6/15/2003: Palestinians swarm for body parts

Little Green Footballs is my source for these shots. LGF is roughly dedicated to documenting radical Islamism and its activities and results, and has found this odd practice of Palestinians. When the IDF blows up one of the bad guys via a missile attack, tons of Pals rush the scene in a frenzy, searching for body parts. When they find something they hold it up and treasure it, sometimes parading it through the streets in a fervor, chanting Islamic slogans.



On the face of it, these things seem barbaric. LGF's tendency is to label the Pals a sort of blood cult, with children being taught hatred and death and destruction from infancy.

I do think that's a part of it. Even with the understanding that LGF is heavily biased, the factual information it presents just can't be ignored. It shows that the Palestinian leaders have cultivated the radical elements of their society for a very long time. It ensures a ready stream of suicide terrorists. It produces a public actually happy with the terrible conditions that result from complete economic collapse and disorder. (Their fervor instructs them that things are actually going well, y'see...)

While our natural western tendency is to find some kind of moral equivalence here, in fact doing that kind of thing often produces a complete misunderstanding of the real situation, and an instinct to explain away behavior like this.

In this case I feel we shouldn't. Whatever your political leaning, drop it; this is a cultural/religious thing. Their reaction to death is to truly celebrate it in detail as a victory for their side... no matter who dies. They love the death. That's wrong. No moral equivalence this time. Sorry.

From what I understand...

The Islamic faith states that anyone who dies while killing 'infidels' is promised a seat at Allah's table (or at his right hand or something like that). Also any 'infidels' killed by someone of the Islamic faith is 'redeamed' and their soul is sent to Allah.

I guess you could say that the Christian God says 'Thou shalt not kill' and Allah says 'Thou shalt kill infidels and yourself'

(BTW: this is just an educated guess from snipets of info. Please tell me if I'm wrong... )

<i>It shows that the Palestinian leaders have cultivated the radical elements of their society for a very long time. It ensures a ready stream of suicide terrorists.
It produces a public actually happy with the terrible conditions that result from complete economic collapse and disorder. (Their fervor instructs them that things are actually going well, y'see...)
In this case I feel we shouldn't. Whatever your political leaning, drop it; this is a cultural/religious thing. Their reaction to death is to truly celebrate it in detail as a victory for their side... no matter who dies. They love the death. That's wrong. No moral equivalence this time.
</i>

No, you simply don't understand. It's totally idiotic to suggest that any group of people would be happy with such terrible conditions-- humans are humans. It might make you feel superior to them, which helps justifiy the violence against them, but religion is not a particularly significant factor; many Palestinians are Christian or secular, after all.

Essentially here you have a population of poor indigenous people who have been driven from their land and inhumanely oppressed by a bunch of Europeans. That they have survived such a brutal occupation is an achievement in itself. They are not celebrating death-- it's the Israelis who tore this body to shreds, remember. They are simply honouring their war dead. Yeah, it may seem gruesome to you, but then again, you aren't surrounded by dead countrymen on a daily basis.

As for the suicide bombers-- yeah, they are horrific and terrible. But it's not hard to see how they develop. They don't come from the Palestinian leadership, which is non-religious and which the bombers don't actually respect (would you blow yourself up for bush?) They are the by-product of israeli aggression-- if another people invaded, stole your land, poured racist scorn over you, killed your family members, collectively tortured your people, you might end up hating enough to blow yourself up to. All humans have their breaking points.



<i>While our natural western tendency is to find some kind of moral equivalence here, in fact doing that kind of thing often produces a complete misunderstanding of the real situation, and an instinct to explain away behavior like this.</i>

Your smugness is unjustified. It has nothing to do with being eastern or western; it has everything to do with the torture endured by the palestinian people, paid for with our tax dollars.




<i>I guess you could say that the Christian God says 'Thou shalt not kill' and Allah says 'Thou shalt kill infidels and yourself'

(BTW: this is just an educated guess from snipets of info. Please tell me if I'm wrong... )</i>

This is not an educated guess, anymore than The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was written by Barbara Streisand. This is plain old bigotry.

Re: From what I understand...

Quote:

Originally posted by Stonan I guess you could say that the Christian God says 'Thou shalt not kill' and Allah says 'Thou shalt kill infidels and yourself' (BTW: this is just an educated guess from snipets of info. Please tell me if I'm wrong... )

<i>Essentially here you have a population of poor indigenous people who have been driven from their land and inhumanely oppressed by a bunch of Europeans.</i>

But when you think about it, that describes an awful lot of colonies and former colonies. Some cultures produce a Ghandi in response to occupation. And some produce the above. What's the difference? Both are only human, why the vastly different response?

They have now been offered a state. Some of their response to the offer was to kill or maim 120 innocent bystanders and bus riders with rusty nails. A majority of Pals believe that "occupation" includes the entire land of Israel. Those are the facts of the last few weeks; how does this square with your understanding of the situation?

UT has exposed two cults in this diatribe, one among the Palestinian people and one among the American people. It takes a special belief system to take a photo of the IDF's life affirming activity and spin it into a de-humanizing rant about the person blown up. Insert cult like anti- intervention rant here.

But when you think about it, that describes an awful lot of colonies and former colonies. Some cultures produce a Ghandi in response to occupation. And some produce the above. What's the difference? Both are only human, why the vastly different response?

The two cases are just too different. The Indians numbered in the hundreds of millions; the British could not crush them militarily or ethnically cleanse them from their land-- it just wasn't feasible, nor were the British interested in stealing and settling the land. Nor were the Indians so brutally decimated. Yes, the British performed massacres, but they could never have made life so miserable for every Indian as the Israelis have done for every Palestinian man, woman, and child. So nonviolence was a viable option in India. The Palestinian population is small enough to control and grind away at. If there were a Palestinian Gandhi, we simply wouldn't hear about him, or he would be targetted by the Israelis, or run over by a bulldozer as the current non-violent activists. There are plenty of non-violent activists in Palestine, and I admire them greatly, but we don't hear much about them. We only hear about the crazy suicide bombers which fuel our stereotypes of Palestinians as an entirely barbaric people who just hate because they are taught/born to hate.


They have now been offered a state. Some of their response to the offer was to kill or maim 120 innocent bystanders and bus riders with rusty nails. A majority of Pals believe that "occupation" includes the entire land of Israel. Those are the facts of the last few weeks; how does this square with your understanding of the situation?

The occupation (no need for quotes, that's the legal word for it, and even Sharon has used it) of course includes the whole land of what is now called Israel. However, the majority of Palestinians do not insist on taking it all back; they realize that that is now an unrealistic goal and all they want is 22% of their land back-- the 1967 territories. The majority accept that! But they have never been offered a <b>viable</b> state-- if you bother to check out the details, you will see that they are being screwed. The Israelies are trying to take as much of that remaining 22% of possible, offering either nothing or worthless land in return, and maintaining control over water and other important things in the reservations they are offering the Palestinians.

Here's another chucklehead that deserves an inoperable tumor at the base of their spine.

rumi -

Do you ever think the Palestinians will get what they want when extremists make it so easy for the Israelis to justify the occupation? Why do you think popular support for the occupation in Israel is so high?

Surely rational minds such as yourself are needed to calm the tensions; unfortunately, they are <b>never</b> heard over the extremists. Whereas the extremists in Israel are despicable and need a reality check, those on the Palestinian side are <b>even worse</b> (in <b>deliberately targetting innocent women and children</b>) and make it a cakewalk for Sharon and other far-right politicians in Israel to justify "retaliatory" attacks on Palestinians.

To the world, a girl shot point blank in the head in her home is far harder to justify than one who happened to be in the car of her militant father when it was hit by a missile.

<i>Lemme ask you this: when was the last time you heard of an Israeli woman suicide bomber?</i>

When was the last time you heard of a Palestinian Apache helicopter strike killing 9 children? A Palestinian tank running over disabled, elderly Israelis in their homes? A Palestinian F16 firing into the Knesset?

One of the reasons there are suicide bombers is the grim fact that they very few ways of attacking their enemy. If our tax dollars paid for tanks, missiles, bombs, bulldozers, fighter jets etc. for the Palestinians, then the suicide bombers would surely use those instead of their primitive explosives, and save their own lives in the process.

Similarly, it's unfair to say Palestinians are worse because they shoot 5 year olds in the head while Israelis kill innocents only incidentally. (By the way, I think anyone who shoots a child -- Palestininian or Israeli -- is just evil.)

-The Israelis kill a lot of children, and intentionally, with their tanks and rubber coated bullets. That's a well-documented fact, and one of the reasons the Israelis don't want an international force there to monitor crimes and keep the peace in the occupied territories.
-The majority (or at least a very significant minority) of Palestinian casualties are children. The stats show that is the Palestinian kids who are dying, much more so than the Israelis... by a factor of 7 to 1 or something like that.
-In our legal system, there is no difference between killing someone intentionally and killing someone unintentionally while trying to kill someone else, if you know that there is a likelyhood that innocents will die.

You can't say the Israelis are better or more humane at all. They are simply better equipped to kill with more efficiency.

We should simply stop equipping them... and insist that they do the right thing. The violence will disappear naturally, because the root cause --the occupation-- will be gone.

The problem is that if we stop equipping the Israelis, we've done nothing to quell the extremists in the Palestinian side. Whereas many Palestinians would be happy with their own state, many will not. And it doesn't take many to make a situation ugly. Watch two or three suicide bombers derail end-of-occupation talks. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa's, etc will always be able to muster the requisite numbers when their goal is to breed hatred. Why is this their goal? Because it is necessary if their ultimate goal is to come to fruition - the destruction of Israel. Hamas has no power if Abbas succeeds. He is being sabotaged from many sides, and I, for one, do not envy him.

Again, the problem with suicide bombers, no matter how you argue them, is that it keeps Israeli support for occupation high, and it gives Israel an easy excuse for firing those missiles. How could Israel possibly justify an attack against a peaceful society that had renounced violence in all forms?

And stop with the tax money already. Before the US ever got interested in Israel, it had already fought and won several full-out wars. They could certainly peck away at the west bank and gaza if the US didn't send any money at all. That money is largely from a peace agreement and a similarly large amount of money goes to Egypt.

My next question is why doesn't Arafat use some of his billion$ to improve the situation? He's rich beyond our wildest dreams. But it turns out he would rather keep the Pals where they are -- it benefits him.

They've been offered a state, and turned it down to start the current intifada. The roadmap offers a state but they don't want the one they've been offered -- they want the one next to it.

Rumi:

The suicide bombers are not a natural response of an oppressed indigenous population or any rot like that. They are tools of whoever is sending them, nothing more.

Israel seems to have finally figured out that they can make as many concessions as they want provided they condition them on the ending of Palestinian violence -- because there's no one on the Palestinian side who can say "stop". Any of the various factions can say "go", and most of them do.

Given that Israel is basically an American colony, I can't see any circumstances under which America will apply any serious pressure to stop the Palestinian holocaust. They'll all be dead or displaced within 20 years.

Eck, I've become one of those people who posts large posts that reply to many people and doesn't say much coherent!

Backing it up:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-...o_Israel1.html

Summary: the real money starts in 1974, after the wars in which the current borders were established. The US gave minor economic assistance in the early years which quickly dropped off to nothing. Military loans were minor until 1971 and certainly meaningless in the 1967 war where that land was taken.

Another page at the site notes that "Between 1946 and 1971, the U.S. provided Israel with an average of about $60 million a year, a total of $1.5 billion. By comparison, the Arab states received nearly three times as much aid, $4.4 billion, or $170 million per year."

http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/hitler.htm

Q: "Mr. Gandhi, I understand the concept of non-violence and civil dis-obedience. Do you really think it would work in all situations? For example, against a monster like Hitler ?"

A: Non-violence does not mean making peace. On the other hand, it means fighting bravely and sincerely for truth and doing what is just. Like all fights, there will be a terrible loss and pain. But a satyagrahi (soldier of civil disobedience) must go on.
My success with civil disobedience in South Africa and in India has not come easy. A large number of people sacrificed a great deal, including their lives while fighting for truth and justice.

The doctrine of Satyagraha works on the principle that you make the so called enemy see and realize the injustice he is engaged in. It can work only when you believe in God and the goodness of the people to see that they are wrong. As a satyagrahi, I do believe that non-violence is a potent weapon against all evils. I warn you however, that the victory will not come easy- just like it will not come easy with violent methods such as fighting with weaponry.

Thank you UT, I hadn't realized that before. I had thought that the aid from the US had been pretty much steady since 1948. I had hunted for information on Google before posting that, and all of the sites that I found seemed to imply that the US had steadfastly supported Israel in financial and military (et cetera) manners.

goethan: Hm. I will have to search for where I heard that.

hey, look what I found!

<a href="http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/mideast.htm">Gandhi on Palestine, 1938</a>

In the chart UT linked there is (pre 1984) about 12 B in loans. Does anyone know if these were repaid? Forgiven? Outstanding?

Well done ,Richlevy.

What About Other Arab Countries?

This entire discussion has been about Israel's "oppression" of the Palestinian people. Has anyone stopped to ask what aid is offered to the Palestinians by other Arab countries?

My understanding is that it is next to nothing. They have been expelled from every Arab country that took them in, and treated badly while they were there.

As long as the focus is on Isreal and Arafat the other Arab countries can go on with thier own human rights violations. Maybe it's time to look in other areas for solutions.

I have a radical idea, here....

Why don't we just mind our own business and let them kill each other? They've been doing it forever...who appointed us the world's policeman? Why should we get our people killed in something that affects us not at all?

Why are we so concerned? Really? I'm not being sarcastic. I wanna know. I wanna know why we feel we have to intervene in everyone's business, especially when it doesn't have anything to do with us.


Sidhe

Amen

I agree completely with Sidhe. Some might say that "with power comes responsibility". WHich is very true however, that responsibility is not the be the gestapo of the world, it is the responsibility to control our own power and not just fling out our long military arm wherever we deem fit.
Saying that, I am definitly not for isolationism though, just look where that got us in WW1. We need to re-evaluate where, how, and why we send our forces, our brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers, off to fight and die.

Why are we so concerned? Really? I'm not being sarcastic. I wanna know. I wanna know why we feel we have to intervene in everyone's business, especially when it doesn't have anything to do with us.

The simple answer is we have a reasonably large Jewish population here in the US, and they care about what happens around Israel.

When picking allies in the world it is better to pick the ones that are democratic, productive, powerful, well-located for military operations, and don't cut off their women's clitorises.

Profound statement Toad !!!!!!
I see a tag line !!!

Okay, Toad...post some articles about the Palestinians and FGM.

FGM For Goyim Magazine?

Female Genital Mutilation

You'll get a reward.

Besides, you said "democratic, productive, powerful, well-located for military operations" and the Pals don't even have a damn country.

Middle Eastern ones, anyway.

I thought that whole FGM thing was african not middle eastern.

The Saudis and Egyptians do it too

It seems to be a Muslim thing. I've not heard of cases outside that religion.

Predominant in parts of Africa...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm