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   Undertoad  Wednesday Aug 20 01:56 PM

8/20/2003: Palestinian militant



This is Raed Abdel-Hamid Mask, 29, an Islamic cleric/preacher/imam at home in Palestine with his 3-year-old daughter and 2-year-old son. (See how desperate and hopeless he looks as a result of the occupation?)



Same dude. Typically, before a bombing, they film a video in which they explain what they're going to do. He holds a Koran in his right hand.



Here he is shown again -- you can't really see him, but parts of his flesh are embedded along with shrapnel in the victim, who just by chance is also 3 years old.



goethean  Wednesday Aug 20 03:14 PM

Does anyone know of a non-political website that posts interesting images on a daily basis?



Undertoad  Wednesday Aug 20 03:42 PM

They told me if I was true to my own voice it would be more interesting.



OnyxCougar  Wednesday Aug 20 04:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by goethean
Does anyone know of a non-political website that posts interesting images on a daily basis?




Elspode  Wednesday Aug 20 04:06 PM

I guess www.aljazeera.com is out, huh?



goethean  Wednesday Aug 20 04:19 PM

No, al-jazeera should be fine. Because since I object to a website obsessed with painting Palestinians as irrational, I must be a pinko commie idiotarian Gore supporter.

Right?



Undertoad  Wednesday Aug 20 04:38 PM

No?

We often are completely different and have different points of view, but we can discuss those things AND other things without descending into any kind of disrespect. I hope that's part of the point of the Cellar. Aside from me posting the first message in each IotD thread, your posts are as important and valid as mine, s'ok?



Beletseri  Wednesday Aug 20 04:49 PM

How did Undertoad's post paint anyone as irrational? I am asking seriously. You may have taken it as irrational and maybe to some of us it is an irrational act but in the history of war, killing children isn't such a new thing at all. In fact in a war over land, genocide is sort of the point.



one earth  Wednesday Aug 20 04:56 PM

They are not irrational. They are victims of a profoundly ugly deception that places no value on human life, only on personal gain. This story is as old as Cain and Abel, and will probably take even longer to fully resolve.



ndetroit  Wednesday Aug 20 05:05 PM

IMO this site is as politcal or nonpolitical as you'd like to make it, goethean ...

if you don't like the sentiments expressed... then express your own, and argue intelligently for them...

I'm certain you'll find more than a few ppl willing to debate you.. But I'm sure that you'll find more than a few ppl willing to agree with your views..

That's kind of the point of the IoTD in some ways I guess.... You've got to have some thought-provoking stuff that causes a little bit of strife every now and then.... It can't all be naked locals lying down for art, or piggies jumping into swimming pools...

I don't really post that often, but I read every comment on every topic every day... Sometimes the things that people say piss me right off... Sometimes they make me laugh out loud... Sometimes both, I guess..


If you've got a problem with the liberal/conservative slant of the content of the site, by all means, post a counter-opinion..

... But don't request a censoring of the original content.



Elspode  Wednesday Aug 20 05:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by goethean
No, al-jazeera should be fine. Because since I object to a website obsessed with painting Palestinians as irrational, I must be a pinko commie idiotarian Gore supporter.
Just out of curiosity...is suicide bombing and the associated killing of civilians rational? I read UT's post as painting a single Palestinian as being irrational, not an entire nation.

Now, if you've got a convincing argument for the rationality of suicide/murder, I'd love to hear it.

And, before anyone goes there, I don't consider the US's warlike attitudes to necessarily be entirely rational, either.


Leus  Wednesday Aug 20 05:17 PM

Quote:
(See how desperate and hopeless he looks as a result of the occupation?)
This is the only bit that bothered me. You can't judge the overall feelings of a person by looking at one picture. On the other hand, I don't understand how a father can commit such a despreciable act. The only explanation is "It's just the human nature", right?


goethean  Wednesday Aug 20 05:48 PM

Quote:
IMO this site is as politcal or nonpolitical as you'd like to make it, goethean ...
Please. Undertoad's post today is political and partisan from beginning to end.

Partisan, as in showing part of--one-half of--the conflict, deliberately looking away from the other half. Undertoad's posts do this consistently.

A comparable statement might be:

Look at the foolish and murderous Viet Cong killing the innocent American GI!

Quote:
...But don't request a censoring of the original content.
I'm calling out clear bias that has plagued Undertoad's posts for as long as I've been here. I wish he would gain some empathy and lose some smugness. I don't consider that censorship.

Quote:
That's kind of the point of the IoTD in some ways I guess.... You've got to have some thought-provoking stuff that causes a little bit of strife every now and then....
But you know, it seems like everytime Undertoad wants to provoke us, it is from a pro-war, pro-Bush, position. There have been a multitude of posts on the horribleness of Intifada. How many have been about napalmed Afghani or Iraqi civilians? An alien reading Undertoad's posts would get the impression that Palestinians are the only ones killing anyone in the world.


ndetroit  Wednesday Aug 20 05:50 PM

decent newsweek piece on the rationale of suicide bombing, from this weeks edition:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/953555.asp

the argument is basically that suicide bombers are not "crazy" or "religiously brainwashed" but are more a product of specific political conditions..

I guess that's obvious.. maybe.


I thought the part about what the turkish govt did about the kurds was interesting...



Elspode  Wednesday Aug 20 05:59 PM

Goethean said: "But you know, it seems like everytime Undertoad wants to provoke us, it is from a pro-war, pro-Bush, position. There have been a multitude of posts on the horribleness of Intifada. How many have been about napalmed Afghani or Iraqi civilians? An alien reading Undertoad's posts would get the impression that Palestinians are the only ones killing anyone in the world."


I would be more than interested in seeing the other side of the story, and I'm pretty sure many others here would be as well. I do seem to recall the posting of pics sometime back of the protester who got squished by the Israeli bulldozer, and there was a great deal of back and forth discussion from both sides of the issue, if memory serves. I don't think it would be any different if, say, you, Goethean, posted pictures and points of view which did not ding the Palenstinians.



goethean  Wednesday Aug 20 06:05 PM

Thank you (sincerely) for the thoughtful Newsweek article.

From it:

Quote:
The Turkish government made a massive investment (totaling well over $32 billion) in the Kurdish southeast. On a per capita basis, it has invested more in the Kurdish region than in any other part of Turkey.
Sharon's going to be all over that, isn't he?


Undertoad  Wednesday Aug 20 06:20 PM

I don't try to provoke anyone. I just post the things that I find interesting, that's all.

I couldn't provoke you all if I tried. It routinely amazes me which items spark a lot of posts. It doesn't follow much rhyme or reason. And one could provoke from either direction IN either direction too -- I could post these things with the expectation of getting a flurry of "yeah, you're right!" posts.

BUT I NEVER DO, and any notion of smugness you're getting is solely your own. It's really difficult for me to even address that when I so often go out of my way to tell people I may be wrong, that I expect to be disagreed with, etc. etc.

It's right in the "It's not about me" paragraph in the "What's the Cellar?" link at the bottom of every single page every Cellar user reads. It says: ...you can hate me, it doesn't matter. (I will only respect you more for it.) My goal as a virtual community operator is to do right by the community itself. Disagree with me if you like; I'm often wrong and need to be taught a lesson. Disagreement and honesty are critical to a community's health.

So Cellar IotD biased: compared to "big media", hell yes. Absolutely. One guy picks all the first images and that guy is utterly biased out of his skull. Cellar in general biased: enh, it's all over the place. It flies one way for a while, then it flies another.

Tell you what though: I *far* prefer it when it flies away from me. I like having a diverse, interesting community with all types on board and happy to stick their two cents in for their point of view.

So today IotD flew away from you. Now here's the big question: can you take it for a day? Or is it upsetting to you to know that there is someone who disagree with your point of view, so strongly that he'll make it a priority?

Does our disagreement on this make my other images less cool to you? I still want to share them with you, and hope you'll find them as cool as I do.

Finally, I voted for Gore in 2000, and Bush is not currently my first choice in 2004.



xoxoxoBruce  Wednesday Aug 20 07:15 PM

Thanks, UT. They are an amazing group of pictures. Your remarks are your opinion of them. That is the right of ANYONE posting in the Cellar. OK this thread is your's but there is plenty of places to post, even pictures. Anyone that doesn't like your choice of IotD can bookmark the Cellar and skip them. Whada Country.



quzah  Wednesday Aug 20 09:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by goethean
Please. Undertoad's post today is political and partisan from beginning to end.
I guess we each see what we want to see. Something similar to 'selective memory'. We only remember what we want to remember.

When I see the three pictures in succession I get:

1) Here is a father with his children, all smiling.
2) Here is the same man with a rifle and a source of religious belief. (It could just as easily have been the Bible, the Koran, the Kama Sutra for all I care.)
3) Here is the same man having suffered a horrible tragedy because of his actions.

And before you get all holier than thou on me, it is because of his actions. If he really cared more about his family than where he was living, or what he was believing, he would have removed them from the situation.

People fled insert any given country: Britan, and came to America to start a new country; Cuba and came to America; fled Russia; fled Vietnam; fled from one side of Germany to the other, the list is endless.

That picture to me could have just as easily been an Isralie being shredded by a suicide bomber. That picture could have been... hell any place of warfare. It could have been the Vietnamese, as you suggest. It could have been anyone.

Look at the pictures themselves, and don't look at the individual. Look at the concept, the story the picture implies. You can read that story without having any captions at all. Put any one you want as the subject of that story, and the story turns out the same.

The individual is irrelevant. The story is retold countless times throughout history. This truely is the never ending story.

Quzah.


warch  Wednesday Aug 20 09:47 PM

How utterly boring this would be if UT didnt push some buttons and make me think. And everythingis political.

This IOD is great. A comic strip of WTF is going on. Did a Palestinian man hugs his kids, wave the Koran, and then kill himself inorder to kill other people's kids. Yes. And the gripping rationale that goes into that act is what stops peace. Palestinians refuse peace. No compromise is just. So, how can suicide bombing be reframed as irrational to Palestinians? As failure and waste?

I'm not ready to concede to dave's vision yet. I'm hoping for some inspiration.



juju  Wednesday Aug 20 09:58 PM

He's not "obsessed with painting Palestinians as irrational". He's obsessed with making you think by using the power of the visual medium, and with promoting discussion.



xoxoxoBruce  Wednesday Aug 20 10:06 PM

Syc, did you delete a post or am I going crazy?

What a straight line, eh.



elSicomoro  Wednesday Aug 20 10:12 PM

You're crazy.

So, let's say UT was being biased. And this matters...why?



Undertoad  Thursday Aug 21 12:52 AM

Come to think of it, the notion that this is a one-sided display of images is purely bias.

The first shot was given to the media by the Palestinians. That is the image that they want you to see, and I've included it.

The second shot was the video made by the man himself. He expected and wanted his image to be shown.

The third shot is what all terrorists want - maximum emotional output for their effort.

Today Abu Mazen said that he would go after the people responsible for this, so the official word of the Palestinian government is that they too are against this sort of thing.

So the other side I'm not showing is not the Palestinians, but the Palestinian terrorists.



Nothing But Net  Thursday Aug 21 02:12 AM

Another take...

<a href="http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=NCOTMA2RVZMKWCRBAEKSFEY?type=topNews&storyID=3312353">Israeli forces 'raid' Palestinian towns of Jenin and Nablus, arrest two men.</a>

Sounds like a real fucking slow night on my side of town!



jaguar  Thursday Aug 21 02:49 AM

Quote:
I'm certain you'll find more than a few ppl willing to debate you..
Famous last words =)
There are certain political lines that emerge (it's not rocket science) after you're here for more than a few posts. While people will generally fall along these lines and thus the following debate often rather lacklustre occasionally there is some kind of trigger that ends up with people all over the place and then it can be really, really interesting.

There have been some fantastic discussions and debates over time and some depressingly infantile spats that have resulted in some great people (Xumagad comes to mind) leaving. Ut has as many biases as anyone else, he (generally) does a goodish job of keeping them under control in here but overall the aim is to generate discussion, cute animal pics (except on fridays) just plain aren't going to get the same quality of discussion as something as emotionally charged as suicide bombing.


Nothing But Net  Thursday Aug 21 03:26 AM

Actual quote, or not?

"We had to destroy the village in order to save it"

"Hearts and minds"

"The horror! The horror!"

"Let's blow up a bunch of innocent non-combatants! Infants included! That will sure bring the world around to our position!"

Should be a poll.



Undertoad  Thursday Aug 21 10:28 AM

The "other side"



The Hamas bus bombing was allegedly in return for Israel's targeting of previous Hamas guys. Therefore, this is the other side of the story: Israel blew up this smart white 4-door VW Golf containing the leader of Hamas, apparently the guy who ordered the bus bombing, and his two bodyguards.

If you prefer, consider this to be the other side for the next Hamas activity.

Moments later it was swarmed upon by literally hundreds of Palestinians who pulled the car's remnants apart with crowbars.



Beletseri  Thursday Aug 21 10:44 AM

pulled apart with crowbars....

Looking for talismans?



Undertoad  Thursday Aug 21 10:56 AM



No, body parts.



Undertoad  Thursday Aug 21 10:58 AM



And bodies.



russotto  Thursday Aug 21 11:00 AM

Re: 8/20/2003: Palestinian militant

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad

I own that shirt. Really.


Undertoad  Thursday Aug 21 11:01 AM



And then they jump on the car and shout slogans. Note please, I'm not editoriaizing here, this is just information.



dave  Thursday Aug 21 11:02 AM

I was thinking, it's a sharp lookin' shirt. It would be a shame if he blew that up as well.



Undertoad  Thursday Aug 21 11:07 AM

Same shirt in the video still, dude is lacking in wardrobe choices.



dave  Thursday Aug 21 11:35 AM

Dude <b>was</b> lacking in wardrobe choices.



Elspode  Thursday Aug 21 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad

And then they jump on the car and shout slogans. Note please, I'm not editoriaizing here, this is just information.
I'm assuming the slogans were not along the lines of "Don't be upset, these guys deserved it!", or "Hey, let's stop all this madness, there's been too much death and destruction!"?


juju  Thursday Aug 21 12:17 PM

Why do they want body parts?



goethean  Thursday Aug 21 12:21 PM

Because they are pure, unadulterated evil! Get with the program!



dave  Thursday Aug 21 12:37 PM

I don't think anyone's seriously said that here.



ndetroit  Thursday Aug 21 01:46 PM

Quote:
Why do they want body parts?
I was curious about that too..

Is a celebration thing? IE: These guys died martyrs, and they are in heaven now?

Or did they figure that if they got there in time they could save the guys maybe?

It always amazes me the quality of the photographs that seem to emerge of out these situations...

I mean... if the car was blown up, and then moments later swarmed by a bunch of ppl, then there had to be some photographer who was RIGHT THERE to get to the shot (without ppl in it), and then stuck around to get the action shots (of the ppl with the crowbars).


Also, how did israel blow up the car? with a car bomb? or like.. a long range missile? How did they know they'd get the right car?

Did they just drive a tank down the street til they found the right VW that matched the description?

I wonder what's involved in the logistics of blowing up a car full of people. ... O.o


Senor Oso  Thursday Aug 21 01:54 PM

"Because they are pure, unadulterated evil! Get with the program!"

I really had no plans to say anything. I usually don't. But that's one of the most irritating things I've ever read on this board.

Look, I know you thought you were being sarcastic (or at least that will be your defense if anybody calls you on your shit.) But from reading the rest of the posts on this thread, I get the feeling that you really do think that anybody who disagrees with you on this is stupid and simplistic. It's a common attitude among people... well, let's see if I can make your sort of thinking work for me... among people who think that Israel is pure, unadulterated evil.



dave  Thursday Aug 21 02:03 PM

Israel uses missiles from helicopters, usually. They know which car it is because they have informants and an extremely good intelligence agency, Mossad.



Leus  Thursday Aug 21 02:27 PM

Hey, Señor Oso, tasteless humor is usual here. It's not always sarcasm.



Undertoad  Thursday Aug 21 02:43 PM

The AP says Dozens of Hamas supporters at the scene dunked their fists in blood and soot, raised them in the air and threatened revenge, chanting "God is great."

It appears to have become some sort of blood ritual.



xoxoxoBruce  Thursday Aug 21 03:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Senor Oso
[B I get the feeling that you really do think that anybody who disagrees with you on this is stupid and simplistic. [/b]
Being as I'm generally sarcastic I'd like to respond, at least for myself.
No, I don't think that people that disagree are stupid or simplistic.
I do however think they're wrong, misinformed, misguided, bias or whatever.
I don't think most people would take a position, they thought was wrong except to rattle cages.
If you feel my position is wrong, convince me.


Degrees  Thursday Aug 21 03:11 PM

Its a hard problem.

Everyone agrees that the problem of violence against their neighbors in Israel+Palestine is a big problem, and needs to stop.

On the one hand, I heard a great summary of the problem as a spin on a slogan from the first Bill Clinton election campaign:

"It's the Occupation, stupid."

On the other hand, I know people who support Israel for no other reason than this:

"Israel is the only governement by democracy in the Middle East."

People in the USA know that democracies are a good thing. And you see in Israel a real democracy - elections are held, and leaders are replaced (peaceably) as the electorate decides someone with a different view better represents what they want from their government.

Problem with Israel's democracy is that it is exclusive - Palestinians need not apply. Which brings us back to "It's the Occupation, stupid."

The suicide bombings will not stop until Israel chooses to treat its neighbors with respect.

The suicide bombings garner zero respect within Isreal for its neighbors.

"Be nice."
"O.k. - you go first."

Its a hard problem.

In the end, I think the message from the suicide bombers is supposed to be "Fear us." I think that message, as interpreted by Israel is "Exterminate us (bombers)."



goethean  Thursday Aug 21 03:12 PM

Quote:
But from reading the rest of the posts on this thread, I get the feeling that you really do think that anybody who disagrees with you on this is stupid and simplistic. It's a common attitude among people... well, let's see if I can make your sort of thinking work for me... among people who think that Israel is pure, unadulterated evil.
I actually don't think that Israel is evil at all, and that's what irks me the most about Undertoad's attitude toward Palestinians--that it pisses me off and makes me more partisan.

Normally my take on the crisis is that Israel is surprisingly tolerant compared to how other countries would act in a similar situation (China, Russia, the US...). (I now know that Turkey at least has dealt with their insurgents in a bettter way.)

But look at the <a href="http://cellar.org/iotdarch.php">archives</a>. There have been more posts about Palestinians (12 or so) than about anything else. Most of them accompanied by negative captions. That's not right. It's especially troubling to me considering my country supports the administration that has destroyed, and continues to destroy these people's way of life.

I do believe that the <a href="http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php">Little Green Football</a> interpretation of the conflict is "stupid and simplistic". You can add bigoted, small-minded, and reprehensible to that as well. LGF is basically a hate site. The extent to which your own approach resembles theirs can tell you what I think of your method.

I personally would be mortified to quote and use the research of a site like LGF. Apparently that's not true of you folks.

Undertoad:
Quote:
The AP says Dozens of Hamas supporters at the scene dunked their fists in blood and soot, raised them in the air and threatened revenge, chanting "God is great."

It appears to have become some sort of blood ritual.
I think you forgot to say: quote via <a href="http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=7898_Palestinian_Blood_Ritual">Little Green Footballs</a>.


juju  Thursday Aug 21 03:44 PM

It's an AP story. LGF just linked to it and quoted from it.


Quote:
But look at the archives. There have been more posts about Palestinians (12 or so) than about anything else. Most of them accompanied by negative captions. That's not right.
In what way is free speech not right?


dave  Thursday Aug 21 03:52 PM

To continue with juju's comment... if we had 12 posts about Charles Manson and what a shitbag he was for orchestrating the murders of Sharon Tate and her guests, all of them accompanied by negative captions, would that also be wrong?

See, I don't think anyone here condones the killing of innocent people. That goes for both sides. It's just that, for the most part, you don't have Israeli suicide attackers. You don't hear about Israelis getting on Palestinian buses and detonating themselves and 20 victims. There have been a few attacks here and there, but you could probably count them on one mangled hand.

What Israel does do is target militants. It might not be <b>right</b> (depending on the meaning of your word), but most people have a much easier time stomaching this than they do thinking about Gal Eisenmann, the five year old that got blown up a year ago. (One of the many, I might add.)

What Undertoad is saying, and what I agree with, is that Palestinian militants that support and/or carry out attacks on innocent Israeli citizens are shitbags. The Israelis that bombed a Palestinian school a year or two ago (causing no casualties, thankfully) are shitbags as well. The bulldozer driver that ran over Rachel Corrie is, in my opinion, a shitbag. You show me an Israeli that has intentionally killed an innocent Palestinian and I'll show you - surprise - a shitbag. It's just that they're a lot harder to come across than Palestinian extremists.

It's not that there's some type of bias against innocent people. There's a bias against assholes that think they need to kill innocent civilians to get their way.



Undertoad  Thursday Aug 21 04:12 PM

Well, Goat-boy, here are your choices at this point:

1. You could continue to hang out here, and once a month you have to deal with the expression of a bunch of ideas that you find foul and reprehensible. - OR -

2. You could find a website where everyone agrees with you and everything ever posted passes a presupposed test of acceptability. - OR -

3. You could start your own website, publish your own views, enjoy the counter-argument, and just learn to accept the occasional annoying asshole who wants to assume all sorts of crap about you and your thought process, and wants to freely post this to your site amongst the things you've written.

I recommend #1 or #3, because #2 stunts your growth.



goethean  Thursday Aug 21 04:12 PM

Quote:
In what way is free speech not right?
Free speech, on a societal level, is an important right.

Within that there are many forms of free speech--that should be allowed by society--that are unethical.

Quote:
Niggers are lazy, crack-smoking, good for nothing monkeys
The above statement is both an example of free speech, and an unethical thing to say (additionally, it is wrong, but that's neither here nor there.)


dave  Thursday Aug 21 04:16 PM

I was thinking, perhaps goethean should get a user-hosted forum and post his own images. That way, we'd have two IotD-like thingies.

I could do one too, 'cause I come across all sorts of stuff. But it's always things that make me smile and stuff 'cause I'm a sentimental retard when it comes to humanity.

Or, in keeping with a tragedy motif, we could do pictures of people who died in this but shouldn't have. Those are pretty easy to find.



goethean  Thursday Aug 21 04:17 PM

Goat boy?

Type Goethe in Google if you're unfamiliar with the origin of my username.

Quote:
...Palestinian militants that support and/or carry out attacks on innocent Israeli citizens are shitbags. The Israelis that bombed a Palestinian school a year or two ago (causing no casualties, thankfully) are shitbags as well. The bulldozer driver that ran over Rachel Corrie is, in my opinion, a shitbag. You show me an Israeli that has intentionally killed an innocent Palestinian and I'll show you - surprise - a shitbag. It's just that they're a lot harder to come across than Palestinian extremists.
Odd, though, that the moderator of this site only appears to object to Palestinian violence.


goethean  Thursday Aug 21 04:21 PM

Quote:
I recommend #1 or #3, because #2 stunts your growth.
And because #4, the moderator gaining some degree of balance, is out of the question?


juju  Thursday Aug 21 04:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by goethean
<blockquote><i>Niggers are lazy, crack-smoking, good for nothing monkeys</blockquote></i>The above statement is both an example of free speech, and an unethical thing to say.
I don't agree that it is unethical to say that. The ideas behind them are unethical, but it is not immoral to speak your mind.

Most people, in response to the above comment, would attempt to reason with the person and attempt to present them with their own views. That's what you should be doing, not trying to silence the opposition.

At any rate, this isn't a news site. It's mainly a discussion site. So he's not supposed to have objectivity.


goethean  Thursday Aug 21 04:39 PM

Quote:
To continue with juju's comment... if we had 12 posts about Charles Manson and what a shitbag he was for orchestrating the murders of Sharon Tate and her guests, all of them accompanied by negative captions, would that also be wrong?
Charles Manson was a particular person. The Palestinians are 3 million people. To generalize about an entire people based on the actions of a few is the essence of prejudice. UT's coverage of the Middle East conflict gives a profoundly wrong impression.

Reading UT's posts, one would assume that there have been many times as many Israeli deaths as Palestinian. Reality shows the opposite to be true.


dar512  Thursday Aug 21 04:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dave
Lots of stuff clipped...

It's not that there's some type of bias against innocent people. There's a bias against assholes that think they need to kill innocent civilians to get their way.
Dave, that was a succinct and well thought out post.


Undertoad  Thursday Aug 21 04:47 PM

No, goat-boy: you don't get to change my opinion just by crying and saying that I should "just because".

You have to actually refute it by providing, you know, helpful counter arguments and statements of fact and whatnot.

It's not good enough to claim that my statements are "hateful" or "biased". In order to convince me to change my posting habits, you have to convince me that I'm actually WRONG.

That's the bad news. The good news is that I'm a reasonable guy. I do change my point of view on the basis of what I learn. I'm happy to participate in discussions in which we ask questions of each other and state our various points of view. I'll be as honest as I possibly can be.

In fact, I've kinda set this entire system up for that purpose, and I've gone out of my way to make sure everyone's posts have equivalent weight (outside of their personal reputation).

You don't like what I have to say: convince me I'm wrong.



goethean  Thursday Aug 21 04:52 PM

Quote:
It's not good enough to claim that my statements are "hateful" or "biased". In order to convince me to change my posting habits, you have to convince me that I'm actually WRONG.
...and that's because there's lots of hateful and biased statements that are correct?


xoxoxoBruce  Thursday Aug 21 04:53 PM

Goethean, you musy be a palestinian. All you do is whine and attack.
If you weren't, you would start your own thread and post your own pictures.



blue58  Thursday Aug 21 04:55 PM

Rational

Saw this in the Onion once that I keep thinking of whenever I see pictures like this:

What do you think about the rash of recent suicide attacks against Israelis by Palestinian militants?

"Suicide bombing is a perfectly legitimate method to end the occupation of our homeland....no, wait a minute..that's fucking insane!"



Undertoad  Thursday Aug 21 05:00 PM

That's right, Goat-boy; a statement can appear to be hateful and biased and yet still be correct, and correctness is the only worthwhile basis on which we should judge statements.



warch  Thursday Aug 21 05:21 PM

So lets look at balance. Goethe-boy, help express the other bias. What are your sympathies?
Who wants to lay out rationale for this violent act? Can anyone say anything that will help me feel proud of or even sorry for Raed? I havent heard it yet.



Serk  Thursday Aug 21 05:51 PM

Coming into this as late as I did, don't know if anyone will read what I've got to say, but I actually took the opposite meaning from the original post of the pictures...
Not saying there's a 'political agenda' by UnderToad, but I was thinking the pictures were showing just how destitute the Israeli occupation had made the Palestinians, that their only hope, the only way they see that they can make their home a better place for their children, which they appear to care for, is by blowing themselves up...
Didn't know I was supposed to be thinking 'Glad those fine upstanding Israelis are executing the dumb Palestinians' when I saw the pics... I got the opposite message out of them...

Oh well...




...back to (semi) lurking...



goethean  Thursday Aug 21 05:56 PM

My view of the Palestinians is that they are not innocent either. In fact, I agree with with Thomas Friedman's assessment that they would have had a state 30 years ago if they had resisted non-violently rather than violently. I think that terrorism is one of the things that can happen after your people have been fucked over for a couple of generations. And, as everyone knows both the Israeli and the PLO admnistrations are to blame.

The view of people like Little Green Footballs seem kind of like: I don't care if your daddy has beat you every minute of your life up until now. If you hit him back, you're evil, and you're going down. Of course, they apply that principle only to their enemies.

What kills me is that Undertoad never responded to my criticism of Little Green Footballs. It's a site that he clearly relies on for his "facts"--which he sees as very different from opinion--(forgetting that the opinionated selection of the facts is the essence of subjectivity) as well as his pictures, and it's a hate site.

Again: Undertoad consistently paints the mideast crisis as if there is only one party at fault. There's not. And everytime you do it, I'm going to call you on it.



xoxoxoBruce  Thursday Aug 21 06:08 PM

He didn't have to. Juju did.


aside- Welcome Blue.



Undertoad  Thursday Aug 21 06:41 PM

LGF is not a hate site, I often mention them when I get things there, I didn't get ANYTHING for this post from there, and all this AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN misses the point that if you don't like my facts you have to

R E F U T E

them. Doesn't matter where they came from, doesn't matter who said them, doesn't matter what else they said, doesn't matter who talked about it in the comments section or why they said what they said. ALL THAT IS BULLSHIT.

Refute, with real information and real links, or go fuck yourself.



goethean  Thursday Aug 21 07:24 PM

I didn't object to the "facts" that you are so proud of---indeed, he holds a Qu'ran in his right hand. I pointed out, and do again, that your tone is sneering, your selection of images is one-sided, your source is racist, and your perspective is skewed.



ChrisD  Thursday Aug 21 08:25 PM

While I don't particularly "side" with one viewpoint or another in this tragic conflict, I do have to add my two bits from the lurker's chair that UT has been fairly unbiased while gothean has just been whining about the website and its operator instead of providing anything factual (or even emotionally moving, such as a picture of a carbombed PLO).

gothean, your bias is clear, and while on this website that's nothing to be ashamed of, you should be ashamed of the juvenile way in which you present it.



Uryoces  Thursday Aug 21 09:20 PM

Geothean, I like the religion quote. I assume by your moniker you mean "Student of" Goethe.

Mr. Toad has an opinion, a bias, yes; we all do. We're all free to discuss them in this forum. Attack his veiwpoint, not the man himself. Nothing makes me want to ignore someone more than when they preface an argument with "You are", "You possess a quality I don't like", "All Americans", "You Isrealis", "You humans", or "We Elder Gods ...".

I can fully imagine that Goethe and friends would gather around with a nice glass of wine and debate for hours about the state of things political, religious, and scientific. This is no different.

Only there's much more in the way of intoxicants in our blood...



Uryoces  Thursday Aug 21 09:22 PM

Oh, yeah, my moniker roughly translates to "Dog with tail". Uryoces sounded vaguely evil or divine, whatever. It stuck.



quzah  Thursday Aug 21 11:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
Why do they want body parts?
Apparently I'm the only one here that remembers why. It's actually shocking, since goethean seems to be the one who remembers every single palestinian article posted here, but I'll summarize, since I am too lazy to search for it:

I believe they look for body parts, as I recall from another IOTD posted here, to hold them up in a form of martyrship / icon, showing the wrongs brought upon them by Isreal. If I recall correctly, it's similar to the dark ages where people used to dig up the saints in hopes of getting a bone or hair that was supposed to be holy and have some form of power.

It's not exactly the same, because I don't think they're doing it as a holy relic type deal, but rather an icon they can parade around to the media to show the wrong done and to add more fuel to the fire, so to speak, for their cause.

It's very odd to see.

Now you can call me a palestinian hating something or other since I'm not painting them in a bright enough picture, goethean.


Quzah.


quzah  Thursday Aug 21 11:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by goethean
And because #4, the moderator gaining some degree of balance, is out of the question?
Let's take a look at common media for a moment, shall we?

In the news today, what are you more likely to run across:
a) Isreal attacks random Palestinian.
b) Palestinians attack random Isrealies.
c) Isreal and Palestine sit down to tea and scones.

Here's a hint: It's not usually C.

Given popular media resources, which of A or B are you likely to see images of? Well that's fairly obvious, since you always here:

"Suicide bombers did..."

Followed a few days later by:

"In retalialtion to 'suicide bombers did...', four villiages were leveled by tanks."

The news media paints Isreal's attacks always as retaliation. Somehow implying that that is ok, because they're just getting back at the Pallies.

Now personally I don't care how they paint it. The end result will forever be the same. They will both kill eachother for all of time. It will never end.

The good news is, we'll always have new IOTDs.

Oh, and simply put the word isreal in the search box and search IOTD, and you'll see the thread I was talking about in my last post. "palestinians swarm for body parts". Now I'm really surprised that goatie doesn't remember that one. Selective memory I guess.

Quzah.


juju  Friday Aug 22 12:50 AM

I did vaguely remember that shortly after I posted my question, but I didn't want to say anything because I couldn't remember where I'd heard it from. Anyway, thanks, Quzah.



tw  Friday Aug 22 02:10 AM

What is not bullshit - what is fact is that UT is completely one sided against Palestinians and for Israelis. What UT will not admit: All this violence and terrorist disappeared with the Oslo Accords. The Oslo Accords and a Palestinian state violate Likud objectives. To steal the West Bank, Likud needed to do three things:

1) Call for and get the murder of Rabin.

2) Do anything necessary to get more illegal settlements in the occupied territories - usually done by outright stealing of the best lands - in direct violation of International law, Israeli government assurances, Israeli law, and UN Resolutions.

3) Restart the intafada to justify more violence against arabs and to undermine any future peace initatives.

Likud got all three. Intafada II was started by Ariel Sharon and hundreds of his closest friends. They did many things to get the violence restarted including desecration of the Mosque on Temple Mount. The intafada is necessary to justify violence against Palestinians and to undermine everything created in the Oslo Accords. Anything that might stop the intafada - Sharon has done everything necessary to make sure that does not happen - while playing the mental midget George Jr with a mythical "roadmap".

UT refuses to even discuss these things let alone admit they are facts. He will never post pictures of how Israelis steal that rich land of orchard trees from a Palestinian farmer because UT is that personally biased. the Palestinian farmer must have been doing something wrong. Where are the pictures of Israeli solidiers killing children? And since Palestinian death rates are 3 and 8 times higher than Israelis, then a fair, unbiased man would show three to eight times more innocent and now dead Palestinians. UT never shows a dead, innocent Palestinian maybe because he does not believe there is such.

An Italian photographer was filming Israelis using live ammo in response to rock throwing. Israeli troops doing under orders of their commander what Israel said they do not do. So the Israeli soldiers shot and killed that Italian cameraman (sounds just like the *accidental* attack on the USS Liberty when Sharon's troops may have been massacring Egyptian POWs). Would UT put up such a picture. Of course not. He even refuses to admit that Isreal is lead by a dichead. A man known to have massacred 5,000 Palestinian women and children. A man that UT admires - facts be damned.

UT does post as if an extremist Likud. He still maintains those aluminum tubes were for a nuclear weaspons program when every fact said otherwise. Just another bias that he cannot concede. But then people have the right to post nonsense emotions - facts be damned. UT has the right to post extremist, one side bias in favor is Israel. He should be responsible enough to admit how extreme his biases are. He should be responsible enough to admit that all current violence is just what Ariel Sharon and Likud wanted - for the greater glory of Pax Israel.

UT is the same person who said there is no difference between a Palestinian and any other Arab. They are all the same people only emphasizes a "them verses us" bias.



juju  Friday Aug 22 02:35 AM




jaguar  Friday Aug 22 02:37 AM

While the rest of this thread is largely pointless I hae to say, after review LGF is if not a hate site, pretty damn close.

Try some of these comments for siize.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...ablus#comments


Hey look, they agree with dave!!

Quote:
It is not what needs to be done, what needs to be done is to give the PA 24 hours to start their civil war. If they refuse then we go to war with them. At the end of the war all leaders of the PA and Hamas etc., will be tried and hung. We will then spread their ashes on the Med.

The arabs that survive will be told to shut up and sit for 20 years before we even talk about some for of limited self government on a local level. As far as a PLO state it has gone the way of Rome, the third reich etc. Oh by the way if their is even a stone thrown on a Jew from village x then that village will be loaded up and sent to Jordan. We will then remove all signs of that village from the face of the earth.

Enough is Enough No More dead Jews
Because jews are more important than other human life.




quzah  Friday Aug 22 04:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by tw
UT refuses to even discuss these things let alone admit they are facts. He will never post pictures of how Israelis steal that rich land of orchard trees from a Palestinian farmer because UT is that personally biased.
Here's a more logical reason:

He probably doesn't post pictures of Isreal stealing land because... wait for it... It never makes the news!

You show me mainstream media coverage of this happening, with an interesting picture, and I bet it'll get posted. You know why you won't? Because it'll never happen. Mainstream media will never have said picture.

I doubt, but could be wrong, it happens, that there is some bias of why he won't post a picture of it. As stated, you'll never find a picture titled "Isralie grabs land!", because quite simply put, it isn't newsworthy.

I can see "Isralie tanks roll over Palestinian farm, set up shop", but, since nothing so huge happens, I really don't see it ever hitting the mainstream press.

Quote:
Originally posted by tw
Where are the pictures of Israeli solidiers killing children? And since Palestinian death rates are 3 and 8 times higher than Israelis, then a fair, unbiased man would show three to eight times more innocent and now dead Palestinians. UT never shows a dead, innocent Palestinian maybe because he does not believe there is such.
See above. The news does cover it, however, it usually doesn't have the same impact. Put aside your bias for a second and read this line:

Bob straps a bomb to himself, walks into a bar, and blows everyone up.

Now read this one:

Joe bombs a warehouse where Bobbilians were making weapons in retaliation to a suicide bombing.

Which one has a more sensationalist headline? You obviously have no idea how news media works. It is far more justifiable from the average person's perspective to get behind the actions of Joe as right, than it is to get behind Bob, who blows up a bar because he doesn't like the color of the building.

For that matter, you could reverse rolls and the exact same thing would happen. People would start villifying Israel if they started telling their people to suicide bomb everyone. Also, if the Palestinian people only ever attacked as a result (which is how it is portrayed by mass media) of said bombings, people would get behind their cause way way easier.

Quote:
Originally posted by tw
An Italian photographer was filming Israelis using live ammo in response to rock throwing. Israeli troops doing under orders of their commander what Israel said they do not do. So the Israeli soldiers shot and killed that Italian cameraman (sounds just like the *accidental* attack on the USS Liberty when Sharon's troops may have been massacring Egyptian POWs). Would UT put up such a picture. Of course not.
And American troops tanked a journalist to death (boom boom tank shells) because they were too fucking stupid to know that a video camera looks nothing at all like an RPG. Last I looked, it wasn't here either. So what exactly is your point?

Quote:
Originally posted by tw
He even refuses to admit that Isreal is lead by a dichead.

*snip*

UT is the same person who said there is no difference between a Palestinian and any other Arab. They are all the same people only emphasizes a "them verses us" bias.
And if he did admit his supposed bias, what then? Then you'd toot your own horn some more on how you are right. Quite frankly, I don't think anyone gives a shit. Or maybe it's just me.

Quzah.


Undertoad  Friday Aug 22 09:21 AM

Yes, Jag, LGF has a remarkably hateful comments section... as do we at times. LGF is a magnet for strong opinions and often hate, just like we would be if every thread here was on this topic.

IMO the guy who runs it is completely biased and he has sadly gone over the top with it. He used to be more reasonable. But he's also a remarkable repository of information not available elsewhere because he's so relentless.



Undertoad  Friday Aug 22 09:25 AM

Clarification for the ever-confused tw: my point about the nature of Palestinians was that a study showed they are pretty much genetically identical to Jews, not that they are "same as any other Arab". That point is pretty much irrelevant to anything, except that it underlines how the same people from the same land and the same grandfathers somehow managed to figure out how to divide and hate each other for no good reason.



Griff  Friday Aug 22 10:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
...just like we would be if every thread here was on this topic.
That is a big reason to participate in or at least read the other threads on the site. If you focus on one argument, the guy you are debating becomes one dimensional, making him easy to hate. Throw a broader net and you'll get a more realistic view of where he's coming from. I've thrown some pretty heavy stones at UT on this very issue and he never lit into me. Participate more not less establish yourself and fight for your position.


OnyxCougar  Friday Aug 22 10:47 AM



Quote:

*snip*

UT refuses to even discuss these things let alone admit they are facts.
I've only been lurking for about a year now, but thus far, I have YET to see UT refuse to discuss a topic.

As far as I can tell, some folks *coughgoethiancough* are pissed that UT is posting pictures of Palestinian Suicide-bombers and NOT posting Isreali atrocities ON PURPOSE and take issue with the idea that a moderator of a community forum seems biased (a moderator? biased? GET OUT! Really? How could that be?).

My reply to all this foolishness is this: If you got pics of it, and you want em posted so badly, POST THEM YOURSELF. There is a thread on this site called "Quality Images" and if you are so hell-bent on getting the "other side" in to compensate for UT's bias**, then why don't YOU post some pics of the the big-bad Isreali atrocities? Meantime, stop yer whinin'.

I was taught that if you don't like something, do something about it. You can leave or take action, but quit yer (unimpressive, impotent and inefficacious) bitchin already.




**I think it's perfectly NORMAL for people to have biases, and I think UT should be COMMENDED for hosting a COMMUNITY that allows for ideas and opinions to be freely discussed, regardless of Political Correctness, Intelligence, or Asshole factor. So hat's off, UT. I still love you.




Undertoad  Friday Aug 22 11:37 AM

"And since Palestinian death rates are 3 and 8 times higher than Israelis, then a fair, unbiased man would show three to eight times more innocent and now dead Palestinians. UT never shows a dead, innocent Palestinian maybe because he does not believe there is such." -tw

Palestinian death rates related to the conflict are, according to Reuters, about twice as high as Israeli deaths. However, judging the situation by the body count is wrong.

In the IotD thread we are discussing, I have shown one dead Palestinian and one victim whose status we don't know.

The Reuters statistics will include the bomber, but if the child lives, not the child.

Sure there are innocent Pals killed in the conflict. I think the last time Israel blew up a car with bad guys in it, the bad guys' kids were also in the car. That's tragic and dumb, but letting the bad guys live didn't work too well either, and the bad guys cannot be allowed to use their families as human shields. Reuters will count them all.



quzah  Friday Aug 22 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
I think the last time Israel blew up a car with bad guys in it, the bad guys' kids were also in the car. That's tragic and dumb, but letting the bad guys live didn't work too well either, and the bad guys cannot be allowed to use their families as human shields. Reuters will count them all.
There you go with your bias again! You're calling Palestinians "bad guys".

Quzah.


Undertoad  Friday Aug 22 12:30 PM

If I was really biased, I'd call the kids "bomblets".

(No smiley yet to say "inappropriate mix of horror and hilarity")



goethean  Friday Aug 22 12:48 PM

"biased"?

Try socio-pathic.

How would you respond to your children being called "bomblets"?



dave  Friday Aug 22 01:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
Hey look, they agree with dave!!
Hey look, you're a fuckin' retard!!

That's not at all what I said. I very clearly laid out what I believe has to happen, and I very clearly said that I didn't particularly want it to happen, but it's the only way to get peace.

Don't put words in my mouth.


dave  Friday Aug 22 01:24 PM

The "more Palestinians are killed by Israel than vice versa" myth has been torn apart on the Cellar before. If you remove suicide bombers and those that are attacking Israeli soldiers (which is kind of a dumb thing to do if you value your life), the number of innocent Palestinians killed by Israelis is lower than the number of innocent Israelis killed by Palestinian extremists.



Hubris Boy  Friday Aug 22 02:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
If I was really biased, I'd call the kids "bomblets".
I prefer the more technically correct term: submunitions.


tw  Friday Aug 22 06:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
... a study showed they [Palestinians] are pretty much genetically identical to Jews, not that they are "same as any other Arab".
A rather interesting point that make sense considering where both religions (they are not called races) come from. Any further source of details?


xoxoxoBruce  Friday Aug 22 06:36 PM

Then since they're two tribes decended from brothers, it's just a family feud. Of course any cop can tell you how dangerous domestic disputes are.



tw  Friday Aug 22 06:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
I've only been lurking for about a year now, but thus far, I have YET to see UT refuse to discuss a topic.
Here are the three points - the reasons why we have all this violence in the Middle East and why peace was destroyed by the right wing extrmist Sharon:
Likud needed to do three things:
1) Call for and get the murder of Rabin.
2) Do anything necessary to get more illegal settlements in the occupied territories - usually done by outright stealing of the best lands - in direct violation of International law, Israeli government assurances, Israeli law, and UN Resolutions.
3) Restart the intafada to justify more violence against arabs and to undermine any future peace initatives.

Show me where UT discusses these points. He avoids these facts completely to, instead, post more propaganda for Likud.

I don't care if UT does or does not post in a biased manner. Either should OnyxCougar. That is UT's right as an American who should not worry about the Patriot Act. Outright deception is by those who refuse to acknowldge this bias - that such posts are one-sided only in favor of the same right wing extremist Israelis who restarted all this killing. Likud started all this violence first by calling for the murder of Rabin. They being different from good Israelis, now caught and becoming victims of Sharon and his extremist murders.


Annebonannie  Friday Aug 22 07:03 PM

Quote:
Show me where UT discusses these points. He avoids these facts completely to, instead, post more propaganda for Likud
I must have missed where you posted your thread and invited UT to discuss it and he pointedly ignored you.


tw  Friday Aug 22 07:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by quzah
Here's a more logical reason:
He probably doesn't post pictures of Isreal stealing land because... wait for it... It never makes the news!

You show me mainstream media coverage of this happening, with an interesting picture, and I bet it'll get posted. You know why you won't? Because it'll never happen. Mainstream media will never have said picture.
ABC News, the BBC and CBS News all reported how land theft works. The Palestinian's orchard is completely cut down because the orchard could be used by terrorists to attack a West Bank settlement road. No such attack occurred. But it is necessary for security.

Just a few small problems that those mainstream American and British news sources noted:
1) the West Bank settlement and road are illegal and should not be there.
2) when same is done to an Israeli farmer, he is compensated for loss of those trees. Palestinian gets no compensation because of who he is.
3) the farmer replants his orchard in the same place. But since trees take 3 years to produce, then the famer cannot meet his debts. How convenient for the illegal West Bank settlers who can confiscate the farmers land.

One need be totally uniformed - as Liza Thomas Laurie - to not see these news stories. However some would post here without first learning what happens in the world. It is situation normal for Israelis to confiscate Palestinian land for about 50 new settlements every year. After all, this land theft is a source and need for increased deaths in the Middle East. But then this is what Sharon wanted when he restarted the intafada.

Land theft by Israelis? Where does UT even acknowledge this common event yet alone show the pictures. One must acknowledge he is that biased when it comes to the Middle East. Land theft is noraml. UT never posts pictures of this event.

If this land theft was not happening, then where did all those illegal Israeli settlement come from? Where is the UT pictiure of Israeli's buying land from the residents? Why bother. It is legal to steal land from Palestinians.

As a CBS news report showed, the Palestinian farmer outrightly complained as Israelis built a new road right through his farm to an illegal west bank settlement. When the farmer complained, those Israelis laughed right in his face - right there on camera. They are the superior race. He is but a scum Palestinian. The racist hate was obvious. Another blunt example of land theft carried by CBS Network news. So BBC, ABC, and CBS are not mainstream? Not according to those who use Liza Thomas Laurie and Daily News for information.


Undertoad  Friday Aug 22 07:41 PM

I ignore tw all the time and vice versa.

There's this big lingering question that he has to answer, along with all the rest of you:

...and does this justify terrorism and suicide bombing?

They stole the land, therefore we can kill indiscriminately?

They put up settlements, so we can perforate children with nails coated in rat poison?

Sharon visited the Temple Mount, ergo their grandmothers internal organs shredded?

They think they're so superior but they're really all racist so do I really need to say it?

Why do they get this outrageous free pass?



Nothing But Net  Friday Aug 22 09:01 PM

Aw, c'mon Undertoad!

Everyone knows that only a white American male can be a true racist. All the others are just "defending their rights".



xoxoxoBruce  Saturday Aug 23 12:47 AM

TW, this is the Image of the Day thread. Show me the pictures.



elSicomoro  Saturday Aug 23 01:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by tw
CBS News
People still watch that?


goethean  Saturday Aug 23 11:27 AM

Quote:
There's this big lingering question that he has to answer, along with all the rest of you:
I never said, or intended to say, that the Palestinians were any more ethical than the Israelis. I merely pointed out that UT's Likudian--good adjective, tw--coverage of the conflict implied that one side is more ethical than the other. And I would be satisfied if UT just admitted that he is simply on one side of the conflict.


Tom  Sunday Aug 24 12:55 PM

Does accepting which side you're on invalidate an argument? Would the Nazis have gone away if the world didn't take sides? Why reach for a label if you have a point?



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Aug 24 01:32 PM

Good point Tom and welcome to the Cellar.
I think it's human nature, when you hear someone make a statement, to consider it "out of context" without doing a mental search for who the speaker is and and their passed statements.
This helps us sort out sarcasm and inconsistency. I'm not saying I approve, but I understand.



goethean  Monday Aug 25 11:32 AM

Quote:
Does accepting which side you're on invalidate an argument?
No, but the hypocrisy of those who think that they are moderating between the two sides, when in fact their position for all practical purposes endorses one side, is revealing.


Nathan Barnes  Monday Aug 25 01:23 PM

Indecisive, but not indifferent

I can't pick a side on the whole Palestine/Israel situation. On the one hand, if the Western nations were going to re-establish an Israeli nation, they really should have used their own land to do it (New Jerusalem somewhere in Arizona?). Israel's rapid growth through hostile annexation of the locals' land during those early years bothers me, too.

On the other hand, the terrorists' tactics and the other Palestinians' apparent approval of them make it hard for me to maintain my sympathy for the Palestenians' suffering.

I am curious to see what will come of this new Great Wall that they're working on. If nothing else, maybe it'll keep the settlers on their own side.

I could completely misunderstand the situation over there, of course. My only sources have been a few books, a comic b...er, graphic novel and some news articles.



Nathan Barnes  Monday Aug 25 01:29 PM

At least this latest project will give me a real fence to sit on. (ba-dum ching!)



xoxoxoBruce  Monday Aug 25 06:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Barnes
At least this latest project will give me a real fence to sit on. (ba-dum ching!)
If you're going to fence sit, be careful when you picket.


jaguar  Monday Aug 25 10:06 PM

Well gee dave you sure seem to think the only Final Solution to the conflict is very, very similar to what I copied from LGF - complete crushing of any kind of freedom or independence of all Palastinians and draconian rule under the yoke of the Isreali Government.

You never explicitly stated that you supported such an event but your defence of it demonstrates you think it is the only solution.



xoxoxoBruce  Monday Aug 25 11:03 PM

I don't think he was defending it so much as predicting it.



ndetroit  Monday Aug 25 11:19 PM

Quote:
Israel uses missiles from helicopters, usually. They know which car it is because they have informants and an extremely good intelligence agency, Mossad.

Hey dave, you were right.. (about the helicopters anyway):

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/me...ast/index.html

"Witnesses to Sunday's missile attack in Gaza said the four Hamas members ran into a vacant lot near a base housing members of Force 17, Arafat's personal guard, when Israeli helicopter gunships fired at least two missiles about 9:55 p.m. (2:55 p.m. EDT), killing them. "



how wacky would this whole conflict be if both sides had attack helicopters.



what if both sides had (relatively) stable governenments and nuclear weapons ...... ... (?)


end of conflict? . ....




... how about a nice game of chess?


gossard187  Tuesday Aug 26 12:39 AM

Quote:
what if both sides had (relatively) stable governenments and nuclear weapons ...... ... (?)
kashmir?


dave  Tuesday Aug 26 08:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
Well gee dave you sure seem to think the only Final Solution to the conflict is very, very similar to what I copied from LGF - complete crushing of any kind of freedom or independence of all Palastinians and draconian rule under the yoke of the Isreali Government.

You never explicitly stated that you supported such an event but your defence of it demonstrates you think it is the only solution.
I don't appreciate you inferring that the end is Nazi-like, because it's not.

It's not a crushing of freedom or independence, and if you wanted to read what I actually said, you would see that.

I think it is the only means to actual <b>peace</b>.

If you're not going to bother actually reading what I write instead of getting two words in and taking it as something I copied from LGF (which I <b>don't</b> read), then I'm not going to bother taking much effort to respond.


Your reply here?

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