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   xoxoxoBruce  Saturday Jan 16 11:34 PM

Jan 17, 2010: Free Country

It's a wonderful thing, living in a free country.
Sadly, something much of the World's population can't experience.
There is one minor drawback though...

Quote:
Freedom of speech is fine but the freedom to purchase where we want is satisfying. In Texas yet? I can't believe it is there to close for the day. In Houston... Harwin Central Mall: The very first store that you come to when you walk from the lobby of the building into the shopping area had this sign posted on their door. The shop is run by Muslims. Feel free to share this with others. Imam Ali flew one of the planes into the twin towers. Nice huh? Try telling me we're not in a Religious war!


I borrowed this from Orsm.net, a very NSFW website in Australia, where it apparently was contributed by a Texan.


lumberjim  Saturday Jan 16 11:39 PM

I think that if someone were to put a sign up that stated that this store closed for a day in respect for that religious nutbar....sales could suffer.



Bullitt  Saturday Jan 16 11:42 PM

*cough*http://spacecityskeptics.wordpress.c...ical-thinking/
Fear mongering ftw.



lumberjim  Saturday Jan 16 11:46 PM

burn them anyway!


THEY TURNED ME INTO A NEWT!





....I got better....



xoxoxoBruce  Saturday Jan 16 11:55 PM

Excellent Bullitt, thanks for the link.
So this originated in an email, huh. Shows what can circulate when explanations are neither proffered of requested. I wonder if this made the local papers in Huston at the time? Obviously it upset some people, and someone, maybe a reporter, questioned the owner and got an explanation.



chrisinhouston  Sunday Jan 17 10:45 AM

This is one of the more scary aspects of the power of the Internet. It's like shouting "Fire" from the balcony of a theater just to see what happens. I have a few relatives who constantly send me crappy hoax shit like this or how Obama is going to give Social Security benefits to illegal aliens or how Congress voted themselves a pay raise while cutting the amount in senior's SS checks. I used to try to respond with a link to the Snopes or other hoax website but now I just delete it and move on.



chrisinhouston  Sunday Jan 17 10:48 AM

By the way, I forgot to mention that I know that area of Houston and it has a fairly large Muslim population, there is a big mosque on Harwin if I am not mistaken. And right next to this area is what Houstonians refer to as Chinatown because of the large Asian population. When I moved here in 1980 I lived and worked my first job not far from this area and it was totally white suburbia then.



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jan 17 10:57 AM

I too, get those constantly, Chris. The most blatant/vicious, I still send back with Snope's-ish links, but like you say, nobody has time to fight them all.



nachoha  Sunday Jan 17 11:43 AM

The Snopes link to be specific
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/photos/martyr.asp



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jan 17 11:54 AM

Welcome to the Cellar, nachoha.



DanaC  Sunday Jan 17 11:58 AM

We had a recent spate of attacks on taxi drivers (mainly Moslem) in our town, because someone spread a rumour that the black ribbons many of them have on their cabs (hanging off the rear bumper) were to show support for the Taliban and Al Qaeda. In the end the police had to print statements in the local newspaper, explaining that they were actualy charms to ward off evil whilst driving. Basically their version of a St Christopher.

In the letters page of the paper, people were still pissed off. They shouldn;t be allowed to have those charms on their cars, they said; this is a Christian country and they should do more to fit in.



Pete Zicato  Sunday Jan 17 12:01 PM

And even if it was:

"You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free".



richlevy  Sunday Jan 17 01:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt View Post
Quote:
Today I went to the Harwin Central Mall to pick up some crystals. The very first store that you come to when you walk from the lobby of the building into the shopping area had this sign posted on their door. The shop is run by Muslims. I couldn’t stay in the building, it made me so sick.
Yep in the U.S. you are allowed to believe anything.


classicman  Sunday Jan 17 01:16 PM

Great one Petedar from The American President, I believe.



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jan 17 01:22 PM

Quote:
Today I went to the Harwin Central Mall to pick up some crystals. The very first store that you come to when you walk from the lobby of the building into the shopping area had this sign posted on their door. The shop is run by Muslims. I couldn’t stay in the building, it made me so sick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by richlevy View Post
Yep in the U.S. you are allowed to believe anything.
Something wrong with shopping for rhinestones?


squirell nutkin  Sunday Jan 17 02:41 PM

A lie makes it halfway around the world before the truth even has its boots on.



Antimatter  Sunday Jan 17 02:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
There is one minor drawback though...
Yeah, freedom of speech sucks. It's just that the alternative sucks even worse.


Gravdigr  Sunday Jan 17 03:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Zicato View Post
And even if it was:

"...Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free".
Quote:
Originally Posted by richlevy View Post
Yep in the U.S. you are allowed to believe anything.
Here's what I believe: I believe that if I walk down the street in my town, and someone is burning a U.S. flag, that someone better damn-well be wearing a Boy Scout uniform or displaying some sort of affiliation with a known, local patriotic organization. Because if he ain't, I am perfectly willing to go to jail and/or the hospital for at least trying to stomp the ever-loving shit out of them.

And anyone that doesn't like that can take a flying fuck at a rolling donut.


Gravdigr  Sunday Jan 17 03:35 PM

Oh, and 'freedom of speech' covers porn, so, freedom of speech rocks.



Pete Zicato  Sunday Jan 17 05:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by classicman View Post
Great one Petedar from The American President, I believe.
Yup


Pete Zicato  Sunday Jan 17 05:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravdigr View Post
Here's what I believe: I believe that if I walk down the street in my town, and someone is burning a U.S. flag, that someone better damn-well be wearing a Boy Scout uniform or displaying some sort of affiliation with a known, local patriotic organization. Because if he ain't, I am perfectly willing to go to jail and/or the hospital for at least trying to stomp the ever-loving shit out of them.

And anyone that doesn't like that can take a flying fuck at a rolling donut.
And I believe you don't really understand the concept of freedom of speech. It isn't "freedom of speech as long as they agree with me".


toranokaze  Sunday Jan 17 05:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Zicato View Post
And even if it was:

"You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free".
I'm with you on this all the way my plucky friend


monster  Sunday Jan 17 08:50 PM

Burning a flag is an action, not speech. If we want freedom of action, that's a whole different kettle of fish.



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jan 17 09:16 PM

The courts have ruled it's freedom of expression, not action.



squirell nutkin  Sunday Jan 17 09:24 PM

That is your definition Monster, not how the law is interpreted. We've gone over the Freedom of speech thing here ad nauseum. As much as I love uniformed argument, I wish people would read the fucking amendment before they blather on about how to interpret it and enforce it.

I'm not speaking to you specifically, Monster. More like to everyone in this thread.

It's the same with the BooYah! flag wavers who don't know the first thing about flag handling protocol, or priests that diddle little boys. (Hint: you take it down at nigth and replace it before it is shredded. If the flag is that important to you, then learn how to treat it. As for priests, remember that bit about celibacy? that extends to little boys, if being a priest is so important to you , they fucking act like a priest, and finally...

RTFM before you fucking weigh in on freedom of speech.

A few good places to start if you want to have a clue about your so called freedom of speech:
http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/freedom1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom...irst_Amendment

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/95-815.pdf

But hey, isn't that what freedom of speech is all about? Your right to say whatever crosses your mind? Or is it? Read up and find out.

"Free Speech" or Protected speech is actually extremely limited in this country. There's a whole heap of shit you can't say. you'd be surprised, really.



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jan 17 09:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravdigr View Post
Here's what I believe: I believe that if I walk down the street in my town, and someone is burning a U.S. flag, that someone better damn-well be wearing a Boy Scout uniform or displaying some sort of affiliation with a known, local patriotic organization...
Oh, you mean like this;


And not like this.



monster  Sunday Jan 17 09:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by squirell nutkin View Post
That is your definition Monster, not how the law is interpreted. .
Did I say otherwise?

However, the law is interpreted by people. People who sometime disagree. Their intepretations are based on their opinions...are you with me so far...?

personally, I have no problem with flag-burning. It's a piece of material. But what if I choose to "express" myself by putting a bullet in someone? Should i be allowed that freedom too?


xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jan 17 09:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by squirell nutkin View Post
I'm not speaking to you specifically, Monster.
Yes he was. FIGHT! FIGHT!
Quote:
(Hint: you take it down at night and replace it before it is shredded.
I don't care what "proper" is, I don't agree with that. WTF, is the Stars & Stripes afraid of the dark? Fuck No!
Quote:
O! say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O! say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?



monster  Sunday Jan 17 09:39 PM

you can leave it up at night, but it must be illuminated so you CAN see it gallantly streaming. Jus' sayin'



squirell nutkin  Sunday Jan 17 09:43 PM

I thought you did when you said Burning a flag is an action not speech.

Symbolic Speech
“The First Amendment literally forbids the abridgment only of ‘speech,’ but we have long
recognized that its protection does not end at the spoken or written word.”136 Thus wrote the
Supreme Court when it held that a statute prohibiting flag desecration violated the First
Amendment. Such a statute is not content-neutral if it is designed to protect “a perceived need to
preserve the flag’s status as a symbol of our Nation and certain national ideals.”137
By contrast, the Court upheld a federal statute that made it a crime to burn a draft card, finding
that the statute served “the Government’s substantial interest in assuring the continuing
availability of issued Selective Service certificates,” and imposed only an “appropriately narrow”
incidental restriction of speech.138 Even if Congress’s purpose in enacting the statute had been tosuppress freedom of speech, “this Court will not strike down an otherwise constitutional statute
on the basis of an alleged illicit legislative motive.”139
In 1992, in R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul, the Supreme Court struck down an ordinance that prohibited
the placing on public or private property of a symbol, such as “a burning cross or Nazi swastika,
which one knows or has reasonable grounds to know arouses anger, alarm or resentment in
others, on the basis of race, color, creed, religion or gender.”140 Read literally, this ordinance
would clearly violate the First Amendment, because, “[i]f there is a bedrock principle underlying
the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply
because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable.”141 In this case, however, the
Minnesota Supreme Court had construed the ordinance to apply only to conduct that amounted to
fighting words. Therefore, the question for the Supreme Court was whether the ordinance,
construed to apply only to fighting words, was constitutional.
The Court held that it was not, because, although fighting words may be proscribed “because of
their constitutionally proscribable content,” they may not “be made the vehicles for content
discrimination unrelated to their distinctively proscribable content.”142 Thus, the government may
proscribe fighting words, but it may not make the further content discrimination of proscribing
particular fighting words on the basis of hostility “towards the underlying message expressed.”143
In this case, the ordinance banned fighting words that insult “on the basis of race, color, creed,
religion or gender,” but not “for example, on the basis of political affiliation, union membership,
or homosexuality.... The First Amendment does not permit St. Paul to impose special prohibitions
on those speakers who express views on disfavored subjects.”144 This decision does not, of
course, preclude prosecution for illegal conduct that may accompany cross burning, such as
trespass, arson, or threats. As the Court put it: “St. Paul has sufficient means at its disposal to
prevent such behavior without adding the First Amendment to the fire.”145


Shooting someone is not protected speech.

Read all about it here:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/95-815.pdf



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jan 17 09:43 PM

Since they squashed my right to rocket's red glare, fuck 'em.



squirell nutkin  Sunday Jan 17 09:46 PM

I personally don't give a shit about flag burning either. I'm just saying, also that if it is important to you, then follow your own rules.

What bugs me is people trotting out "Freedom of Speech" as the universal defense to whatever opinion they have when that opinion is not protected speech.

Invoking the first amendment isn't like calling the coin flip. I called it first, is not how the law works.

And I'd never pick a fight with monster cause she's all swimming and tough and shit.



squirell nutkin  Sunday Jan 17 09:48 PM

I can see why no one wants to actually read the law, it is much less interesting than reading "You suck and you're an asshole"

In fact, it's downright boring.

There's 39 pages of that shit I quoted.



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jan 17 09:49 PM

Wussy. :p



squirell nutkin  Sunday Jan 17 09:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
you can leave it up at night, but it must be illuminated so you CAN see it gallantly streaming. Jus' sayin'
Who's broad? Stripes and bright stars?


squirell nutkin  Sunday Jan 17 09:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
Wussy. :p
You don't know that half of it.




monster  Sunday Jan 17 09:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by squirell nutkin View Post
I thought you did when you said Burning a flag is an action not speech.
Yourbad then. For sure it's my interpretation/definition/whatever but I said nothing about how the law is interpreted.


monster  Sunday Jan 17 10:00 PM

FTR, talking to an immigrant about the constitution etc it like talking to a reformed smoker about the dangers of cigs. We know most of it backwards because some day they may test us on it. But we know it out of necessity, not passion. That's generally why I stay out of this stuff. I try not to get upset about the stuff I don't agree with becaise in the main I love living here and one day I will become a citizen.



squirell nutkin  Sunday Jan 17 10:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
FTR, talking to an immigrant about the constitution etc it like talking to a reformed smoker about the dangers of cigs. We know most of it backwards because some day they may test us on it. But we know it out of necessity, not passion. That's generally why I stay out of this stuff. I try not to get upset about the stuff I don't agree with becaise in the main I love living here and one day I will become a citizen.
Awesome.
Can we kiss and make up now?

Just a fair warning about citizenship:
The government cheese is not all that it's cracked up to be.



monster  Sunday Jan 17 10:15 PM

heehee ...do we need to make up? I hate that stuff, blocks the pores... and as for kissing....I'm a married woman!!


I wish I could afford citizenship (am now eligable) -do you know how much it costs?!!!!111!!1 not like you yanks are citizenship Hos or nuthin'......



squirell nutkin  Sunday Jan 17 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
heehee ...do we need to make up? I hate that stuff, blocks the pores... and as for kissing....I'm a married woman!!


I wish I could afford citizenship (am now eligable) -do you know how much it costs?!!!!111!!1 not like you yanks are citizenship Hos or nuthin'......
You mean they charge you to become a citizen? (Why am I surprised?) Couldn't you, you know sneak across the border into the US, dye your hair black and get a tan?

habla?


xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jan 17 10:26 PM

OK, start a buy Monster US citizenship fund.



monster  Sunday Jan 17 10:34 PM

it's around $700 with notary fees -per person, and there's 4 of us.....



classicman  Sunday Jan 17 10:45 PM

What a great Christmas Gift - ohhh thats right FSM doesn't have Christmas
Well what a great whateveryoufuckingcelebrateondecember25th gift.



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jan 17 10:46 PM

OK, we need three grand, text MONSTER to 90999.



monster  Sunday Jan 17 11:11 PM

are you sure you really want us.....



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jan 17 11:13 PM

We don't want you to escape.



monster  Sunday Jan 17 11:15 PM

ah.


fair enough.



the secrets of cheez whizz and perfect teeth must be preserved....



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jan 17 11:19 PM

Yeah, well that, and we really, really like Beest.



monster  Sunday Jan 17 11:24 PM

aw, bless, tf someone does. the kids and i were thinking at least he'd make great catfood when our earthquake comes.



Clodfobble  Monday Jan 18 10:58 AM

There's four of you? Oh, because Thor was born here, is that right?



Happy Monkey  Monday Jan 18 11:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Burning a flag is an action, not speech.
Talking is also an action. So is writing and publishing. So is marching.

Whether any of them, including burning a flag, is also protected speech depends on the context.


Pie  Monday Jan 18 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble View Post
There's four of you? Oh, because Thor was born here, is that right?
Anchor baby!


squirell nutkin  Monday Jan 18 11:51 AM

Can we make a t shirt for Thor that says something like "I was born here and got citizenship but all my mom got was this lousy green card?"

It'd be a lot less than $700.



morethanpretty  Monday Jan 18 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by squirell nutkin View Post

habla?
Que habla?

(That is probably in the wrong order, I could never write Spanish questions correctly)


Gravdigr  Tuesday Jan 19 05:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
Oh, you mean like this;


And not like this.
Yep.


Gravdigr  Wednesday Jan 20 03:32 PM

On second thought, that flag in the first pic should not be on the ground. Lazy bastards.



Happy Monkey  Wednesday Jan 20 05:09 PM

There's another flag on the pile of trash. Not much better.



Griff  Wednesday Jan 20 05:25 PM

I believe that pile of trash is flags. Which is more respectful a bunch of drunks with a bbq or an impassioned statement of protest?



Gravdigr  Monday Jan 25 04:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff View Post
I believe that pile of trash is flags. Which is more respectful a bunch of drunks with a bbq or an impassioned statement of protest?
Protest ANYTHING you want Griff. It's your right.

But.

FUCK YOU FOR CALLING THE PEOPLE THAT GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO SAY WHAT YOU WANT "a bunch of drunks".

That rather lengthy list includes a lot of people I love and RESPECT. (you'll prolly hafta look that one up.)

And I don't give the first flying fuck about how "impassioned" someone is when they insult my flag and my country...If I see some guy burning my flag, he's getting kicked in the nuts.
me ----><---- Flag burner


classicman  Monday Jan 25 06:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravdigr View Post
FUCK YOU FOR CALLING THE PEOPLE THAT GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO SAY WHAT YOU WANT "a bunch of drunks".

That rather lengthy list includes a lot of people I love and RESPECT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravdigr View Post
On second thought, that flag in the first pic should not be on the ground. Lazy bastards.
I think those are VFW guys.


Griff  Monday Jan 25 06:34 PM

I support your right to tell me to fuck off. As I am in no way a flag worshiper, I don't have the training to understand why a haphazard pile of flags on a dirty parking lot by a BBQ is better handling than a Bic on the Capital steps. We can argue about the "gave me the right" part when I'm in the mood to piss off 90% of the board.



Gravdigr  Tuesday Jan 26 12:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff View Post
I support your right to tell me to fuck off...
Stop making me chuckle when I'm trying to be pissed off.


Griff  Tuesday Jan 26 06:14 AM

Sorry.



xoxoxoBruce  Tuesday Jan 26 09:50 AM

I'd like to invite you two to the White House for a beer.



Gravdigr  Tuesday Jan 26 05:12 PM

GM got (getting?) billions in their bailout. Chrysler? Billions. Banks? Billions and billions. Me & Griff? Our bailout? A beer.



xoxoxoBruce  Thursday Jan 28 12:35 AM

All right, all right, and beer nuts, ya whining maggot.:p



RellikLaerec  Monday Feb 15 02:58 AM

I always thought there was a ceremony for burning a tattered/torn/dirty flag. It's usually done with respect. Those guys look like they are VFW or American Legion. So I would say they are burning old tattered flags. Nothing wrong with that.

As far as freedom of speech. The one thing I know is as long as the speech doesn't interfere or disrupt another persons pursuit of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, then it's protected. Once it started interfering with those, then there's a problem. Things like slander are not protected. You can get in a lot of trouble for calling someone a lier or cheater, but you can pretty much get away with calling them mutherf*cker and other colorful terms. Just watch Penn & Teller's show "Bullshit". If someone wants to protest by burning a flag, then fine. As long as they don't have a problem with me tossing buckets of water on it when they light it.

That my



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