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     Saturday Jun 9 12:41 PM

This is real live hooliganism between fans of Valencia and FC Bayern Munich in downtown Milan.

It really does amaze me how pointless violence is practically a hobby in some parts of the world. I read a book about English hooliganism written by a gonzo journalist who traveled with the hooligans themselves. You know, they plan for the violence. It doesn't just break out spontaneously. They travel to remote locations with the expectation that they will crack skulls and that their own skulls will get cracked.

It's truly an intoxicating, addictive feeling for them. And a practice they continue even as their friends are seriously injured, imprisoned on foreign soil, or killed. If they actually see the game associated with the trip, that's very secondary to the whole experience.

We Americans think we have a violent culture. We have no idea.

elSicomoro  Saturday Jun 9 11:21 PM

And they don't understand why the US is not so gung ho on soccer as they are in the rest of the world...

Notice though how peaceful World Cup '94 was...

  Sunday Jun 10 03:25 AM

And yet they see fit enough to condemn us as uncivilized for putting McVeigh to death.


  Sunday Jun 10 04:30 AM

Ah but you see, those sophisticated Europeans only beat the shit out of each other around soccer matches while you uncultured Americans do it all the time. =P

  Sunday Jun 10 04:34 AM


Why is it that the only soccer news in the world people in the US pick up is the bad stuff? Between hooligans and stadium disasters, that's all the coverage you see. Oh, well. What's a soccer fan too do?



  Sunday Jun 10 06:36 AM

What's the statistic? You're something like 10 times more likely to die by being murdered in the US than in Europe. It's not the large number of stupid hooligans that are dangerious to your health, but a smaller number of gun-carrying psychos.

  Sunday Jun 10 12:26 PM

I think I saw recently that you're roughly twice as likely to be a violent crime victim in England or France than in the US. But I can't find the numbers.

As far as soccer goes, I remain a Sheffield United F.C. supporter (first division and all) and would love to see more coverage of English League Football.

  Sunday Jun 10 02:50 PM

Perhaps you're right, but...

I can't remember where I got the original figure of 10 from, but another article here
suggests 30 times greater risk in US of being killed by firearms (which is subtley different).

  Sunday Jun 10 04:54 PM

My lack of info on this irks me so I've been searching the web for the last half-hour. The best info I've found so far is from a US Gov source at:

From all sources there, rates of crime in 1995 (last yr available):

Murder: US 5.7 times higher than England/Wales
Rape: US 3 times higher than England/Wales
Robbery: E/W 1.4 times higher than US
Assault: E/W 2.3 times higher than US
Burglary: E/W 2.3 times higher than US
Vehicle theft: E/W 2.2 times higher than US

Look at it another way: out of a million people in each country...

In the US, 74 will be murdered. In E/W, 13.
In the US, 71 will be raped. In E/W, 22.
In the US, 5,300 will be robbed. In E/W, 7,600.
In the US, 8,800 will be assaulted. In E/W, 20,000.
In the US, 47,000 will be burgled. In E/W, 82,900.
In the US, 10,800 will have their car stolen. In E/W, 23,600.

Total US victims: 72,045
Total E/W victims: 134,135

So you are roughly twice as likely to be a violent crime victim in England/Wales than in the US. Of course, being murdered is more serious than any other crime. I was assaulted in 1992, but I got better. (You can't even see the scar.) If I was murdered, I still wouldn't be over it. So draw your own conclusions.

  Sunday Jun 10 05:50 PM

So if I understand correctly, you are more likely to be assaulted in E/W (perhaps because the assailants know that you don't have a gun), but if you are assaulted in the US, then you are more likely to be killed (perhaps because the assailants have a gun and are not afraid to use it).

So our stats probably both correct.

Tony: twice as likely to be assaulted in E/W (tick)
Me: 30 times as likely that murdered with firearm in US. I.e. given that you were murdered, it was with a firearm. (very likely correct if you look at your stats above)

  Sunday Jun 10 06:03 PM

I think one of the bits said that only 5% of the violent English/Welsh crimes included a gun, while the US number was something like 60%, so you're right, we're both right.

  Sunday Jun 10 08:54 PM

And that would not have anything to do with strict guns laws in Britan now would it.....
'nuff said.

I like it, in the US youíre more likely to have raped and killed, and in the EU they just nick everything that isnít nailed down....
What a wonderful world we live in.

[Edited by jaguar on 06-10-2001 at 08:58 PM]

elSicomoro  Monday Jun 11 02:25 AM

Re: *sigh*

Originally posted by modernhamlet
Why is it that the only soccer news in the world people in the US pick up is the bad stuff? Between hooligans and stadium disasters, that's all the coverage you see. Oh, well. What's a soccer fan too do?
The true soccer fans go to <A HREF="">Football 365</A> ;-)

I'm a fan of Chelsea, primarily b/c I play them on FIFA 2000. (Haven't gotten the new one yet.)

I still follow DC United, although they suck AGAIN this year...and this is the ONLY reason I want to go back down to DC.

  Tuesday Jun 12 05:42 PM

re: *sigh*

I'm a Wolfsburg fan myself. Maybe 'cause I own a Jetta? I dunno!

And in spite of their lousy team and even worse name, I support the Columbus Crew.

And yes, football365 is good stuff. Agreed. is pretty solid as well, with good writing on a number of international and US football topics. Lots of opinion, which I like.



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