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   Undertoad  Monday Jun 23 02:34 PM

6/23/2003: Bloody antler trade



In the distant land of Gorny Altai, Russia, somewhere in Siberia near Mongolia, the locals steal the antlers from the local deer. They do this not because they like antler-less deer, but because there is a big trade in antlers. Here they lead a stag into this strange contraption which stops it from moving at all.



They saw the antlers off with a regular hand saw.



A few of the locals surprise the tourists with this practice, which probably gives the stag a chance to return some bad karma through blood-borne disease and parasites.

Remarkably, this is the major export in this region of the world. The antlers go mostly to Asia for use in traditional medicines. (The stag lives on, none the worse for it all.)

Reuters feature story



Happy Monkey  Monday Jun 23 02:48 PM

NONE the worse?

I wouln't say "none the worse". He probably feels pretty bad for a while, and gets no hot does that year.



Uryoces  Monday Jun 23 04:00 PM

This could be bad in the sense that the antlers havn't fallen off naturally. If they'renot swabbing the end with antibiotics, it would be nice to see them smear the end with latex paint to seal it. Preferably not white latex...



chrisinhouston  Monday Jun 23 04:15 PM

I read the article and it mentions

"Some deer die from shock during the de-horning but in this case the stag's stumps were treated with salt and the animal was released back into the lush mountains to grow new antlers -- which one day will be culled again."

So, some are the worse for it and how about a nice dash of salt on the fresh wound!

The article also mentions that some Russians mix the blood with vodka. Not surprising as they seem to mix vodka with everything! Really brings meaning to a Bloody Mary.

Besides messing with the deer's mind, I wonder how this practice effects things like mating. Typically male deer and other horned mammals grow horns as part of the courtship ritual when finding a companion to mate with. I would imagine that this deer will be sitting the season out.



xoxoxoBruce  Monday Jun 23 06:01 PM

Lot of mixed up info in this article. Antler and horn are not interchangable and I don't believe either one has nerves so pain is not an issue as far as the cutting or salt goes. The bleeding from the neck is a common practice in many parts of the world for domestic livestock. They call them farms but I think they're more free range herds than what we consider farms. Damage to the animals psyche would be the same as an escape from a bear or lion or maybe branding. Aren't blood baths a russian tradition since 1918? Why is that kid in the back smiling?



juju  Monday Jun 23 06:20 PM

Unfortunately, I don't think that's correct. Before deer antlers get hard, they are a live appendage and cause considerable pain when lopped off. Check out this exerpt from here:

<blockquote>Antlers are defined as the appendages which grow annually from the pedicle formation of the frontal bone of deer. They are therefore quite unlike the horns of cattle, sheep and goats, which do not regrow if removed correctly. Antlers also develop and mature in a manner different to horns and broadly two stages of antler development are recognised: velvet antler and hard antler.

Velvet antler is defined as growing antler which contains an abundant blood and nerve supply and which has a fully intact skin with a covering of fine soft hair. The surgical removal of velvet antler without some form of anaesthesia will cause pain and distress to the animal.

Hard antler is the antler when growth has ceased, calcification has occurred, and the skin,nerve and blood supply are no longer functional. This is when the antler has no live skin at its base. Hard antler can be removed above the pedicle without causing any pain or bleeding. Hard antlers are shed naturally just before new velvet antlers begin to develop from the pedicle.</blockquote>



juju  Monday Jun 23 06:24 PM

Frankly, I find this disgusting.



Leah  Monday Jun 23 06:31 PM

Yes the guy standing in the back ground does look very suspicious and devious. Dirty Russian



xoxoxoBruce  Monday Jun 23 07:48 PM

Quote:
Unfortunately, I don't think that's correct. Before deer antlers get hard, they are a live appendage and cause considerable pain when lopped off. Check out this exerpt from here:
I stand corrected. Reading that linc made me laugh. When any government anywhere gets involved, they sure can write rules at great length. You'd think they got paid by the line.


Shivaaa  Monday Jun 23 11:11 PM

Eastern woodies

I am surprised no one has commented on the "medicine" that is made from the deer antlers. They are used to cure Bob Dole's problem:E.D. It is all about the male erection industry, don't you know.

FYI: The Jackson Hole boy scout troop is the richest boy scout troop in the nation, by far. Each year, the boy scouts are allowed to collect the antlers left on the ground at the national elk preserve.

I personaly can't attest to deer or elk antler's efficacy. Since most of Asia is horny for the stuff, it is probably more than a wives tail.



chrisinhouston  Monday Jun 23 11:15 PM

Dirty Russian

"Dirty Russian"
That's when you mix the deer blood and vodka and the olive juice together and a shot of Tabasco!

YUM



quzah  Tuesday Jun 24 01:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
They call them farms but I think they're more free range herds than what we consider farms. Damage to the animals psyche would be the same as an escape from a bear or lion or maybe branding.
Like anyone really gives a shit what animals "feel" right? If they do, they're labled an activist and all the "normal people" mock them. People don't care where their food/medicine/whatever comes from, so long as it's convenient and some one else does the "dirty work" for them. I hate people. I really do.

Quzah.


dave  Tuesday Jun 24 06:16 AM

I'm a meat eater, but I do care about how the animals feel. I'm trying to be better. Really.

For example, take one of the most common foods these days - chicken. The conditions they're brought up in at places like Perdue and Tyson are pretty fuckin' bad. So then I read about this place called Bell & Evans, who lets chickens reach their slaughter size naturally, without any hormones or anything. They're kept in roomy and comfy places instead of being packed into one of those football-field sized cages that holds god knows how many. Everything about their chicken raising is humane. Now, the chicken costs more, but it's not prohibitively expensive, and I have a relatively clean conscience when I bite down into a burrito packed with their meat. We <b>are</b> higher on the food chain, and I have no problem with eating animals. But if there's a more humane way to do the whole raise & slaughter thing (and there is), I'm all for it.

More info at http://www.bellandevans.com



Leus  Tuesday Jun 24 10:06 AM

Also, nothing can beat the taste of naturally raised chicken. Their eggs are delicious, too.

Hmm... omelette.




dave  Tuesday Jun 24 10:25 AM

Well, I happen to agree. It's a better taste, to me. But honestly, I like any chicken. My main reason for eating Bell & Evans is that they do (mostly) right by the chicken, and I want to support that.



Leus  Tuesday Jun 24 11:24 AM

That's very nice of yours. To me, it's all about the taste



xoxoxoBruce  Tuesday Jun 24 05:14 PM

Quote:
I hate people. I really do.
That makes us even.

The problem with chickens in a roomy environment is they like to beat each other up. I met a man that made a fortune making plastic chicken coop window covers that filtered the light so the chickens could not see red. If a chickens see blood on another chicken, they'll peck it to death.


dave  Tuesday Jun 24 05:28 PM

That's why most of these huge enclosures are dark. Chickens freak out in the light.



gossard187  Wednesday Jun 25 02:01 AM

the other option is to use only red light. then they don't know when their random pecking actually draws blood (which would then cause a problem). So since its all red all the time they act fine.

Though you'd think they'd go nuts eventually (if chickens are capable of that). Sorta like the Seinfeld with the Kenny Rogers Roasters sign across the street.



quzah  Wednesday Jun 25 02:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
That makes us even.

The problem with chickens in a roomy environment is they like to beat each other up. I met a man that made a fortune making plastic chicken coop window covers that filtered the light so the chickens could not see red. If a chickens see blood on another chicken, they'll peck it to death.
That's why they just cut their beaks off. It's fairly common practice. Like "stunning" cattle with stun guns or other assinine ways of killing them for food. The bottom line is the bottom line. Most businesses could care less if it's "nice", they just want to save a few pennies here and there. That's why shit like mad cow shows up. Because they want to safe a few bucks on feed, so they feed cows their intestines and shit mixed in their food. Then they wonder why Bad Things(TM) like mad cow happen to hit their animals.

People are just stupid. Shrug.

Quzah.


dave  Wednesday Jun 25 06:29 AM

They don't actually cut their beaks off. Debeaking is a myth.



russotto  Wednesday Jun 25 11:24 AM

Usually cattle are killed with a captive bolt mechanism. "Stun guns" are used for milking bulls, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, cattle are very tasty (especially a nice porterhouse), chickens are less tasty but still good if prepared correctly, and I'm not losing any sleep over eating either one.



bmgb  Wednesday Jun 25 02:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dave
They don't actually cut their beaks off. Debeaking is a myth.
How come if I click on Quzah's search link, the second thing I get is a <B>video</B> of a debeaking? The other searches I've done show nothing but clear cut evidence that debeaking exists somewhere... Furthermore, I do a search on "debeaking myth" and don't find anyone else saying that debeaking is a myth.

Hmmm.


dave  Wednesday Jun 25 02:16 PM

The video is only true if you believe it to be.

I present to you further evidence of this phenomenon:

http://www.cellar.org/showthread.php...6520#post46520

(Read from that post to the end of the thread.)



Yharr  Wednesday Jun 25 03:41 PM

We should teach our children, from a very early age to begin chasing down and killing chickens with their bare hands. Mom will gladly prepare it for the child once its dead, but the children need to understand where the food comes from.

Anyone wanna go cow huntin?



bmgb  Wednesday Jun 25 07:32 PM

Oh, I see you were just trying to get back at Quzah for not believing you have ten fingers. I read that thread before, but I didn't want to get into it.

I must say I still don't believe debeaking is a myth. But, for what it's worth, I believe you have ten fingers.



Quote:
Originally posted by dave
The video is only true if you believe it to be.



xoxoxoBruce  Wednesday Jun 25 10:03 PM

I raised cattle, pigs, sheep, chickens, turkeys, rabbits and horses.
Always took care of them. Cleaned, primped, showed, fed and cleaned up after them, every day. Always treated them like family. They were very nice. Nicer than people. Then I ate them, except the horses.



bjlhct  Thursday Jun 26 01:27 AM

I don't think I could eat horse normally.

Chickens are stupid. Dumber than cows. And there were all the things the native americans said about the stupidity of the settler's livestock... They not only have to be debeaked, but de-stacked too. Yes, chickens will stack on top each other until the bottom ones die. I don't really feel bad about something as stupid as a chicken dying.



wolf  Thursday Jun 26 01:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bjlhct
I don't really feel bad about something as stupid as a chicken dying.
I especially don't when they are covered in a batter composed of secret ingredients and deep fried.


quzah  Thursday Jun 26 04:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bjlhct
I don't think I could eat horse normally.

Chickens are stupid. Dumber than cows. And there were all the things the native americans said about the stupidity of the settler's livestock... They not only have to be debeaked, but de-stacked too. Yes, chickens will stack on top each other until the bottom ones die. I don't really feel bad about something as stupid as a chicken dying.
Good for you. Honestly, I don't feel bad when I hear about people dying from Mad Cow, Salmonella, Botulism, either. But then, to each his own I always say.

Quzah.


Undertoad  Thursday Jun 26 08:46 AM

More people still die from not eating at all than die from those things...



dave  Thursday Jun 26 09:00 AM

Says you. Starvation is a myth.



xoxoxoBruce  Thursday Jun 26 04:43 PM

Quote:
Good for you. Honestly, I don't feel bad when I hear about people dying from Mad Cow, Salmonella, Botulism, either.
Good for you! You have no reason to feel bad about them dying...as long as you're eating them.


bmgb  Thursday Jun 26 05:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bjlhct
I don't really feel bad about something as stupid as a chicken dying.
Would you feel bad about a severely retarded human being dying? I guess if the person was really tasty you wouldn't care.


wolf  Friday Jun 27 01:13 AM

You've clearly not spent that much time around the severely retarded.

Wasn't it the head of PETA who said something along the lines of "If I was on a sinking ship and had the choice of saving a smart dog or a retarded baby, I'd save the dog?"



quzah  Friday Jun 27 02:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wolf
You've clearly not spent that much time around the severely retarded.

Wasn't it the head of PETA who said something along the lines of "If I was on a sinking ship and had the choice of saving a smart dog or a retarded baby, I'd save the dog?"
Well, consider this thought: People who are for "assisted suicide" feel that they should have the right to kill themselves when their "quality of life" is below a given point, the point being one that they decide upon.

Consider people who are on life support. The same applies here. Peole make the decision for them because they are unable to decide for themselves, if their "quality of life" is below a given point, where it is better to "let them die".

Given the above, is it reasonable to assume that there is a point at which the "quality of life" for a, as you put it, "retarded person" would be better off left to die?

You have to weigh the severity of the situation. That's what they all do I suppose. I imagine everyone has a point some where that if the QOL is "too low", they would be compelled to think that "Being-X" is better off dead.

Before you say it's not true, let me prove it to you. Every day you decide which has more value: You going hungry, or you killing something, directly or indirectly to eat, assuming you aren't a strict vegan or fruitatarian. Thus, you have made a decision that Being-X is better off dead than alive.

Taken with the above context, is it inconceivable that such a situation would arise, that you'd save a dog over a "retarded person"?

No? How about your favourite dog over a near vegitable state "retarded person" who is a total stranger?

After all, some people say their pets are like children.

Oh, I guess I'm obliged to comment on the PETA picture above for some bizarre reason. Here you go: Wow. Impressive. It amuses me to no end to watch all the "meat eaters" go to extremes to "prove" that they have some right to eat whatever they feel like, or that they're vastly superior to all other life forms. Somehow this picture fails to prove the latter, and for the former, I could care less.

Quzah.


quzah  Friday Jun 27 02:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Good for you! You have no reason to feel bad about them dying...as long as you're eating them.
Do you even think about what you type? This makes absolutely no sense in any context.

Quzah.


bmgb  Friday Jun 27 02:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wolf
You've clearly not spent that much time around the severely retarded.
I've worked with people who have various disabilities (mild to severe) for years, but that is beside the point.

I was just trying to say that "Because it's (he/she/they) stupid," is no justification for killing.

Also, I value human life above other animals. There is no justification of it other than I'm biased, because I am human.


xoxoxoBruce  Friday Jun 27 04:48 AM

Quote:
Do you even think about what you type? This makes absolutely no sense in any context.
I'm not surprised you don't get it. That seems to be a trait you have.:p


russotto  Friday Jun 27 12:14 PM

Botulism is most often associated with green beans. Salmonella can also be vegetable-borne.

As for Mad Cow, I stay away from offal. Steak doesn't contain brain.



xoxoxoBruce  Saturday Jun 28 04:50 PM

what's worse: humanely killing one domesticated cow to get 300 pounds of meat, or brutally murdering thousands of innocent, wild insects for one stinking tomato?



Elspode  Saturday Jun 28 06:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
what's worse: humanely killing one domesticated cow to get 300 pounds of meat, or brutally murdering thousands of innocent, wild insects for one stinking tomato?
No, no, no...you don't *kill* them...you simply grow your food in a wholesome and biologically safe organic manner which discourages the insects from eating your tomatoes in the first place.

I'm all for organic tomatoes, especially with bacon and lettuce and mayonnaise on some nicely toasted wheat bread. Lots of bacon.


bmgb  Saturday Jun 28 06:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
what's worse: humanely killing one domesticated cow to get 300 pounds of meat, or brutally murdering thousands of innocent, wild insects for one stinking tomato?
Don't forget you have to feed the cow... 2500 pounds of grain to raise a cow for slaughter. How many insects do we have to murder just to produce this grain, to feed an animal... to produce "food" that really isn't that useful to humans (albeit tasty to many)?


bmgb  Saturday Jun 28 06:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by quzah

Good for you. Honestly, I don't feel bad when I hear about people dying from Mad Cow, Salmonella, Botulism, either. But then, to each his own I always say.

Quzah.
If only life was fair. I lived in Washington State during the infamous Jack-In-the-Box E. Coli outbreak of 1993. Several children died, including one child who according to the news, had "never eaten a hamburger." The child had caught the illness from a playmate who had eaten a tainted hamburger. (I have been a vegetarian since I was 12. But I remember wondering if somehow I could come down with the illness when it was in the news).

A dear friend of my mother's in SE MN died of Creutzfeld-Jakob (Mad Cow). We were never really sure how he got it. Maybe he ate British beef once or contracted it some other way. He was not vegetarian. But I don't think he deserved to die.


xoxoxoBruce  Saturday Jun 28 10:53 PM

Quote:
We were never really sure how he got it.
I heard a piece on NPR last year about they're trying to get permission to autopsy more people that die of Alzheimers from the kin. The preliminary results showed that almost 15% really had Mad Cow. It caught my interest because my Dad died from Alzheimers a few months earlier but I was in traffic in NY state with nothing to write on/with. By the time I got to MA, I couldn't remember the details. I must have it too.


Undertoad  Saturday Jun 28 11:05 PM

I'm sure we would have heard more about it if that suggestion came to anything.



juju  Sunday Jun 29 12:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bmgb
Don't forget you have to feed the cow... 2500 pounds of grain to raise a cow for slaughter. How many insects do we have to murder just to produce this grain, to feed an animal... to produce "food" that really isn't that useful to humans (albeit tasty to many)?
And what about all that poor grain? What, animals have rights, but plants don't? That's pretty freaking prejudiced if you ask me. Yeah, those vegetarians really "care".


bmgb  Sunday Jun 29 12:25 AM

Plant Killer!!

Quote:
Originally posted by juju

And what about all that poor grain? What, animals have rights, but plants don't? That's pretty freaking prejudiced if you ask me. Yeah, those vegetarians really "care".
The Dictators do a song called, "Plant Killer," about people like me. My "friend" likes to point at me and sing along with it too. But the truth is everybody eats plants (I don't care what kind of hardcore carnivore you are). Humans NEED to eat plants to survive. I'm sure of this. Meat is unnecessary, and it is a luxury for the minority of the planet's human inhabitants.

You miss the point of my post entirely. I do my part for all that "poor grain" by not contributing to the waste of it on livestock. Ultimately, I consume a lot less of that grain than you do.

Whether animals have rights is another debate all together (I mean, an animal doesn't understand the concept of "rights" because that's a human concept.)


Undertoad  Sunday Jun 29 01:08 AM

Those four pointy teeth we have say we're omnivores by design, built to be able to rip and rend flesh. Being able to live well without using meat as a protein source is the true luxury, a testament to our adaptability as a species.



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Jun 29 02:27 AM

I think having a meat bag to predigest all that icky grain is a true luxury. HEY COW! Peel me a grape.



bmgb  Sunday Jun 29 02:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
I think having a meat bag to predigest all that icky grain is a true luxury. HEY COW! Peel me a grape.
Mmmm, meat bag... :p


bmgb  Sunday Jun 29 02:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
Those four pointy teeth we have say we're omnivores by design, built to be able to rip and rend flesh. Being able to live well without using meat as a protein source is the true luxury, a testament to our adaptability as a species.
Well, that's arguable... barely. The human body may be equipped to eat insects and possibly small fowl, but not much more than that.

As far as "adapting as a species," I think the most adapting we've done is migrate to colder climates and learn how to kill and cook species that are BIGGER than us, simply out of necessity. The human species survived and grew bigger and stronger because of it. That's adaptability.


modernhamlet  Sunday Jun 29 07:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bmgb


Well, that's arguable... barely. The human body may be equipped to eat insects and possibly small fowl, but not much more than that.
Huh? While I agree that we may have gone overboard with the meat eating nowadays, due to the fact that we have no further external competition, no predators, no real threats as a species... make no mistake. We came from omnivores and we've always been omnivores.

<img src="http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/media/corel/chimp.jpg">

<img src="http://www.admin.northpark.edu/dkoeller/Classes/Images/Hunting.GIF">

$0.02 added.


bmgb  Sunday Jun 29 10:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by modernhamlet


Huh? While I agree that we may have gone overboard with the meat eating nowadays, due to the fact that we have no further external competition, no predators, no real threats as a species... make no mistake. We came from omnivores and we've always been omnivores.

Chimp looks happy. Must've just had a banana. :p

Actually, I haven't done much reading on it, but I think what I read was that chimps do hunt (although I don't know how), and that meat (mostly other species of monkeys) makes up 3% of their diet. And I think chimps are the only species of the great apes to eat meat on a regular basis, but I'm not sure.

The second picture is a good illustration of what I said in my last post... a lot changed when humans picked up bows and arrows.


russotto  Monday Jun 30 10:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bmgb
How many insects do we have to murder just to produce this grain, to feed an animal... to produce "food" that really isn't that useful to humans (albeit tasty to many)?
Nonsense. Cow is quite useful to humans, it's packed with nutrients. Unlike, say, celery, which is largely indigestible fiber.


bmgb  Monday Jun 30 01:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by russotto


Nonsense. Cow is quite useful to humans, it's packed with nutrients. Unlike, say, celery, which is largely indigestible fiber.
Yeah, there is no defense for celery.


juju  Monday Jun 30 01:50 PM

Gorillas eat nothing but leaves all day. If you want to be like them, go ahead. They're lethargic and lay around all day because they don't have any energy. They also eat their own poop, so as to give the leaves a second round through their digestive system.

If we all become vegetarians, we may well eat our own poop in 100,000 years. Think about it.



Undertoad  Monday Jun 30 01:54 PM

I'd like to apply that to other arguments. "Issuing unconstitutional Executive Orders will eventually lead to us all eating our own poop!"



wolf  Monday Jun 30 02:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bmgb


Yeah, there is no defense for celery.
Rushing to the side of the celery, wolf springs forth and shouts:

It holds the peanut butter or cream cheese pretty well .. doesn't slop off the sides or nothin'.

And it's a really good transport device to the mouth for the bleu cheese that comes with the hot wings.

You stop dissin' the celery!!


xoxoxoBruce  Monday Jun 30 04:56 PM

Quote:
If we all become vegetarians, we may well eat our own poop in 100,000 years.
Naw, solient(sp) green.

Celery is a untensil that doesn't have to be washed. Something to be said for that.


bmgb  Monday Jun 30 07:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wolf


You stop dissin' the celery!!
I'm sorry. That was uncalled for.

It's good in soup too.


Elspode  Tuesday Jul 1 01:04 AM

I'm going to learn this song one day, because it is so fucking funny...I would, in fact, be happy to post it in my webspace and send you guys the link if you'd like to hear it.


"Carrot Juice is Murder" by The Arrogant Worms

listen up brothers and sisters come hear my desperate tale
i speak of our friends of nature trapped in the dirt like a jail
vegetables live in oppression, served on our tables each night
this killing of veggies is madness, i say we take up the fight
salads are only for murderers, coleslaw's a fascist regime
don't think that they don't have feelings, just cause a radish can't scream

Chorus:
i've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream)
watching their skins being peeled (having their insides revealed)
grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories)
how do you think that feels (that it hurts really bad)
Carrot juice constitutes murder (and that's a real crime)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves (let my vegetables go)
it's time to stop all this gardening (it's dirty as hell)
let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade is a spade)

I saw a man eating celery, so i beat him black and blue
if he ever touches a sprout again, i'll bite him clean in two
i'm a political prisonner, trapped in a windowless cage
cause i stopped the slaughter of turnips by killing five men in a rage
i told the judge when he sentenced me "this is my finest hour"
i'd kill those farmers again just to save one more cauliflower

Chorus

how low as people do we dare to stoop,
making young broccolis bleed in the soup
untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes
let potted plants free, don't mash that potato
oh spare the spud! Eat a cow instead!

I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream)
watching their skins being peeled (fates in the stir-fry are sealed)
grated and steamed with no mercy (you fat gourmet slob)
how do you think that feels (leave them out in the field)
Carrot juice constitutes murder (V8's genocide)
greenhouses prisons for slaves (yes, your composts are graves)
it's time to stop all this gardening (take up macrame)
let's call a spade a spade
(is a spade, is a spade, is a spade, is a spade......)

Power to the peas! Give peas a chance!
all we are saying, is give peas a chance



Elspode  Tuesday Jul 1 01:34 AM

OK, there was no particular hew and cry to hear this, but here it is anyway...

http://www.lunalushede.org/songs/Arr... Is Murder.mp3



quzah  Tuesday Jul 1 02:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
If we all become vegetarians, we may well eat our own poop in 100,000 years. Think about it.
It must be hard to walk with your ass on backwards.

So, the theory here is that eating veggies makes you stupid and lazy, right? Ok, so about those meat-only animals, they all should be incredibly smart right? No? You mean they eat shit too? Gee, so much for your stunning revelation.

To take this a step further, since humans are considered omnivores, carnivores then should be vastly superior intellectually. Unfortunately for your analogy, that just doesn't quite fit.

For example, wolves, not being unlike your common household dog, also tend to eat shit. Guess what? They're considered carnivores.

Just when you think you've heard every stupid analogy possible, someone comes up with a new one. People never cease to amaze me.

Quzah.


russotto  Tuesday Jul 1 10:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by quzah

Just when you think you've heard every stupid analogy possible, someone comes up with a new one. People never cease to amaze me.
Apparently vegetarianism causes you to lose your sense of humor.


juju  Tuesday Jul 1 02:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by quzah
So, the theory here is that eating veggies makes you stupid and lazy, right? Ok, so about those meat-only animals, they all should be incredibly smart right? No? You mean they eat shit too? Gee, so much for your stunning revelation.
I never said anything about stupid and lazy, I said gorillas don't have very much energy because of the food they eat. Of course, that's because they <i>only</i> eat leaves. They eat their feces because the leaves are so hard to digest that they have to eat it several times to finish getting all the nutrients out of it.

Chimpanzees eat fruit and bugs (and sometimes hunt monkeys), and they're really hyper. So, I suppose a more varied vegetarian diet would be okay, but I was stretching the point for humor's sake.

Quote:
Originally posted by quzah
For example, wolves, not being unlike your common household dog, also tend to eat shit. Guess what? They're considered carnivores.
Yeah, but what you don't say is that they only eat it if food is in short supply. That's what I'm saying. Animals who can't get sufficient nutrients from their normal diet find other ways to supplement it. How about just having a decent diet in the first place?


Leus  Tuesday Jul 1 03:36 PM

A filet mignon looks pretty smart to me. But, alas, if you add à la crème de champignon flambé au cognac it looks even smarter.



bmgb  Tuesday Jul 1 06:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by russotto


Apparently vegetarianism causes you to lose your sense of humor.
<scowl>
That's not funny.
</scowl>


Uryoces  Tuesday Jul 1 06:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bmgb


Yeah, there is no defense for celery.
Blasphemy! It's eaten between hot wings to ease the burn. The Wingodome rules!


xoxoxoBruce  Wednesday Jul 2 01:12 AM

Quote:
That's not funny.
Would you STEAK your reputation on that?


quzah  Wednesday Jul 2 02:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
Yeah, but what you don't say is that they only eat it if food is in short supply. That's what I'm saying. Animals who can't get sufficient nutrients from their normal diet find other ways to supplement it. How about just having a decent diet in the first place?
You've never had a dog have you? How exactly does this differ from your shit eating monkies you were talking about? Ah, that's right, there is no difference. So the original point was?

Quzah.


juju  Wednesday Jul 2 11:00 AM

Of course there's a difference. Scientists have no idea why dogs do it, but they do know why wolves and gorillas do it. You don't think it can be done for different reasons?



quzah  Thursday Jul 3 01:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
Of course there's a difference. Scientists have no idea why dogs do it, but they do know why wolves and gorillas do it. You don't think it can be done for different reasons?
So you're saying that the only time monkies or wolves eat shit is because they're starving? This being the case, I don't really see how this makes them stupid, since they're doing it out of survival. That being said, I believe humans behave in similar fashion. For example, making your own water. The latter case is less extreme, but there are situations not unsimilar to eating shit, for example eating dirt. While Google isn't "the source of all undeniable proof", I have watched more than one show on PBS where in Africa, people eat dirt because they have nothing else to eat. I believe the explanation given was that they were just trying to get something into their stomache to ease the hunger.

So again, how does this make said plant eater stupid, when, according to you, they eat shit to survive?

Quzah.


juju  Thursday Jul 3 03:01 AM

Again, I never said anything about stupidity. Intelligence doesn't figure into my argument at all

I'm not sure what your point is with the links. Yes, people do crazy shit when they can't get proper nutrition. That's my entire point.

Also, gorillas are apes, not monkeys.



xoxoxoBruce  Thursday Jul 3 11:11 AM

I eat meat because I want to, but hey this is America and I'll defend to the death your right to eat shit.



bmgb  Friday Jul 4 05:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju

I'm not sure what your point is with the links. Yes, people do crazy shit when they can't get proper nutrition. That's my entire point.
Well, I'm not sure what Juju and Quzah are arguing about, but is interesting. If Juju is trying to make a point about human nutrition, I'm sorry to say there is no nutrient in meat that humans need. Yes, it has protein, but protein deficiency is extremely rare in humans, and really only happens to someone when they are not getting enough calories (i.e. they have to be starving).

The only health problem that vegetarians tend to have, I believe is lethargy and depression that has been linked to a high carb/low fat diet (which is usually vegetarian, but not always). It has to do with excess carbs, not a lack of anything. But not all vegetarians eat this way. I myself eat a fairly high protein diet (rice and beans, fajitas from Chipotle etc), though I'm not sure it's good for me. (Excess protein is hard on the body, especially the kidneys).

So really, humans can get all the nutrients they need from plant foods, and I can't believe I have to say this, but I don't think any of us will be eating our own poo any time soon.



xoxoxoBruce  Friday Jul 4 07:02 PM

Quote:
humans can get all the nutrients they need from plant foods,
The key word of that statement was "need", if I understand you. But food in more than need. For humans it's about family, social interaction and separates us from the critters.
Look at the sales of cook books, kitchen gagets, spices and tablecloths to name a very few. Much of our lives revolve around food and the social interaction. Having the boss over for dinner or taking a client out to lunch and the whole family for holiday meals are important. Too important for leaves and poo.


bmgb  Friday Jul 4 07:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
the whole family for holiday meals are important. Too important for leaves and poo.
Uh, well I don't know about you, but I'm having my family over this weekend, and we are going to have a fajita cookout and then we are going to go out for Kurdish food the next day. Thanks for your concern though.


[edit]
your not "you'.
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