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   Undertoad  Thursday Dec 26 01:26 PM

12/26/2002: Korean peninsula



This was presented on the web log of "Corsair the Rational Pirate" which I currently don't have an URL for, so if you were particularly motivated you could find it. Corsair didn't include any further information on the image.

This is a heat and light signature of the Korean peninsula.

Two days ago I took faux credit when U.S. defense head Donald Rumsfeld talked about what the Korean night sky looks like. (South Korea is all vibrantly lit up, while North Korea is entirely dark.) I had previously cut up the "night sky of the world" image to feature Korea, and I thought I was being clever, but anyone who looked at that part of the world would notice the same thing.

It's all a very interesting lesson in what happens when your country is controlled by socialistic megalomaniacal (?) morons.

By many accounts, the Korean people have a fairly workaholic culture -- similar to the Japanese, early Americans or modern immigrant Americans. They view work as a positive, desireable thing. Neither Korea nor Japan enjoy a remarkable wealth in natural resources, and yet both became quite wealthy once their people had the freedom to be productive.

All of which makes North Korea's nuclear proliferation even more incredibly outrageous. Partly because North Korea lets its people suffer without heat or light or even food, when just letting them loose would result in another South Korea - a boon for the world.

But mostly because it means that the battle lines of the world are increasingly between productive and unproductive countries -- and the unproductive countries have stronger political control of their armies and their missiles, and more will to wreak havoc because the peace-loving public doesn't have a say.



jaguar  Thursday Dec 26 03:51 PM

socialistic?
Please.
Can you not confuse socialism and stalinist dictatorships? Not that hard. And since i'm feeling nitpickey, the correct term is political will not political control.



sca1111  Friday Dec 27 08:50 AM

What's the large heat signature over the Korea Strait at the bottom right of the picture?



Leus  Friday Dec 27 09:24 AM

Socialism doesn't imply stalinism nor marxism. Here in Chile we have a Socialist president, yet he managed to sign a free trade agreement with USA and EU (that's pretty capitalistic, if you ask me )

sca111: I believe that's Hiroshima.



Griff  Friday Dec 27 09:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Leus
..., yet he managed to sign a free trade agreement with USA and EU (that's pretty capitalistic, if you ask me )
Actually, this guy named Benito from Italy had a name for state managed capitalism, hmmm what was that?


Leus  Friday Dec 27 11:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Griff
Actually, this guy named Benito from Italy had a name for state managed capitalism, hmmm what was that?
Heh, trade agreements have nothing to do with fascism...


Griff  Friday Dec 27 01:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Leus

Heh, trade agreements have nothing to do with fascism...
That would depend on the fine print wouldn't it. Fascism isn't all jackboots and midnight knocks on the door. Its also about protecting favored businesses and owners, by attaching them to the state. In the US, we've nationalized agriculture, steel, timber, and other industries at different times. Anytime we (Americans) sign a "free-trade" agreement that runs more than a couple pages its hardly free and reflects the favored positions of "essential" industries. Of course I shouldn't lecture a Chilean on that stuff, should I?


tw  Sunday Dec 29 03:06 AM

Re: 12/26/2002: Korean peninsula

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
All of which makes North Korea's nuclear proliferation even more incredibly outrageous. Partly because North Korea lets its people suffer without heat or light or even food, when just letting them loose would result in another South Korea - a boon for the world.
And then comes Kim Jung Il who wants to address his countries ills. He makes overtures to the world to give up on nuclear development in exchange for economic help and oppurtuntiy. No problem. A president named Clinton took him up on the oppurtunity. An agreement almost completely destroyed by a Republican dominated Congress that cancels the oil that N Korea was promised in exchange for terminating a plutonium processing operation.

Then a mental midget president for reasons not based upon logic instead declares N Korea as an 'axis of evil'. Hard enough for Kim Jung Il to keep his extremists in line. Now Washington is threatening. And so N Korea moved into projects that they can use their educated talent in - processing uranium (which was not in violation of any agreement between N Korea and the UN) and making a small missile for export. The missile is a good exportable product even in demand by American allies such as Yemen.

This same administration that previously advocated military attacks on China now cuts off all oil to Korea. What are they suppose to do. Give up and cry? The smart politician uses the unprocessed plutonium rods as bargining chips AND fires up a nuclear reactor to create electricity. Nothing extraordinary here. Any country in N Korea's position would do same - especially when confronted by a country that now advocates war as the solution to any problem.

This whole Korean mess is directly traceable to the mental midget administration of George Jr. Same president that has destroyed relations with virutally every nation in the world. Had George Jr not done the stupid 'axis of evil' nonsense, then it is not likely we would be here.

A country more familiar with the situation - S Korea - let it be known who they regard as creating this mess. An incumbant president sitting on a strong economy, but who sided with George Jr, was kicked out of office by a South Korean population that wants to distance themselves from America. A Clinton America was responsible - therefore N Korea was slowly joining the world. A George Jr America is the threat to peace in that region. South Koreans blame the US for a complete failure of peace talks with the North - as made obvious by their elections. (Germans said same only a few months ago). And since Koreans get the whole story, then who would know better.

South Koreans are correct. But Americans know so little about N Korea's position or even promised made to N Korea. One senior administration offical openly lied - yes boldface, up you ass lied - and said the Korean electric system could not support the power provided by that nuclear reactor. Many Americans are so technically ignorant of numbers to even agree with that liar. Any electric system can support 5 megawatts. N Korea is so short of energy supplies that 5 Megawatts is absolutely essential to life support. So why does that administration official lie. Because he knows he can to an Amerian public that does not know what is happening in Korea.


quzah  Sunday Dec 29 10:58 AM

I heard the other day that North Korea was moving a few machine guns around the DMZ, and moving troops into the general area. "Self", I said, "this is brilliant. While GW is fucking off in Iraq, and since he's already said he isn't going to war with N.K., what a simply divine oportunity to take back S.K."

Quzah.



elSicomoro  Sunday Dec 29 11:03 AM

The two word solution to North Korea: Jimmy Carter



Hubris Boy  Sunday Dec 29 11:42 AM

Quote:
originally posted by Undertoad
This was presented on the web log of "Corsair the Rational Pirate" which I currently don't have an URL for, so if you were particularly motivated you could find it.
Corsair the Rational Pirate.

Yep. Motivation. That's what I'm all about.


Undertoad  Sunday Dec 29 12:10 PM

Tell us, tw, why would N. Korea have to kick out the IAEA inspectors and disable their surveillance cameras if their intentions were to generate peaceful electricity to support that power grid?

The intended effort is not to generate electricity but to process SPENT nuclear fuel into material for 4 new nuclear bombs. (N Korea already has 2 of them.)

A few months ago you were a fan of globalism and not a fan of unilateral action. So why does Kim Jung Il become your personal hero when China, Europe, Russia, the US, and Japan are all demanding that N Korea cut this shit out?

Bush called N Korea part of the axis of evil 11 months ago; they began their current work 4 years ago.



tw  Monday Dec 30 03:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
Tell us, tw, why would N. Korea have to kick out the IAEA inspectors and disable their surveillance cameras if their intentions were to generate peaceful electricity to support that power grid?

The intended effort is not to generate electricity but to process SPENT nuclear fuel into material for 4 new nuclear bombs. (N Korea already has 2 of them.)
If N Korea wanted to build plutonium bombs, then they would not waste time putting rods into a reactor. What our right wing extremists leaders forgets to mention is that Korea already has plutonium inside those reactor rods. They don't need the reactor to create plutonium. They already have plenty. Instead, Koreans are moving those rods into the reactor - where they would generate electricity. So that the world will understand N Korea's point, those UN inspectors were permitted full access to what the Koreans were doing. N Korea even permitted a third inspector to arrive and watch. What do those inspectors say? N Korea is making no effort to make bomb material. Instead, N Korea is using that potential bomb material to make electricity AND loudly making a point that they could do more if an extremist US keeps pushing them to do so.

How to keep ratcheting up the heat on an extemist, militant, American position? First remove cameras. No response. Next restart the reactor. No response. Next step was threatened long ago: ask those inspectors to leave - but not until tommorrow. It is these little details that our right wing extremist leaders forgets to mention. The Korean message is quite clear. They want to be treated fairly - or will become a threat. They wanted inspectors to stay around to report what they are doing. With no cooperative US response, then even those UN inspectors will have to leave - to ratchet up tensions.

George Jr's people instead have twisted facts by forgetting key details. George Jr's people want you to fear - which is how they promote themselves.

1) They tell us - a direct lie - that the Korean electric grid could not absorb 5 megawatts. They lie so that American will call N Koreans devils rather than see the crisis as it really is. Promote fear.

2) They tell us that Koreans possess plutonium to make bombs - forgetting to mention rods are instead being put back into the reactor to make electricity. Why mention that fact when the US administration's position is to first advocate fear and threaten war.

3) They say the reactor is being started to make plutonium - forgetting to mention that plutonium for as many as four or five bombs already exists in those rods.

4) They forget to mention how we kept renigning on promises - especially to deliver oil - which only empowers militant extremists in N Korea at the expense of moderates.

5) Only the US is making overt demands on N Korea. China, Japan, and S Korea are concerned. Both Japan and S Korea continued to deliver promised oil until an extremist US government this weekend demanded all oil stop. Moreso, China, S Korea, et al are concerned about how George Jr aggrevated this entire crisis especially with his 'axis of evil' nonsense. Even Japan has distanced itself from the US position. George Jr had declared N Korea as an 'axis of evil' without any knowledge of events that would justify that opinion. This crisis caught the adminstration by total surprise because 'axis of evil' was declared without any supporting facts.

Now this administration is in a bind. Having been so militant and extremist, this adminstration has little manuvering room beyond military confrontation. Solution by negotiation would be considered backing down - because George Jr's people were saber rattling just like over a silly spy plane. George Jr's administration made this crisis inevitable with his silly 'axis of evil' position - which was made without any supporting facts.

What has concerned S Korea, Japan, China and Russia more? That the US is driving militant N Korean extremists into positions of power because US rhetoric is 'enemies in every closet'. Fear is the greatest threat to world peace. Fear is what this extremist president advocates repeatedly.

China, et al are not openly demanding N Korea stop the shit. They only remind N Korea that its current actions will create unstable and dangerous situations. If reading right wing adminstration press releases, then yes, you see China, Japan, et al making demands on N Korea - demands that really do not exist in that extreme. From China, et al is a sigh of exasperation - that this crisis was made inevitable by extremist right wing American rhetoric.

Of course the George Jr administration does not see it that way. They are right wing extremists who fear and see threats everywhere - ie an anti-ballistic missile system that does not even work. As a result, American extremists see N Korea as the antagonist. After all, the mighty US could not have created this crisis. We are the good guys according to right wing rhetoric.

Those who see things in black and white see a monolithic N Korea intent on all evil. Therefore lies are acceptable, such as Korea could not absorb electricity from that reactor. George Jr also sees Iran in the same way. In the meantime, domestic forces in both countries struggle to determine whose agenda will win power. An extremist US government has no idea that they play right into the hands of militant extremists in both countries. American right wing extremist attitudes not only tried to get the US into a shooting war with China. It also empowers militant N Korean extremists into positions of power. As a result, even moderate N Koreans must now endorse the restarting of a nuclear reactor.

If looking from a perspective other than the extremist US administration, then one sees that N Koreans had no other solution to their failing economic condition - other than civil war.

In the meantime, the naive actually buy into a mental midget president's nonsense that the reactor is restarted to make plutonium. Bull. Ignored facts make that an obvious lie. Facts that a US president forgets to mention; to promote fear. If N Koreans were making plutionium, then they would not bother putting those rods into a reactor. They would have started, 'immediately', a six+ month process of extracting plutonium from those rods. Just a little detail that this right wing administration forgets to mention.


There is no statement that calls Kim Jung Il a personal hero. It is stated either out of background ignorance, or as an insult. What is Kim Jung Il 's personal opinion? That is not clear. What is clear is that George Jr has forced Kim Jung Il with no other choice but to side with N Korea's militant extremists. Of course. George Jr would never understand that. He displays ignorance of the world as Johnson did with N Viet Nam. George Jr's solution, like Johnson, is to solve all problems by outright force and military threats. Both men cannot see a bigger picture and could not negotiate a solution.

There was once a man named Kennedy who kept asking , "But what is he thinking", and "What are his domestic political opponents forcing him to do". Therefore we avoided sending the 1st Marine division into certain death - a nuclear holocaust on Cuban beaches. This reasoning is too complex for a man like George Jr - which is why George Jr's administration solution to everything is rattle sabers and threaten war. That constant saber rattling is what most worries Russia, Japan, S Korea, and China. The South Korean people told us that - bluntly - in their recent political elections. Japan has long since been saying same by silence - distancing themselves from American positions. But too many Americans only see the world per Rumsfled, Wolfovich, and other right wing extremists.

This crisis was made inevitable by the militant international politics of George Jr. That extremist militancy is what most worries Japan, S Korea, China, and Russia. An intelligent president such as Clinton would have seen the opening to solve this problem by political negotiation. Clinton did just that previously, which is why we were not talking about war in 1994. But fear, threats, and military force is only what this George Jr administration understands. When has George Jr used negotiation to solve problems? This is a serious question. EVery solution involves fear and military threats. Hell. He would have even gone to war over a silly spy plane! Right wing extremists could not see a negotiated solution if you put it where this president once put his cocaine.


Undertoad  Monday Dec 30 03:46 PM

Thank you for not answering my question whatsoever.



jaguar  Monday Dec 30 04:38 PM

where exactly did you get infomation solidly stating N korea has two working nucler weapons?



Undertoad  Monday Dec 30 04:42 PM

I heard Colin Powell say it on national TV.



elSicomoro  Monday Dec 30 04:55 PM

I'll confirm that...he said it on Meet the Press yesterday.



juju  Monday Dec 30 05:08 PM

What are you, his right-hand man or something? C'mon, man, we all know that he could say that the sky was falling and you would confirm it.



tw  Monday Dec 30 05:38 PM

Quote:
Thank you for not answering my question whatsoever.
You asked:
Quote:
why would N. Korea have to kick out the IAEA inspectors and disable their surveillance cameras if their intentions were to generate peaceful electricity
Does the simple phrase "ratchet up the tensions" sound familiar? Need for negotiated settlement. A power struggle between moderates and extremists - and extremists are winning because of this militant American president. Repeated US threats such as 'axis of evil'. How many times need I answer the one question before it is considered answered?

Those inspectors were not thrown out yet - not until they can report to the world that nuclear rods are in the reactor for electricity rather than in reprocessing for bomb material. Throwing them out is just another way to force a negotiated settlement - to answer the same question for a fifth time.

Not only was your question answered more than five times, but administration lies to advocate fear and military action were exposed. Even N Korea's neighbors have more feared US war rhetoric than N Korea. Not one neighbor views N Korea as an 'axis of evil'. Americans who rely on right wing administration press releases would not know that China, S Korea, Japan, and Russia are exasperated by American's constant threats of war.

Your question was repeatedly answered with background that the current administration would have us all not know.

Some readers, at this point, are so misinformed as to even 'know' that N Korea has two nuclear weapons. More rhetoric from an administration that promotes fear and military solutions to all problems. Those who promote peaceful settlements in the American tradition first ask, "Show Me." That evidence does not exist except in an administration that advocates military solutions to all problems. More on this below.

Kindly state where your question was not answered. All I can do is keep knocking down outright lies and myths. If the intended effort was:
Quote:
to process SPENT nuclear fuel into material for 4 new nuclear bombs.
then why is that material instead put into a reactor to create electricity? Why do you promote lies from an administration whose reputation is to promote fear rather than report facts honestly. To make four new nuclear weapons, all those rods must be put into reprocessing for 6 months - and not into a nuclear reactor where they create electricity AND where they are exposed to military attack. That answered your post but again.

Stated were outright lies from the current militant, right wing, extremist administration. Those lies were exposed.

For those who need answers in the form of sound bytes: the expression "ratchet up the tension" and "force a negotiated settlement" explicitly answers Undertoad's question. His question was answered many more times.

IN the meantime from today's NY Times, what do people on the front line say:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/30/in...0CND-KORE.html
Quote:
The situation has been complicated by apparent disagreement between Washington and Seoul over how to deal with the North, and complicated still further by rising anti-Americanism in South Korea.
America more fears N Korea than even countries most exposed to attack? America fears more than any other nation? This trend is becoming obvious.

Does N Korea have two nuclear devices? Powell's answer has been distorted here. Powell says it is the administration's opinion that North Korea already has two nuclear weapons. Right wing extremist opinion is that two devices exist - how to promote fear and to advocate a military solution. If Powell stated as Undertoad posted, then the claim would be front page news. It is not because Powell did not say as Undertoad claims. In fact, Powell instead says more in line with what I have posted. Powell advocates talks rather than fear and military confrontation.

I lived through VietNam. I watched people be openly decieved by an administration whose only solution was to promote more war. It is happening again. Most readers here have no experience with such administrations (ie Nixon) where lying is normal and acceptable. Careful what is source for facts when those facts come from an administration that is more insterested in its own political agenda - including promote fear - rather than realities of the world. Powell was careful what he said. It is not his opinion. It is only an opinion in the administration. Powell's statement were misrepresented in The Cellar.


elSicomoro  Monday Dec 30 05:54 PM

Excerpts from yesterday's Meet the Press, featuring Colin Powell:

(POWELL) We now believe they have a couple of nuclear weapons and have had them for years. This new facility, should they do what they’re capable of doing—of producing several more nuclear weapons—it will not feed one more North Korean child, it will not light one more North Korean home. And we hope that through a process of careful diplomacy, pressure, international attention and a willingness to listen to ideas as they come forward, we will find a way through this situation.

Then, later...

I wouldn’t say that. They have a larger army, but they are also pretty much a broken society and a broken country, a broken economy, and so they are, I think, in rather desperate straits. Yes, they have a large army, and, yes, they have had these couple of nuclear weapons for many years.

Which statement is correct, I dunno for sure. Maybe he was overconfident...or slipped up on the second excerpt. Does he say that the weapons work? Nah...my bad, and my apologies for any misrepresentation. But he does say that NK has 2 nuclear weapons.

Out of anyone in that administration, Powell is the one guy I believe. And I personally think he slipped up on that second statement...I wouldn't be surprised if NK already has several nuclear weapons.

The full transcript



Undertoad  Monday Dec 30 06:01 PM

Actually I heard it on, um, the network that I never watch:

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0212/29/le.00.html

BLITZER: But this seems so frightening. This is a -- one of the members of the "axis of evil." It's a Stalinist regime, unpredictable. And you are now acknowledging they probably already have two nuclear bombs and they might be able to build a lot more.

POWELL: Don't be quite so breathless. They've had two nuclear weapons, we believe, for some time. It is not something that we have suddenly discovered. We've always attributed this capability to them. Our intelligence community believes they probably had enough material to fabricate two weapons, and they may well have these two weapons.

If they start this reactor back up, and if they go beyond what they say they're starting it for -- they say they need the electricity because we cut off the heavy fuel in response to their violation of the agreed framework. But if they go beyond that and start to reprocess the spent fuel that is at the facility, they could have another several nuclear weapons in a matter of, let's say, six months. That would take them from two to six.

We don't like that. We don't believe this is in their best interests. It's certainly not in the best interests of the region or the world. But it is not yet a crisis that requires mobilization or for us to be threatening North Korea. Quite the contrary. We have been saying to North Korea that we have no plans to invade you. We have no hostile intent towards you. You have people who are starving. We are the biggest food provider to the people of North Korea, as part of the world food program.

So we have no ill intent toward North Korea, but we are deeply concerned about some of the actions they have taken over the years to proliferate weapons of mass destruction throughout the world, to sell this kind of technology throughout the world. And I think it was quite right for the president to say that clearly when he gave his State of the Union speech.

Remember his State of the Union speech, where he called them part of the "axis of evil," was 11 months ago. They started this new program four years ago. And so we finally found out about the program and called them on it. We were in the process of negotiations with them. I went and met with the foreign minister of North Korea in Brunei at the end of July.

We sent in Assistant Secretary Kelly to let them know that there were things we could do for their country but they had to stop this kind of activity. And their response has not been an encouraging one.

And for that reason, the president is keeping all of his options on the table. And we're leading with the diplomatic option because it is important for everybody to realize this is a problem not just for the United States but for the region and for the world.



elSicomoro  Monday Dec 30 06:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
What are you, his right-hand man or something? C'mon, man, we all know that he could say that the sky was falling and you would confirm it.
Nah...I have no fear disagreeing with UT. I'm not afraid of him...I could take him in a fair fight.

I happened to see Meet the Press yesterday when Powell mentioned the nukes thing. I thought Shepps might have seen the same thing, hence why I confirmed his statement. That was me jumping the gun...my apologies. Although, I did note Powell's comments yesterday. Of course, tw is probably going to try and tell me that I heard no such thing...or he'll try to say that what Powell actually meant was such-and-such. Because after all, tw is the only responsible news peruser in the Cellar. You niggas better recognize that real quick. We all pale in comparison to his awesome insight. What the fuck do I know? I only listen to NPR and CBC Radio One (among other things during the day)...talk radio is unintelligent. Blah blah blah blah...


Rush Limballs  Monday Dec 30 07:30 PM

If you would listen to me, you wouldn't have to listen to NPR or CBC.

If you miss the CBS news, no big deal see NBC. If you miss both of those, see ABC news. If you miss all of them, read the New York Times. They are all spun the same direction.

If you miss my show though, there's no where else to go. I am equal time.



elSicomoro  Monday Dec 30 08:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rush Limballs
If you would listen to me, you wouldn't have to listen to NPR or CBC.
If I listened to you on a regular, I'd probably have a gun in my mouth within a week. That, or I'd be laughing so hard, I'd be in tears.


Rush Limballs  Monday Dec 30 08:50 PM

I'd rather you laughed than have a gun in your mouth. Laughter is much healthier.

Plus dead people cant buy the stuff I promote on the show...



tw  Monday Dec 30 09:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
Of course, tw is probably going to try and tell me that I heard no such thing...or he'll try to say that what Powell actually meant was such-and-such. Because after all, tw is the only responsible news peruser in the Cellar.
tw had already posted a response before Sycamore posted this. The two nukes are only a belief of this administration. Read it in transcripts posted by Undertoad or in most Monday newspapers where Colin Powell downplays the two nukes and promotes "talks".

The transcript is posted:
Quote:
They've had two nuclear weapons, we believe, for some time.
One need not insult others because they love the right wing extremist George Jr. Apparently I have too accurately and repeatedly characterized a George Jr administration - having undermined relations with virtually every nation in the world. An administration that promotes fear and threats of military force rather than use diplomatic channels to solve problems. Same is the problem in Korea. George Jr closed and canceled all diplomatic channels with N Korea rather than discuss what N Korea really wants. As a result from ABC News:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/D...ary021230.html
Quote:
South Koreans say they are no longer frightened by the belligerence and threats from the North. ... Many South Koreans say they are more worried about America's hard-line stance.
America - or is it George Jr they fear? Just another example of George Jr destroying relations with another ally. From the AP newswire of today:
Quote:
Withdrawing from the pact means the impoverished North is intent on raising pressure on the United States to negotiate over energy sources -- and is prepared to turn its back on its international obligations to do so.
Wanted is negotiation. Instead George Jr promotes fear and military threats. But what else is new? That has been George Jr's response in every confrontation.

These George Jr realities apparently make sycamore bristle. That's what happens when you fall in love with the wrong man. There is nothing attractive about one who constantly promotes fear and military confrontation - except maybe if you are Gen Curtis LeMay. So instead, demonstrate that love by attacking the messenger - me. Then maybe George Jr will look prettier?

George Jr is not happy with just one ongoing war. Now he wants three? Will sycamore again automatically concur?


elSicomoro  Monday Dec 30 09:16 PM

I've seen some crazy posts from you, tw, but that one takes the cake.

Go ahead buddy...keep patting yourself on the back.



Saddam Hussein  Monday Dec 30 09:23 PM

Quote:
They've had two nuclear weapons, we believe, for some time.
Kim Jong il called me last week. He asked me if I wanted a nuke and we discussed methods for delivering it to Bagdad. He was bragging to me that they had more than 2. So I guess you are correct. The Bush admin is wrong. The NKs dont have just 2, they have 26.


Praise Allah. People actually believe as you do Tw.


God  Monday Dec 30 09:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Saddam Hussein
Kim Jong il called me last week. He asked me if I wanted a nuke and we discussed methoods for delivering it to Bagdad.
Saddam. I am very disappointed with you. You are still being naughty even after I answered your prayer of retaining power after the "mother of all defeats".

You should know that George is praying at this moment for your head to be in a jar of formaldehyde sitting on his desk.


I am very tempted to answer his prayer.


Have a nice day.

God


Griff  Monday Dec 30 09:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
I've seen some crazy posts from you, tw, but that one takes the cake.

Go ahead buddy...keep patting yourself on the back.
Don't make me go all middle child on you kids.


slang  Monday Dec 30 10:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Griff


Don't make me go all middle child on you kids.
What's that mean Griff?


Undertoad  Monday Dec 30 11:11 PM

I see: we're into Clinton-esque "what is the meaning of the word 'belief'" semantics now.

OK, let me ask a better question -

The UN negotiated the cease-fire that created the demilitarized zone that the North Koreans are being accused of violating. The North Koreans are violating UN treaties and throwing out UN nuclear inspectors and disabling UN cameras. So why shouldn't the administration just let the UN address it?

That is, after all, your position on Iraq... is it not?



elSicomoro  Monday Dec 30 11:29 PM

You should receive an answer soon...it will ramble on for 8 or 9 paragraphs, and not directly answer your question at all. By the time you're finished reading the reply, you'll forget what you asked in the first place.



Griff  Tuesday Dec 31 09:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by slang


What's that mean Griff?
Middle children, of which I am one, have this often annoying habit of inserting themselves into other peoples arguments in an attempt to reduce conflict. Whenever I see something headed away from discussion an toward flamewar I get this difficult to suppress urge to make everybody be nice. It usually asserts itself when it looks like two regulars are on the edge of nuclear annialation ala Nic Name and David but I think tw and syc have thicker skins so moderation isn't called for. Anyway, just another glimpse into griffs diseased brain. (btw the radar/cairo diversion is somehow exempt so I feel free to introduce fisionable material)


elSicomoro  Tuesday Dec 31 02:23 PM

I know what you mean G, at least on the mediation part. But there are just times where someone that is just asking for it, like tw, comes along...and I can't resist.

And don't you even think about interfering with the Chucklehead twins.



tw  Tuesday Dec 31 06:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
The UN negotiated the cease-fire that created the demilitarized zone that the North Koreans are being accused of violating. The North Koreans are violating UN treaties and throwing out UN nuclear inspectors and disabling UN cameras. So why shouldn't the administration just let the UN address it?
N VietNamese attack two US destroyers in international waters. Clearly that justifies massive air attack on military installations in N VietNam. Gulf of Tonkin resolution resulted. That is until the details are uncovered. But extremist militant Americans did not want the public to know such facts. 50,000 America lives were wasted as a result.

US destroyers were running DeSoto patrols to sabatoge N VietNam. US destroyers were operating inside their territorial waters when N VietNam patrol boats attacked. US was running covert military actions against the N Vietnamese - a country we were not even at war with. Whole different conclusion once facts (details) are provided.

Same applies to how Undertoad characterized current Korean problems. If N Korea was building plutonium bombs, then they would kick out UN inspectors immediately. Not even bother with cameras that are useless without those inspectors. Secretly remove those fuel rods to remote locations where secret gas centrifuges could extract plutonium. Never say anything about what they are doing.

But instead they asked UN inspectors to leave weeks later in a hope that it would correct a serious international problem. They first announced in advance, then intentionally disabled cameras to make a point. Then days later removed seals on fuel rods - making another public announcement. With UN inspectors encouraged to watch, they installed fuel rods into a reactor - after announcing, accurately, they needed the electricity. With each step, they first publically announced what they were doing. Each step was followed by delay so that international diplomats had an oppurtunity to resond. Why? What kind of covert action is that? Is that any way to build a nuclear bomb?

Of course a militant, right wing president distorts all this saying the reactor is restarted to make plutoniums. He counts on us being as misinformed as sycamore.

Why put fuel rods so that everyone knows where they are - fully exposed to military attack and difficult to recover? Why put rods where they cannot be used to create bomb material? Why announce each step, publically, in advance? Militant extremists would have you ignore those details. Undertoads summary also ignores basic facts. George Jr did something to start the above events. Of course. Just like in Gulf of Tonkin, too many never bothered to first learn these details.

N Korea is doing everything wrong if they are building a plutonium bomb. They are doing everything right if their intent is as the AP states:
Quote:
Withdrawing from the pact means the impoverished North is intent on raising pressure on the United States to negotiate over energy sources -- and is prepared to turn its back on its international obligations to do so.
Bottom line is the current problem is a disagreement between George Jr and the government of N Korea - which we believe is still run by Kim Jung Il. UN inspectors are only pawns. (to make it obvious: this paragaph explicity answers the Undertoad question).

If one is so certain N Korea is intentionally subverting the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and UN inspections in order to make war, then Undertoad or Sycamore can explain what George Jr did to trigger this whole fiasco. sycamore will avoid every oppurtunity to fill us with his knowledge. His shortage of knowledge is why he, instead, insults. However he has an oppurtunity to prove me wrong. What did George Jr do to trigger this event?

That will be difficult for those in love with George Jr to admit. Love makes one blind. Maybe. Let's see how much sycamore knows about recent events that lead up to this conflict. Let sycamore explain why S Koreans more fear George Jr than N Korea - being as they know what I suspect sycamore does not.



Undertoad  Tuesday Dec 31 06:14 PM

8 paragraphs, Syc. Spot on! Well done!



elSicomoro  Tuesday Dec 31 07:35 PM

*bows* Thank you UT, thank you. Hey, we should have a Cellar GTG, where all we do is watch Action News and read the Daily News. And then we will have Dubya worship...I already have a life-sized poster of him surrounded by burning candles in my living room.



Undertoad  Tuesday Dec 31 09:07 PM

Ohhh! he edited it so now it's 10 paragraphs. Oh well, you still claim the prize because it's the first time I read it that counts.



elSicomoro  Tuesday Dec 31 09:24 PM

He edited it out of spite.



Zorg  Wednesday Jan 1 05:23 AM

I think tw has the wrong site. If I wanted to hear unsupported, vitriolic leftist polemics I could go read Indymedia or something.

Not that I believe he's willing to listen to reason, but it should be pretty obvious with no UN inspectors or monitoring equipment in the country, a regime that has made clear in the past its willingness to violate treaty commitments in order to pursue nuclear weapons is not to be trusted with a bunch of plutonium. There's also the fact that(according to Rumsfeld, at least) that the North Korean electrical grid isn't in any shape to even bring the reactor online to produce electricity, which, given the state of the country's infrastructure, seems quite likely.



Undertoad  Wednesday Jan 1 10:31 AM

But the government has lied before, therefore the government is lying this time, and only I have the intelligence and presence of mind to detect this.



tw  Wednesday Jan 1 11:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
But the government has lied before, therefore the government is lying this time, and only I have the intelligence and presence of mind to detect this.
Those who cannot challenge the facts instead attack the messenger. A classic propaganda move to avoid the fact that N Korea has not violated all sorts of treaty obligations. One who is informed only by an war advocate would believe a silly idea that a N Korean electric system could not absorb 5 Megawatts. 5 megawatts could easily be even in any African electric system. Undertoad has posted pictures providing that 5 megawatts is desperately needed.

Posted was a specific question. The question was asked to learn if Undertoad or sycamore understood details before they marched off in admiration of George Jr. What recent event triggered these events. Insead of attacking the messenger, provide the world with knowledge that it seeks - if you can. What event triggered these events?


Al Gore smoking  Wednesday Jan 1 11:48 AM

(Al Gore raises his hand high in the air to get TW's attention)


I think I know. The evil, war mongering, right wing extremist, cowboy hat wearing, Supreme court manipulating George Jr. shut off the oil to N Korea. So now they cant run their oil powered electric generators to make power.

(Al kicks back in his seat, puts his feet up on the desk in front of him, and lights a Marlboro)

Did I tell you I went to Harvard University? That was before I took the initiative to create the internet.



Undertoad  Wednesday Jan 1 12:16 PM

I asked my questions first.

But if you really need an answer, then sure, why not. These events were triggered by North Korea resuming its nuclear program, in violation of UN and other international treaties, most especially the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, in 1998.



Zorg  Wednesday Jan 1 03:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tw

Those who cannot challenge the facts instead attack the messenger. A classic propaganda move to avoid the fact that N Korea has not violated all sorts of treaty obligations. One who is informed only by an war advocate would believe a silly idea that a N Korean electric system could not absorb 5 Megawatts. 5 megawatts could easily be even in any African electric system. Undertoad has posted pictures providing that 5 megawatts is desperately needed.

Posted was a specific question. The question was asked to learn if Undertoad or sycamore understood details before they marched off in admiration of George Jr. What recent event triggered these events. Insead of attacking the messenger, provide the world with knowledge that it seeks - if you can. What event triggered these events?
If North Korea really only want to use the nuclear power to produce electricity, why get rid of UN inspectors and monitoring equipment, which could insure that the world knew they weren't making bombs.

And as for NK not violating treaty obligations, the whole reason the Bush administration shut off fuel shipments to North Korea was because it was discovered they were pursuing an illegal nuclear weapons program.


tw  Thursday Jan 2 01:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zorg
If North Korea really only want to use the nuclear power to produce electricity, why get rid of UN inspectors and monitoring equipment, which could insure that the world knew they weren't making bombs.

And as for NK not violating treaty obligations, the whole reason the Bush administration shut off fuel shipments to North Korea was because it was discovered they were pursuing an illegal nuclear weapons program.
If Undertoad or sycamore would only answer a simple question, then it would be obvious what N Korea's intentions were. Making electricity nor bombs is not their primary objective. Making electricity is convenient now that the US has cut off oil supplied to make that reactor unnecessary. If the central issue is not addressed, then we may find the world with another 100 pounds of weapons grade plutonium.

If N Korea wanted to make plutonium bombs, then they would have removed seals, kicked out inspectors, and said nothing - all at once on that same day. They did not do any of that. They announced the inspectors would have to leave and then waited. They announced they would remove seals from nuclear rods, and then waited. Eventually they did remove seals and waited to let inspectors see where those rods were going - into the reactor. For another day's international news, only then did they enforce the deadline for inspectors to leave. They even made a big deal about removing the irrrelevant monitoring cameras. But by announcing those camera's removal, it made another big story for international news services. Every step was correographed for maximum international attention. Bomb making or electric production apparently is not N Korea's primary intent. They want world attention on something that neither Undertoad nor Sycamore appear to understand.

The uranium reprocessing still remains a mystery. Did that uranium processing violate any international agreements? That remains disputed. They did not violate a 1994 agreement that only applied to the plutonium and associated reactor. Is the uranium being reprocessed as highly enriched bomb material or low grade just for energy generation? That is not even clear. Even George Jr's administration avoids that significant difference. The only part of international agreements clearly violated by that uranium processing facility is that they refuse to permit IAEA inspectors to inspect that facility.

Was the uranium program being run by the country's hard line military structure without direct knowledge of Kim Jung Il's people? If so, then does Kim Jung Il really run the country or have hard liners turned Kim into a puppet leader? That uranium reprocessing facility does remain a confused reality - and not a good indication the N Korea is being fully honest with its neighbors and treaty obligations. Still the uranium processing facility is a separate issue from the unsealing and installation of nuclear rods.

Do events surrounding the plutonium rods sound like a country that wants to violate the nuclear non-proliferation agreements - or a country desperately trying to make an international point? If Undertoad or sycamore would only answer a simple question, then their point would be obvious. Unfortunately, too many people listen blindly to preachings from George Jr's right wing extremists. Total nonsense such as N Korea cannot absorb 5 trivial megawatts of electricity. Since those extremists did not provide essential details, then sycamore and Undertoad cannot answer the simple question - what recent event triggered the plutonium rod dispute? Why does the George Jr administration avoid mentioning this part of the dispute?

What is the event that triggered this N Korean disupte? I made the answer easy. Why is N Korea doing everything with that plutonium to make international news? And why are they not doing anything to make a plutonium bomb and to protect those fuel rods from military attack? Undertoad and sycamore must avoid these question to justiify this administration's fear and military threats. What is the event that triggered this N Korean dispute - the question that Undertoad and sycamore apparently fear to answer?


quzah  Thursday Jan 2 06:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
But the government has lied before, therefore the government is lying this time, and only I have the intelligence and presence of mind to detect this.
And our government has never lied? Or were you in fact talking about our governemnt? Jesus christ, that's absurd. Every government lies. However, you're blindly swallowing everything any of our "goverment leaders" spew out. Sure, be patriotic all you want, but at least pull your head out of the sand and consider the possiblity that our president is a fucking moron.

Quzah.


quzah  Thursday Jan 2 06:57 AM

This whole North Korea thing is, IMO, just to show us how two faced America is.

GW: "Oooooh evil Iraq has 'weapons of mass destruction'! We must keeeeel them."

GW: "Ooooooh North Korea is in the axis of evil because they are friendly with Iraq!"

North Korea: "Yeah dumb ass, we have nuke capability too. Come bomb us, chicken shit."

GW: -=voice of Killer the buzzard=- "Nope. Nope. Nope. Must be friendly. Must not bomb them."

WTF? Hello? Am I the only one here that sees how stupid this is? China has nukes. India. Pakistan. We're not bombing them. We bring up time and again how "evil Iraq" gassed and did all this shit to their own people. Do we ever mention that we helped them do it? Oh fuck no! Because then we'd look as supid as we really are.

But to on, just blindly let your governemnt do whatever they feel like. Support them all the way. Be sure and tell your congressman how happy you are with all the new "Homeland Security" bills they pass that rape you of your freedom also. They like that kind of support.

We just have to be the fucking police of the world. How stupid would it look if all of this sudden Canada decided that France couldn't export wine any more, because they didn't like that they had a few tanks? They lobby the world and slap them with trade embargos.

It's the same damn thing. We just decide what we want the rest of the world to do and are shocked shitless if they don't immediately bend over and grab their ankles.

I mean really, how dare another sovern nation dictate their own policies?

Quzah.



Undertoad  Thursday Jan 2 10:39 AM

tw, unlike yourself, I answered your question directly with one sentence.



tw  Thursday Jan 2 12:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
But if you really need an answer, then sure, why not. These events were triggered by North Korea resuming its nuclear program, in violation of UN and other international treaties, most especially the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, in 1998.
So what was George Jr's response?


Undertoad  Thursday Jan 2 03:59 PM

January 2002: President George W. Bush says North Korea, Iran and Iraq form an "axis of evil" threatening the world with weapons of mass destruction. North Korea says the remarks amount to a declaration of war.

April 2002: Bush issues a memorandum stating that he will not certify North Korea's compliance with the Agreed Framework. However he allows continued U.S. funding of oil shipments.

August 2002: KEDO holds a ceremony to mark the pouring of concrete foundations for the first LWR.

October 3-5, 2002: James Kelly, assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific affairs, confronts Pyongyang with U.S. evidence of a covert uranium enrichment programme. North Korea responds by saying it is "entitled to possess not only nuclear weapons but other types of weapons more powerful than them in defense of its sovereignty in face of the U.S. threat."

October 16, 2002: The United States announces that North Korea admitted during Kelly's visit to having a covert programme to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons.

October 25, 2002: North Korea's Foreign Ministry says it will address U.S. concerns about its nuclear programme if the United States signs a non-aggression treaty, guarantees Pyongyang's sovereignty and pledges not to interfere in its economic development.

November 14, 2002: The United States and its allies hold a KEDO meeting in New York and decide to cut off fuel oil shipments to North Korea, beginning in December.

November 29, 2002: The IAEA calls on North Korea to open its atomic weapons programme to inspections, says it "deplored" Pyongyang's assertion it had a right to possess the weapons.

December 4, 2002: North Korea rejects the IAEA call to open its weapons programme to inspections, saying the U.N. nuclear watchdog was abetting U.S. policy toward the North.

December 21, 2002: The IAEA says North Korea has disabled surveillance devices the agency had placed at the five-megawatt Yongbyon research reactor.

December 22, 2002: North Korea says it has begun removing IAEA monitoring equipment from Yongbyon, drawing condemnation from the United States, South Korea, Japan and France.

(Copied without permission from CNN who copied it with permission from Reuters. Original CNN link below contains many timeline points before Jan 2002.)

http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiap...timeline.reut/



tw  Thursday Jan 2 10:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
[b]January 2002: President George W. Bush says North Korea, Iran and Iraq form an "axis of evil" threatening the world with weapons of mass destruction. ...
October 3-5, 2002: James Kelly, assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific affairs, confronts Pyongyang with U.S. evidence of a covert uranium enrichment programme. North Korea responds by saying it is "entitled to possess not only nuclear weapons but other types of weapons more powerful than them in defense of its sovereignty in face of the U.S. threat." ...
November 14, 2002: The United States and its allies hold a KEDO meeting in New York and decide to cut off fuel oil shipments to North Korea, beginning in December. ...
And so events spiraled into potential confrontation. Korea is more dangerous than anything in Iraq. But what is the purpose of war? To put a dispute back on the negotiation table. If there are no talks, then war is a commonly used alternative to force discussion back to the table. Diplomatic discussion is never terminated - except when one wants war.

Therefore in the middle of November, only the US demanded that all further oil shipments be suspended to N Korea AND that all diplomatic channels be completely severed. All discussions terminated - both actions taken against objections of Japan and S Korea. A country that wishes to avoid war does not terminate all discussion. But George Jr personally ordered it. I can just imagine Colin Powell bristling - knowing full well that such an order could only create problems. It did.

Therein lies the reason for a long, drawn out, well publicized termination of Clinton's 1994 negotiated settlement. Having bluntly terminated all negotiation, George Jr forced N Korean moderates into an alliance with N Korean hard liners. Having terminated all discussions with N Korea, then even the moderates in N Korea had no alternative but to agree with N Korean extremists - to access those nuclear rods and restart the electric power plant.

Day after his Sunday morning talk shows, Colin Powell made a key statement. He said the US would "talk but not negotiate". That statement was in direct contradiction to George Jr's original orders. Later that week, George Jr also said the US would talk with N Korea. Breakthrough? I hope so.

Maybe the disagreement has stopped spiraling out of control. Clearly damage has been done to 'engage' N Korea into a world community. Engagement is the policy adovcated by Japan and openly touted by S Korea's Sunshine program. A question remains. Can engagement be restarted so that N Korean extremists don't get a plutonium bomb?

N Korea is not a monolithic dictatorship much as Gorbechev's first years were not a monolithic USSR. The N Korea famine only made it obvious to some N Koreans that hard liners policy was no longer acceptable. Important that the US tread carefully here so as to empower N Korean moderates. However we have undermined those moderates to the advantage of extremists - because we rattled sabers rather than use the conference table. We only proved that N Korean extremist are right - that we intend to invade and conquer N Korea.

N Korean hard liners typically have almost no knowlege of the world. Most are convinced that the US intents to attack N Korea at the first sign of weakness. These extremist hold extensive power. Moderates can only gain power if engagement with the outside world is productive. Both Japan and S Korea did not - repeat - did not want to terminate oil shipments to N Korea. Both believe that engagement is the only way to keep N Korea from becoming a military threat.

N Korea is a very dangerous situation IF not handled with full knowledge of power competition inside the N Korean government. To avoid war, those N Korean moderates must be empowered - by always maintaining diplomatic communication. The current plutonium dispute demonstrates that terminating discussion can only result in things worse.

George Jr should have responded negatively to those revelations that N Korea had a uranium program. However NEVER terminate diplomatic discussion - except if you want war. George Jr did the worst thing possible. Fortunately N Korea has not yet attempted to build a plutonium bomb AND demonstrated their intent not to do so - but only for now.


Undertoad  Friday Jan 3 01:03 AM

To quit negotiation is a fine tactic when you're in a position with time to spare, and where time will cause your opponent's position to deteriorate.

Stopping the oil trade (tied to the nuclear treaty), continuing the food aid, and not giving the tyrant the time of day seems to be the ideal choice.

The nuclear threat is not a bargaining chip to be dealt when a nation sees fit. Especially since they haven't fired off a test nuke. Normally a country blows up a patch of nothing to show everyone that they aren't lying, that they do have a nuke, and that their words actually do bear a greater level of seriousness.

That's more likely why Powell used the "believe" language, by the way. Until they explode one, even the North Koreans don't know if they really have a nuclear bomb.



Zorg  Friday Jan 3 02:54 AM

Well, tw is starting to make at least a small bit of sense. He's right in that at least a large part of North Korea's motivation in kicking out IAEA inspectors was to force concessions from the US and South Korea. Of course, the threat they used was the creation of more nuclear weapons, which they're more than likely to follow through on, since they've already taken the diplomatic heat for doing so. And why do you think this should be considered a mitigating factor? I'd say threatening the rest of the world every time you want to sit down at the negotiating table is not a good way to encourage goodwill towards yourself.



jaguar  Friday Jan 3 03:03 AM

Quote:
To quit negotiation is a fine tactic when you're in a position with time to spare, and where time will cause your opponent's position to deteriorate.
*sighs* I don't entirely agree with tw but the sunshine policy S Korea has been taking has been more positive than anything else and has seem positive cahnges, if small ones. I don't see the point of such a confrontational strategy, which is a huge risk if they do ahve a nuke, or even if they don't. The country may be a joke but they still have a huge army. Unless George wants to test out the fight two wars and win claim or something.

When it comes to diplomacy N Korea is the world's retarded child but this strategy still seems well...pointless to me.


tw  Friday Jan 3 11:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zorg
He's right in that at least a large part of North Korea's motivation in kicking out IAEA inspectors was to force concessions from the US and South Korea.
The concession demanded was only from the US. S Korea and Japan wanted to continue engagement with N Korea. Korea was demanding a concession only from the US. It is George Jr who ordered all further contact with N Korea be halted - to isolate N Korea. When Colin Powell said "talk without negotiation", those who appreciate the fine details understood that it would have been the US conceding - without appearing so. If George Jr has recinded his order of no further contact, then the US made a concession to N Korea. IF. I have yet to see any indication that talks with N Korea have actually resumed.

The South Koreans did not regard the North actions as a demand for concessions. They regard the startup of a nuclear reactor as a direct response to militant, cowboy diplomacy that contributes to destruction of treaty after treaty - from the Oslo Accords to the Strategic Arms treaty on anti-ballistic missiles to the US - N Korea 1994 agreement. George Jr keeps destroying treaties - and advocating war as a solution. Therefore S Koreans don't fear the North. They fear the American government. Based upon George Jr's history as President, S Koreans do have much reason to fear. Just the fact that he canceled all contacts with N Korea demonstrates how little he understands world diplomacy. No wonder he has diminished US relationships with virtually every nation in the world. Every George Jr solution to a problem is a military one. That most scares S Korea - as polls and the recent S Korean presidental election demonstrate.


tw  Friday Jan 3 09:00 PM

Notice what has happened with the Korean dispute. It was suppose to be about their secret uranium processing. But do to bad politics, the dispute shifted, instead, to nuclear rods that contain plutonium. What should have been addressed up front has instead become a secondary issue.

Refering to Undertoad's timeline:

Quote:
October 3-5, 2002: James Kelly, assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific affairs, confronts Pyongyang with U.S. evidence of a covert uranium enrichment programme.
What contigencies did the US plan for various N Korean responses. Apparently nothing. Terminating all diplomatic contacts appears to be only a knee jerk US reaction. The US had every oppurtunity to plan and maintain a diplomatic initative. But US negotiators apparently wasted that initative. They had no game plan beyond challenging the N Koreans with information. What kind of planning is that other than knee jerk diplomacy?

In the meantime, N Koreans 1) have successfully diverted attention to another issue - plutonium, AND 2) stated exactly why they starting a nuclear progam and 3) what it would take to terminate the program. N Korea's major fear is a US invasion. They want a non-agression treaty which should be no problem if the US does not intend to invade. If #3 is a bluff, well the US did not even call them on it. Instead of calling the bluff, the US terminated all negotiations. That only says to N Korean extremists that the US now intents to attack in the near future.

The US had no game plan behind James Kelly's challenge? As a result, the most imporant issue - uranium reprocessing - is no longer the primary issue. As a result, S Korea, who is not a target of N Korea's distrust, has offered to act as arbitrator between the two disputing parties - N Korea and US. S Korean president said both side must make concessions. Ironic that two nations most threatened by a nuclear N Korea are instead neutral parties in this dispute.

Rumors also suggest that neither Japan nor S Korea was even consulted before Kelly challenged the N Koreans. It all stinks of bad US diplomacy that even surrendered the diplomatic initative to the N Koreans. The US did not even have contingency plans for N Korean responese? Why not? This entire dispute has been badly mismanaged by the US as if the US had no idea what to do after Kelly challenged the N Koreans.


elSicomoro  Sunday Jan 5 11:27 AM

The North Korean Government

I originally put this link in the Manifestos, but I'll put it here too b/c it's...appropriate.



classicman  Wednesday Jun 24 02:31 PM

bumped for Queen



Queen of the Ryche  Wednesday Jun 24 03:48 PM

thanks.



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