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   Undertoad  Friday Nov 22 02:33 PM

11/22/2002: The Petersburg Orchid



This is a Petersburg Orchid, a toy breed of dog that weighs in at about 4 pounds and costs around $1000. In Russia.

It's a new breed, possibly a mix of a yorkie and a stalk of broccoli.

It's been one of Yahoo!s Most Popular images this week, which probably indicates that a lot of people saw the thumbnail and just had to see what the hell it was.

The nice thing about this turn of events is that the Russians are becoming interested in small dogs specifically because they are bourgoise. In the Communist USSR, only larger dogs were in favor. Now a dog can be something that only returns love and doesn't have to be a working dog.




Cam  Friday Nov 22 02:39 PM

I'll stick with my loving mutt I think.



dave  Friday Nov 22 02:40 PM

I would buy one of those in a second. I like dogs pretty okay, but man... I bet you could teach it to use a litter pan and everything. It'd be like a mini-cat... only a dog.



hermit22  Friday Nov 22 04:13 PM

My roommate has a 2.5 pound chihuahua that uses a litter box and prefers cat food. You'd swear she actually is a cat.



juju  Friday Nov 22 04:30 PM

I don't understand the whole pet thing. Seems like slavery to me.



perth  Friday Nov 22 04:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
I don't understand the whole pet thing. Seems like slavery to me.
i know! seems like all i ever do is change out that damn cats litter box, refill her food and water dish or scratch her back! god i feel so used!

~james


Senor Oso  Friday Nov 22 05:00 PM

I think I'll get one of these. Then I'll make a little basket with a harness, kind of like you see on elephants, and put it on my St. Bernard. Then the little toy dog can ride around like, um, like one of those guys who rides around on elephants.

What are those guys called? It's on the tip of my tongue, or the tip of my brain anyway.



MaggieL  Friday Nov 22 05:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Senor Oso
Then the little toy dog can ride around like, um, like one of those guys who rides around on elephants.

What are those guys called? It's on the tip of my tongue, or the tip of my brain anyway.
Mahout <i>Ma*hout", n.</i> [Hind. mah=awat, Skr. mah=am=atra;]
mahat great + m=atr=a measure.
The keeper and driver of an elephant. East Indies


warch  Friday Nov 22 05:53 PM

It has the sad Russian eyes.



warch  Friday Nov 22 06:07 PM

Let me see if I can get this comparison up...



Beletseri  Friday Nov 22 10:25 PM

They have the same facial hair too.



wolf  Friday Nov 22 11:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
I don't understand the whole pet thing. Seems like slavery to me.
Cats will play with and kill roaches.

Dumber cats will eat them.

Does pet ownership make more sense to you now?


elSicomoro  Friday Nov 22 11:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
I don't understand the whole pet thing. Seems like slavery to me.
Perhaps one day, we will be the pets of a greater being...remember the song "Pets" by Porno for Pyros?


Zorg  Saturday Nov 23 08:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
I don't understand the whole pet thing. Seems like slavery to me.
That's because you're obviously a sociopath who is unable to understand how a human being could fashion an emotional link to an animal(or, another human for that matter).

"I don't understand the whole marriage thing. Seems like rape to me."


blowmeetheclown  Saturday Nov 23 09:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
I don't understand the whole pet thing. Seems like slavery to me.
Locking someone in your house for years on end and feeding them dry cereal and occasional trash seems odd to you? Freak!


elSicomoro  Saturday Nov 23 12:20 PM

Hey...wait a minute...I think Zorg is on to something here...I think juju is a sociopath!

Seriously though, Juju, why do you think pet ownership is akin to slavery?



juju  Saturday Nov 23 05:51 PM

Because, they're not given a choice of where they live or what they eat. You're forcing both on them.

Also, I'm viciously allergic to cats, and was also allergic to dogs as a child. I was never allowed to own a pet because of this, so I never learned how to "bond" with a dumb animal. I guess that's why I really don't get it.

Also, there are these people who think their pets can "talk". I really don't understand them, either. Sure, you can get some information from their behavior, but when the dog is barking, why bother pretending that it's really perfectly understandable speech?

And what about these people who dress their dogs up in clothes? Weird. Just weird.



Cam  Saturday Nov 23 06:22 PM

Juju, if you had ever owned a pet I guarantee you that you would see things differently. There are very few things that can beat coming home after a long trip and having your dog waiting for you. I lived on a farm and our dog could have run away if she wanted to but she stayed right there and was always excited when we pulled up.
As for the food thing, I can see your point, though if you didn't feed them they would end up starving, it's not like most domestic breeds of dogs are great hunters.
But since you didn't have the opportunit to "bond with a dumb animal" I'll let you get by thinking that owning pets are akin to slavery.



Beletseri  Saturday Nov 23 08:09 PM

I'd like to come back as one of my pet ferrets. Sheesh what a cushy life they have!



Leus  Saturday Nov 23 10:00 PM

Having a pet it's really good therapy. I used to come home after long work hours, and wanted nothing but go to bed. Now I work the same amount of hours, but taking my dog out and see she running around, <strike>killing little animals</strike> playing with kids and just doing whatever it's the most relaxing thing.

I own a cute Rottweiler, btw



helen  Sunday Nov 24 01:09 AM

Depends on the pet.

Personally:
xxxx amount of cats.........don't know, don't really care but wouldn't leave one in the gutter to die.
2 sheps.......guard dogs.
1 alpine goat.............pain in the ass...literally.....childs pet though.
3 horses............these I care about and have a connection to.
1 bird...never mind.



elSicomoro  Sunday Nov 24 04:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
Because, they're not given a choice of where they live or what they eat. You're forcing both on them.
Imagine if all those dogs and cats were on the street...you'd probably be at a greater risk of contracting a disease from them, or getting injured by one. So, by confining a variety of animals, you are better off. Doesn't that sound nice?

Giving a dog good healthy dog food allows them to live to their fullest. It's a lot better than eating leftover scraps that might have already been infested by flies, yet again protecting you the human.

Quote:
Also, I'm viciously allergic to cats, and was also allergic to dogs as a child. I was never allowed to own a pet because of this, so I never learned how to "bond" with a dumb animal. I guess that's why I really don't get it.
Many animals are incredibly intelligent, such as gorillas and elephants...oh, and humans.

You didn't watch "Lassie" as a child, did you?

Timmy and Lassie went roaming the countryside, having a great old time fishing, exploring, etc. Sometimes, Timmy got caught in bad situations (a foot in a bear trap, sinking in quicksand, etc.), and Lassie would either try to help Timmy on her own, or go for help. Now granted, that's happy feel-good TV, but that sort of thing does occur with human and animal. If a dog helps save your life, or helps you live your life (a seeing-eye dog), can you understand how people might form an attachment with their animals?

For some people, pets are like children. They feed them, and love them, and even dress some of them. And you even have a few that take their pets to psychologists. Now, some of those things may sound a bit extreme to many of us, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

Why don't you head over to the library at that school of yours? A school like Arkansas should have a PsychLit database. Head over there, and put in some search parameters like "pets and well-being." You'll be amazed.

If you are allergic to dogs and cats, you should talk to your doctor about a prescription such as Claritin or Allegra. Besides, $20 says your sorry ass STILL hasn't seen the doc about your suspected hypoglycemia. Remember, you ARE listed in the phone book...do we need to call your wife?


Griff  Sunday Nov 24 09:12 AM

Lets see, 2 dogs, 1cat, 17chickens, 2geese, and a fish. I used to be anti-cat until we had a red squirel infestation here. I was shooting, poisoning, mustard gassing until Ray decided to step in. Good Kitty. We're talking cattle/sheep/goats/bees, I'm gonna take Helens comment as one vote against goats.



Cam  Sunday Nov 24 01:04 PM

Griff you seriuosly don't consider your chickens pets do you. And geese are just plain mean.



juju  Sunday Nov 24 04:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
Imagine if all those dogs and cats were on the street...you'd probably be at a greater risk of contracting a disease from them, or getting injured by one. So, by confining a variety of animals, you are better off. Doesn't that sound nice?
Confining people against their will doesn't sound nice. How about if I lock you up in my basement? Doesn't that sound nice?

And who says they have to live in the street? There are thousands of species of animals that live in the wild quite successfully. Why aren't you concerned about contracting disease from or getting injured by those other animals? Would I be better off keeping a gimp locked up in the basement? Hey, that's one less feral homeless person out there that might attack me!

I realize that animals aren't as smart as humans. So perhaps it's just the natural order of things that we control them. I'm cool with that, really I am. But I still call them like I see them. We control our pets. They're subservient to us. They may enjoy our company and love us, but it's definitely not a partnership of equals. It's one animal dominating another.

I realize that pets make a lot of humans happy. I don't doubt that. I'm mostly addressing the happiness and freedom of the pet, though. I'm sure african slaves made a lot of rich white men happy, too. In the case of pets, it all works out, because pets are too stupid to ask for their freedom back.


Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
For some people, pets are like children. They feed them, and love them, and even dress some of them. And you even have a few that take their pets to psychologists. Now, some of those things may sound a bit extreme to many of us, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that.
You know, I think the practice of raising children is also slavery. It's most definitely a necessary practice, but it's still slavery. See, just because you love the person whom you're controlling, that doesn't negate the fact that you're still dominating them. Having children is one of the few forms of moral slavery we have left.

Also, just so I don't have to go through and carefully alter my language, i'm just going to state it here: I admit that I could be wrong! This is just the world the way I see it. I'm not saying, "This IS the way it is". Well, okay, maybe I did say that, but I didn't mean it. What I meant was, "It seems to me like it might be this way."


Nic Name  Sunday Nov 24 04:46 PM

Apparently, like Cam, juju doesn't consider chickens to be on the same level as other animals we enslave as pets.

Quote:
Posted by juju in the Bird Strike thread at the same time as the sympathetic post above:

That would be so sweet.

It would be all like, "BwgaaaAAwwk!! .... **THUMP***"

hehehehe
Interesting, that's the same attitude that makes cockfighting legal in OK. Some judge ruled that chickens aren't animals!

Gotta go now ... and make myself a chicken sandwich!


juju  Sunday Nov 24 04:53 PM

I never claimed to be an animal lover.



Nic Name  Sunday Nov 24 05:06 PM

Domestication is a darwinian plot

Quote:
It may not be news to dog owners, but now it can be said with scientific assurance: Centuries of selective breeding have created an animal that in some respects, at least, understands us even better than our closest primate cousins.

"It looks like there's been direct selection for dogs with the ability to read social cues in humans," said Brian Hare, a Harvard biological anthropologist who led the behavior study.

Scientists suspect that wolves hung around human hunter gatherers long before the first one was domesticated, perhaps in the hope of stealing scraps of food. Eventually, the theory goes, humans cajoled a few to help with hunting or guarding and began breeding those that proved to be the best companions.

Domestication, of course, is a matter of perspective. Some experts suspect that a few clever wolves initiated the process, recognizing that free food and a warm home beats living in the wild. But while scientists may never know the motivations behind domestication, they have doggedly pursued its timing and location.
Your dog has you all figured out


Tobiasly  Sunday Nov 24 05:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
I admit that I could be wrong!
I second that motion. You simply cannot understand until you own a pet yourself. While you're at the library, look up a book on dog behavior. Dogs are social animals; they require the attention and companionship of others. That's the result of thousands of years of their being pack animals.

Their social order and sense of well-being requires that every pack has a leader. That's just the way it works. They don't mind not being the leader, as long as there is a leader in their pack. In domesticated dogs, that "pack" is their human family, and they look up to their owner as their leader.


This is Aloysius. I never really knew what the expression "follow like a lost puppy" meant until we got him. He never goes anywhere unless my wife or I are there too. He won't even leave the room to go eat unless one of us is goes with him.

Does this mean his quality of life is any worse than if that leader were another dog? Let's see, he gets high-quality food three times a day (anyone who thinks pet food is "trash" should go see how much it costs, and what sort of quality control it has to go through). He gets almost constant affection from Elizabeth and me. He gets chew toys to help exercise his teeth, treats when he goes to the bathroom outside, medical care, and plenty of exercise. Seems pretty much like a win-win situation.

And as far as it being "slavery".. Al has gotten out from our fence before, but he didn't run away. He just stayed at the house, waiting for us to return. Just like Cam, who lived on a farm where the dog could have run away. How is that slavery?


dave  Sunday Nov 24 05:39 PM

I'm going to agree with juju that having pets is akin to slavery. My cats own my ass. Gotta get their food, change their litter, give them massages... I only wish I had it so good.



Griff  Sunday Nov 24 05:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cam
Griff you seriuosly don't consider your chickens pets do you. And geese are just plain mean.
They cease to be pets somewhere between the axe and the roaster. Geese are really no fun to have around. I'm open to suggestions if anyone has a good recipe, until then they can do perimeter security.


juju  Sunday Nov 24 06:07 PM

That same rationalization was also used in the 1800's for slavery. "They like it", "it makes them happy", "They've got it good". All these are very similar to what everyone said back then. It's also the same rationalization that people use to deprive the mentally ill of their freedom.

I'll see if I can find some sources that describe this online. I saw a documentary not too long ago on cultural depictions of blacks, and it talked about how people thought slaves were only happy when they were serving whites. Much of the same stuff.

As to some dogs sticking around when they have the chance to leave. well of course. They don't know any other life. They're practicing what they've known all their life. That doesn't change the fact that they're being deprived of their liberty. I'm not saying it's immoral. I'm just saying it's so. Some dogs do run off, and usually they're re-captured by the gestapo and either killed (oh, I mean "put to sleep"), or returned to their owner's homes.



Cam  Sunday Nov 24 07:05 PM

Another thing that supports the theory that pets usually like to be where they are. I lived on a farm as stated earlier and we had wild cats around. Though it didn't happen often there were a couple times when a cat who was wild, after a little prodding by us(not locking them up) but being fed decided to take up residence.
We've also had Tomcats who took off to prown the countryside for some lovin' who came back after a while, and continued to hang around the house. Now if this cat truely didn't like it it would have stayed away, it knows about the wild, and has the complete freedom to leave, instead he usually came back and stayed around the house for a while.

One other thing that I think sets pet ownership completely apart from slavery. THEY DON'T HAVE TO WORK



juju  Sunday Nov 24 07:08 PM

Ok, so what would it take for an animal to be categorized as a slave? Or can they be categorized as such at all?

What about horses that plow fields? They do manual labor.



sleemanj  Sunday Nov 24 07:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
Because, they're not given a choice of where they live or what they eat. You're forcing both on them.
HAH! I'd like somebody to tell that to my cats ! I don't know about where you live but my cats generally come and go as they please. I have to leave a window open 24/7 so they can get in and out. Sometimes one or two will vanish without a trace for a week or 2 (once it was a month) and then just as you're about to stop looking for them they'll wander in as if nothing ever happened.

And as for eating ! I tried to change thier cat biscuits once to a different (cheaper) brand, I dished it out and they all just looked blankly at the dish, and then back to me, as if to say "what the f*ck is this crap, what the hell are you trying to pull James ?!", after a couple days of silent protest I changed back to the original brand.

Of course, dogs are different they don't get to roam the streets at thier free will, and basically they'll eat anything you put in front of them - but dogs are stupid :-)

I read something once,
Dogs think YOU are god because you feed them.
Cats think THEY are god because you feed them.
I think it's very true :-)


Cam  Sunday Nov 24 07:24 PM

Horses I guess could be classifies as slaves, though I still think this is a ridiculous argument.
I guess my feelings are that unless the one being deprived of freedom is of the same species it can't be considered slavery. Ant's enlave other ants. Ants also raise aphids to get food. Is that slavery I personally don't think so.
Our species has enslaved others of our species. We have also raised animals to be our pets, and to work for us. I have a simple question, if we set all of our pets free, let them do whatever they wanted, and quit feeding them, how many of our poor dogs and cats would live more than a week. I have a guess that not many would.



Tobiasly  Sunday Nov 24 07:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sleemanj
Of course, dogs are different they don't get to roam the streets at thier free will, and basically they'll eat anything you put in front of them.
Hah! I'd like you to tell that to my dog! He's just as picky as any damn cat I've ever seen.

Of course, we now come to find out that he likely has an allergy to beef and/or chicken. And every friggin' dog food and treat in the supermarket has one of those in it. We had to get him a special venison and potatoes dog food to feed him exclusively for 10 weeks to see if it's indeed a food allergy.

Venison and potatoes! And I've had peanut butter sandwiches for like 50% of my meals this week! Of course, this shit's expensive too. Stupid itchy dog.


ladysycamore  Sunday Nov 24 07:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
I'm viciously allergic to cats, and was also allergic to dogs as a child. I was never allowed to own a pet because of this, so I never learned how to "bond" with a dumb animal. I guess that's why I really don't get it.
*cringes at the word dumb for animals*

Sorry about your allergies. Pets are WAY better than having kids, IMO. Nothing better than the unconditional love of a pet, than the ungrateful attitude of another human that you gave life to.

Hey, just calling it as I see it.


Cam  Sunday Nov 24 07:37 PM

Quote:
Interesting, that's the same attitude that makes cockfighting legal in OK. Some judge ruled that chickens aren't animals!
Cock fighting is a bunch of shit, don't even get me started on how ridiculously cruel that is. Roosters are programed to fight, you put two together they are going to fight, I've seen them fight, it's not pretty, but at least in the "wild" the loser can get away. In cock fights the winner isn't going to stop until it leaves, and since the loser can't, it's a fight to the death.


ladysycamore  Sunday Nov 24 07:44 PM

awwwwww lookit!!!!!!!!

[quote]Originally posted by Tobiasly





Oh..my...GOD!! Whatta sweetheart!!! That face!!! *turns all to goo* WOOOGIEWOOOOO!!

Hehe, sorry. Always been a sucker for the "puppy eyes".



Tobiasly  Sunday Nov 24 11:24 PM

Yeah, that's the response he generates in most people



elSicomoro  Sunday Nov 24 11:45 PM

Geese can be evil. They used to attack students at UMSL. They would all sit on the lake...waiting...for the perfect victim. I got shit on 3 times, flown after a couple of times, and tried to kick one once after it flew towards my face.

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
Confining people against their will doesn't sound nice. How about if I lock you up in my basement? Doesn't that sound nice?
Humans are currently at the top of the heap, so for now, we have the right to assert our dominance over "lesser creatures." I'm not saying it's necessarily nice...just the way it is. At the same time, by treating dogs and cats the way we do, I believe that we're actually elevating them to a higher status...they're nearly human for some.

Confining people against their will IS nice if they are criminals. There is no current justification for locking me up in your basement. We're on the same level in the circle of life, nor am I currently considered a threat to society.

Quote:
And who says they have to live in the street? There are thousands of species of animals that live in the wild quite successfully. Why aren't you concerned about contracting disease from or getting injured by those other animals? Would I be better off keeping a gimp locked up in the basement? Hey, that's one less feral homeless person out there that might attack me!
The streets can be the wild for domesticated animals.

And I am concerned about getting injured or contracting disease from animals in the wild. For example, I don't touch stray animals and keep my food high up to protect raccoons from getting into it (if I am camping).

Don't mix apples and oranges, Señor Juju. You keep throwing in humans...we're talking about non-human animals here.


juju  Monday Nov 25 12:19 AM

I see. So if you're not "human", your lot in life is to be dominated. Sounds like predujice to me!

Oh, that's ridiculous, right? Animals don't have rights, because they're just animals. Yet you profess that they're <i>so</i> intelligent and <i>so</i> loving. Intelligence and emotion, yet no rights or status.

Don't you think it's a little contradictory for people to try to tell us that pets are highly intelligent and emotional, and yet they dominate them, buy them, sell them, and own them as property?

They're either things, or they're emotional and intelligent beings. Things deserve to be owned, loving intelligent creatures don't.



elSicomoro  Monday Nov 25 12:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
I see. So if you're not "human", your lot in life is to be dominated.
Yes.

Quote:
Sounds like predujice to me!
It could very well be "prejudice."

Quote:
Oh, that's ridiculous, right? Animals don't have rights, because they're just animals. Yet you profess that they're <i>so</i> intelligent and <i>so</i> loving. Intelligence and emotion, yet no rights or status.
You're not very good at sarcasm juju...keep working on it though.

Could you point out where I mentioned pets having emotion? I'd appreciate it.

Quote:
Don't you think it's a little contradictory for people to try to tell us that pets are highly intelligent and emotional, and yet they dominate them, buy them, sell them, and own them as property?
Not necessarily...at least to me. As I see it, they're different species than us...species that are weaker than us...not as intelligent as us. We're not only taking care of a lesser creature, but protecting ourselves as well.


sleemanj  Monday Nov 25 12:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
They're either things, or they're emotional and intelligent beings. Things deserve to be owned, loving intelligent creatures don't.
Pets are different things to different people, to me, pets are not posessions they are members of your family, you look after them, feed them, love them, when they get sick you take them to the doctor, you provide for thier needs, and in return they give you unconditional love.

To other people pets are posessions, I don't like people like that. For example the type of people who do the cat show/dog show thing, parading the "animal" to vicariously boost thier confidence just make me sick.

I don't own my cats, they are free to come and go as they please (and they do) but if they need food, warmth, comfort, love or help I am always there for them - and they know it, and demonstrate that they know it. They are a member of my family, and I'd like to believe they feel I am a member of thiers.

Edit :
When I say pets I'm talkig traditional cat & dog here. I don't like pets kept in cages/aquariums etc for one reason - if the situation was reversed I would NOT like to live in a cage for my entire life, or even a day - while I wouldn't mind coming back as a cat, they get a pretty nice life by my standards.


CharlieG  Monday Nov 25 08:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
Because, they're not given a choice of where they live or what they eat. You're forcing both on them.
...snip...
Most cats are outdoor cats - they can leave anytime they like - hint, they don't. They actually LIKE us. We give them good food, a warm dry place to live, and lots of love.

Want a REALLY affectionate pet? Take in a stray cat or dog! You will end up with a VERY thankful pet! Something about regular meals they don't have to work for


Griff  Monday Nov 25 09:10 AM

Dogs and people which chose the other?



philgump  Monday Nov 25 12:14 PM

Pet Slaves

JuJu:

First of all the whole nonsense comparison of pets being slaves is just an ignorant comment. For the most part I say that the confinement of animals is ‘unjust’, that is when we talk about gorillas, monkeys, elephants, wild birds or most wildlife species. On the other hand, when you speak of Dogs and Cats (primarily) you are not talking about ‘wildlife’ these are domesticated animals. They depend on humans for food and nutrition and even if they have never been in contact with humans would take several generations for this to be breed out of them.

I currently do not own a single pet (mainly because it hurts too much to see them die). If you think that owning a pet is slavery then I have to say you certainly have a warped prospective on life. Pets can lower your stress, increase your life span, and bring a general feel of harmony to your life. Dogs and cats without owners sink into deep depressions and often die of loneliness, not exactly what happens with slaves!

Lonley Pets



Undertoad  Monday Nov 25 03:36 PM

At the very least, dogs and cats live longer and much less stressed lives in domestication than they would in the wild.

My girl may require $1500 in vet bills to take care of her gimpy leg, which she got just running around. In the wild she'd become turkey vulture food.

The girl is extremely happy with her lot, even with a bad leg. She stays close to home at all times, very anxious of others although she loves all.

The boy sometimes thinks there might be a better pack on the block, and will trot off for 20 minutes or so, but he eventually comes back, deciding that we're still the best bet.

Both run right to their crates at the word "crate" even though they are going to spend hours there, because they think of the crate as their personal cave/nest.



juju  Monday Nov 25 03:38 PM

The fact that people enjoy having pets has nothing to do with the morality of it. Again, whites enjoyed having black slaves. Many times there would be a black woman that cooked dinner, cleaned, and generally took care of the house. Though they were servants, they were considered part of the family. Love doesn't negate the dominant/submission pattern.

I'm trying to define slavery as being confined in one place and being restricted in your actions (aka house arrest), although the addition of a physical labor requirement does seem like it would make the definition more sane. So I could see pets as not being slaves as long as they aren't doing labor, but then horses and mules would definitely be considered slaves.

Still, just because "they like it", that doesn't make it not slavery. That has been used an excuse for slavery nearly every time it has occurred.



Undertoad  Monday Nov 25 04:02 PM

I got it. If you're going to compare it to something, compare it to having a family member with a very very low IQ.

Or a child. You are responsible for what they do, so they don't have free will, they don't have a democracy where they get a vote. If left to themselves, they would likely injure or kill themselves or others.

Slavery and will require a higher understanding than cats and dogs and infants and children are capable of. It's in their best interests that they are not treated like adults.



juju  Monday Nov 25 04:32 PM

I'm totally cool with that definition, as long as people stop telling me how smart their pets are.

I really find that some people take the anthropomorphization of animals too far. Some people think that animals are just as smart if not smarter than humans, and that they have our full range of reasoning and emotional abilities. It really bugs me, and I say if they're going to treat them just like people, they should really go all the way. If you're going to confine them to your home (yeah yeah, not everyone does this, but many <i>do</i>), at least have the decency to objectify them. Elsewise you're treating an equal as an inferior.

Let's be clear, though. I think they're inferior, and that it's not slavery. But I say that if you're going to treat them as equals, actually do it instead of saying you're doing it.



Tobiasly  Monday Nov 25 05:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
Still, just because "they like it", that doesn't make it not slavery.
Sure it does -- slavery means involuntary. If they like it, it's not involuntary (OK, they aren't exactly antonyms, but I'm sure you see my point.)

You may disagree on whether the "slaves" actually enjoy their lot, but if they do enjoy the arrangement, and prefer it to any other arrangement available to them, it's not slavery.


Zorg  Tuesday Nov 26 04:29 AM

I think juju is on to something here! Instead of cooping up all those poor animals in farms and zoos, let them all loose! Want beef for dinner? Then chase down a cow and kill it. Want to see a lion? Use the beef as bait to lure it into your driveway.


And Hell, why stop with the animal world? After all, they're not conscious as humans are. But did you know that there are humans whose every movement is watched and monitored, and have no opportunies to exert their free will? They're called babies.

Juju, brave social visionary that he is, will no doubt agree that this so called "parenting" is nothing but legal slavery! Set free all babies now!



tjennings  Tuesday Nov 26 10:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zorg
And Hell, why stop with the animal world? After all, they're not conscious as humans are. But did you know that there are humans whose every movement is watched and monitored, and have no opportunies to exert their free will? They're called babies.
Point of order: I currently have a baby on premises (age 6 1/2 months). While it is true that she is watched and to some extent monitored, she is exerting her free will all over the place.


Tobiasly  Tuesday Nov 26 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
I'm totally cool with that definition, as long as people stop telling me how smart their pets are. I really find that some people take the anthropomorphization of animals too far.
Why, just last night, I was up late as usual, finishing up a bit of code on a side project of mine.

It was late, and I had cut myself off the caffeine an hour or two earlier. So I really wasn't thinking too clearly, and I made an all-too-common error:

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <B><FONT FACE="Courier New">if ($cols{id} = 1) {
</FONT></B>

Well, ol' Al starts barking up a storm, with his tail straight out and his big ol' puppy paw pointed at the monitor. "What is it, boy?" I asked. Then it hit me!

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <B><FONT FACE="Courier New">if ($cols{id} == 1) {
</FONT></B>

Once again, Al saves the day! Good boy!


arz  Tuesday Nov 26 11:30 AM

Maybe Al can come over and watch me try to configure my WAP router for my Powerbook and tell me why it's not working and what I'm doing wrong, because my two cats are pretty useless.




dave  Tuesday Nov 26 11:44 AM

What WAP you got?



Tobiasly  Tuesday Nov 26 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arz
Maybe Al can come over and watch me try to configure my WAP router for my Powerbook and tell me why it's not working and what I'm doing wrong, because my two cats are pretty useless.
I asked him about your problem.



Looks like he's still pondering the issue. I'll let you know when he comes up with something.


Undertoad  Tuesday Nov 26 02:33 PM

When the ears go back like that it's usually a configuration problem, not a hardware problem or anything serious.



juju  Tuesday Nov 26 02:59 PM

You know, the sad thing is that I actually know people who think this way.



Tobiasly  Wednesday Nov 27 12:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
When the ears go back like that it's usually a configuration problem, not a hardware problem or anything serious.
Hahaha.. yeah, if he'd have started licking his nads, you'd know you're up shit creek!


arz  Wednesday Nov 27 09:16 PM

Al was right; it was a firmware upgrade issue.

Good boy!



quzah  Thursday Nov 28 07:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
I don't understand the whole pet thing. Seems like slavery to me.
As I've read in the thread, you obviously have no concept of pets at all. Around here, cats just show up. They show up, eat the food, sleep on the porch with all the other cats, come in the back door, sleep on the nice warm dryer, use the cat box, wander around the acerage, do as they please. I'd hardly call that slavery.

I've got a dog here too, actually two of them. One is an indoors dog, one is an outdoors dog. The outdoors dog sleeps in his house, eats his food, the gate's open, he can leave if he likes, and yet, oddly enough, he doesn't. He runs along side the car as its leaving until it gets to the end of the drive. He runs along the drive to follow the car when it gets back. And strangely enough, he still never leaves. He's never had lessons to "stay here". But still he doesn't go.

I wonder why that is? Must be the ball and chain and daily beatings for not hauling in the crops...

The indoors dog does the same. He bounces off the walls when I get home in happy greetings. Jumps on me and licks my face off. Gets his toy so I can throw it down the hall a few times. Then promptly curls up by the fire.

If that's slavery, sign me up. Fuck going to work. I want to run up and down the hall and sleep by the fire all day long.

[edit]
I have to make this quick, *I* have to go to bed and go to work on Thanksgiving day, talk about slavery...

Furthermore, most animals around now would be rounded up and executed for being on the street. So what's better? Wind up dog food, or sleep by the fire all day? And for whoever said the initial comment about dog food quality control is absolutely kidding themselves. Dog food is honestly made from dogs. Yes, it often is, look it up. People have found pieces of flea/dog collars in cans before.
[/edit]

Quzah.


Leus  Thursday Nov 28 08:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by quzah

People have found pieces of flea/dog collars in cans before.

Quzah.
Now that's snopesque.


elSicomoro  Thursday Nov 28 09:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by quzah
Dog food is honestly made from dogs. Yes, it often is, look it up. People have found pieces of flea/dog collars in cans before.
I searched Urban Legends and Google...nothing.

You made the claim, quzah...back it up.


juju  Thursday Nov 28 10:25 AM

Perhaps they know that if they run away from home, they'll be rounded up and executed!



frasier123  Friday Nov 29 02:26 AM

The bond between pets and humans is one of symbiosis. Both parties are gaining, and both parties are losing to some extent. I hesitate to call it slavery however, because it's missing a crucial element that I see as defining slavery. The pet lacks the emotional capacity to understand the concept of slavery. It knows only that if it is well fed, has acceptable surroundings, and sufficient mental stimulus it will remain where it is. Normally, the pet's enviroment meets all these standards and it lives out its days happily. Calling it slavery is overlooking the benefits to both parties.



quzah  Saturday Nov 30 01:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore


I searched Urban Legends and Google...nothing.

You made the claim, quzah...back it up.
I've been looking for the source, but I'm unable to find it. Probably usenet or a mag. I naturally found a source to the contrary, but let's face it, they feed cows to cows, and pigs to pigs, so why is it hard to believe they feed dogs to dogs? (I realize that you're just asking for a reference, but think about it. Like they really care what's in the food. It's all about the bottom line.) And really, the source to the contrary isn't really that. It's one man's speculation that it doesn't happen.

And that's what goes into food you eat, not just what a mere pet eats. What do you suppose they put in there?



Quzah.


wolf  Saturday Nov 30 02:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by quzah
I have to make this quick, *I* have to go to bed and go to work on Thanksgiving day, talk about slavery...
Me too :P

Although I must report that I had as close to perfect a Thanksgiving shift as possible.

Phone hardly rang.

Nobody came to be admitted.

No police.

Usually thanksgiving SUCKS at the hospital.

You see, I have this theory.

Thanksgiving, more than any other holiday, if the transportation stats they tell us about on the news each year are true, brings families together.

Families that don't usually come together throughout the rest of the year.

Families that often don't get along very well.

Everything goes just fine ...

Until the damn bird hits the table.

And the wine flows.

And people stop being nice to each other.

And something goes *snap*!

And there is ready access to electric carving utensils.

But for some reason, this didn't happen this year.

And I got paid time-and-a-half (plus a day off to be named later) to surf the internet and play computer games.

Gotta love it.


Cam  Sunday Dec 1 07:12 PM

Quote:
Perhaps they know that if they run away from home, they'll be rounded up and executed!
Wouldn't that be admitting that pets have a brain juju .


And quzah I really doubt dog food ever contains dog. Not only would the animal rights activists be up in arms, but most dogs are buried somewhere. The only reason pigs or cows are ever fed there own kind is becuase the feed lot is too lazy to get rid of the dead animals in a legal fashion.


Dagney  Monday Dec 2 07:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
I'm totally cool with that definition, as long as people stop telling me how smart their pets are.
You may not want to hear it, however a large number of domestic pets are quite intelligent. They may not be 'vocally' intelligent, but they do express their intelligence in various ways - being mischevious, stubborn, or just being themselves. Put three dogs in a room together, and it's a constant dance of pack dominance, the same with cats, who stake out territory in a specific place in a house (a good example would be Hemmingway's 6 toed cats in Key West)

I won't tell you how brilliant my Maxwell kitty is.... (He's taking dictation now tho)

Dagney


jerguar  Tuesday Dec 3 10:37 AM

No thanks...

He drools a lot, but I'll stick with Maximus. Now tipping the scales at 280 lbs...



Undertoad  Tuesday Dec 3 10:58 AM

Good gawd, and the last 80 lbs are jowls.



jerguar  Tuesday Dec 3 11:15 AM

yeah no kidding. he can actually store items in there like a chipmunk. occasionally a large rock or piece of bark will fall on the floor in front of the fireplace...



Undertoad  Tuesday Dec 3 02:00 PM

But to bring it back to the thread -- the strange thing is, if that 4 lb Petersburg Orchid were, uh, ok, artificially inseminated by 280 lb Maximus, and somehow a puppy lived to term without killing the mom, it would result in a dog.

It might not LOOK like a dog, but they are the same species! The genetics of the dog allow it to vary from 2 lbs (the tiniest teacup chihuahua) up to your 280 lb defensive tackle there.

I go back to a teacher of mine waaay back who said that an awful lot of evolution can happen without even any genetic mutations.

The next question: are there genes present in the human genome that are so recessive that they have basically never been activated?



jerguar  Tuesday Dec 3 02:07 PM

on that note, we had a little Basset Hound that SOMEHOW got impregnated by the neighbors Irish Wolfhound mix. It was proabably a 145 lb dog. Don't ask me how that happened, but they ended up having to abort the pregnancy, or our dog wouldn't have survived (or so my dad said at the time). She was carrying 11 puppies. That would have been a strange mutt.



Senor Oso  Tuesday Dec 3 02:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
I'm totally cool with that definition, as long as people stop telling me how smart their pets are.
Fair enough. My dog Molly is dumb, dumber than a box of rocks, D-U-M dumb. No kidding. Really dumb.

But she's also a giant ball of love. Her favorite thing in the entire world is to climb onto the couch and lay her gigantic head in my lap. She likes it even more than food - sometimes she doesn't eat, but she never misses an opportunity to flop on the couch with me.

Do I feel that she is inferior? Well, yeah, I guess so. She'd be lost on her own in the wild, I imagine. No mighty huntress is Molly the Big Dumb Saint Bernard. We didn't get her to be an equal partner in our house, we got her because we like dogs.

And that's what she is - she's our dog and our friend and the source of lots of laughter and love. And maybe I just can't see it the way you do, but that doesn't sound like slavery to me.

Besides, my GOD, what a cute puppy she was:


Leus  Tuesday Dec 3 05:41 PM

Well, this thread has degenerate into something bizarre now.

My dog is also totally dumb. I used to think that four legged animals wouldn't trip and fall like us humans sometimes do, but alas, she proved me wrong.



perth  Tuesday Dec 3 05:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Leus
Well, this thread has degenerate into something bizarre now.

My dog is also totally dumb. I used to think that four legged animals wouldn't trip and fall like us humans sometimes do, but alas, she proved me wrong.
shes a cutie tho. im thinking of getting a beagle or a mutt that gets to be about the same size (as a beagle). dont want too big of a dog, but i dont want a lapdog either.

~james


Undertoad  Tuesday Dec 3 06:03 PM

BTW, I'm loving the dog shots, folks. Some people say pics of pets on the internet are dumb, but for some reason, I like seeing all these puppies that people are happy to share their homes with. It's comforting.



Cam  Tuesday Dec 3 06:53 PM

My dog is getting ornory in her old age. When I went home for thanksgiving I ended up sleeping on the couch in the living room which my dog usually sleeps on during the night. She slept on the floor that night and seemed content. Now you have to realize that she rarely gets on the couch when anyone is around, but the next night she got up long before everyone went to bed. Obviously claiming her spot. After I had moved her(I felt terrible) she decided to climb onto my moms good couch. Luckily my mom understood and my dog didn't get yelled at so it was okay for us to laugh.



wolf  Wednesday Dec 4 02:02 AM

Stupid Dog Email that Showed up at an Opportune Time

How many dogs does it take to change a lightbulb? Just one, but if it's a:

Golden Retriever: "The sun is shining, the air is fresh, the day is
young. We've got our whole lives ahead of us -- and you're inside worrying about a burned-out lightbulb??"

Border Collie: "Done. And by the way, your wiring is not up to code."

Lab: "Oh, me, meeeeeeeee! Pleeeeeeeze choose-me-choose-me-choose-me!"

German Shepherd: "Back off. That's MY lightbulb."

Dachshund: "Can I get a little boost here?"

Toy Poodle: "I'm sorry, I can't help -- my nails are still wet."

Rottweiler: "You talkin' to me? Are YOU...talkin' to...ME?"

Shi-tzu: "Puh-leeeze! We have people to do that, you know."

Jack Russell terrier: "I just KNOW I can reach it! Another twenty
jumps..."

Hound Dog: "zzzzzzzzzz"

Pointer: "The new bulb is riiiiight over there..."

Chihuahua: "Hey! Watch where you're walking!"

Greyhound: "If it isn't moving, I don't care."

Kelpie: "LOOK! I put all the light bulbs in a little circle!"

Chow: "Does this mean dinner will be late?"

Sheepdog: "It doesn't look any darker to me..."

Weimeraner: "That light bulb you threw away? I brought it back."



slang  Wednesday Dec 4 09:20 AM

Re: Stupid Dog Email that Showed up at an Opportune Time

Quote:
and now something completely lacking any relevance to this conversation

German Shepherd: "Back off. That's MY bubblegum."



Cam  Wednesday Dec 4 10:48 AM

That was great wolf, I loved the lab one. Though the german Shepard one I don't agree with, I had a German Shepard once she was the gentlest dog you could find. Wouldn't hurt a soul.



Tobiasly  Wednesday Dec 4 06:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cam
That was great wolf, I loved the lab one.
Me too! That's Al all the way... if he's been in his kennel for five hours, and has to piss like a racehorse when I get home, the first thing he does when I let him out is give me about ten seconds of hyper-excited puppy lovin' before making a mad dash for the back door.


HungLikeJesus  Tuesday Feb 24 10:11 PM

This was a SteveDallas Random Thread Picker pick. It's interesting to read in light of the recent chimp attack (though I only read about the first 30 and last 10 posts - the dinner bell is ringing).



ZenGum  Wednesday Feb 25 12:33 AM

All that animal talk and not a single recipe?? WTF????



wolf  Wednesday Feb 25 02:12 AM

There's not enough meat on a Petersburg Orchid to make anything useful out of it.

Well, I suppose you could zip up some sort of stew if you slaughtered a whole herd of them, but that's a lot of skinning and deboning for one bowl of stew. Screw it. Open up a can of Dinty Moore. That pretty much tastes like dog anyway.



wolf  Wednesday Feb 25 02:13 AM

Hey ... what ever happened to Tobiasly? Anybody know?



xoxoxoBruce  Wednesday Feb 25 02:16 AM

Jeez, I'd forgotten how twisted juju is.
No wonder he ended up at walmart.



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