Visit the Cellar!

The Cellar Image of the Day is just a section of a larger web community: bright folks talking about everything. The Cellar is the original coffeeshop with no coffee and no shop. Founded in 1990, The Cellar is one of the oldest communities on the net. Join us at the table if you like!

 
What's IotD?

The interesting, amazing, or mind-boggling images of our days.

IotD Stuff

ARCHIVES - over 13 years of IotD!
About IotD
RSS2
XML

Permalink Latest Image

May 29th, 2017: Make Money At Home

Recent Images

May 28th, 2017: Big Sur Slide
May 27th, 2017: China Moon
May 26th, 2017: Eurasian Beavers
May 25th, 2017: Snowmobile
May 24th, 2017: International Cryptozoology Museum
May 23rd, 2017: Sutro Baths
May 22nd, 2017: Ivy Oak

The CELLAR Tip Mug
Some folks who have noticed IotD

Neatorama
Worth1000
Mental Floss
Boing Boing
Switched
W3streams
GruntDoc's Blog
No Quarters
Making Light
darrenbarefoot.com
GromBlog
b3ta
Church of the Whale Penis
UniqueDaily.com
Sailor Coruscant
Projectionist

Link to us and we will try to find you after many months!

Common image haunts

Astro Pic of the Day
Earth Sci Pic of the Day
We Make Money Not Art
Spluch
ochevidec.net
Strange New Products
Geisha Asobi Blog
Cute animals blog (in Russian)
20minutos.es
Yahoo Most Emailed

Please avoid copyrighted images (or get permission) when posting!

Advertising

Philadelphia Pawn Shop
The best real estate agent in Montgomery County
The best T.38 Fax provider
Epps Beverages and Beer, Limerick, PA
Sal's Pizza, Elkins Park
Burholme Auto Body, Philadelphia
Coles Tobacco, Pottstown
ERM Auto Service, Glenside
Glenside Collision
Moorehead Catering, Trappe
Salon 153, Bala
Dominicks Auto Body, Phoenixville

   Undertoad  Monday Nov 4 12:20 PM

11/4/2002: Gay Games open



In Sydney over the weekend, the Sydney Gay Games opened for its sixth time. They have 12,000 competitors from 80 nations, no word on whether the 2000 Olympics facilities are in use. Participating in the opening was the very fine singer k.d. lang, who also celebrated her 41st birthday. (No, that's not k.d. on the ice there.)

I wonder whether it's more a sporting event or more a cultural event.



lawman  Monday Nov 4 01:37 PM

Yeah, I've always had a bit of a negative reaction to events such as these - gay games, indiginous games, etc.

I'm all for people's rights to do whatever they want. The pride marches are a wonderful spectacle, highlighting alternative lifestyles, and attract thousands of people to watch.

You don't see the 'caucasian games' or 'hetrogames'. There is nothing stopping either of the two afore mentioned groups from partaking in mainstream athletic competition.

....let the flames begin!.....



Vegeta  Monday Nov 4 01:52 PM

Re: 11/4/2002: Gay Games open

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
(No, that's not k.d. on the ice there.)
Grandma???


MaggieL  Monday Nov 4 02:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
(No, that's not k.d. on the ice there.)
C'mon Tony...most of us can tell k.d. from DQ. :-)
Especially since k.d. is more of a drag king.
Quote:
Originally posted by lawman
There is nothing stopping either of the two afore mentioned groups from partaking in mainstream athletic competition.
Um....what planet are you posting from again?


Senor Oso  Monday Nov 4 03:31 PM

What I really want to know is, what the heck is he... uh... she... um... that person, holding in.... er.... damn you, pronouns! Anyway what is that thing? A frying pan? An oversized castanet?



elSicomoro  Monday Nov 4 03:44 PM

I'd say it's a bit of both: a celebration of the culture, and a love of sport. Good stuff.

When I first saw k.d. perform on TV (with the Reclines), I thought she was a he.

The REAL issue here is that Shepps thinks she's a fine singer. What the hell is wrong with you?! Let me guess...you bought Kenny G's new CD the minute it hit the shelves, didn't you?



Undertoad  Monday Nov 4 03:49 PM

It's editorial! Post an image with one person in it, and then write a story with one person in it, and most people will think there's a connection. Probably more people have seen kd lang than haven't, but certainly there are a lot who haven't.

And she's a fine singer, with a great voice. And so were the "American Idol" candidates. If you go for that sort of thing.



MaggieL  Monday Nov 4 04:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore

The REAL issue here is that Shepps thinks she's a fine singer.
I think <i>The Consequences of Falling</i> and <i>Barefoot</i> are great cuts. The pic on the back of <i>Invincible Summer</i> shows how femme she can look too.


elSicomoro  Monday Nov 4 04:10 PM

It's all in jest. I don't particularly care for her music, but she's not a bad singer.



warch  Monday Nov 4 06:10 PM

Hey! I liked the cowpunk kd. She was fun. She's gone all famous and adult contemporary, and that's too bad.

But as that great crooner Stompin' Tom Connors recalls...

Where the wild roses grow in Alberta-
On the banks of the Gooseberry lake
There's a rose I suppose that you hearda-
She's as mild as a wild Irish wake
Like a thorn she was born to be contrary
Like a boy's was her joy raising cain.
The wildest rose that ever drove on the prairie
behind the wheel of a big truckload of grain.
Chorus
Little k, little d, little l-a-n-g
Her name was just plain kd lang
But her main claim to fame was how she sang with a twang
And jumped around like a 'rangytang
lady k.d. lang



Zorg  Monday Nov 4 06:24 PM

Hmm

Someone might try to make the point that promoting ridiculous steretypes(i.e., all gay men are promiscuous perverts who do things like go around dressed in women's clothing) is probably not the best way to acheive mainstream acceptance of homosexuality. Perhaps it would be better to communicate the idea that not all homosexuals are potential child-molestors who talk with a lisp.



Nic Name  Monday Nov 4 06:26 PM

Oh oh ... here we go.



jaguar  Monday Nov 4 06:35 PM

Where the hell did that whole paedophillia link come fron anyway (apart from the catholic church)? Always seemed really silly to me. This sort of wierd idea that all those evilevil ungodly sexual peversions were somehow all interlinked or something.

This one *i'm* probably going to get flamed for (how unusual) but why can't gay athletes compete in the normal olympics?



elSicomoro  Monday Nov 4 06:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
This one *i'm* probably going to get flamed for (how unusual) but why can't gay athletes compete in the normal olympics?
They do...Greg Louganis (though I don't believe he was out at the time).

Hmmm...I see this in the same way I do the NAACP: Something that allows people of a certain group to celebrate...well, themselves, after being unable to do so for so long (though I don't think the Gay Games are necessarily on the political tip). I'm all for it.


Nic Name  Monday Nov 4 07:30 PM

He was out as soon as he hit the board.



Nic Name  Monday Nov 4 08:34 PM

Gay Games, Gray Games, the Aussies keep rollin' after the 2000 Olympics.



juju  Monday Nov 4 08:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lawman
You don't see the 'caucasian games' or 'hetrogames'. There is nothing stopping either of the two afore mentioned groups from partaking in mainstream athletic competition.
Caucasians and heterosexuals haven't been abused and ostracised like gays have been. Gays need to do these sort of things to reinforce their own community, sometimes the only community that will accept them.


jaguar  Monday Nov 4 09:41 PM

Should be in melbourne, we've got the highest rate of same sex couples in the world. I donno it all seems silly to me, madi gras etc fine but do we need a seperate everything for every bloody minority? I mean you're not going to find much antigay sentiment here (even one of our high court judges in openly gay and works for gay rights) and europe is equally if not more liberal and most of asia doesn't give a damn i mean it seems a tad pointless. On the other hand someone needs to make use of the billions in infrastructure sydney built.



MaggieL  Monday Nov 4 10:08 PM

Re: Hmm

Quote:
Originally posted by Zorg
Perhaps it would be better to communicate the idea that not all homosexuals are potential child-molestors who talk with a lisp.
Well, the drag queen in the picture is neither molesting children nor lisping. I'm assuming he's a DQ as opposed to a transvestite based on the rather overboard makeup job.

GLBT folks have their own events because mainstream culture is still pretty oppessive. There's one hell of a big gap between "not finding much anti-gay sentiment" and having a space where it not only physically *safe* to be queer, but where various forms of queerness are actually routinely accepted.


jaguar  Monday Nov 4 10:12 PM

Is there still much? Really? I'm mean pubicly its not going to be tollerated, lots of guys are a bit but thats just insecurity and generally predictable male behaviour, i'd say 1/5 at most. Its no PC, its not accepted i'd somehow doubt at something like the olympics it'd be tollerated at all. The only guys i can think of that are actually antigay as such are military types



elSicomoro  Monday Nov 4 10:56 PM

Sadly, there is still quite a bit of anti-gay sentiment in this country...the 90s helped usher in more tolerance, but the hate is still there. Just less overt...like racism.



Nic Name  Monday Nov 4 11:02 PM

Quote:
the gay world according to Jag

I'm mean pubicly its not going to be tollerated ...
So long as you keep it in yer pants laddies. No, not you ladies!


Zorg  Monday Nov 4 11:50 PM

Re: Re: Hmm

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL

Well, the drag queen in the picture is neither molesting children nor lisping. I'm assuming he's a DQ as opposed to a transvestite based on the rather overboard makeup job.

GLBT folks have their own events because mainstream culture is still pretty oppessive. There's one hell of a big gap between "not finding much anti-gay sentiment" and having a space where it not only physically *safe* to be queer, but where various forms of queerness are actually routinely accepted.
The point I'm trying to make is that holding "Gay Games" set apart from simple mainstream events like the Olympics, all the organizers are doing is promoting the factionalism and tribalism that prevents mainstream acceptable of gays and lesbians. Think about what Joe Sixpack sees when he hears about the 'Gay Games' and sees some crossdressing skater? Does he thing "Gee, homosexuals are human beings, just like me."? Or does he think "Damn queers are a bunch of deviants"?

I think it's better that homosexuals be accepted as fellow human beings, rather than being accepted as strange aberrations.


TenderMuffin  Tuesday Nov 5 12:07 AM

> Caucasians and heterosexuals haven't been abused and ostracised like gays have been.

you don't play basketball, do you?



juju  Tuesday Nov 5 01:44 AM

No, I hate sports.



MaggieL  Tuesday Nov 5 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
Is there still much? Really?
Yes.

And "insecurity typical male behavior" is hardly an excuse. God, listen to yourself: "Well, there really isn't *much*, it's not done in public, and of course boys will be boys, they're just insecure..." .

No, it isn't done in public in the West, they just find your body in the morning. Not to mention the other countries where you can be publically executed for being queer.


MaggieL  Tuesday Nov 5 12:27 PM

Re: Re: Re: Hmm

Quote:
Originally posted by Zorg
The point I'm trying to make is that holding "Gay Games" set apart from simple mainstream events like the Olympics, all the organizers are doing is promoting the factionalism and tribalism that prevents mainstream acceptable of gays and lesbians.
Oh, it's <b>factionalism</b> that prevents the mainstrem from accepting queer folk! And here I thought it was homophobia. Silly me, I should have realized it was just those damn queers being factionalist...obviously it's their fault. Why can't they just be normal and blend in like everybody else?
Quote:

Think about what Joe Sixpack sees when he hears about the 'Gay Games' and sees some crossdressing skater?...I think it's better that homosexuals be accepted as fellow human beings, rather than being accepted as strange aberrations.
Well, I would imagine that offering that one image as representative of the games was done by a Joe Sixpack photo editor. There's no shortage of normal-looking athletes at the Games, but that's not interesting to Joe, and doesn't sell any papers.

When gay pride events occurr in SF, manstream press coverage is guaranteed to include 1) The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, who rollerskate in nuns habits, 2) the NAMBLA contingent, who have since been disinvited from the parades, 3) the leather afficionados. Queer folks just being people isn't worthy of coverage. Those of us in the <a href="http://www.pinkpistols.org">Pink Pistols</a> locally have gotten a fair amount of press being photographed shooting at things, with emphasis on our female members....lesbians with guns has serious erotic potential for some guys.


Beletseri  Tuesday Nov 5 04:38 PM

I dunno, there is just something endearing about a drag queen.



warch  Tuesday Nov 5 05:33 PM

A tale of closed closets in the NFL locker room....



jaguar  Tuesday Nov 5 10:05 PM

Reality check. Any minority anywhere is going to get a bit of persecution. Simple as that. People fear things they don't understand or are not familiar with, doesn't matter whether its the chess club, gays, furries, white bball players the list is endless. I think the short and sweet of it is get the fuck over it. From what I’ve seen gay bashings now are about as common as KK killings and other extremists movements, that is not going to change and I think zorg does have a point that establishing separate events where it is highly debatable they are needed does alienate people which certainly is not going to help. There is a huge difference between a bit of insecurity and killing people. One of my best friends is a lesbian, she’s been abused verbally for PDAs in public by strangers, big deal, anyone who stands out and is different is going to cop crap, I’m sure we all have at one point in our lives or another.



Cam  Wednesday Nov 6 01:45 AM

If we're going to talk about White basketball players, or hell any professional sports where blacks dominate. Remember that it hasn't been that long ago that blacks were not accepted. And it wasn't protesting that brought about this change, it was some progressive white male who realize that blacks had skills and refused to care what others thought.

The most recent major controversy regarding minors in sports has been the hiring of black coaches in college football. I think there are something like 4 black coaches in NCAA division 1 football. Notre Dame's new head coach Ty Willingham is black, and his hiring brought this disparity to the medias attention, and now some people are getting up in arms and planning on "forcing" the NCAA and NFL to force teams to hire black coaches. Would this gain anything? Willingham went 7-0 to open his first season I would bet that this has more to do with future blacks being hired then anything.

For any Minority to be accepted in sports it is necessary for someone in the Majority accepting the minority and giving him the chance. But then that minority has to prove himself or herself. The sad thing is that the minority probably has to prove himself as better than the majority(The greatest human flaw is our inability to accept difference).

We have no idea what would happen if a football player came out when he was playing. I'm sure some people would have a problem with it, homophobia run rampant in our society, it's a sad fact though it's becoming a lot better. However, I would also guess that the majority of players wouldn't care as long as he played hard and produced. But the scary thing is, is that if this player came out, and really wasn't that good, and found himself cut a month after coming out imagine the controversy. People would be picketing NFL games for "discriminating against Gays". Even if this isn't the case, they would be “discriminating” against poor athletes.

Okay so I have a bunch of unconnected thoughts sprawled through this post but I guess my point was going to be that if gays are going to participate in the Olympics they have to go about it the same as any other athlete. If a gay athlete proved himself or herself, capable of competing and winning then they are going to be able to compete. Sure it’s going to create controversy, anything regarding change in minority status usually does. However, if the athlete proves that they are able to compete as well as any straight athlete they are going to be accepted by the mainstream in the end.



jaguar  Wednesday Nov 6 02:35 AM

Quote:
If we're going to talk about White basketball players, or hell any professional sports where blacks dominate. Remember that it hasn't been that long ago that blacks were not accepted. And it wasn't protesting that brought about this change, it was some progressive white male who realize that blacks had skills and refused to care what others thought.
Discrimination either way is not only disgusting, but foolish, being persecuted inteh past does not justify doing it yourself in the future, it only makes it deeply hypocritical.

Quote:
But the scary thing is, is that if this player came out, and really wasn't that good, and found himself cut a month after coming out imagine the controversy. People would be picketing NFL games for "discriminating against Gays". Even if this isn't the case, they would be “discriminating” against poor athletes.
There is an extremely funny french movie about a guy that is about to be fired, so he pretends he's gay so if they fire him they'll be up for discrimination, very good. Completely forgotten the name, damn.


juju  Wednesday Nov 6 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
From what I’ve seen gay bashings now are about as common as KK killings and other extremists movements,
Maybe things are different in Australia, but in America, if you're openly gay, you can expect to be harrassed about it every single day. There's so much hatred and dest for homosexuals here that most gays just prefer to keep quiet about it.


dave  Wednesday Nov 6 10:30 AM

It all depends on where. I've known plenty of gay people who aren't harrassed about it every day. I'm sure "queer folk" have an easy time in places like San Francisco, too. Sure, in Arkan-fuck-your-sister-sas, the homophobic mentality reigns supreme. But it's not like that all over the country.



Cam  Wednesday Nov 6 10:47 AM

Quote:
Discrimination either way is not only disgusting, but foolish, being persecuted inteh past does not justify doing it yourself in the future, it only makes it deeply hypocritical.
My point was that white basketball players are not being discriminated against. There just are not that many great ones out there. I think the last great white basketball player to play in the NBA was Larry Bird, or I guess you could say John Stockton. Both of those players are great though not becuase they are more physically gifted then others(in the NBA) but becuase they worked hard. So it isn't discrimination it's just letting those who have the skills get the job.

Hockey is a sport where the opposite is happening. There are very few black hockey players, and those that do play usually find themselves met with scorn. It's a sad reality, but becuase no black hockey player has come in and dominated, it makes it more difficult for the average one to make it to the NHL.


juju  Wednesday Nov 6 11:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dave
Sure, in Arkan-fuck-your-sister-sas, the homophobic mentality reigns supreme.
Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you? DISCRIMINATION!


MaggieL  Wednesday Nov 6 12:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
Discrimination either way is not only disgusting, but foolish, being persecuted inteh past does not justify doing it yourself in the future, it only makes it deeply hypocritical.
This one comes back to haunt Jaggie, I guarantee. :-)


MaggieL  Wednesday Nov 6 12:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
I think the short and sweet of it is get the fuck over it.
Then I suggest you suck it up and take your own advice when queer folks decide to have their own events. Get over it.


jaguar  Thursday Nov 7 02:16 AM

cam someone above me I forget you cited that example, I don't know anything about it I just assumed it had some basis.

I guess the kind of persecution is based on where you live, these are global gay games, not the Sydney gay games. Rural Australia is no better than deep south US, with an even more intolerable accent. Anyone that screams minority! Victim! Poor little I etc tend to piss me off. The madi gras in sydney and the Chinese community here has a history of doing it, it pisses everyone off, including members of both groups. On the other hand I think the Madi Gras is a truly sweet event, I'm hopefuly going next year with a few friends next year actually, the gay games on the other hand just seems silly. I mean the masters games/grey games is for people that otherwise wouldn't have a venue for competition, the gay games seems more about a statement that gays are somehow unique and different and therefore cannot compete in the ordinary Olympic games. Well gee sorry maggie, last I checked we were discussing it. Sure its none of my damn business, sure as hell doesn't stop me holding an opinion.



MaggieL  Thursday Nov 7 11:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
Anyone that screams minority! Victim! Poor little I etc tend to piss me off.
You're missing the point of the Gay Games. Screaming "victim" would be *not* having the Gay Games. Straight people utterly control mainstream culture. Having events like this establishes (on a temporary, limited basis) an alternate space where the norms are different, where you can be gay and be out and have it not be an issue.

It's not that "gay people can't compete in the Olympics"; as was already pointed out they can and do. But when they do, if they don't closet themselves, they're asking for all kinds of trouble; they must carefully keep their gayness hidden. Which is why you'd even ask a silly question like "why can't gays compete in the normal Olympics?". (As opposed to the *abnormal* Olympics, right? :-) )

Your advice was "get the fuck over it". Well, this is *how* we "get the fuck over it". Go to the website (since you're unlikely to go to the Games) and check out the social activities; imagine what it muct be like to be there. That creeping sense of alienation you're feeling about it (go on, deny it) is a *tiny* sample of what queer folks feel in mainstream culture 24/7. Is it any wonder that they make their own spaces where the tables are turned?

And they instant they do, they're criticised for "factionalism". What a joke.


dave  Thursday Nov 7 12:27 PM

I think the Gay Games disappoint me because it's a reminder that homosexuals don't feel comfortable being themselves in society. Many don't feel able to just "be gay". As I've said before, it really doesn't bother me at all - I just wasn't raised to believe that it was wrong or right or anything.

And it's sad seeing places like the Westboro Baptist Church breeding hate in people - especially children. They're making the problem worse. They are the same as any other far-right bunch of lunatics - they want to keep America "uniform", without blacks or hispanics or gays or Jews. One of the defining characteristics of the United States is that we are of all races. We're the melting pot of the world. And it's beautiful and good that way.



MaggieL  Thursday Nov 7 03:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dave
I think the Gay Games disappoint me because it's a reminder that homosexuals don't feel comfortable being themselves in society.
So is it really the Games that disppoint you?

Or is it the society?


jaguar  Thursday Nov 7 03:59 PM

missed your coment Nic, don't know about where you live but its not going to be privately tollerated here either, you're misinterpreting what I said either way.



jaguar  Thursday Nov 7 04:04 PM

Quote:
But when they do, if they don't closet themselves, they're asking for all kinds of trouble; they must carefully keep their gayness hidden.
I'm yet to see any evidence of this. As for your normal olympics comment, what woulld you prefer i call it, the striaght olympics? The evil olympics for the repressive majority?

As for dave's post i think its just the gay games remind him about society, thats always depressing. As for alientation maggie, not there, sorry. My closest 3 freinds are all bi and I've got plenty of gay and lesbian friends, while ill avoid the gay bars purely becase it pisses people off lots of the parties etc i go gay/mixed, it just doesn't phase me in the slightest, generally it tends to be more fun coz the music's better. I guess its becase i live where i do and mix with the people that i do that i don't really notice much of the discrimination, in public here its the abusers of gay couples that cop the dirty looks.


Undertoad  Thursday Nov 7 04:28 PM

Dave is saying that it's society that makes him sad, and I'm agreeing with him.

I'm recalling the way I felt, and I think the way USians felt, the weeks following 9/11. As much as I don't bring it up, it was an odd feeling at times that all of a sudden we weren't all different groups any longer, but that all of a sudden everything that everyone felt brought us completely together. We weren't straights and gays, whites and blacks and asians and puerto ricans, poor rich or middle class, etc. We were just americans trying to figure out what happens next.

Depending on how jaded you were, it took between a week and a year for that to feeling to subside to the point where you could safely feel disdain for your fellow man.

But for a while there was no need for any gay games or segregated parades or anything else. Wouldn't it be cool if it didn't take a national emergency with deaths and destruction, to feel like post-9/11 all the time?



MaggieL  Thursday Nov 7 04:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar

As for your normal olympics comment, what woulld you prefer i call it, the striaght olympics? The evil olympics for the repressive majority?
"The straight Olympics" works for me. They're not evil, but they're not a reason to not have the Gay Games.
Quote:
As for alientation maggie, not there, sorry.
Really? Seems to me your disparagement of the games is driven by that very alienation.

If you truly do live in such a totally liberated utopian space that there's no reason to have Gay Games, then good on you. But I don't think you'd have to travel very far before you'd be outside such friendly spaces. We're also within spitting distance of the old "some of my best friends..." canard again...maybe you'd have to have been around in the 1960's to know how hollow that sounds to those of us who were around then.

The world I live in is *vastly* more gay-friendly than it was even twenty years ago. But my glasses aren't rose-colored enough for me to pretend that this is a world that's safe for queers; it isn't, and that's the truth. Maybe you should walk a few more miles in queer shoes before you tell me how good everything is.

I do hate gay bar music, though. :-)


perth  Thursday Nov 7 05:00 PM

Quote:
I do hate gay bar music, though. :-)
why? what do they play?

~james


MaggieL  Thursday Nov 7 05:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
Dave is saying that it's society that makes him sad, and I'm agreeing with him.
Well, that's what I thought; but his words didn't exactly say that. I thought I'd comment on it.
Quote:
I'm recalling the way I felt, and I think the way USians felt, the weeks following 9/11. As much as I don't bring it up, it was an odd feeling at times that all of a sudden we weren't all different groups any longer, but that all of a sudden everything that everyone felt brought us completely together. We weren't straights and gays, whites and blacks and asians and puerto ricans, poor rich or middle class, etc. We were just americans trying to figure out what happens next.
There's a lot of truth in that; the threat we felt at that time was monsterous enough that it made a lot of our differences seem small by comparison.

But it didn't take long for that to evaporate for some folks. Two days after the attack, Falwell and Robertson were on TV blaming gays and lesbians (among other despised groups such as pagans) for it, saying: 'I point the finger in their face and say, "You helped this happen".'

Idiotarians of the Right, indeed.

Four weeks after 9/11 the AP ran a picture worldwide of a sailor loading a Taliban-targeted bomb bearing the graffiti legend, "High Jack This, Fags." Pretty ironic considering the Taliban punished homosexuals by sharia law: lining them up against a stone wall and then pushing it over on them.


MaggieL  Thursday Nov 7 05:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by perth

why? what do they play?
Around here it's non-stop dance mix at what seems like 100 dBA; totally destructive of any ability to socialize. When I want to bathe in sound I'll go to a rock concert. But then I'm a notorious old fart.


jaguar  Thursday Nov 7 05:20 PM

Never been to a gay bar, been to a gay nightclub, that was pretty good (friends first time wanted me to come with him, first time a guy tried to pick me up, odd experience. Sets just seem to be better, this is techo we're talking about keep that in mind. I guess events that attaract diverse audiances tend to have better music. Some of the big ones held down at the warves like hardware were just fantastic, pity they shut that down, now the best events are ones like earthcose held out in forrests, great fun and attract a really good mix of people. Maggie most decent events ahve chillout areas where you can chat/socialise etc, they're called raves/dance parties for a reason. 100db is tame too


UT you reminded me of this fantastic song by Tom Lehrer, absolute legend that guy.

Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks.
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize
The people you despise,
As long as you don't let 'em in your school.

Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It's American as apple pie.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can't stand.
You can tolerate him if you try.

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!



Nic Name  Thursday Nov 7 05:32 PM

Quote:
Jag missed my comment ... then missed the joke, anyway

missed your coment Nic, don't know about where you live but its not going to be privately tollerated here either, you're misinterpreting what I said either way.
...

Quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the gay world according to Jag

I'm mean pubicly its not going to be tollerated ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So long as you keep it in yer pants laddies. No, not you ladies!
I was trying to point out, in a humorous way, that you misspelled publicly as pubicly, which is especially funny when we're discussing toleration of gay sexuality.

It may be coincidental that I live in Toronto, Canada, which is known for being the most gay friendly city in North America after San Francisco.

We're less tolerant of those who can't spell tolerated.


jaguar  Thursday Nov 7 05:51 PM

I'm not doing well today



Beletseri  Thursday Nov 7 05:54 PM

Originally posted by jaguar

As for your normal olympics comment, what woulld you prefer i call it, the striaght olympics? The evil olympics for the repressive majority?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"The straight Olympics" works for me. They're not evil, but they're not a reason to not have the Gay Games.

_____________

But gay people aren't barred from the Olympics so I don't think "straight Olympics" works either.



blowmeetheclown  Thursday Nov 7 06:02 PM

Re: Re: Hmm

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL

GLBT folks ...
Hold the mayo.


tjennings  Thursday Nov 7 07:37 PM

I have but one question. Do they separate between men's and women's events? If so, how?



MaggieL  Thursday Nov 7 08:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tjennings
I have but one question. Do they separate between men's and women's events? If so, how?
Good point. Last I heard, they did have separate men's and women's events (at least for sports where that's traditional). There was indeed a huge controversy at one point over transsexual women entering as women.

As far as I know they didn't get to the point of genetic testing like in the straight Olympics. As I recall, the final resolution of the issue was based on a judgement call by medical personel who were to take into into account stuff like sex-reassignment surgery and hormonal therapy. Goodness knows *I* don't have the upper body strength I used to. I've even lost about an inch of height, although my skeletal frame is otherwise pretty much what it was pretransition.

I doubt that the figure skater whose image started the thread would be permitted to compete as a woman.


tjennings  Friday Nov 8 11:19 AM

Maybe they could use a weighted average. They would have to assign each competitor something like a male/female ratio score. Your score or time in each event would be adjusted based on that ratio (kind of like a degree of difficulty adjustment in diving).

I guess that would just be one more thing to argue about. "I got screwed, they said I'm still 45% male, when I'm sure I'm no more than 30%." Or something like that.



CharlieG  Friday Nov 8 12:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tjennings
Maybe they could use a weighted average. ...snip...
I have a better idea - why don't we just drop the male/female distiction, just like we are supposed to do in most workplaces, in writing (so you see the artificial (s)he). Let the men and women, straight or gay, black or white (or green with purple polkadots), all compete - and let the best person win!


richlevy  Saturday Nov 9 11:51 AM

And where would that put Tonya Harding? On one hand she's got that biker chick toughness, on the other hand she appears to be enthusiastically hetero. As a matter of fact, considering the fact that she is an Olympic athlete and a little on the tough side, I think I would place her in the on my just now formed

"Top 10 Women it Would Be Dangerous to Literally 'Screw With' (But might be worth it)" list.

Candidates would be those who from non-B&D sexual activity, would be most likely to place their partners in the emergency room (or morgue).


Quote:
Originally posted by tjennings
Maybe they could use a weighted average. They would have to assign each competitor something like a male/female ratio score. Your score or time in each event would be adjusted based on that ratio (kind of like a degree of difficulty adjustment in diving).

I guess that would just be one more thing to argue about. "I got screwed, they said I'm still 45% male, when I'm sure I'm no more than 30%." Or something like that.



Nic Name  Saturday Nov 9 11:55 AM

That could be a hot thread, if you'd care to start one!



MaggieL  Saturday Nov 9 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by richlevy
And where would that put Tonya Harding? On one hand she's got that biker chick toughness, on the other hand she appears to be enthusiastically hetero...
Hmmm. Gotta say if you're hospitalizing your bedmates, you're doing something wrong; repeat business is vital. I do know a dyke couple where Tab A got her wrist broken while fisting Slot B, though. Just a little too effective.

There's certainly no contradiction between toughness and being hetero in a woman, though. I know plenty of people of all genders representing all combinations of "toughness" and sexual preference.


Cam  Saturday Nov 9 01:08 PM

Free and Clear

Here is an article out of ESPN the magazine about the gay NFL football player. Very interesting, it is actually written by him with the help of another editor. Very worthwhile reading.



philgump  Monday Nov 11 11:43 AM

Gay Games!

Okay when I first saw this all I saw was a silly fag on ice. Then I went on to read it was the 6th Annual Gay Games. What a bunch of hooey. I see that someone posted that there shouldn't be a gay games due to the fact that they could participate in the normal olympics. I have to say "RIGHTO"

Now before you start the moaning and complaining (and flaming) let me add that I am a gay man. I still think the whole thing is a bunch of crap and I really don't want to hear that "Yes but they have been opressed for years." GET OVER IT. Besides the fact I really don't see how a 60 year-old drag queen on ice skates is going to further the cause of gays and lesbians everywhere.

To me it sets us back. Why? Here is why. The olympics are a set of games that are created for the elite, many gays have been in the oylmics and been quite good at it. Now along comes a group of wimpy pansies and says "Thats too hard" , "This doesn't celebrate the beauty inside me", whatever. You created a set of games becasue you are not good enough to be in the regular olympics.

DO YOU REALLY THINK IS THE WAY TO GET RESPECT? Why don't you be the best that you can be and be come the best Swimmer, Skater, Gymnist, or Weightlifter possible, and leave the GAY out of it. Why is is that gays feel like they have to annouce they are gay. Do you see other groups doing this. To me is is just a big joke, you want respect from the rest of the community there is ONE way to gt it. Act like a normal human being, stopping forcing "GAY" down everyones throats. Hell for the most part gays piss me off worse than anything else on earth and I know that if I am this annoyed then the rest of the world must be feed up with you.

As it has already been said. . . . Let the Flames begin!



MaggieL  Monday Nov 11 12:16 PM

Re: Gay Games!

Quote:
Originally posted by philgump
Now along comes a group of wimpy pansies and says "Thats too hard" , "This doesn't celebrate the beauty inside me", whatever. You created a set of games becasue you are not good enough to be in the regular olympics.
The point isn't that the folks participating in (competing *and* attending) in the Gay Games aren't good enough for the "normal" Olympics. The point is that "normal" athletic events --those of lesser fame as well as the Olympic Games themselves--aren't good enough for queer folks to participate in without constatly worrying about if they're "looking normal" or being abused by the others attending.

You say you're a gay man: are you out or closeted?


philgump  Tuesday Nov 12 12:33 AM

Closeted or 'OUT'

Maggie and everyone else that would like to know:

I have no idea what the hell that means I never have. I mean are you asking if I go up to everyone an say 'Hi, I am Phil and I am a homosexual' well then the answer would be NO. Why would you do that. I mean you can be who you are without announcing it with flags waving.

Now, if you are asking if people know that I am gay. Well that would depend on how much intelligence they have. I always announce my partner as my partner and I make no bones about having a one bedroom house and have two grown men living there. If someone asks me if I am gay of course my answer would be yes, as I do not make it a regular habit to be a liar.

There are a lot of things about me people don't know. Do some people at work know, yes? Do they all know? Hell no, do you go to work and announce the sexual positions you use. You may to some to others it is of no consequence. Why do some people feel that they have to announce being gay. To be quite frank, most people do not deserve to know that much about me. Do you feel you have to tell everyone your sexual preference? I mean are you OUT as a heterosexual and if you say yes how do you know? I mean do you make it a point to say hey I am MaggieL and like to blow guys or girls. Why does ones life have to be based on the sex they have? Really people say, be colorblind and racism will fade, don’t mind what sexual preference people are and hatred will go away. If we are all supposed to be so integrated why is everyone trying to divide everything? I mean if you are truly color blind why say I am white, or I am black? If you have no problem with sexual preference then why do you have to say I am gay or straight?

I guess it is just my philosophy on life you see when I see people I tend to think more than what color, what sex, what sexual preference, or what nationality they are . I tend to not care.

So am I out? Well MaggieL I guess I just don’t thing you earned the right to know.

BTW what the HELL? Why do they have to worry about looking 'normal' are they abnormal in some way? I guess they think they are or else why invent a seperated set of games, and if you are going to ask if a man dressing in women's clothing is normal well let me take the bigoted approach and say "NO" is is not normal and Yes, there are are a set of stanards we live by.



Nic Name  Tuesday Nov 12 12:38 AM

"I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is."



MaggieL  Tuesday Nov 12 10:30 AM

Re: Closeted or 'OUT'

Quote:
Originally posted by philgump
So am I out? Well MaggieL I guess I just don’t thing you earned the right to know.
Wow...hit quite a nerve with that one.

By "out" I simply meant is your queerness a big secret that you are at pains to conceal (which is absolutely your right) or not. In a discussion of how queer folks relate to society I think it's an important thing to know; because it definately changes your point of view.

If you truly don't know what "out" means, let's try some examples: Ellen de Generis is definately out. J. Edgar Hoover was not. Now, there's a fairly broad spectrum in between, of course. I think how cranked up you are about answering that question says a lot...even though what you say suggests to me that you are not totally "closeted", which would mean that to my way of thinking you're out.

Interesting that you introduce your lifepartner as "your partner"; my lifepartner and I used to use that phrase until we discovered that many people thought we meant "business partner". "Roommate" doesn't always convey the idea of a comitted intimate relationship either.

Again, you've got a right to be as open about your own relationships as you like. As do other people. Perhaps in a perfect world, no one would care what your sexual orientation was, but the woreld is far from perfect, and being queer isn't purely a personal issue, it's political too.

That "are you out or not" is an issue is another indication of why "it's not the same thing to be queer"; in general, straight people don't conceal their relationships unless they're cheating on someone or otherwise banging someone they shouldn't--like the boss, ferinstance. Of course, queer folks keep that kind of thing on the QT too.


juju  Tuesday Nov 12 11:02 AM

You say that people don't need to know whether or not you're gay, but isn't that just a rationalization for your shame at them knowing?

These other gays aren't trying to "shove it in people's faces". They're expressing who they are, because they love themselves and have a high self-confidence.



dave  Tuesday Nov 12 11:15 AM

No. I think what he's saying is "it's really none of your fucking business". He obviously isn't ashamed of it or he wouldn't have admitted it here. He just doesn't feel the need to flaunt it.



juju  Tuesday Nov 12 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dave
No. I think what he's saying is "it's really none of your fucking business". He obviously isn't ashamed of it or he wouldn't have admitted it here. He just doesn't feel the need to flaunt it.
Well, admitting something online is no big deal. You're basically anonymous (unless that's his real name, of course).

He's said that he tells some people he's gay, but it's clear that he only tells people if he has to. That's the clue to the motivation, I think. He doesn't lie about it, but he doesn't freely offer the information, either. He makes a point of not telling people unless they absolutely need to know.

You say he doesn't like to "flaunt it", but noone actually does this. To say that some gays are flaunting their sexuality is to mischaracterize their motivations. It's my opinion that they just want to be themselves openly. For them, it's not about showing off to other people for their own ego's sake. To do so would be counterproductive to the ego.

I don't really like to tell people i'm from Arkansas. It's really none of their business. If they're intelligent, they'll figure it out.


perth  Tuesday Nov 12 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju

Well, admitting something online is no big deal. You're basically anonymous (unless that's his real name, of course).

He's said that he tells some people he's gay, but it's clear that he only tells people if he has to. That's the clue to the motivation, I think. He doesn't lie about it, but he doesn't freely offer the information, either. He makes a point of not telling people unless they absolutely need to know.

You say he doesn't like to "flaunt it", but noone actually does this. To say that some gays are flaunting their sexuality is to mischaracterize their motivations. It's my opinion that they just want to be themselves openly. For them, it's not about showing off to other people for their own ego's sake. To do so would be counterproductive to the ego.

I don't really like to tell people i'm from Arkansas. It's really none of their business. If they're intelligent, they'll figure it out.
i guess i really dont understand what youre suggesting. are you saying he should actively try to work it into conversation? as in "this dinner is great! im gay. could you pass the potatoes?".

i dont go around telling people im straight. it really is nobodys business but my own. so i dont see why gay people should have to tell people theyre gay. it comes off like theyre warning you about it or something. its okay to be proud of what you are, and if you want to tell people thats fine. but just because a person places different values on privacy does not imply that theyre ashamed of what they are.

~james


juju  Tuesday Nov 12 12:43 PM

No, i'm not saying work it into irrelevant conversation. That'd just be silly.



perth  Tuesday Nov 12 12:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
No, i'm not saying work it into irrelevant conversation. That'd just be silly.
the only reason i ask is because philgump did say that he will not lie if asked. he felt it was personal, but i did not get the impression that he was in any way ashamed of his lifestyle.

~james


dave  Tuesday Nov 12 01:05 PM

I pretty much agree with philgump on this one. I don't just go around saying "I got laid last night." It's no one's business but mine (and my partner's, if I did indeed) - but I won't lie about it either. I just don't offer it up.

It's fine to be gay and proud if that's what floats your boat. But as for being yourself openly, I don't think it needs to include your sexuality. Whether or not someone is gay is not immediately physically obvious, like color of skin. So "being yourself" shouldn't mean that they have to fit into the stereotypical gay male mold - "I'm sthooper!" I know exactly one gay male where you could just <b>tell</b> - and a number of others where you couldn't.

So basically, the point is, you don't need to announce it to be yourself. Just like straight people don't introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Donald and I'm straight", gay persons don't need to introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Phil and I'm gay."



perth  Tuesday Nov 12 01:08 PM

Quote:
"I'm sthooper!"
i almost fell out of my chair laughing at that. i think it was how you spelled it.

~james


Cam  Tuesday Nov 12 01:10 PM

Quote:
If you truly don't know what "out" means, let's try some examples: Ellen de Generis is definately out. J. Edgar Hoover was not.
Famous people make shitty examples with regards to personal life. There entire life is under a microscope everday so when they decide to come out every single person knows about it. And they incure the wrath of people who are homophobic yet don't know them personally. Kind of a different story if your next door neighbor decided to come out today.



Quote:
So basically, the point is, you don't need to announce it to be yourself. Just like straight people don't introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Donald and I'm straight", gay persons don't need to introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Phil and I'm gay."
Exactly


MaggieL  Tuesday Nov 12 01:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by perth
i dont go around telling people im straight.
Of course not. You don't have to, because everyone simply assumes that you *are* straight...after all, isn't everybody?

And that's kind of the point. If you hold hands with your girlfriend on the street, nobody accuses you of "flaunting" anything; it's an act with no political significance. But if I hold hands with *my* girlfriend in public, all of a sudden I'm "getting in peoples face's with my sexuality". How rude of me. A well-balanced, *nice* queer would simply crawl back into the closet and not upset people. It's uppity queers like that that give queerness a bad name. Right, Philgump? :-)

There is no way to have an ordinary, everyday expression of queer sexuality without it being controversial...whereas straight sexuality is publically expressed *constantly*...so much so that most of it passes pretty much unnoticed. This is the value of a space like the Gay Games, or a Pride Parade, or places like Key West or the Castro or Provincetown. There, routine expression between two people (hand-holding, hugging, etc.) of same-sex affection isn't politiczed, it matters only to the people involved.

Of course, I could also hold hands with a boyfriend (don't have one at the moment but that could change) and get flack from some gay people for being bisexual. "Fencesitter! Don't camoflage! Accept your true queer nature like the rest of us have!"

"How queer is that?" :-)

The normative collective cultural pressure is "don't ask, don't tell"...that way you don't ever challenge people's cherished assumptions, or stir up any repressed emotion or cognitive dissonance. It make it possible to continue the fallacy that "almost everybody is straight, so it's OK to assume that everybody is".


dave  Tuesday Nov 12 01:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL
But if I hold hands with *my* girlfriend in public, all of a sudden I'm "getting in peoples face's with my sexuality". How rude of me. A well-balanced, *nice* queer would simply crawl back into the closet and not upset people. It's uppity queers like that that give queerness a bad name. Right, Philgump? :-)
I don't think that's it at all (though I haven't ever walked down the street holding hands with another male, so I can't speak from personal experience). I think all he's saying is that it's fine to be gay, but by differentiating yourself (i.e., by having "gay games"), you further instill in people the notion that gays are different from "normal" human beings.

I didn't read anything from him saying that same sex couples shouldn't walk down the street holding hands - and of course there's always going to be some stares or whatnot. Give it time though, and try not to be so self conscious about it. I think less people actually care than you might think.


elSicomoro  Tuesday Nov 12 03:10 PM

Juju, I wouldn't tell anyone you're from Arkansas either.

It's amazing how different cultures can be. If two guys held hands in the US, they would almost automatically be labeled as "gay." In the Arab world, from what I understand, that is considered a sign of good friendship.



MaggieL  Tuesday Nov 12 04:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dave

I think all he's saying is that it's fine to be gay, but by differentiating yourself (i.e., by having "gay games"), you further instill in people the notion that gays are different from "normal" human beings.
Well, queer folk *are* different from "normal" human beings. They're queer.

But making gayness invisible does nothing to advance the idea that "queer folks are like other people only queer". That's why there are gay amateur radio clubs, and gay railroad model clubs, and gay shooting clubs. (Obligatory plug: http://www.pinkpistols.org Don't miss Gwen on "PhillyLive" tonight at 7:30pm on WYBE)
Quote:
Originally posted by dave
I didn't read anything from him saying that same sex couples shouldn't walk down the street holding hands - and of course there's always going to be some stares or whatnot.
Of course. Queer folks should *always* be prepared to accept rude behavior from "normal" people, what else can you expect? :-)

But sometimes it's nice to have a place where you *don't* have to put up with that bullshit, and that's what the Gay Games and other queer space are for.


MaggieL  Tuesday Nov 12 04:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cam
Famous people make shitty examples with regards to personal life.
I suppose. But there's not much point in me offering examples from people who *aren't* famous...nobody knows who they are.


MaggieL  Tuesday Nov 12 04:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cam
And they incure the wrath of people who are homophobic yet don't know them personally. Kind of a different story if your next door neighbor decided to come out today.
Yes, that would be like the difference between a Matthew Shepard story vs. a Brandon Teena story.

Speaking of Brandon, November 20th is The fourth annual Transgender Day of Remeberance


Cam  Tuesday Nov 12 05:05 PM

Or maybe it's that you don't know who they are. That's the thing with people who are out. their friends probably know they are out but you can't tell who they are when you walk down the street. Which is a indicator that they are the same as you and me. I think the biggest thing is that people have very little experience with actual acquaintences who are gay. If they had that experience instead of famous people who suddenly come out, most people would have a different view of gays.

I personaly have had no experience with someone who is gay so I'm making this up as I go. But if I found out my friends were gay it would be quite a shock. Though I like to think I would be able to handle it and look at them the same.



philgump  Tuesday Nov 12 06:13 PM

The Fourth Annual Transgender Day of Remeberance!!!

See that is what I mean....segragation!!!

Well, I declare this the first Annual day of people with medium brown hair that like bananas and like to eat them frozen dipped in chocolate while sipping diet cola day. Why not make a day for Jews for Hitler!

BTW Dave, I have to say I would not hold another mans hand while out and about in town. You see there is are certain things you don't do. I mean is if you enjoyed throwing up and eating it would you still do it in public NO! Why because it is not yet socially acceptable. Do you still have the right to eat your own barf? Sure, but that would not be appropriate at this age in history. perhaps as people grow more fond of puke eating it will become ok, like spitting *this one I still think is gross* anywhere that you happen to be.

My Point and I do have one (he he inside joke) is that we live in an age where it is OK to be gay but not OK for them to make out in public. That is just the age we live in DEAL WITH IT!

To all that may ask and I have seen sveral NO I AM NOT ASHAMED TO BE GAY!!!!! I just don't think it is the best word that describes me. Perhaps some people are so shallow and two-dimensional that they have to rely on catorgorizing themselves as *GAY* becasue that is the most interesting thing about them. I on the other hand would much rather be known as the guy that makes people laugh, or that crazy guy than to be known as that gay guy! Hmmm perhaps it is just me but being known as "The Gay Guy" just seems to be a bit degrading. Just like if I catorgorized maggie as that "Dyke Chick".



yourlegsdontwork  Tuesday Nov 12 06:44 PM

Sweet jesus. I've been following this post for a while and I just haven't said anything until this moment.

Not to be the obnoxious one with the dictionary or anything but:

queer (kwîr)
adj. queer·er, queer·est
Deviating from the expected or normal; strange: a queer situation.
Odd or unconventional, as in behavior; eccentric. See Synonyms at strange.
Of a questionable nature or character; suspicious.
Slang. Fake; counterfeit.
Feeling slightly ill; queasy.
Offensive Slang. Homosexual.
Usage Problem. Of or relating to lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, or transgendered people.

What is the deal with MaggieL using the word queer? Anyone else finding that odd? Reminds me of the other day I was at a thrift store and asked the owner what charity her store supported, and she said she started the store herself "Because
my daughter is a retard, and I wanted to help other retards."
I'm sorry but that is not right. Saying "My daughter is mentally retarded" or "mentally challenged" would have been nicer than busting out with "shes a retard and i wanna help other retards."
Maybe the fact that she then said "We are going to take all the donation money to take the retards to Disney World because retards seem to like that" made it a bit worse....but back to the issue..

In my opinion "those damn queers" are people too. We had to vote on seperate gay rights in South Florida earlier this year and I don't think that gay people should have their own set of rights. Everyone is a person, and everyone should be treated the same. One minute people are screaming about segregation, and the next they are seperating themselves again.

If we are going to give gay people their own set of games, then what I would like to know is where is the Olympics for fat people that can't run as fast?

I would have to agree with Phil, I understand what he is trying to say about not wanting gay people to be seperated from others that are "normal." I happen to have a lot of friends that are "gay" and they are "normal" to me. I have seen people go out of their way to bash gay people because they are holding hands, so I can completely understand Phil's reasoning behind not flaunting it in public.

I could have lived without the barf theory, Phil...and BTW, nice plug for Ellen's book

*~Tara~*



perth  Tuesday Nov 12 06:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by yourlegsdontwork
... what I would like to know is where is the Olympics for fat people that can't run as fast?
i think this is what youre looking for.

~james


elSicomoro  Tuesday Nov 12 06:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by yourlegsdontwork
What is the deal with MaggieL using the word queer? Anyone else finding that odd?
Nah. I can't speak for her, but she may wish to use it as a word of empowerment or for the sheer "power" the word holds (similar to "spic" or "nigger").


MaggieL  Tuesday Nov 12 10:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
Nah. I can't speak for her, but she may wish to use it as a word of empowerment or for the sheer "power" the word holds (similar to "spic" or "nigger").
Absolutely. Also because it's a bit more inclusive used in this way; it embraces bisexual and transgendered people as well, which "gay" might or might not, depending on who you ask. For examples, many transsexual people don't consider themselves gay if they are exclusively attracted to the opposit sex (referenced to their desired sex). Brandon Teena had a girlfriend, for example.
Quote:
Originally posted by yourlegsdontwork
We had to vote on seperate gay rights in South Florida earlier this year and I don't think that gay people should have their own set of rights.
I largely agree with that. Certainly I don't endorse hate crime laws; if I'm attacked, first let me defend myself, and then bring a criminal complaint for assault or whatever else is appropriate.
Quote:
I have seen people go out of their way to bash gay people because they are holding hands, so I can completely understand Phil's reasoning behind not flaunting it in public.
Let's be clear though, Legs: when you say "bashing gay people" are you talking about an actual assault, just taunting, or something else?

"<i>That is just the age we live in DEAL WITH IT!</i>" is certainly not a good reason for not hand holding. It might be good advice forpeople who don't like it. . The work "flaunting" is completely misapplied; would you call it "flaunting" when a straight couple holds hands?

As for comparing same sex hand-holding to throwing up, well, if as a man who is gay, you're so ego-dystonic that you find that analogy apt, Phil, I honestly think you should seek some counseling. Just my opinion.

As for being called "that dyke chick", the problem I'd have with that is that it's misleading. Folks might presume I'm exclusively Lesbian, and I'm not.


MaggieL  Tuesday Nov 12 10:17 PM

Re: The Fourth Annual Transgender Day of Remeberance!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by philgump
See that is what I mean....segragation!!!

Well, I declare this the first Annual day of people with medium brown hair that like bananas and like to eat them frozen dipped in chocolate while sipping diet cola day. Why not make a day for Jews for Hitler!
Well, there are days to remeber the Jews Hitler killed. There are also days to remeber the homosexuals he slaughtered. Why there shouldn't there be a day to remeber murdered transsexuals?

Is Memorial Day segregation because it's only to remeber US veterans killed in combat?


kodijack  Wednesday Nov 13 12:12 AM

I ab*******solutely agree

I agree with lawman wholeheartedly. Do whatever the f*** you want, but if you want to be taken seriously do it with the rest of the world and then prove your point. Still, I would take points on the number of falls in that long program.



philgump  Wednesday Nov 13 01:24 AM

Just mt opinion

Well, I am not going to bring anyone around to my way of thinking...not that I would even try. I guess I was just born in the wrong age....I just see people following MaggieL's way of thinking about being touchy feely and making sure we don't hurt anyones feelings. Meanwhile look around you the world you are living is falling apart in little shards and has been doing so ever since World War II ended. Not to say that the world was a bed or roses before. I agree it was not.

I will say this, in my mind the politically correct, touchy feely, make sure no on is excluded concept is turning this country and several others into a bed of horseshit, which may grow flowers for your guns but isn't doing a darn thing for the good of the country. Am I calling for hatred and brutal anarchy? NO!

What I am saying is that frivolous lawsuits are teeming, self-respect is at an all time low for most teenagers (just look at the girl who just came to this country, had a baby smothered it to death, and is now being defended by lawyers that she didn't understand because of the culture she is from) and everyone seems to care less for his fellowman than ever he did before. Yet you still say that this type of segregation and sub dividing is working!

All is seems to do is breed resentment not togetherness, it breeds mistrust not communication, it breeds misunderstandings not community pride! If you think that the gay/lesbian/transgendered community showed up to see a drag-queen on ice because they were proud, think again. I have been in the gay community all my life and it is not pride that this kind of spectacle invokes; it is humor. Yes, I am sorry everyone is laughing at him not with him, and it is not the evil 'straight' people. It is the very people you are calling the 'Queer Community'. I have been around enough to know what the 'Queer Community' is about and it is not pride.

It is about boastful, egotistical, pompous, hedonists, (and before someone jumps in, I am speaking in generalities but for the most part if people are honest will agree, don’t believe me watch a gay film.) that only care about the next person they can have sex with. They for the most part are a group of people that place no value or worth on a person beyond the money they have in the bank, the size of the penis they have in their pants, or what kind of body they have. You may convince some people here that this is a stereotype that doesn’t exist, but you aren’t piss on me and tell me it is raining. I may have been born on a Tuesday but, it wasn’t last Tuesday.



philgump  Wednesday Nov 13 01:30 AM

Lawman

Well, one good thing came out of my post, I bet you lawman didn't get flamed even once.



juju  Wednesday Nov 13 01:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dave
So basically, the point is, you don't need to announce it to be yourself. Just like straight people don't introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Donald and I'm straight", gay persons don't need to introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Phil and I'm gay."
It's really not as simple as that. Your sexuality is a part of you, and comes up in many more situations than just in the bedroom.

For example:<ul><li>holding hands
<li>kissing
<li>flirting
<li>having a crush on someone (and if they're straight, trying to hide it)
<li>checking someone out that you think is hot
<li>going out on a date</ul>These are all things that straight people don't have to hide. If you're gay, though, engaging in any of these results in innumerable interpersonal consequences. People will start treating you differently. You can lose friends. You could lose your job. Or, people could just start taunting and harrasing you. It is not easy to keep it a secret. It requires constant effort. If there are people who know, you know who all of them are, and if they tell someone else without your permission, it's a big deal. Being in the closet is very stressful. The whole point of being "out" is so that you don't have to deal with all that bullshit. If you're out, some people are going to start treating you like shit, but you don't care anymore because it's too much stress to have to hide it all the time. If you're not maintaining the lie, you may not go around announcing your sexuality to people, but it will be obvious in the things that you do. The first thing you're going to want to do when you're out is to hold hands in public. Not because you want to flaunt your sexuality, but because you want to feel liberated from the oppression of the constant lying.

Any sort of talk about people not needing to know is bullshit. When they find out, they're going to start treating you differently. They could be okay with it, but they might be prejudiced and start hating you with extreme vigilance. Until they find out, you just don't know which it's going to be, and the stress in the meantime could be killer.


philgump  Wednesday Nov 13 02:02 AM

What?!?

Juju, are you speaking from experience? I met Jon in College, in Memphis, Tennessee at Crichton College which is a Christian Bible Collage. All my friends there know and they are all still my friends. They still fly down to Florida to visit me.

Only one out of maybe 20 friends, decided to be an asshole about the whole thing, and even he an ex-military person didn't attack me physically. He just decided we shouldn't be friends.

There are going to be assholes in every group up until this good old earth is either blown up, we all evolve, or become extinct.

I am not saying gay-bashing, race crimes, or even or any hate crimes do not exist, but they are NOT as often as you think and if any one would like to do the statistics I think it was determined that gays performs more crimes on others gays that there are straight-gay crimes. I wish I had those facts at hand.

My point is even if every straight person was forced to love every gay ( I refuse to use the word queer). There would still be hate. It is the nature of the beast, people will hate you for religion, political affiliation, color, creed, whether you like cream or whole kernel. . . . it just goes on and on.

I did a tolerance course once and they split the room into two groups, behind the scenes they had noted the eye color of everyone in the room. The blue eyes were moved to the left while the others were moved to the right. This was all unbeknownst to the people being split up. Then the teacher had us each read an article about how science had, figured out that people of blue eyes were of a greater intelligence than that people of any other color. We were to read the article and report back as a group. All but physical violence almost broke out. Why, 10 minutes earlier eye color was the last thing on anyone’s mind? The answer was, because someone pointed out that there WAS a difference. The teacher went on to say that the article was fake and that there were no such findings, but what do you know the blue-eyed people were still smug about the whole thing at break and I still think blue-eyed people have this arrogance about them, that my friends is a real life lesson in hatred. Make your self stand out, force others to notice and I promise you people WILL hate you for it. It is the very nature of what we are. Maybe it is leftover from our primal past where being different meant you could pose a greater danger to the group, you know the strong survive. It may not be right but it is factual!



juju  Wednesday Nov 13 02:06 AM

Re: What?!?

Quote:
Originally posted by philgump
Juju, are you speaking from experience? I met Jon in College, in Memphis, Tennessee at Crichton College which is a Christian Bible Collage. All my friends there know and they are all still my friends. They still fly down to Florida to visit me.
Yep. I've had many gay friends and it's always like I described with them.

In fact, it's my experience that most Christians think gays are evil and going straight to hell. That must be a pretty liberal Christian College you went to.


Cam  Wednesday Nov 13 02:15 AM

Quote:
I did a tolerance course once and they split the room into two groups, behind the scenes they had noted the eye color of everyone in the room. The blue eyes were moved to the left while the others were moved to the right. This was all unbeknownst to the people being split up. Then the teacher had us each read an article about how science had, figured out that people of blue eyes were of a greater intelligence than that people of any other color. We were to read the article and report back as a group. All but physical violence almost broke out. Why, 10 minutes earlier eye color was the last thing on anyone’s mind? The answer was, because someone pointed out that there WAS a difference. The teacher went on to say that the article was fake and that there were no such findings, but what do you know the blue-eyed people were still smug about the whole thing at break and I still think blue-eyed people have this arrogance about them, that my friends is a real life lesson in hatred. Make your self stand out, force others to notice and I promise you people WILL hate you for it. It is the very nature of what we are. Maybe it is leftover from our primal past where being different meant you could pose a greater danger to the group, you know the strong survive. It may not be right but it is factual!
I watched a video about that in sociology last year. It was actually done with a group of 2nd graders. It was crazy how quickly this kids began to treat their friends like crap due to something there teacher taught them. Then they showed it the next day when the reverse was taught and guess what, the ones who had been discriminated against the day before were as mean as the others.


Cam  Wednesday Nov 13 02:28 AM

Quote:
In fact, it's my experience that most Christians think gays are evil and going straight to hell. That must be a pretty liberal Christian College you went to.
Boy so that means that the great majority of the US(protestants) thinks gays are evil and going straight to hell. That's quite the generalization.
I'm assuming you actually mean Catholics because catholics are usually associated with being the strongest believers in that theory. But then I'm Catholic, went to a Catholic church and met very few people who believed Gays were going straight to hell. In fact I've never heard that from a fellow Catholic who garners any respect among the majority of his/her peers.
In fact we had a protest on campus last weekend against the fact that our University supports the "10% society" This came yes from a Catholic church, but more people came out to protest the protesters, in fact not a single Catholic from Grand Forks came out in the support of those again the Gay society. Quite an illustration of this great majority that hates gays. 10 - 300 wow.


juju  Wednesday Nov 13 02:31 AM

Most people around here are baptists, and nearly all of them think that being gay is immoral.



Cam  Wednesday Nov 13 03:05 AM

okay sorry I got a littlle out of hand. I still think saying most chrisitians think all gays are going to hell is a little extreme. Not that there aren't those that due. I'm sure the percentage of christians who believe gay's are going to hell is the same percentage of those in of other religions that think gays are evil and should die.(pulled completely out of my ass, with no statistical proof)



juju  Wednesday Nov 13 03:50 AM

Where I live(the bible belt), about 95% are anti-gay. I don't know how other places and denominations are. I can only judge from the set of Christians i've personally met. I really hope it's different in other places, but most of the Christians i've met are bigots (case in point).

I know it's quite likely they're not all like this. It's just that for some reason I don't know very many of the good ones.



Griff  Wednesday Nov 13 07:49 AM

I think it really is a bible belt thing. My sister and brother-in-law spent a few years bouncing around the South while he was getting his career on track. My sister spent a lot of time among right wing "christians" and I don't think she gained from it. Her life down south was strange. It seemed like men and women were segregated with a lot of womens groups and the like, hardly a Christian way of life IMHO. Like Cam, I'm a Catholic and was never exposed to the kind of hate juju's link exposes. For most Catholics our faith is about living the sort of life that others might look at and think "those folks have something special going there." Leading by example has taken a big hit with the abuse scandals and may yet get uglier as the conservatives try to drive gay priests out of the church. Gotta get to work....



dave  Wednesday Nov 13 09:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL
For examples, many transsexual people don't consider themselves gay if they are exclusively attracted to the opposit sex (referenced to their desired sex). Brandon Teena had a girlfriend, for example.
"for example" of what? Brandon Teena was a girl who liked girls.


juju  Wednesday Nov 13 11:14 AM

It's good to know there's some sanity out there. I guess this is one of those cases where you look around you and assume it's that way everywhere. A false assumption, but an easy one to make.

I'll be getting my CS degree at the end of next year (yay!), then Kathy and I are going to get the hell out of this crazy place. I'm really thinking of Dallas, Texas, though, so i'm not sure how different religion is in that area. Not that that would affect my decision.



MaggieL  Wednesday Nov 13 01:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dave

"for example" of what? Brandon Teena was a girl who liked girls.
Brandon (born "Teena Brandon") was a transsexual man who liked girls. When it was discovered that he'd been born female, he was raped, then when he filed a criminal complaint on the rape, he was murdered, along with several of his friends.

When I said "referenced to their desired sex", I meant the sex they identified as. Brandon was living full-time in a male role. As far as I'm concened he was "straight" as a male, and queer because he was transsexual. That he had not yet had reassignment surgery at age 20 doen't make him a woman as far as I'm concerned.


dave  Wednesday Nov 13 02:34 PM

I'm not sure exactly what my opinion on the whole thing is, as far as what constitues a "woman" vs. "living as a man"... okay, so "Brandon" was living as a man, but... had a vagina. Which is a pretty distintively female characteristic. I think probably the most accurate way to describe it would be "Teena Brandon was a girl, living as a man, who liked girls." But I'm not sure that I feel it's accurate to call her a man.



MaggieL  Wednesday Nov 13 03:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dave
okay, so "Brandon" was living as a man, but... had a vagina.
Well, I lived as a woman for a year before my surgery, it's a requirement. I certainly didn't have a vagina then. I'm sure Brandon didn't think of himself as a lesbian, and neither did his girlfriend. I can't see any justification for calling their relationship a lesbian relationship.

Many--but certainly not all--transsexuals are pretty much sexually abstinent until after reassignment surgery. Brandon's vagina was pretty much irrelevant to his life at the time he was murdered, since he apparently wans't having sex--or at least intercourse-- with anybody....unless you count the two guys who raped him "to prove to her she was a woman", of course.

A transsexual friend of mine once said "It's not about who you go to bed with. It's about who you go to bed <b>as</b>, in referring to her own transsexuality.

I've had straight relationships as a guy, straight relationships as a woman, lesbian relationships, and one or two relationships that could fairly be called male homosexual (although they were pretty clumsy and really didn't work out very well, not surprisingly). I've had people who were clearly being female when they slept with me go on to at least hormonal reassignment to male (broke my heart too, "she" was damned cute). I think I've got a pretty good handle on what a "lesbian relationship" is and isn't.

Again, remeber I said "referenced to their desired sex". If it makes you feel better to think of Brandon as a lesbian, go ahead, but it's pretty clear *Brandon* didn't think of himself that way, and his girlfriend had no idea he was born female, so I don't see how she's a lesbian either.


MaggieL  Wednesday Nov 13 03:56 PM

Re: Just mt opinion

Quote:
Originally posted by philgump
Well, I am not going to bring anyone around to my way of thinking...not that I would even try. I guess I was just born in the wrong age....I just see people following MaggieL's way of thinking about being touchy feely and making sure we don't hurt anyones feelings. ....
You really are a conundrum, philgump. You claim to be a gay male yourself, and yet your rhetoric drips with every homophobic cliche in the book. This is why I suggested counselling, because if you really belive the things you've said about gay men and yet are one yourself, I can't fathom how you can live with yourself.

Perhaps you <i>were</i> born in the wrong age...your point of view would seem to fit much better in the homogenized world of 1950's culture. And yet you claim to be young enough to be my kid--I was old enough to drink the year your profile says you were born.

Where you get "touchy-feely" in relation to me I have no idea. Most of the kiddies here seem to think I'm a ultra-conservative right-wing old fart. But I do agree with Frank Zappa when he said "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." I don't believe that just because someone will hate me for being different justifies their hatred, or most especially justifies them *acting* out of that hatred.

It's certainly not a good reason for me to pretend I'm *not* different. If someone is unable to accept that there are differences among people without dissolving in rage, it's not my job to enable them to continue in their fantasy world undisturbed.


philgump  Wednesday Nov 13 10:17 PM

Sorry for the long post!!!!

"...I suggested counselling, because if you really belive the things you've said about gay men and yet are one yourself, I can't fathom how you can live with yourself. "

Well when I describe other gays I am not describing myself, I do not prance around with one wrist limp, with a lisp and saying things like "Girl you better work", "Okay Girlfriend" and "Faaaaabulous". If everyone should be himself why is it a large majority of gays act like every other gay that adore Barbara Streisand, Judy Garland, and let's not forget Dorothy and the Wizard of OZ. I do not cock my head to one side, snap my fingers and say things like mmmmmmhhhhmm, all right child work it. If these people wanted to "INVOKE THEIR INDIVIDUALITY”, then why do most drag queens look like one another. Why if they a 'woman trapped in a mans body' do they dress like Tammy Faye blew up on them. I have to say that is NOT normal for a straight woman OR a transgendered wo(man). If you want to know why I think they do these things. Attention! They want to be in the lime light. They want to scream at the world look at me, look at me, and then when the world does look at them a say "YUCK" they say how dare you judge me! Well, welcome to the lime light that is the price you pay for getting noticed. Every person who is been in the lime light will agree that your life is under the microscope and people are just waiting for you to f**k it all up.

I choose to live the life of a true individual, I like music because I like it, even though it may not be popular (They Might Be Giants and Dead Lizards) not because if I don't peers will say "that lame ass shit, whatever Mary", I like movies because they inspire me to think (Fight Club) or because I don't want to think at all (Super Troopers) not because it is the gay thing to do (Chuck and Buck, and Jeffery). I like to wear clothes to make comfortable not because its all the gay rage (Dolce and Gabbana, Versace) that is how I mange to live with myself.

"30 percent of all completed youth suicides are related to the issue of sexual identity."


Why do you think this is....I know why I almost succumb to it. I saw what gays were and I kept telling my self I am not like them I am not gay. I like baseball, I am not a sissy, I just like guys! Then I realized on day (with the help of my SOUTHERN BAPTIST friends) that being gay didn't mean all of that it meant I liked guys! That’s it, period nothing else. I had nothing to prove, no banner to wave, no war to wage, no masses to convert. It was just a non-issue.

I think a lot of those suicides are due to the fact that the people think that to be gay you have to change into the picture that started this post. They think they have to take up the "Gay MANual" and ACTUAL BOOK! After thumbing through the pages I thought Uggh this is what they think I am, and it was written by gays for gays.

You know I am only 30 years old, (yes, I was born in 1973 MaggieL) but I have learned quick, gays will use you for what they can tell you they are there for you then the very next week, wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, and if anyone has the audacity to say that it isn't true is a bold faced liar. If you have been around the gay community for over 6 months you will see how they use one person after the next. Now, I will be the first to say there are gays that are NOT like this. I am not so stupid or so blind as not know that to every rule there are always exceptions and now, like always life is never an absolute. But, when you see it time and time again, it is hard not to be a little jaded. Maggie if you have never uttered the phrase to the tune of "I am so damn fed up with these queens/fags/queers. Then I am sorry I have cause to doubt anything else you say.

To be honest with you I am so sick of the ‘you have to be this to be gay’ syndrome is make me want to snap. I happen to like Hockey, and I like to sit around in my house while eating a chili dog and drinking a beer and kick back and enjoy a game. If gays are as diverse and unique as you suggest, find me 10 gays, just ten that can name off hand five professional hockey, football, baseball or basketball players. Why does one the most popular gay sites on the net Gay.com not even have a section for sports, but has a section called “Essential Gay CD’s – Must have queer CDs”. Oh that’s right I am gay and when that gene kicked in during conception so did the k d. Lang, Crystal Waters, ABBA, and the love of any musical gene, as well as the taste for any man under the age of 25 with rippling abs. Well I guess I am only a half-baked gay then, because I don’t like any of that shit. Are you trying to tell me that 10% of the entire population of the world, who happen to be gay or transgendered just happen to like all the same movies, music and activities, are you serious?!? Yet, they do? Or at least that’s what Gay.com and Out magazine The Advocate and queer.com (OutProud) seem to think.

So if you now still wonder why I think like I think and can’t stand the gay scene, well my friend it is because is fake and a complete farce. If I needed to know how to think then I would be back in the stodgy 1950’s. I really don’t see why I should fight my way out of one set of controls just to let another tell me what to do. You may decide to jump on the proverbial gay band wagon but, as for my self I’ll walk and be myself. That is the reason I can say the things I say about gay men and can still live with myself, because I am right and I am not brainwashed in to thinking that if I don’t march in the gay pride parade, put a rainbow flag on my car, or vote democratic then I am a “bad gay”. I am just me and if that is not what you like then well too damn bad, maybe I will start myself a “Bad Gay Games” it seems to be the trend!



juju  Wednesday Nov 13 11:32 PM

So, what's the worst thing that's happened to you as a result of being gay? Has anyone ever made fun of you? Called you a sicko? Have you ever had any negative reactions when people find out you're gay? If so, how did it make you feel? What percentage of people have a negative response? And where do you live?



MaggieL  Wednesday Nov 13 11:37 PM

Re: Sorry for the long post!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by philgump
Well when I describe other gays I am not describing myself
Well, I don't know what kind of a crowd you've run with in your life, but the idea that most gay men are the kind of flaming queens you are describing is just plain *wrong* in my experience...way beyond stereotype into total misconception.

Maybe you should get out more. So to speak. :-)

Do you really believe the bulk of the attendees at the Gay Games are typified by that one queen on skates? That's no more true than saying, for example, that most Philadelphia men are accurately represented by what you see in Mummer's Parade on New Year's Day.

None of the many gay men I've met through the Pink Pistols, the Lambda Amaterur Radio Club and in fact only two I can think of encountering elsewhere in 50 years of living were camped up to that extreme. (And even those two didn't cut loose like that except when they were strictly among friends.) Many, if not most of the gay men I know are at least interested in watching sports, even if they don't participate. (after all, in adition to the ordinary entertainment value, there's lots of prime beefcake running around in pro sports...it's just that for them the eyecandy is on the field instead of waving pompoms on the sidelines. ).

Also, "woman trapped in a man's body" is a cliche about transsexual women, not drag queens. I beleive the equivalant DQ cliche (if I can borrow from <i>Wong Foo</i>) is "A drag queen simply has too much style for one gender." Bear in mind that these are both cliches...for example, being a transsexual woman is a much more complex sitution than the trite phrase "a woman trapped in a man's body" can convey, particlarly because the line between mind and body can get blurry when the brain and sex hormones are involved.

In my experience, a DQ doesn't want to *become* a woman, if he did he'd be a transsexual. Instead he seeks to express for a period some platonic ultra-diva stylization of "femaleness" that I must confess I don't completely understand even though I perceive it through their behavior quite plainly.


CharlieG  Thursday Nov 14 09:01 AM

Re: Re: Sorry for the long post!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL

Well, I don't know what kind of a crowd you've run with in your life, but the idea that most gay men are the kind of flaming queens you are describing is just plain *wrong* in my experience...way beyond stereotype into total misconception.

...snip...
Maggie,
I was going to stay out of this thread, as I really don't have anything to add, but suddenly I do.... To give an example of your point

Back in college I hung out (among other places) at the ham radio club. After about a year, I walk in at lunch time, and one of the guys I knew was chatting with this girl I liked - I made a joke about him hitting up on her, and they both started laughing, and he said "Charlie, after all this time, you still don't realize I'm gay?"

NEVER dawned on me - he was as "Normal" as the rest of us (Hams are strage anyaway right?), it's just he liked guys.

MY only complaints I have with _SOME_ of the gay comunity is a bit of defensiveness

Back when I was first dating, like most kids, I was doing some necking in public - it was pointed out to me (quietly) that this was NOT polite, and we stoped doing it - it makes people uncomfortable. Just like it was pointed out to me, if I know one or the other folks, I'll point it out to them. Usually by the time a person gets to the age of around 20, they understand this (Notice how rare it is to see folks playing serious kissy face in public)

However, at least around here (parts of NYC) you will continue to see this in CERTAIN sectors of the Male Gay comunity (I've NEVER seen it in the female comunity). When it's pointed out to them, they get defensive about it (not necessarly by me)

Want to hold hands? No problem - want a goodbye (hello/whatever) kiss, no problem. Want to make out? Take it private. (Hetero or Homo)


dave  Thursday Nov 14 09:20 AM

I guess that's really just a function of our ages. I don't much have a problem with people making out in public, though I can see how it's considered rude.

Maggie - I guess we look at male and female differently. I'm not saying that Brandon didn't live as a man, just that they had the physical characteristics of a female. As for the relationship... well, I feel bad for the girl involved, 'cause she was deceived (apparently), and that's not real cool. So no, I wouldn't consider it a lesbian relationship either. I'm not sure what I'd consider it.



MaggieL  Thursday Nov 14 11:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dave

Maggie - I guess we look at male and female differently.
Oh, I'm *certain* of that. :-) Having been down the road I have certainly does provide a unique point-of-view.
Quote:
[
I'm not saying that Brandon didn't live as a man, just that they had the physical characteristics of a female.
That's the thing, though. Until they're actually climbing into the sack (or at least considering it), whether he has a penis or not isn't really relevant. Especially if he was on testosterone, (which I kind of doubt given his economic status at the time). I'm sure there's a good "Schrodinger's cat" joke in here somewhere.
Quote:
[
As for the relationship... well, I feel bad for the girl involved, 'cause she was deceived (apparently), and that's not real cool.
"Deceived"? What if Brandon had been born male but lost his penis due to a mishap? Would his girlfriend have been "deceived" because he didn't introduce himself "Hi, I'm Brandon, I lost my dick in a harvester accident."?

We don't know how far their relationship had gone (well, actually we do know how far it *hadn't* gone), or even in what direction it was going.

Exactly at what point a transsexual person "should" disclose their backgrround to somebody else is a real conundrum. If it' s the first words out of their mouth when they meet someone, it gives the issue an importance that it doesn't deserve, and probably *does* rise to the "getting people's faces" level. If it's *never* disclosed, the TS is exposed to your charge of "deceiving" others. So it looks like the "right" answer must be somewhere inbetween...but where?

I certainly know of transexual women who got married and lived a happy life without ever telling their husbands. Assuming they *did* disclose that they were sterile before the marriage, I'm not sure I can criticize them, although it's not something *I* would ever do--too much of my life happened before my gender transition to simple pretend that it never happened and invent some "cover story" to explain my entire life "before".
Quote:

So no, I wouldn't consider it a lesbian relationship either. I'm not sure what I'd consider it.
Having been in somewhat similar situations myself, I can probably speak with some understanding about what Brandon was feeling. Neither of the people in the relationship saw *themselves* as lesbians, so any claim that they "really were lesbians" is kind of empty.

And given that Brandon was raped and murdered essentially for standing by his belief that he was neither a lesbian nor a woman, I think his opinion in the matter should be given considerable weight.


MaggieL  Thursday Nov 14 12:00 PM

Re: Re: Re: Sorry for the long post!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by CharlieG

MY only complaints I have with _SOME_ of the gay comunity is a bit of defensiveness
I guess if queer folks weren't attacked so often, they wouldn't be quite so defenseive. :-)


juju  Thursday Nov 14 01:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL
Having been in somewhat similar situations myself, I can probably speak with some understanding about what Brandon was feeling. Neither of the people in the relationship saw *themselves* as lesbians, so any claim that they "really were lesbians" is kind of empty.

And given that Brandon was raped and murdered essentially for standing by his belief that he was neither a lesbian nor a woman, I think his opinion in the matter should be given considerable weight.
Ah, so you're saying that the individual's definitions of words should be given more credence than the collective's definitions? I'm glad you're finally on my side!


CharlieG  Thursday Nov 14 03:14 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sorry for the long post!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL

I guess if queer folks weren't attacked so often, they wouldn't be quite so defenseive. :-)
Entirely possible!

Like I said, I hold all the folks I know to the same behavior standards, and most follow them - There are a few exceptions, both homo and hetro - they tend to be avoided by me.

I'm _VERY_ libertarian - I won't tell anyone they CAN'T make out in public - however, I will tell them that _I_ consider it in "bad taste". Then again, if I don't like it, I can leave.

I guess I'm one of those folks who really doesn't like ANYONE'S sexuality shoved in my face in public - In that, I'm probably kinda close to the 1950s standards. In private? Whatever floats your boat, so long as it's between consenting adults


blowmeetheclown  Thursday Nov 14 03:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
And where do you live?
What -- are you going to show up with some muscle and teach him a lesson, or something?


juju  Thursday Nov 14 03:55 PM

Heh. Nah, I was just trying to get a sense of what the society he lives in is like.



MaggieL  Thursday Nov 14 04:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju

Ah, so you're saying that the individual's definitions of words should be given more credence than the collective's definitions? I'm glad you're finally on my side!
Not at all.

I just have been learned though personal expereince that natal genitalia can be a very poor way to define gender.

I don't see this as a matter of individual vs. collective definitions or perception. But when the cops busted Brandon for passing bad paper, he failed the pants check, setting the whole sequence of events in motion leading to his rape and death, their operative definition was: innie=girl, outie=boy, just like Dave's. So they then announced to the world "Hey, that 'boy' ain't got no dick, so she ain't no boy".

I don't see this as a matter of "individual vs. collective". If Brandon percieved himself as male, and so did his girlfriend, then it makes little sense to define that relationship a homosexual one. Gay relationships *feel* gay; they're driven by the member-of-the-same-sex dynamic, just as hetero relationship are surfing on that opposites-attract energy. This is why so very few intimate relationships survive a gender transition.

Seems to me there was once a STNG epsode along these lines, too...


philgump  Thursday Nov 14 06:40 PM

Questions

I am going to try to keep this post short, which means only two pages.

Juju: "So, what's the worst thing that's happened to you as a result of being gay?"
The worst would have to have been when a gaggle of idiots were driving down the street and yelled faggot and zoomed off.

JuJu "Have you ever had any negative reactions when people find out you're gay? If so, how did it make you feel?"
Yes, of course I have had negative reactions. These days you can get a negative reaction if you save an infant from drowning. There is never a way to please everyone. How did it make me feel? It didn't, I guess that is just part of how I was raised. I was raised with the belief that life is short, there are those that like you and those that don't those that do I seek out friendship, those that don't I could careless about. That by the way is the 'touchy feely' stuff I was speaking of earlier. If you have to wonder how those comments make a gay/queer/DQ/Transgendered person feel quid pro quo you should think of how it makes a right wing Christian feel. You see for some, religion may not be as strong but for an Orthodox Jew, Catholic, or many denominations of Protestant faith there is such a thing as a "Sin of Tolerance" this means if they do not take strides in tell the person at fault of his/her sins then they themselves have sinned. Now I have read the scriptures they are referring to and I think they have misunderstood the verse in question but, just as we have the right to think the way we want, they have the right to think the way they want.

JuJu: "What percentage of people have a negative response?"
Well, I don't have any hard statistics but I would say about 10% have had negative reactions and 70% positive. I know that leaves 20% out, well that goes in the can tell category. Some people that know I am gay I can't tell what they think. They don't seem to react at all, to me this would go in the positive category.

On a side note, it is not the negative I have a problem with. At least when someone says " I hates fags". I know where I stand. What I hate are the ones that find out from another acquaintance that you are gay and they have to go out of there way to tell me that "It's great that you are gay" or " I have no problem with gays, I just want you to know that" those people I have no time for. They are not saying for my benefit they are doing it either because they don't want to look like a bigot or they are trying to convince themselves that what they are saying is true.

JuJu: "And where do you live?"
Well when I first realized I was gay and started my first (and only) relationship I lived in Memphis, Tennessee and Now I live just outside of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. So maybe all the flaming queens just live here in South Florida. My parents live in Mississippi and the whole town (Harmontown; Population: 75) knows and they all can't wait to see me when I get home. (Part of this is I think that they all want to say they know a gay person) but, I would hardly say it was a negative reaction. If anything it is like a one up or a bragging right, “Yeah well I got to eat lunch with a gay guy”, while I wouldn’t say they are sincere it is a much more constructive way to deal with it than typing me to a fence and setting me on fire. I think it certainly shows people are trying to change, but you cannot expect it to disappear overnight. There was one other person that lived there that was gay and everyone was *highly* denfensive of him. Once my mom called to tell me how a tourist had stopped by (The town is on the egde of a very large lake) and called 'Big Mike' a fag. Two of the local men ended up in jail for both attacking the tourist at the same time. I tried to look up the article that ran in The Oxford Eagle (local paper), but I had no luck.

So much for keeping it short.



juju  Thursday Nov 14 10:28 PM

This is <i>exactly</i> the same thing as the 'Bitch' thread. Transsexuals have their own personal definition of the word, and the rest of the world has theirs.

Most people's definition of gender is "men have penises, women have vaginas". The medical definition is, "You're female if you lack a Y chromosome". We'd have to do an informal survey to prove this, but i'm willing to bet most people feel this way.

Therefore, I unequivocly <i>win</i> the bitch thread debate. Hooray for me!!!!



juju  Thursday Nov 14 10:51 PM

Re: Questions

Quote:
Originally posted by philgump
If you have to wonder how those comments make a gay/queer/DQ/Transgendered person feel quid pro quo you should think of how it makes a right wing Christian feel. You see for some, religion may not be as strong but for an Orthodox Jew, Catholic, or many denominations of Protestant faith there is such a thing as a "Sin of Tolerance" this means if they do not take strides in tell the person at fault of his/her sins then they themselves have sinned. Now I have read the scriptures they are referring to and I think they have misunderstood the verse in question but, just as we have the right to think the way we want, they have the right to think the way they want.
I find it amazing that you feel this way. I personally am very prejudiced against Christian fundamentalists, and I really don't care one whit about what makes them feel bad. Hell, i'd probably do things just to annoy them (Heh..Dar can attest to this). Just shows how insenstive I am, I guess.

Still, your response was very educational, and I feel like I know a lot more of where you're coming from now. I definitely need to meet more people like you.

I'm also surprised at how accepting the communities you've lived in are towards gays. Perhaps the world really is progressing nicely, after all. Is Arkansas the only barbaric holdout?



Quote:
Originally posted by philgump
On a side note, it is not the negative I have a problem with. At least when someone says " I hates fags". I know where I stand. What I hate are the ones that find out from another acquaintance that you are gay and they have to go out of there way to tell me that "It's great that you are gay" or " I have no problem with gays, I just want you to know that" those people I have no time for. They are not saying for my benefit they are doing it either because they don't want to look like a bigot or they are trying to convince themselves that what they are saying is true.
I'm willing to bet that these people, like me, have seen gays seriously abused on a very frequent basis. They probably assume you've been hassled a lot, when in fact you haven't been. Therefore, they're trying to console you, but you don't have the same experiences as them, and so it just annoys you. Very interesting.


MaggieL  Thursday Nov 14 10:53 PM

Well, you can "call" a relationship between a post-transition female-to-male transsexual and an unsuspecting, otherwise heterosexual woman "homosexual", but I maintain by doing so you achieve only an appearance of accuracy by completely sacrificing descriptive and predictive power. When gender is not constant, "heterosexual" and "homosexual" become multivalued terms.

I think you're all wet on the medical definition, by the way. Especially in a world with genetic mosaics, interesexed conditions, androgen-insensitivity syndrome, and peripheral hornome conversion.

I've got a notarized letter from my surgeon certifying me as a functional female., so we could count that as one medical votefor the "innie/outie" standard, I suppose. It was good enough to amend my birth certificate.



juju  Thursday Nov 14 10:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL
I think you're all wet on the medical definition, by the way. Especially in a world with genetic mosaics, interesexed conditions, androgen-insensitivity syndrome, and peripheral hornome conversion.
Hmm.. I don't think I follow you. Care to expand on that?


MaggieL  Thursday Nov 14 11:05 PM

Re: Questions

Quote:
Originally posted by philgump
If you have to wonder how those comments make a gay/queer/DQ/Transgendered person feel quid pro quo you should think of how it makes a right wing Christian feel. You see for some, religion may not be as strong but for an Orthodox Jew, Catholic, or many denominations of Protestant faith there is such a thing as a "Sin of Tolerance" this means if they do not take strides in tell the person at fault of his/her sins then they themselves have sinned.
How does that stack up against "the sin of pride"? Like where you concentrate on the mote in your neighbor's eye before dealing with the beam in your own?


MaggieL  Thursday Nov 14 11:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju

Hmm.. I don't think I follow you. Care to expand on that?
Sure. In a genetic mosaic, the genotype is not the same in every cell. You can have an individual with Y chromosomes in some cell lines but not in others. An intersexed individual can have sexually ambiguous genetalia, the differentiation that occurs in one stage of fetal growth can be incomplete, or this can result in a hermaphrodite or other outcomes.

All embryos start off fundamentally female, but some of them get exposed to testosterone in utero, which casues them to develop male. This is *supposed* to be consistant thoughout development. and *supposed* to only happen when the baby is genetically male, but sometimes shit happens. Then things get interesting.

One very well-known theory about transexuality is that it may be a neurological intersex state, where the brain is constructed, say, female while the body develps male. (this differentiation occurs at a different stage of fetal development from the genetalia). We're only discovering today how many estrogenic compounds are *extremely* comnmon in the environment and getting more so, and lots of pregnant moms in the 1950's were taking DES "to prevent miscarriages", so that didn't help either.

Peripheral conversion and androgen insensitivity result in individuals whose hormone balance doesn't match their genetic sex on a chronic basis. Peripheral conversion can change testosterone into estrogen or vice versa, while in AIS there can be boatloads of testosterone around but the receptors are somehow blocked.


BrianR  Friday Nov 15 01:32 PM

I feel like a trubblemaker today

So where in this whole discussion do hermaphrodites fit in?

No one has mentioned them yet and since I count one as my friend (but I'm still wrestling with a definition for my own personal comfort) I'm looking at an empty slot (no pun intended) in the whole LBGT thing.

Maggie? Can you address this as well?

Brian

back to lurking



blowmeetheclown  Friday Nov 15 03:40 PM

Re: I feel like a trubblemaker today

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianR
A study was commissioned to find out why married women like Chinese food so much.

The conclusion was that Won Ton spelled backward is Not Now.
I loathe Joan Rivers.


MaggieL  Friday Nov 15 04:19 PM

Re: I feel like a trubblemaker today

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianR
So where in this whole discussion do hermaphrodites fit in?
...Maggie? Can you address this as well?
Well, I'm not really qualified to speak for the frankly physically interesexed, hermaphrodites included; I don't even know any such people personally--at least to know that I know them.

But--as you have already discovered--just by existing, they serve as paradigm-breakers for the binary gender system most folks subscribe to, and without which even the distinction between heterosexuality and homosexuality breaks down.

What sort of relationship there is or should be between the transsexual community and intersexed folks I'm at a loss to say, and it is indeed a cause celebre in some gender politics circles.


Beletseri  Friday Nov 15 04:47 PM

My personal belief is that you are more defined by what is in your brain (what you think you are and what you are attracted to) than by any dangly bits or the lack thereof.

As for hermaphrodites, what gender does your friend identify with?



MaggieL  Friday Nov 15 05:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Beletseri
My personal belief is that you are more defined by what is in your brain...
True enough. But when we speak of "homosexual vs. heterosexual relationships" (whatver that actually means), what's in the mind of *both* participants is important. In the case in question, both players saw a heterosexual relationship; what the spectators think in retrospect doesn't count for much.


BrianR  Saturday Nov 16 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Beletseri
My personal belief is that you are more defined by what is in your brain (what you think you are and what you are attracted to) than by any dangly bits or the lack thereof.

As for hermaphrodites, what gender does your friend identify with?
I'm somewhat at a loss to answer that Beletseri...it refuses to even allow gender-specific pronouns. And I'm at a loss to decide wether or not I should be holding the door!

From my own personal views, it leans towards the feminine, which really comes as no surprise to most of us. It tells me that it's female reproductive systems are operational but it isn't sure about it's male ones. It gets erections, acheives orgasm and ejaculates like a male, but does not know if it produces viable sperm from it's (undescended) testicles.

It also can have intercourse like a female, but has a harder time with orgasm (still no surprise) since it lacks a true clitoris. (insert witty misogynistic female sex joke here) :p

It makes me think more about this thread that it really deserves, but I'm actually considering inviting it to the Cellar just to get it into this thread and offer it's uh, unique insights here.

Brian


Beletseri  Saturday Nov 16 06:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianR


It makes me think more about this thread that it really deserves, but I'm actually considering inviting it to the Cellar just to get it into this thread and offer it's uh, unique insights here.

Brian
I think that would be terrific. If I remember my developmental anatomy, the male penis is the homologous tissue to the female clitoris. but someone should check me on that.

So your friend really is hermaphroditic even in his/her brain. Sorry, I just can't refer to a person as it.


philgump  Saturday Nov 16 08:59 PM

IMHO

This is just my simple opinion. If you have an XY chromosome then you are male if it is YY then you are female. That is it. Simple DNA tests can be done to determine this. Now granted there are certain things that can adversely affect this such as Turner's Syndrome or Klinefelter Syndrome as well as several other unnamed and named X&Y chromosomal disorders.

If someone suffers one of these disorders then perhaps I can see where one would say they are trans-sexed. I am under the impression from looking at MaggieL that he/she does not suffer from any of the aforementioned conditions, although I could be wrong.

I know this may make some people mad but you can't just choose; there is VERY clear science on what makes a man and what makes a woman.

Besides all that. That is not what this whole thing is about it is about the absurdity of having specialized 'Gay Games" if you think about it even sounds absurd. I mean it is a free world and you can do what you want. . . .but I have the right to laugh my ass of at you doing it. Freedom has a bitchy way like that.



Beletseri  Saturday Nov 16 09:09 PM

Here is the origin of the bits.
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/sexdev.html

As you can see, it isn't as simple as XX XY, Oh and Philgump, you might want to make use of the edit function.



MaggieL  Saturday Nov 16 09:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianR

From my own personal views, it leans towards the feminine...
Well, remeber female is the default; male is the differentiated form.
But jeepers...with all the <a href="http://www.aetherlumina.com/gnp/">gender-neutral pronoun systems</a> in use, can't we do better than "it"?
Quote:

...does not know if it produces viable sperm from it's (undescended) testicles.
Undescended testicles tend not to be fertile; temperature control is important. But it's easy enough to check; all one needs is access to an optical microscope...and a sample, of course. Fertile semen is easy to see.


MaggieL  Saturday Nov 16 09:54 PM

Re: IMHO

Quote:
Originally posted by philgump

I am under the impression from looking at MaggieL that he/she does not suffer from any of the aforementioned conditions, although I could be wrong.
My genome has never been sequenced, so I'm pretty sure you're talking though your hat here. I don't claim to be genetically intersexed, but in fact I don't know, and certainly *you* don't.

Are you actually basing your diagnosis on *pictrues* on my web site, Doctor?
Quote:

I know this may make some people mad but you can't just choose; there is VERY clear science on what makes a man and what makes a woman.
No one could possibly make such a flat statement who has actually studied any of the science involved. Unless we're talking "science" in the same abused sense in which people say "creation science"...considering your apparent standards for diagnostic data, I suppose that might be the case.

It is indeed not simply a matter of choice...there's nothing simple about it. Or painless. Or inexpensive.

In view of the fact that both the State of Pennsylvania and the Federal Avation Administration have taken legal note of my reassigned gender, I find your use of "he/she" in reference to me to be intentionally rude.

"Sin of pride" indeed...


BrianR  Saturday Nov 16 10:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL

Undescended testicles tend not to be fertile; temperature control is important. But it's easy enough to check; all one needs is access to an optical microscope...and a sample, of course. Fertile semen is easy to see.
I can't resist adding "and taste". Seriously, I knew that and if they're over about 94 deg F then they are infertile. And I hate to think of the consequences of self-fertilization...



The pronoun issue is not my doing folks...it insists on using "it" to refer to itself...and I've spent quite some time getting used to that. And it still sticks in my Neanderthal throat.

All I wanted to know is: Do I hold the door and pick up the check or not?

Brian


Zorg  Sunday Nov 17 03:39 AM

While I realize that sexual identification is a very complex subject, and that transvestitism is a recognized medical area, human gender is simply not nearly as fluid as MaggieL would have you believe.

No matter what sort of lifestyle you live, what sort of surgery or treatment you subject yourself to, if you were born with a Y chromosomeyou will be biologically male, and therefore (primarily) mentally male, for all of time.


What philgump is trying to say is basically, don't wear your sexual preference(or any other group identification) on your sleeve, or as a chip on your shoulder. He seems to want gays to be judged just as everyone else is, on their individual merits, not to which tribe they belong to.

MaggieL is obviously deeply involved in the gay-lesbian-transgender 'lifestyle'. She seems to think that being a member of that community means that mainstream acceptance or conformity is not only not necessary but even unacceptable. It's this sort of divisive fractionalism, this "us against them" mentality which I think is a bad idea. As long as you've divided people into "queers" and "straights" there will never be widespread acceptance of homosexuality.

For example, it isn't as simple as "homosexual" and "heterosexual". MaggieL is more Quentin Crisp, philgump is more Rock Hudson. Lumping all the "queers" together does a disserve to everyone.



Beletseri  Sunday Nov 17 07:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zorg
No matter what sort of lifestyle you live, what sort of surgery or treatment you subject yourself to, if you were born with a Y chromosomeyou will be biologically male, and therefore (primarily) mentally male, for all of time.
So genetics is destiny? Even genetisists don't believe that these days. Since the development of the brain sexual areas and those of the peripheral organs happen at different times and under different hormonal influences they are only loosely tied together. If the genetic program goes right, the brain identity and preference tends to match up with the external organs. Since development is a complicated process sometimes things don't proceed per the genetic blue print. Also sometimes other genes (not necessarily found on the sex chromosomes) effect the outcome differentially.

I don't see how you can say that someone who thinks and feels like a woman despite being XY has less insight into their own head than you do. How the heck do you know that they are primarily mentally male? What does that mean anyway? This insistence that everything is black and white or male and female is very naive.


MaggieL  Sunday Nov 17 03:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zorg

No matter what sort of lifestyle you live, what sort of surgery or treatment you subject yourself to, if you were born with a Y chromosomeyou will be biologically male, and therefore (primarily) mentally male, for all of time.
Tell that to the "man" with androgen insensitivity syndrome who's had a Y chromosome all "his" life and didn't know it. Or the transsexual women whose hypothalmic features match typical female patterns more closely than many XX women do.

(Actually you can't tell the ones who have actually been examined that way much, they had to be dead before their brains could be examined that way).

"Y-chromosome=male brain" simply isn't true. It's *usually* true, but not *always* true. Y chromosomes *usually* make brains that find women attractive, too. But not always.

The real world is more complicated than that.
Quote:

What philgump is trying to say is basically, don't wear your sexual preference(or any other group identification) on your sleeve...
OK, everybody into unisex clothing, immediately! :-)
Quote:

MaggieL is obviously deeply involved in the gay-lesbian-transgender 'lifestyle'.
What exactly *is* this "gay-lesbian-transgender lifestyle"?

Am I supposed to be living in Key West now? Provincetown? Northhampton? The Castro?

Should I have Judy Garland records? I *do* have a few k.d.lang, and there's even an Indigo Girls CD around here somewhere. Oh, wait...Judy is a gay *male* thing. Indigo Girls and k.d. are for the flannel shirt crowd. Damn....I don't have any flannel shirts either.

I suppose I should drop out of the amateur radio club, even though I'll be on their board of directors next year.

Actually, I tend to think of it as my "life". "Lifestyle" is an attempt makes it sound like some sort of superficial, changable ephimera, like a "hairstyle". Straight people have lives, queers "follow a lifestyle".
Quote:

As long as you've divided people into "queers" and "straights" there will never be widespread acceptance of homosexuality.
And as long as you divide people into gentiles and Jews, there will never be widespread acceptance of Judaism, right? :-)


Cam  Sunday Nov 17 03:40 PM

Quote:
OK, everybody into unisex clothing, immediately! :-)
Just a quick point about that, Zorg did say sexual preference not sex. So he's actually pretty much right in that part of his statement, unless you believe gays should dress differently.

Though the rest of his statement is wrong since group identification quite often is associate with clothing, in fact some religions have requirements on what people can or cannot wear.


elSicomoro  Sunday Nov 17 04:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL
Am I supposed to be living in Key West now? Provincetown? Northhampton? The Castro?
If I become mayor of Philadelphia next year, I'm going to divide it into sectors: Black, White, Hispanic, Gay, Jew, Russian, and Indian. And if the lesbians and transgendered want their own sections apart from gay men, we'll discuss it.


Nic Name  Sunday Nov 17 05:50 PM

This might be true.

Quote:
Dr. Janis Ashley told a Sedalia, Missouri, newspaper in 1989 that she would shortly have a sex-change operation so that she could find a wife and raise a family. She had been a woman for eleven years, following her first sex change.
I read it on the Internet.


elSicomoro  Sunday Nov 17 05:58 PM

Re: This might be true.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nic Name
I read it on the Internet.
I only saw two references for it, both from the same place.

If it IS true, I wonder if she's been in Sedalia all her life. It's a fucking podunk town an hour west of Kansas City...it's home to the Missouri State Fair. They don't take too kindly to "funny" people out in them parts.


MaggieL  Sunday Nov 17 07:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
If I become mayor of Philadelphia next year, I'm going to divide it into sectors: Black, White, Hispanic, Gay, Jew, Russian, and Indian. And if the lesbians and transgendered want their own sections apart from gay men, we'll discuss it.
That'll never work....some of the lesbians are transsexual women. And some of them are black. I can tell you for sure some of the gay guys are transsexual men. There no shortage of gay Jews, either.

As I see it, the only solution is to give the bisexual transsexual women all-access passes. :-)
Quote:
Originally posted by Cam

Just a quick point about that, Zorg did say sexual preference not sex. So he's actually pretty much right in that part of his statement, unless you believe gays should dress differently.
Only if they feel like it. My point was that gender is <i>The Mother of All Group Identifications</i>; when people meet you it's the first box they check on their mental form....and people definately expect to to dress accordingly. There are still laws in some jurisdictions against crossdressing.

I sure was glad when PennDOT finally issued me a drivers licence that caught up with my birth certifcate. If I was stopped by Officer Dullard on an isolated southern road, I didn't want to stiill have an "M" in the "sex" box, even if I pass a physical as female now. The update card they originally issued wouldn't help much in that situation...:-)

As for the Janice Ashley story, I suppose it may be true, but female-to-male surgery still pretty much sucks. I'd want to see it somewhere besides "News of the Wierd" before I beleived it. There have been a few cases of gender detransition, but never to my knowlege among folks who followed the http://www.hbigda.org/soc.html]HBIGDA Standards of Care[/url]


elSicomoro  Sunday Nov 17 07:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL
That'll never work....some of the lesbians are transsexual women. And some of them are black. I can tell you for sure some of the gay guys are transsexual men. There no shortage of gay Jews, either.
I thought about that originally...some would obviously need multiple sector passes. After all, what the hell would Rho and I do?


Beletseri  Sunday Nov 17 07:31 PM

Hey, I"m a straight white women but I don't want to just hang out with straight white women and men. Can I have an all sector pass too?



MaggieL  Sunday Nov 17 09:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
I thought about that originally...some would obviously need multiple sector passes. After all, what the hell would Rho and I do?
Dunno, but whatever you do, you're apparently not allowed to flaunt it. :-)

By the way, I had to look up who Quentin Crisp was. I remeber him from <i>Orlando</i> now. Can't say I feel any particular resonance there. His cereal is too sweet, too; I prefer Cocoa Puffs. :-)


philgump  Monday Nov 18 01:39 AM

Sin of Pride

umm I never mentioned a "Sin of Pride". I think I mentioned a "Sin of Tolerance". By the way a sin of pride is not what you think. A sin of pride does work with human situations, it only works if you are so prideful as to think that you do not need God and that you as a human can do it alone. That is the "Sin of Pride" you mentioned.

As far as he or she that is about the only pronouns I have up my sleeve unless 'IT' would be more preferable and you have already said that 'IT' was unacceptable.

I have always been taught, that you should never offer up a problem without offering up a soulution. Therefore, what pronoun do you prefer people to use when speaking about or to you.



elSicomoro  Monday Nov 18 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Beletseri
Hey, I"m a straight white women but I don't want to just hang out with straight white women and men. Can I have an all sector pass too?
Yeah, but you'll have to pay a bit extra for it.


MaggieL  Monday Nov 18 11:39 AM

Hmmm.

Let's not forget the Ellen deGeneris Toaster Oven Award....might make any surcharge worthwhile, if a kickback can be arranged. :-)



elSicomoro  Monday Nov 18 08:39 PM

Sorry Mags...you lost me on that one...Toaster Oven award? Is that like an El Camino?



MaggieL  Monday Nov 18 11:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
Sorry Mags...you lost me on that one...Toaster Oven award? Is that like an El Camino?
Lemme just crib what I wrote on one of the Pink Pistols lists where one of the straight members didn't get a "toaster oven" joke.

<blockquote>
In 1997, when Ellen deGeneris' character "Ellen Morgan" on the ABC sitcom "Ellen" discovers that she is a lesbian...
<blockquote>
"There's a moment in the first half hour of the show in which Laura Dern's character, Susan, dealing with Ellen in full-blown homosexual panic <i>[ after rejecting the advances of a man on a date, and Susan's making a pass at Ellen, who realizes to her dismay that the idea seems much more appealing to her than the man did --ml ]</i> cracks a joke about her failure to "recruit" Ellen for the lesbian cause. "Damn," she says, as the laugh-track explodes, "just one more and I would have gotten that toaster oven!" "Is that gay humor?" Ellen asks, "`cause I don't get it. That's how un-gay I am." Later in the episode, Ellen tells Susan that she "got the joke" just before she comes out, and the end of the episode features a cameo of Melissa Etheridge signing Ellen up as a lesbian and giving Susan the longed-for toaster oven.
</blockquote>
http://www.brown.edu/Administration/...ds/Torres.html

So that's what the "toaster oven" thing is about. It's a joke about the mistaken idea that every queer person in the world has subscribed to a "homosexual agenda" that includes recruiting as many people to homosexuality as possible, and that this invidious campaign is so organized that there's actually a catalog from which you can select incentive awards.
</blockquote>

Now what's this about an El Camino? I know about Mary Kay and the pink Caddy, but El Camino?


arz  Tuesday Nov 19 11:34 AM

Education

I learn so much stuff on this site.



elSicomoro  Tuesday Nov 19 09:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL
Now what's this about an El Camino? I know about Mary Kay and the pink Caddy, but El Camino?
Putting Ellen DeGeneres and "Toaster Oven" together made me think of "El Camino," which is a term my friends and I used in referring to a bisexual. (Is it a car? Is it a truck? It's both.) Of course, now that I know what you mean, it sounds silly...but might sound more appropriate if Ellen were substituted with Anne Heche.


wolf  Tuesday Nov 19 09:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lawman


....let the flames begin!.....
flames? at the gay games? go figure ...


wolf  Tuesday Nov 19 09:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by perth

why? what do they play?

i dunno about lesbian gay bars, but the male gay bar i was taken to to photograph a drag show alternated between "It's Raining Men" and Abba's greatest hits ...


MaggieL  Wednesday Nov 20 12:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
Putting Ellen DeGeneres and "Toaster Oven" together made me think of "El Camino," which is a term my friends and I used in referring to a bisexual. (Is it a car? Is it a truck? It's both.) Of course, now that I know what you mean, it sounds silly...but might sound more appropriate if Ellen were substituted with Anne Heche.
True, Anne wasn't in the show. :-)

Not quite sure what to say about the "El Camino" rifff, there's something strikes me odd at the core of it; sort of that SNL classic "Shimmer: it's a desert toppping....it's a floor wax".

Maybe it's the thought that the El Camino in trying to be both a car and a truck is somehow compromised in either role. Certainly from the inside, being bi doesn't feel like a compromise at all; it feels more like a gift, like being bilingual or ambidexterous. I don't appreciate men less for being into women, nor does my (admittedly still developing) eye for guys interefere with my attraction to women.

A theory held by many experts in sexuality is that most people have the inherent *potential* to express themselves sexually with either men or women....and that the amount of bimodality in the distribution across the Kinsey orientation scale is a measure of the sexual repressiveness of a society; a more repressive society kind of squeezes folks into two lumps at the extremes of the scale where monosexuality of both kinds is found. Of course, after years of social conditioning in thet environment, the ability to explore that potiential is severely inhibited. (Which doesn't keep it from breaking loose in some folks later in life.)

The theory makes sense to me, and certainly explains some of the bad treatement bi people get not only at the hand of heterosexuals, but also from homosexuals, who you might think would somehow "know better". But you'd be wrong...


philgump  Wednesday Nov 20 04:34 PM

Original Posted by MaggieL

"So that's what the "toaster oven" thing is about. It's a joke about the mistaken idea that every queer person in the world has subscribed to a "homosexual agenda" that includes recruiting as many people to homosexuality as possible, and that this invidious campaign is so organized that there's actually a catalog from which you can select incentive awards. "

Well, this idea could not have been helped by the slogans that were (and are still) widely seen at Gay pride events and all over the Gay scene that say "10% is not enough! Recruit! Recruit! Recruit!" Think I am lying look it up just type in the quote "10% is not enough! Recruit! Recruit! Recruit!" and see the results you get.



MaggieL  Wednesday Nov 20 04:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by philgump
Think I am lying look it up just type in the quote "10% is not enough! Recruit! Recruit! Recruit!" and see the results you get.
Well, the results *I* get are all at anti-gay sites....except one article from the Swarthmore Queer Union entitled "Article Misrepresents Queer Community".

I 'm not saying you're lying, but I would certainly think any queer person would know that "recruiting" is both a silly idea and doesn't work, and would recoginize that anybody chanting such a slogan was joking....just as the Ellen show was.

I've been reisting saying anything about this up till now, but at this point I admit that the more you post, the more skeptical I become about you really being who you say you are.

Anyway...how did *you* get recruited, and why didn't you resist enough, Phil? After all, if people can be "recruited" to being gay--if someone can be "talked into it"-- it must simply be a matter of choice, right?


philgump  Thursday Nov 21 01:58 AM

Recruits

Who said that I thought you could be recruited? I said that signs like this have been seen in gay pride parades. I mean gays already have a bad rap when it comes to being child molesters, recruiters and perverted minds. Now granted I do not know of one gay that is a child molester, tried to recruit someone, or has a perverted mind. . . wait take that last one back. :-)

My point is if you have a reputation, even if you got it falsely you would not want to perpetuate it by egging on the accusers. (i.e. if you are the president and you are accused of sleeping with your aides, that would not be the time to take one of your aides on a Caribbean cruise.) Even though you might mean it as a joke the people viewing you are going to say “See I told you!”

Does that make sense? I just don’t think that sarcasm and facetiousness are the ways to achieve tolerance. Maybe it is just me.



MaggieL  Thursday Nov 21 02:49 AM

Re: Recruits

Quote:
Originally posted by philgump

I just don’t think that sarcasm and facetiousness are the ways to achieve tolerance. Maybe it is just me.
Maybe it *is* just you. I think tolerance is something that can only be achieved by the intolerant themselves. I don't think I should allow them to try make their satisfaction my responsibility. Am I not supposed to joke with my friends for fear some bluenose is going to misconstrue it?

I just don't think there's any amount of being a good nigger that *is* going to satisfy them (with the possible exception of appearing on TV and testifying about how you "got straight again through Jesus"). So why let them call the tune?

I certainly don't intend to look for ways to steer my life based on what the homophobes might think of it. I value my opinions more highly than I do theirs.


elSicomoro  Sunday Nov 24 11:05 PM

I only caught the tail end of this show, but it's on again at 1am ET, and again in late December, on the Discovery Channel: Changing Sexes: Male to Female. It looks rather interesting.



MaggieL  Monday Nov 25 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
I only caught the tail end of this show...
Thanks for the heads-up. This was one I actually hadn't seen before...and it's probably the best show of it's kind on transsexuality that I've seen to date. Their facts were pretty much right on. They even managed to interview Swaab, I think that's a first.

I do have to wonder if they're in sweeps though; it was put on right after a show on dwarfism. :-)


Tobiasly  Monday Nov 25 03:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL
I do have to wonder if they're in sweeps though; it was put on right after a show on dwarfism. :-)
Nah, if it were sweeps, they would have combined them into a 2-hour special on transgender dwarfs.


MaggieL  Monday Nov 25 06:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tobiasly

Nah, if it were sweeps, they would have combined them into a 2-hour special on transgender dwarfs.
Let's see...guesses on the incidence of transsexuality run from 1 in 1e4 to 1 in 3e4. Genetic dwarfism is given as 1 in 1e4. So...assuming the tendencies are independant, this would give a joint incidence of around 1:2e8...in a population of 300 million, this *might* yield two individuals if you were lucky.

So...one hour on each one? I don't think so.

Let's consider the obligatory jokes about "tail end of the show" and "short subject" to have been made. :-)


elSicomoro  Monday Nov 25 10:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL
I do have to wonder if they're in sweeps though; it was put on right after a show on dwarfism. :-)
Before the show on dwarfism was one on obese people.

I watched it at 1...definitely interesting. I have to give props to Jonni (the wife of Angela, the air force pilot that went through the operation). She seemed very interested in the whole process and non-judgmental...what a great support system to have.


MaggieL  Tuesday Nov 26 12:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
I have to give props to Jonni...
Yeah, she was pretty amazing. The voiceover about "ego strength" was very appropos; most spouses don't have that much, and I do admit it's calls for quite a lot.

But to *watch* the surgery? I dunno. I'm glad I was asleep for mine, and I had not much interest in seeing anybody else's. Yuk. A close friend of mine used to yank my chain about how green I got when surgical video was shown at a gender support group many years ago. And yet her surgery only happened this June. Funny how things work out sometimes.

Gwennie and I were speculating that Jonni was probably a nurse or an MD. In fact, my own ex was fascinated by some of the goings on at the hospital where my work was eventually done, when we were there with somebody else several years before my own surgery.

I did also note that Jonni's personal energy seemed fairly butch...even to her chosen nickname. These things aren't accidental.


MaggieL  Tuesday Nov 26 10:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL
I do have to wonder if they're in sweeps though...
Sweeps were November 18-24, so <i>Changing Sexes: Male to Female</i> was indeed aired on the last day of sweeps. So we're controversial enough to generate eyeballs for advertisers, but too controversial for insurance to cover the surgical costs...unless you're a union member, that is. C'est la vie.


Tobiasly  Wednesday Nov 27 12:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL
So we're controversial enough to generate eyeballs for advertisers, but too controversial for insurance to cover the surgical costs
Wow.. you actually think insurance should pay for transgender surgery? Based on what grounds?


Beletseri  Wednesday Nov 27 02:21 PM

They pay to correct other birth defects. Maggie, do they pay for procedures to correct hermaphordites?



Tobiasly  Wednesday Nov 27 02:30 PM

If you go with that rationale, who will determine on a case-by-case basis, those for whom this birth defect exists?

Even if you want to make that argument, there are many types of birth defects. Insurance companies pay for life-threatening or medically necessary defects, but they don't pay for quality-of-life procedures.

Some people would consider being born ugly a birth defect. Do you think insurance companies should pay for them to have plastic surgery?



MaggieL  Wednesday Nov 27 03:19 PM

Oh, dear....yet another can of worms.

Do I think insurance "should" cover reassignment? Well....given that I consider it an effective treatment for a medically-recognized condition: yes.

Do I *expect* it? Absolutely not...I've worked for insurance companies, and given how few people this affects, what happens is they specifically exclude it in the plan language, and not enough people care about it to make them change it, so the current situation is likely to continue.

I *do* know people who have had insurance that was good enough that it was covered. As it happened, my company mereged with another just before my surgery, and we of course got the lowest-common-denominator coverage. The company we mereged with had just had an employee whose surgery was covered. Mine wasn't. C'est la vie, like I said.

Those who have or are about to hold forth on "cosmetic surgery" I remind that not all plastic surgery is "cosmetic" surgery...reconstruction after an accident, for example. There's plenty of women who have gotten breast augmentation--or reduction, for that matter--covered as "medically necessary".

As for "birth defect", there's enough controversy about that, too. Until the etiology of transsexualism is *much* better established than it is today--today there are only theories, with sketchy experimental evidence--I don't think universal acceptance of it as a "birth defect" is within realistic reach.

Typically, (and the well-moneyed folk who appeared in the Discovery channel show are *not* typical) TS folks are not in a position to engage in a long legal battle with their insurance companies to establish that reassignment surgery is "medically necessary"...especially when the insurance company is perfectly willing to invest in expert witnesses (mostly from Johns Hopkins, originally a center for treatment for gender dysphoria but now the mecca for the anti-SRS crew) who are happy to testify that it isn't.

The insurance companies will spend a *whole* lot more than the $20K or so they'd be out for covering one case to keep this one off the books. So an individual could spend *all* the money that would pay for their surgery, plus quite a bit more, and then still end up with nothing to show for it.

Personally, I thought my SRS was "medically necessary", and so-voted with $13K of my own money. I also think it should have been covered, but I do know that most people--who really have no idea what gender dysphoria is--would disagree.

Of course, I don't think I "should" have to pay for lung cancer treatment for smokers either--but have accepted that I have to, because the incidence of that is so much higher: just about everybody knows someone who killed themselves with cigarettes.

It's really a political issue--a matter of how many people something like this affects.



Your reply here?

The Cellar Image of the Day is just a section of a larger web community: a bunch of interesting folks talking about everything. Add your two cents to IotD by joining the Cellar.