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   xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jan 18 07:18 PM

Jan 19th, 2015: Vegan's Savior

How do you know someone's a vegan? Just wait, they'll tell you. ba-dum-tss
It's funny because it's true, however once you get past the ones who are bandwagon jumpers and bragging, there's more to it. The rest are either the PETA camp whining about animal cruelty, or people who have actually read the evidence, and want to explain the many health benefits.

Since most people's eyes glaze over when anyone tells the about a healthier lifestyle, even(especially?) if it's their doctor, these folks usually throw in some be-good-to-the-Earth stuff to keep your attention. The fly (stop it) in their ointment is the difficulty, the work involved, in buying and preparing veggies to get enough protein.

Well, here she comes to save the day! Katharina Unger is on the way!



Quote:
Farm 432 enables people to become independent from the system of current meat production by growing their own protein source at home. After 432 hours, 1 gram of black soldier fly eggs turn into 2.4 kilogram of larvae protein, larvae that self-harvest and fall clean and ready to eat into a harvest bucket. Black soldier fly adults don´t eat, therefore they don´t have any mouth parts and do not transmit any disease. The larvae can be fed on bio waste, therefore the production almost costs no water or CO2. Black soldier fly larvae are one of the most efficient protein converters in insects, containing up to 42% of protein (dried), a lot of calcium and amino acids.
Yeah, the word larvae just rolls off the tongue in such a mouth watering fashion.

Now you know after this becomes the rage, the capitalists will jump in with both feet, trying to become your Black Soldier Fly Egg supplier. And don't forget items like Black Soldier Fly Larvae Helper.



Yes Rodney, we can all get along.


monster  Sunday Jan 18 07:28 PM

um, how would that be vegan? I'm confused



Undertoad  Sunday Jan 18 08:11 PM

Well the chickens eat the larvae right up, and then you -- uh --



Griff  Sunday Jan 18 08:41 PM

... trade the eggs for lettuce.



sexobon  Sunday Jan 18 10:04 PM

Maybe it saves vegans who fall off the bandwagon from going beyond the point of no return.



monster  Sunday Jan 18 10:50 PM

are they considering that the larvae are freely giving themselves to be eaten? So they'd actually fit in with a fruitarian diet? Or are we just interpreting vegans as people who don't approve of the farming of cute animals who appear regularly in story books?



sexobon  Sunday Jan 18 11:56 PM

It has more to do with the practical considerations of doing the greatest good for animals as a whole. Take a look at this article by a self described longtime vegan and vegan advocate:

Quote:
If Vegans Replaced Plants With Insects, They'd Harm Fewer Animals ...

... On the face of things, the question seems moot. Vegans don’t eat animals; insects are animals; vegans therefore don’t eat insects. End of story. But this simple little syllogism betrays the very real possibility that vegans, by virtue of their quest to reduce animal suffering, may not only be permitted to eat insects—they may be obligated to do so. ...
[READ THE ARTICLE FOR ARGUMENTS AND COUNTER-ARGUMENTS]

Quote:
... All that said, with the insect option now on the table the vegan equation has fundamentally changed. The choice is no longer between incidental or non-incidental deaths of obviously sentient creatures. It’s no longer between the mice crushed by a combine and the pig taken to the abattoir. Instead, it’s now between the intentional death of animals who likely suffer minimally or not at all (insects) and those that clearly do suffer (bunnies, deer, mice, etc.) when plants are grown.

As a longtime vegan and vegan advocate, I’m well aware how this argument threatens the vegan identity. Of course, it’s much easier to declare, “I don’t eat animals or animal products” than it is to blur the lines that serve as clear ethical commandments. But as the prospect of eating insects gains traction, vegans may be forced to acknowledge the inconvenient fact that including these critters in our diet—yes, eating animals—is an essential way to achieve the ultimate vegan goal of reducing the suffering of animals who we know can suffer.



xoxoxoBruce  Monday Jan 19 01:42 AM

Dietary vegans, ovo-lacto vegetarians, ethical vegans, and environmental vegans, all eschew animal protein as in sweet yummy bacon.
The larvae will give them lots of protein without molesting animals, their common goal.
I don't even know what he hell a fruitarian is.



Griff  Monday Jan 19 08:34 AM

The funny thing is I was going to design one of these things to automatically feed chickens. It is apparently pretty common in dirty hippie circles. Great design though if it wasn't bugs I'd eat what was produced in such a tidy way.



Sheldonrs  Tuesday Jan 20 09:30 AM

Seems reasonable. Most vegans seem to have a bug up their ass anyway.



blueboy56  Wednesday Jan 21 01:54 PM

If we aren't to eat meat, why then do we have incisors, canines (teeth) and premolars.

Eventually, we would only have molars and no front jaws.

Pardon me, we are omnivores, we have always been omnivores and I intend to stay that way.

So there.



xoxoxoBruce  Wednesday Jan 21 03:44 PM

How dare you question dog's wisdom...






orthodoc  Wednesday Jan 21 09:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueboy56 View Post
If we aren't to eat meat, why then do we have incisors, canines (teeth) and premolars.

Eventually, we would only have molars and no front jaws.

Pardon me, we are omnivores, we have always been omnivores and I intend to stay that way.

So there.
Horses, cattle, sheep, all have incisors, canines, and premolars. Their teeth are remarkably, astonishingly like ours. Incisors, canines, and premolars are used for cutting, tearing, and mashing (prior to grinding) ... of virtually any foodstuff, plants included.

We are obviously capable of being omnivores, but the question is not whether we can, but what we ought.

On that, the science is in.


Griff  Wednesday Jan 21 09:32 PM

btw: Now reads as Vegans savor.



orthodoc  Wednesday Jan 21 09:37 PM

As for the larvae ... bleeecccchhh.

Any vegan worth the name knows that it's impossible to be protein-deficient if you're taking in enough calories to meet your metabolic needs (roughly 700 kcal/day). Protein deficiency is called kwashiorkor. It really isn't an issue in the USA, particularly among those who are vegans by decision.



Happy Monkey  Wednesday Jan 21 09:42 PM

You can if you refuse to eat food containing DNA.



orthodoc  Wednesday Jan 21 09:43 PM

??? You can what? No one said anything about refusing to eat food containing DNA.



Happy Monkey  Wednesday Jan 21 09:45 PM

Be protein deficient.

I was referencing a recent study where people when polled wanted food containing DNA to be labeled.

My link is to an article about how that poll was silly.



orthodoc  Wednesday Jan 21 09:58 PM

Thanks for that. The conclusion was reasonable: that people, when confronted with a question formulated so as to be ridiculous, answer the more reasonable question they assume you meant to ask.

All of which is still to say that North Americans are in no danger of being protein deficient, vegan or non-vegan.



sexobon  Wednesday Jan 21 10:20 PM

The topic of insects wasn't really brought up as a supplement for protein deficiency; rather, as a protein substitute for plants to reduce the collateral damage to other animals that occurs when raising and harvesting crops.



orthodoc  Wednesday Jan 21 10:34 PM

Agreed, that current farming methods are harmful ... both the despicable treatment of most animals destined for grocery stores, and the cultivation of feed crops for factory-farmed animals. There's a better solution than farming black soldier fly larvae (or any other insects) for human consumption, though.



sexobon  Wednesday Jan 21 10:45 PM

Of course, everyone knows that we should be eating our dead.




BigV  Thursday Jan 22 01:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Monkey View Post
You can if you refuse to eat food containing DNA.
my favorite part of that article:
Quote:
If you ask a question that is nuts when interpreted precisely, but is basically similar to a sensible question, people are going to answer the question they think you meant to ask. People are helpful that way, even when it isn’t helpful.



BigV  Thursday Jan 22 01:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sexobon View Post
Of course, everyone knows that we should be eating our dead.

of course it's dead.


as opposed to eating.. .. the ... living????!!!!


xoxoxoBruce  Thursday Jan 22 03:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by orthodoc View Post
Horses, cattle, sheep, all have incisors, canines, and premolars. Their teeth are remarkably, astonishingly like ours. Incisors, canines, and premolars are used for cutting, tearing, and mashing (prior to grinding) ... of virtually any foodstuff, plants included.
No.
Cattle and sheep have no upper incisors which is why they can't bite off anything. They use the lower incisors to rip vegetation like you'd tear off a piece of waxed paper. Cattle have no canine teeth, and while the sheep's outside set of incisors are called canines they are hardly capable of ripping anything tougher than grass. Both cattle and sheep have premolars and molars which are strictly for chewing and grinding, because they are too far back in their mouth to bite anything.

Oh, and weresheep? Only Gromit can see them, so no worry there.


Clodfobble  Thursday Jan 22 08:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueboy56
If we aren't to eat meat, why then do we have incisors, canines (teeth) and premolars.

Eventually, we would only have molars and no front jaws.

Pardon me, we are omnivores, we have always been omnivores and I intend to stay that way.
I find a very weird dissonance in people who talk about what we (as a whole) are "meant" to eat due to evolution, as if evolution is akin to predestiny. The whole point of evolution is that if we have to change due to our environment, then we (as a whole) can do that. By definition we (as a whole) don't have to do what our ancestors did--if our environment suddenly makes it so that nothing but meat is available to eat, then we'll eat that, a bunch of us will die, but the ones whose metabolisms can manage it, if only barely, will have babies who are better at it, and in a few thousand years we'll be like lions scoffing at how we were never "meant" to eat produce.

On an individual level, it's an entirely different story. I know what works best for my one body, personally, and I don't give a shit what vegans or bacon-lovers or anyone else thinks I "should" be eating.


xoxoxoBruce  Thursday Jan 22 01:27 PM

I think I'd like to study your body more closely... Uh, for scientificical like stuff... yeah, that's it, for the good of the species. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.



Clodfobble  Thursday Jan 22 06:05 PM

Good for species morale, no doubt, but I think it's safe to day that my genetic contribution to the species is iffy at best. But I'm all for raising, ah, morale.



sexobon  Friday Jan 23 02:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble View Post
I find a very weird dissonance in people who talk about what we (as a whole) are "meant" to eat due to evolution, as if evolution is akin to predestiny. ...
Some things are better attributed to creationism like if God didn't intend for man to eat pussy, he wouldn't have made it look like a taco.


Sundae  Friday Jan 23 05:32 AM

I would not eat a taco that came with hairs attached.



Sheldonrs  Friday Jan 23 01:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundae View Post
I would not eat a taco that came with hairs attached.
How about a hotdog? :-)


Sundae  Saturday Jan 24 01:09 PM

Well, you need a few hairs on that to floss afterwards, right



Griff  Saturday Jan 24 06:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble View Post
On an individual level, it's an entirely different story. I know what works best for my one body, personally, and I don't give a shit what vegans or bacon-lovers or anyone else thinks I "should" be eating.
Everybody is a little different outside the general stuff. I've noticed a relationship between sugar and inflammation for me. We're going to ease back into the dirty hippie foods and see if I can't dump some belly weight.


Sheldonrs  Sunday Jan 25 12:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundae View Post
Well, you need a few hairs on that to floss afterwards, right
Think of the time savings if you put tooth paste on it first.


xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jan 25 12:40 AM

Ouch!



BigV  Monday Jan 26 11:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble View Post
I find a very weird dissonance in people who talk about what we (as a whole) are "meant" to eat due to evolution, as if evolution is akin to predestiny. The whole point of evolution is that if we have to change due to our environment, then we (as a whole) can do that. By definition we (as a whole) don't have to do what our ancestors did--if our environment suddenly makes it so that nothing but meat is available to eat, then we'll eat that, a bunch of us will die, but the ones whose metabolisms can manage it, if only barely, will have babies who are better at it, and in a few thousand years we'll be like lions scoffing at how we were never "meant" to eat produce.

On an individual level, it's an entirely different story. I know what works best for my one body, personally, and I don't give a shit what vegans or bacon-lovers or anyone else thinks I "should" be eating.
I feel similarly. To me, it's more correct to think of it as hearing blueboy56's statement as "our ancestors were successful (at eating and living and reproducing) by eating meat; that worked for them and we have the same tools (teeth), so let's go with the same plan!". It's too simplistic. It reverses cause and effect, with regard to evolution (and never mind the vast generational timescales involved to produce different teeth in a population).


Happy Monkey  Monday Jan 26 01:54 PM

It only works as a rebuttal to any claims that we are not meant to eat meat.

If you take it further, and claim that we can, therefore we must, then it doesn't work.

It happens a lot in internet argument; an argument that only works as a response is erroneously used on its own.



glatt  Monday Jan 26 02:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Monkey View Post
It happens a lot in internet argument; an argument that only works as a response is erroneously used on its own.
Does anyone argue about this stuff anywhere else?


xoxoxoBruce  Monday Jan 26 02:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Monkey View Post
If you take it further, and claim that we can, therefore we must, then it doesn't work.
Correct, however the claim that we can demonstrates we are omnivores. Therefore we get to choose... between being a Dietary/ovo-lacto/ethical/environmental vegan, or sweet, crispy, tasty, luscious bacon.

Yes glatt, lots of places.


Happy Monkey  Monday Jan 26 03:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by glatt View Post
Does anyone argue about this stuff anywhere else?
Before the internet, it was probably mostly one-on-one correspondence, or competing editorials in monthly journals. I would guess (but having no first-hand experience, I wouldn't claim) that the signal to noise ratio was a bit higher.

I'm sure every category of logical fallacy in today's arguments occurred plenty of times before the internet, but not in such volume.


Lamplighter  Monday Jan 26 04:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by glatt View Post
Does anyone argue about this stuff anywhere else?
Yes, I suspect so.

In every dorm room on every college campus world-wide has had these discussions,
let alone the formal classes in philosophy, zoology, geology, sociology, law (e.g. Scopes trial),
and maybe more so in religious classes and classes about religion, and

... in my household around the "kitchen table", with each daughter as she passed the teeny-bopper stage.


xoxoxoBruce  Monday Jan 26 10:44 PM

Especially since it seems every new thing down the pike has been seized by a small percentage who are extremely militant about it. This is what created the standard saw about how do you know if someone is vegan?

Seems to be an increase in aggressive people willing to go balls to the wall over trivial shit, maybe encouraged by the internet. Not that the internet is a bad thing, but it's allowed psychopaths who kept a low profile, to find kindred spirits to assure them they are not antisocial, the rest of society just can't handle the truth.



Clodfobble  Tuesday Jan 27 10:09 AM

From a local bookstore flyer about upcoming events.

Wednesday: Vegan Survival Guide
Thursday: Mike Huckabee

Nothing could better encapsulate this city I live in.



glatt  Tuesday Jan 27 10:16 AM

That's awesome.



xoxoxoBruce  Tuesday Jan 27 01:40 PM

Thursday ~ Vegan Survival Guide to Austin;
.................Tip # 1 ~ Don't come back on Friday.



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