we narrowed that down. Living in a country where the Attorney General is afraid of the female form I can understand you dislike of indoctrination, religious or otherwise. In that I agree, it’s not a good thing, I don't think indoctrinating kids into an insular culture of hate is a good thing, shock horror. I think that is about all I agree with you on.
juju Friday Aug 30 10:03 AM
You two are never going to agree on this.
jaguar Friday Aug 30 06:08 PM
You're kidding me. :p
juju Friday Aug 30 10:05 PM
Henceforth, I wish to be known as Juju, Bringer of Insight.
elSicomoro Friday Aug 30 10:46 PM
No, you will be known as Mr. Fucking Obvious.
MaggieL Friday Aug 30 11:48 PM
Which "two of us" are you talking about? Jag and who else? He's been taking on all comers in this thread lately, then using an apparently editorial "we". Is it possible you don't think he'll agree with himself?
juju Saturday Aug 31 12:38 AM
Is this a rhetorical question?
Nic Name Saturday Aug 31 12:51 AM
Is that a rhetorical question?
MaggieL Saturday Aug 31 12:59 AM
Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
jaguar Saturday Aug 31 08:38 AM
MaggieL Saturday Aug 31 10:38 AM
Whatever gets you through the day. I hadn't realized "garbled" was a style.
NateXLH1000 Monday Sep 2 09:16 PM
Is it a pipe or isn't it?