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   Undertoad  Thursday Mar 4 02:20 PM

3/4/2004: Ashoura 2004



Thanks to Slarti for pointing this out. Once again it's the Shiite festival/blood ritual Ashoura, a festival which IotD has noted twice before. The news images carry these shots each year but is it helpful to note that only a small segment of Shiites go around cutting themselves or their kids? And that the head bleeds profusely in any situation, and not too painfully? And that they hit the wound with their blades to keep it bleeding?

This is the day which was reported this time around to be utterly violent in another way - marked by attacks on the Shiites, thought to be terrorism meant to try to evoke civil war.

With hundreds dead and hundreds more injured, suddenly the blood ritual is not so bad.



I guess.



OnyxCougar  Thursday Mar 4 02:41 PM

I find myself appalled that they cut their children and make them bleed. Then I realize that I have to step out of what Western Culture considers "right and wrong" and realize that this is no more wrong to them as circumcision is to westerners.

Still, I'm not entirely comfortable with the images of bloody children. Especially in the first picture, the child is sucking on a bloodied finger. The father's face isn't bloody, and I would have thought his face would be bloody too, to "celebrate" or whatever.

I also want to mention I switched from lurking to posting about a year ago this month.



Leah  Thursday Mar 4 04:04 PM

These people are friggin SICK.
This is what they deserve
No wonder why there are so many F#@Ked up people in this world.



glatt  Thursday Mar 4 04:09 PM

Yeah! They are strange. We should kill them.



Slartibartfast  Thursday Mar 4 04:19 PM

This practice is just too disturbing. The adult must see some percieved benefit to the child in his actions, and that just makes the whole thing worse.



ladysycamore  Thursday Mar 4 04:24 PM

The FUCK?!?!?! Dear God, I thought for sure that was fake blood...until I read the post. Jesus....*shakes head*



glatt  Thursday Mar 4 04:51 PM

I would never do that to either of my young children. The images are distubing. I think it's crazy.

But if you look at them with a clinical detached eye, you see that the kids are fine. They aren't crying. They aren't distressed. They just go with the flow. When my kids hurt themselves, they cry like crazy. Kids cry when they are in pain. These kids are fine. It's just blood, and the scabs will heal in a week.

The red blood just makes people freak out.

It's another cuture. Try to keep an open mind.



Leah  Thursday Mar 4 05:04 PM

glatt, you can have an open mind on this culture, but I can tell you that most of us still think it's F#@king sick. I'll never have an open mind to this kind of stuff. It's primitive.



Pearcie (AUS)  Thursday Mar 4 05:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Leah
glatt, you can have an open mind on this culture, but I can tell you that most of us still think it's F#@king sick. I'll never have an open mind to this kind of stuff. It's primitive.
You tell em Leah!


Zenchou  Thursday Mar 4 05:21 PM

Ah yes, because where in our systems of belief do we espouse tolerance?

Certainly we don't do anything strange or even risky in our utopic, modern America. At the very least, we would never seek to glorify any of those risky topics, nono...

You're right, we should fear and look down upon anything "primitive" because anything which is not modern can't be worthwhile, or even tolerated.



Troubleshooter  Thursday Mar 4 05:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zenchou
Ah yes, because where in our systems of belief do we espouse tolerance?

Certainly we don't do anything strange or even risky in our utopic, modern America. At the very least, we would never seek to glorify any of those risky topics, nono...

You're right, we should fear and look down upon anything "primitive" because anything which is not modern can't be worthwhile, or even tolerated.
I'm sensing a little sarcasm here. I'm not sure though.

Hence my opinion of the reliance on religion in the first place. It's silly and a waste of time, money and paper.


Pearcie (AUS)  Thursday Mar 4 05:36 PM

Zen, I don't think it's an issue of what's modern and what's primitive, I think it's more an issue of these ppl pulling out big ass knives and smacking their babies in the head with them in order to make them bleed all over the place. Whether it's modern or primitive in my opinion it is an awful thing to do to anyone, specially your own child. I could never bring myself to hit a small child with a knife regardless of how harmless it may really be, it just goes against everything I believe,feel,think, am.



Troubleshooter  Thursday Mar 4 05:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by glatt
I would never do that to either of my young children. The images are distubing. I think it's crazy.

But if you look at them with a clinical detached eye, you see that the kids are fine. They aren't crying. They aren't distressed. They just go with the flow. When my kids hurt themselves, they cry like crazy. Kids cry when they are in pain. These kids are fine. It's just blood, and the scabs will heal in a week.

The red blood just makes people freak out.

It's another cuture. Try to keep an open mind.
I got "you're kids are fine" right here.









Now I ask you, what is fine about this?


Pearcie (AUS)  Thursday Mar 4 05:47 PM

Is it just me, or can no one see Troubleshooter's pics???



Troubleshooter  Thursday Mar 4 05:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pearcie (AUS)
Is it just me, or can no one see Troubleshooter's pics???
I saw them at first, but then they disappeared. Weird.


Troubleshooter  Thursday Mar 4 05:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pearcie (AUS)
Is it just me, or can no one see Troubleshooter's pics???
Here are the links to the pics, please look at them and tell me things are all fine and dandy.

http://www.twin-towers.net/images/Ashoura.jpg

http://www.twin-towers.net/images/Ashoura7.jpg

http://www.twin-towers.net/kgart.jpg

http://www.twin-towers.net/kgart3.jpg

Edit: That's too weird. If you put the link in the address box directly it works fine, but any form of redirect sends you somewhere else entirely. Well, here's the site, try that.

http://www.twin-towers.net/muslims.htm


Shattered Soul  Thursday Mar 4 05:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Troubleshooter


I'm sensing a little sarcasm here. I'm not sure though.

Hence my opinion of the reliance on religion in the first place. It's silly and a waste of time, money and paper.
I take it you are an athiest, or at the least, an agnostic? And I take it you have a very long list of what you consider "weakness," and religion falls into that category? You seem to be very sure of yourself and that your beliefs are eminently logical, and therefore correct (the rest of us are just too unevolved to see it).

Seems to me that you've created a world of your own and do what it takes to prove that world's validity to everyone else. Hm. Kinda like the religious folks...

Merely because some find comfort in the belief in something greater than themselves, and use that belief to their benefit, even though religion has been the basis of wars (usually, however, instigated by the governments who saw a use for believers and believers who were zealous enough to go along with it) is no call to unilaterally deem it "silly and a waste of time..." You don't believe it, or feel it worthy of belief, well, don't believe it. Don't ascribe to it. Don't hang with people who will soil your pristinely logical mind with spirituality.


Zenchou  Thursday Mar 4 06:05 PM

I don't think that there is anything wrong with being averse to this kind of behavior. Quite frankly my first reaction is distaste as well. But what we need to do is step back and examine the actions from outside our own cultural view (if that is possible).

Stating that what these people deserve is a machine gun smiley is not exactly a worthwhile idea in my opinion.

The children are scared, yes. They bleed, yes. It is dangerous, yes. It is contrary to our system of beliefs, yes. But the question is, are we really averse to this because the children are in serious danger, or is it because this is a cultural idea which seems foreign to us.

A bad example, but here goes: Lets look at swimming lessons. I personally was terrified of swimming. My parents forced me to learn how, and I am thankful now, because I rather enjoy swimming. Now, was I scared as hell? yes. Also, there is a chance that I could drown. Slight, this is true, but still a chance. Yet we don't see forcing a kid to learn how to swim even though he is afraid of the water as a horrible thing.

This is a bad parallel, I know, but it conveys the idea adequately I think. We are shocked by this because our values do not coincide with it, but if we take it out of our frame of vision, and look at it from a different cultural perspective, it is not quite the way we imagined it to be.

That all being said, perhaps there are some cultures which have better ideas on raising children than do others, but that is an argument which in all probability cannot be solved. I don't even want to begin suggesting which culture's children are "better" because that is a worthless argument in my opinion.

What I AM sure of is suggesting that people who commit strange, sometimes dangerous acts should all be machine gunned to death because they are primitive.



Troubleshooter  Thursday Mar 4 06:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shattered Soul


I take it you are an athiest, or at the least, an agnostic? And I take it you have a very long list of what you consider "weakness," and religion falls into that category? You seem to be very sure of yourself and that your beliefs are eminently logical, and therefore correct (the rest of us are just too unevolved to see it).

Seems to me that you've created a world of your own and do what it takes to prove that world's validity to everyone else. Hm. Kinda like the religious folks...

Merely because some find comfort in the belief in something greater than themselves, and use that belief to their benefit, even though religion has been the basis of wars (usually, however, instigated by the governments who saw a use for believers and believers who were zealous enough to go along with it) is no call to unilaterally deem it "silly and a waste of time..." You don't believe it, or feel it worthy of belief, well, don't believe it. Don't ascribe to it. Don't hang with people who will soil your pristinely logical mind with spirituality.
Some people feel the need for something greater than themselves. I don't.

Some people feel the need for an answer to every unsolved question. I'm quite willing to accept "I don't know," instead of making up a completely improvable, and no more plausible than anybody else's, story about how it happened.

Religion is the manifestation of humanity's insecurities and inability to think about more than their self.


Pearcie (AUS)  Thursday Mar 4 06:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Troubleshooter


Religion is the manifestation of humanity's insecurities and inability to think about more than their self.
Here Here! Well said Shooter.


Shattered Soul  Thursday Mar 4 06:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Troubleshooter


Some people feel the need for something greater than themselves. I don't.


Oooh...delusions of grandeur...gotta love 'em.


Quote:
Some people feel the need for an answer to every unsolved question. I'm quite willing to accept "I don't know," instead of making up a completely improvable, and no more plausible than anybody else's, story about how it happened.

Ah, but you imply that you DO know, merely by saying that religion (I prefer "spirituality," I don't personally ascribe to "religion," myself. ) is silly and a waste of time. You don't KNOW that. You BELIEVE that, but you can't say that you KNOW. And merely because something hasn't been proven doesn't mean it can't be.


Quote:
Religion is the manifestation of humanity's insecurities and inability to think about more than their self.

Again, your opinion, not necessarily reality. Others may feel differently. Merely because people desire to believe in something bigger than themselves is not necessarily an insecurity, and the very belief in a creator, however one chooses to picture it/him/her is looking beyond oneself.


Oh, and it's "themselves," btw...


Shattered Soul  Thursday Mar 4 06:19 PM

I just love playing Devil's Advocate.

I believe what I believe, and anyone who believes differently is free to, so long as they don't shove their different beliefs down MY throat. Live and let live, I say. But TS, you're so SURE of what you believe, and SO SURE that you're right, that you bring out the Devil's Advocate in me. You strike me as an "The only time I was ever wrong was the one time I thought I was wrong" kind of person.



OnyxCougar  Thursday Mar 4 06:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Troubleshooter


Here are the links to the pics, please look at them and tell me things are all fine and dandy.
http://www.twin-towers.net/muslims.htm
I don't understand the purpose of the site. Pro Muslim? AntiMuslim? They are certainly pro-lesbian porn. Are they trying to make a political statement? Why are most of the photos missing?


Pearcie (AUS)  Thursday Mar 4 06:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shattered Soul
I just love playing Devil's Advocate.

I believe what I believe, and anyone who believes differently is free to, so long as they don't shove their different beliefs down MY throat. Live and let live, I say.
Now this is good stuff! I totally agree with this one Shattered. Mainly the idea of "believe what you want just don't preach to me".

On the other hand, this is a discussion forum where the idea is to discuss what we see and how it makes us feel. We're not sending all these thoughts over to the ppl concerned, we're just voicing opinions and ideas. For anyone to say anyone else's beliefs are 'wrong' is absurd but we can express how we see these beliefs personally, and what better place to do it than here in the Cellar.


Shattered Soul  Thursday Mar 4 06:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pearcie (AUS)


Now this is good stuff! I totally agree with this one Shattered. Mainly the idea of "believe what you want just don't preach to me".

On the other hand, this is a discussion forum where the idea is to discuss what we see and how it makes us feel. We're not sending all these thoughts over to the ppl concerned, we're just voicing opinions and ideas. For anyone to say anyone else's beliefs are 'wrong' is absurd but we can express how we see these beliefs personally, and what better place to do it than here in the Cellar.
I agree. Like I said, it's just that he brings out the Devil's Advocate in me. All of his posts are so "this is how it is, end of story." I'm having a blast.


Troubleshooter  Thursday Mar 4 06:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zenchou
I don't think that there is anything wrong with being averse to this kind of behavior. Quite frankly my first reaction is distaste as well. But what we need to do is step back and examine the actions from outside our own cultural view (if that is possible).
I appreciate the understanding that you are showing, but that being said, understanding need only go so far. Ashoura is only part of the problem. It's part of a program that teaches that infidels are only so much extra shrapnel.


Quote:
Originally posted by Zenchou

Stating that what these people deserve is a machine gun smiley is not exactly a worthwhile idea in my opinion.
I disagree. They want to give us a bit more than a smiley.


Quote:
Originally posted by Zenchou

The children are scared, yes. They bleed, yes. It is dangerous, yes. It is contrary to our system of beliefs, yes. But the question is, are we really averse to this because the children are in serious danger, or is it because this is a cultural idea which seems foreign to us.
I'm averse to it because it's only the tip of a homicidal, suicidal, dark ages, un-evolved, towering mountain of hate.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zenchou

A bad example, but here goes: Lets look at swimming lessons. I personally was terrified of swimming. My parents forced me to learn how, and I am thankful now, because I rather enjoy swimming. Now, was I scared as hell? yes. Also, there is a chance that I could drown. Slight, this is true, but still a chance. Yet we don't see forcing a kid to learn how to swim even though he is afraid of the water as a horrible thing.

This is a bad parallel, I know, but it conveys the idea adequately I think. We are shocked by this because our values do not coincide with it, but if we take it out of our frame of vision, and look at it from a different cultural perspective, it is not quite the way we imagined it to be.
Um, swimming is useful, as in not drowning. Scalping yourself isn't. Hell, even the native americans had the sense to do it to the other guy and sell them to a third party for a profit.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zenchou

That all being said, perhaps there are some cultures which have better ideas on raising children than do others, but that is an argument which in all probability cannot be solved. I don't even want to begin suggesting which culture's children are "better" because that is a worthless argument in my opinion.
Then it is my opinion that you need to read and get out more.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zenchou

What I AM sure of is suggesting that people who commit strange, sometimes dangerous acts should all be machine gunned to death because they are primitive.
While a bit ambiguous, I'm guessing that you meant to end with is, "is bad," or some such, so I'll answer on that basis.

If there can be shown a provable link between a given culture/group/etc. and past and present attrocities and there appears to be a liklihood of future attrocities then I say "Fire when ready Gridley!" And don't forget the dosimeters and the marshmellows.


Pearcie (AUS)  Thursday Mar 4 06:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Troubleshooter


I say "Fire when ready Gridley!" And don't forget the dosimeters and the marshmellows.
LOL!!!


Shattered Soul  Thursday Mar 4 06:41 PM

BUT, returning to the topic for a moment, I figure the adults can do whatever the hell they want to themselves, but I don't think the children should be involved until they're old enough to make the conscious choice. Course, they don't really have a CHOICE, when you think about it, do they, considering the fact that the country is a Theocracy....



Troubleshooter  Thursday Mar 4 06:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shattered Soul

Oooh...delusions of grandeur...gotta love 'em.
Not at all. No one, ever, anywhere, anytime, has shown me that there is more to this existence than what we create.

Quote:
Originally posted by Shattered Soul

Ah, but you imply that you DO know, merely by saying that religion (I prefer "spirituality," I don't personally ascribe to "religion," myself. ) is silly and a waste of time. You don't KNOW that. You BELIEVE that, but you can't say that you KNOW. And merely because something hasn't been proven doesn't mean it can't be.
See my first point. If it's unproven it's not religion, it's art. Calling all of this art is the only thing that could redeem it at this point. Catharsis and auto-erotic masochism I could tolerate.

Quote:
Originally posted by Shattered Soul
Again, your opinion, not necessarily reality. Others may feel differently. Merely because people desire to believe in something bigger than themselves is not necessarily an insecurity, and the very belief in a creator, however one chooses to picture it/him/her is looking beyond oneself.
Then what is it?

And I'm not going to kill you for not changing your mind about my beliefs either.

Quote:
Originally posted by Shattered Soul

Oh, and it's "themselves," btw...
I stand corrected.


xoxoxoBruce  Thursday Mar 4 06:49 PM

Uh, it's marshmallows.

Quote:
even the native americans had the sense to do it to the other guy and sell them to a third party for a profit.
Many indigenous peoples, including Indians of the Americas used blood rituals and scarification as part of their religious ceremonies.


Shattered Soul  Thursday Mar 4 06:51 PM

"If it's unproven it's not religion, it's art. Calling all of this art is the only thing that could redeem it"
------------


You're contradicting yourself here...if it's unproven it's NOT religion, it's art? Huh?




"Then what is it?"
-------------

It's a looking beyond oneself and, possibly, considering that there may be a first cause and that that first cause may be conscious.

If you create life in a test tube, and then put it out in the environment, but that life never, EVER sees evidence of your existence, and yet somehow begins believing that some sort of consciousness created it, does it make you any less real because they have no concrete PROOF that you exist?



"And I'm not going to kill you for not changing your mind about my beliefs either."
------------

What's that in re to?



Clodfobble  Thursday Mar 4 06:59 PM

On another note, I think the best correlation so far has been circumcision. In this modern country, can anyone really justify circumcision other than "tradition?"



poohbearbeth  Thursday Mar 4 07:11 PM

Disturbing

Quite disturbing........
I can't believe one would say " they are not crying"
You are putting a knife to your child....That is unspeakable



Pearcie (AUS)  Thursday Mar 4 07:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Clodfobble
On another note, I think the best correlation so far has been circumcision. In this modern country, can anyone really justify circumcision other than "tradition?"
I'm not the most learned on the subject but there are hygenic benefits to circumcision also.


poohbearbeth  Thursday Mar 4 07:18 PM

circumcision is done for health purposes



jinx  Thursday Mar 4 07:33 PM

"Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision."
- The American Academy of Pediatrics

PEDIATRICS, Volume 103, Number 3, Pages 686-693,
March 1, 1999.



Torrere  Thursday Mar 4 08:01 PM

circumcision is wrong



lumberjim  Thursday Mar 4 08:07 PM

i don;t see a great difference between this and baptism. apart from the blood. and the big scary knives.

people do some fucked up stuff to their bodies and their kids' bodies. chinese folk bind feet, some tribes in africa stretch necks, put plates in their lips, ears and who knows where else. people perform female circumscisions, massive tattoing and scarring.

it freaks you out because you see a bloody child.



Zenchou  Thursday Mar 4 08:11 PM

Quote:
I appreciate the understanding that you are showing, but that being said, understanding need only go so far. Ashoura is only part of the problem. It's part of a program that teaches that infidels are only so much extra shrapnel.
That is a massive generalization which you offered no proof of. Those kind of statements result from very shallow understandings of cultures and religions which make little or no effort to understand the true meanings. That being said, anyone can put a religion or culture in a bad light, yes, thats right, even Christianity/Judaism/whatever else you please. A broad statement of "they are all taught to kill anyone not of their religion" is hardly convincing.

Quote:
I disagree. They want to give us a bit more than a smiley.
Another massive generalization which is blaming the radical actions of some people who happen to share the same religion/culture on those people as a whole, rather than the individuals or specific group.




Additionally, I could argue for days about the whole which child or which culture is better issue, but I won't. I didn't quite structure my statement correctly, but that is not the issue here, so I'm not going to start a different discussion. However, I might recommend that you not be so patronizing and tell me to "get out more". If you wish to make a point, do so in a more polite way, it is more effective and maintains the pretense of civility.


Quote:
Um, swimming is useful, as in not drowning. Scalping yourself isn't. Hell, even the native americans had the sense to do it to the other guy and sell them to a third party for a profit.
So the only measure of worth of an activity is usefulness? That seems incredibly narrow, and would result in a rather boring life in my opinion, if we only did those things we felt were "useful". Not to mention, that rules out much of western religious pratices as well, if you don't think that their religious ideas are "useful" then no other religious ideas are "useful" either.

It's not a question of "use" for me. Instead, it's a question of beliefs. They believe in this strange ritual of cutting their head to show their faith. I think it's ridiculous, but no more ridiculous than many other religious practices.


Quote:
If there can be shown a provable link between a given culture/group/etc. and past and present attrocities and there appears to be a liklihood of future attrocities then I say "Fire when ready Gridley!" And don't forget the dosimeters and the marshmellows.
First of all, the issue on whether or not there is a "proveable link" should be FAR from closed from anyone who has "read and gotten out more" (sorry, couldn't resist). Aside from that, however, there are plenty of ways to connect "past and present attrocities" to any government or culture, and very easy to project those images into the future. By your statement, perhaps we should just start shooting everyone just to be safe.

Additionally, it seems depressing to me that once you have found some sort of connection between past and present action, and possible (unless you can somehow see the future, you have no idea what will really happen) that your first inclination is to start shooting. While many people share this opinion with you, I find it disheartening


Leah  Thursday Mar 4 08:11 PM

Hey Pearcie haven't you got much work today??? Me either.
TGIF
:p



lumberjim  Thursday Mar 4 08:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Torrere
circumcision is wrong
in your opinion


OnyxCougar  Thursday Mar 4 08:50 PM

Being the lazy ass that I am, (and not wanting to surf the muslim/porn central link from work), can anyone find the reason why they feel they have to cut themselves to celebrate?

Is it in a holy book or something?

Thou shalt cut thyself on the head and thy children, yea, even the little child shall be cut. When the blood stoppeth the flow, verily, take thy knife and smack the cut repeatedly while wearing white. Behold! The media shall frenzy!



Pearcie (AUS)  Thursday Mar 4 08:51 PM

Yeah I've got plenty Leah, but like u said TGIF. A good day to relax I reckon. This thread has become way to heavy for Friday tho, I reckon this'll be my last post today. I've got big plans tonight, my sister is coming over for dinner tonight, she's bringing her newborn so after dinner I'm gonna get a big knife and smack him on the head with it til he pisses blood al over the place and then I'm going to cheer and say 'praise the lord!'




Troubleshooter  Thursday Mar 4 08:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Uh, it's marshmallows.
I stand corrected.

Quote:
Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce

Many indigenous peoples, including Indians of the Americas used blood rituals and scarification as part of their religious ceremonies.
And?

That doesn't make it good, right, or just. And were not talking about them. We're talking about a people who hate us with a white hot heat that is fired by a religiou that requires them to do things that are self destructive as a means to prove their faith.

And I'm just reminded of some video clips I downloaded a good while back that I will make available if I can find them as a case in point.


Shattered Soul  Thursday Mar 4 09:05 PM

"So the only measure of worth of an activity is usefulness? That seems incredibly narrow, and would result in a rather boring life in my opinion, if we only did those things we felt were "useful". .."


Right on, Zenchou. That, I think, is what TS doesn't understand. "Useful" to him, it appears, is what he himself deems so. Anything else is a waste of time, again, because he believes it to be so.



Shattered Soul  Thursday Mar 4 09:07 PM

Oh, and btw, TS, you have once again ceased communications on something I have asked you to explain. This is getting to be a trend, it appears.

Of course, you probably feel that you don't need to explain yourself...but if there's one thing I've seen here, it's this: if you don't want to have to explain yourself, don't post an opinion.



lumberjim  Thursday Mar 4 09:13 PM

did you two have a spat somewhere else that i missed?

troubleshooter has a right to his own opinion, as do you. you seem to be taking his opinion rather personally, imo, though. what gives?



Troubleshooter  Thursday Mar 4 09:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shattered Soul
You're contradicting yourself here...if it's unproven it's NOT religion, it's art? Huh?
A poor explanation on my part I guess. I was trying to say that if your religion is an expression of how you feel that the universe was created and how you think your creator thinks it needs to be run that is fine, but I am not going to let your artistic endeavor interfere with, or end, my life.

Quote:
Originally posted by Shattered Soul

It's a looking beyond oneself and, possibly, considering that there may be a first cause and that that first cause may be conscious.
I look beyond myself all of the time, my interest in sociology and philosophy is an extension of that. Philosophy requires some reason to your thinking though.

That being said, if your reason for all of the flubdubbery is a desire for something more ephemeral or more powerful then you more power to you, but there is yet to be shown any form of first cause. Not even the big bang.

Quote:
Originally posted by Shattered Soul

If you create life in a test tube, and then put it out in the environment, but that life never, EVER sees evidence of your existence, and yet somehow begins believing that some sort of consciousness created it, does it make you any less real because they have no concrete PROOF that you exist?
No it doesn't, but it doesn't make their belief reasonable. Without evidence or proof, it's fiction.

Quote:
Originally posted by Shattered Soul

"And I'm not going to kill you for not changing your mind about my beliefs either."
------------

What's that in re to?
To borrow wisdom from Sensei Carlin:
"Millions of dead motherfuckers all because they gave the wrong answer to the god question.

You believe in God?

No.

*doomph*

You believe in God?

Yes.

You believe in my God?

No.

*doomph*

MIllions of dead motherfuckers..."


Troubleshooter  Thursday Mar 4 09:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Being the lazy ass that I am, (and not wanting to surf the muslim/porn central link from work), can anyone find the reason why they feel they have to cut themselves to celebrate?

Is it in a holy book or something?

Thou shalt cut thyself on the head and thy children, yea, even the little child shall be cut. When the blood stoppeth the flow, verily, take thy knife and smack the cut repeatedly while wearing white. Behold! The media shall frenzy!
They're celebrating the martyrdom of Mohammad's (sp) grandson.


Shattered Soul  Thursday Mar 4 09:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lumberjim
did you two have a spat somewhere else that i missed?

troubleshooter has a right to his own opinion, as do you. you seem to be taking his opinion rather personally, imo, though. what gives?
Oh, no...no spat. He's just got an extreme world-view going on, and it brings out my inner Devil's Advocate. I've got nothing against him at all. I even think he's got good points at times.


Shattered Soul  Thursday Mar 4 09:26 PM

TS:


Well there you go. MY point was that you were making a sweeping accusation of silliness and stupidity of all those who DO believe in something that you do not believe in. Merely because you do not believe in it and cannot prove it does not make it silly or false.

And DO you look beyond yourself, really? Studying philosophy and sociology don't mean that you look beyond yourself, it just means that you read the works of people who looked beyond THEMSELVES (philosophy), and sociology is just a way to learn the trends of how people act in what situations, all the better to manipulate them. Companies use Soc all the time. It's a basis of advertising.



jinx  Thursday Mar 4 09:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Being the lazy ass that I am, (and not wanting to surf the muslim/porn central link from work), can anyone find the reason why they feel they have to cut themselves to celebrate?

Is it in a holy book or something?

Thou shalt cut thyself on the head and thy children, yea, even the little child shall be cut. When the blood stoppeth the flow, verily, take thy knife and smack the cut repeatedly while wearing white. Behold! The media shall frenzy!
From CNN


Troubleshooter  Thursday Mar 4 09:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shattered Soul
"So the only measure of worth of an activity is usefulness? That seems incredibly narrow, and would result in a rather boring life in my opinion, if we only did those things we felt were "useful". .."
Yes. But to qualify that, if the usefulness is pleasure then it is useful.

And why does everyone say that boring is bad? In time boring becomes the norm and is no longer boring. We see it every day, but in reverse. Clothing, language, thought, all becoming more coarse every day. Why can't we reverse the trend towards higher standards?

Quote:
Originally posted by Shattered Soul

Right on, Zenchou. That, I think, is what TS doesn't understand. "Useful" to him, it appears, is what he himself deems so. Anything else is a waste of time, again, because he believes it to be so.
My standards are based on a desire for improvement and simplicty that is derived from the greatest thinkers if time, Kant, Plato, Epictetus, Epicurus, Hobbs, Socrates, and so on.

If I have one belief in this world it is that only humanity can save humanity.

People are migratind towards a degree of complex shallowness and venality that is truly staggering.


OnyxCougar  Thursday Mar 4 09:39 PM

Perh aps I didn't phrase my question correctly. I understand they are celebrating a holy day, I understand it's for Imam. Why are they hitting themselves in the head with knives? Why not...go fuck a cow? Why are they celebrating it in this particular manner. The CNN article doesn't answer that.



Troubleshooter  Thursday Mar 4 09:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Perh aps I didn't phrase my question correctly. I understand they are celebrating a holy day, I understand it's for Imam. Why are they hitting themselves in the head with knives? Why not...go fuck a cow? Why are they celebrating it in this particular manner. The CNN article doesn't answer that.
Ah, gotcha.

I'm not sure. Maybe I can find a Muslim on campus and ask.

Blood, pain, tithing, flagellation, asceticism, abstinance *shudder*; various forms of abuse or self-denial are central to some (most?) religions.


jinx  Thursday Mar 4 09:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Perh aps I didn't phrase my question correctly. I understand they are celebrating a holy day, I understand it's for Imam. Why are they hitting themselves in the head with knives? Why not...go fuck a cow? Why are they celebrating it in this particular manner. The CNN article doesn't answer that.
"In the past, many Shia men have demonstrated their devotion to Husayn by letting their blood flow freely from self-inflicted wounds. Today, however, many governments have tried to ban this practice, with varying degrees of success. In Lebanon, the practice is permitted, and a bloody commemoration of Ashoura takes place in Nabatieh every year."

Apparently the head wound is not the only thing they do. The CNN article says;

"Shortly after the explosions, pilgrims returned to the Imam Hussein mosque: chanting, beating their breasts in penance, cutting themselves with daggers or swords and whipping themselves in synchronized moves."

I would imagine the head wound is common (and done to the kids) because, as UT pointed out in the orginal post, you get more bang for your buck in the blood:suffering ratio.


bjlhct  Thursday Mar 4 09:56 PM

Their holy guy got killed for his views. It's kinda like those people that hang themselves on crosses - old IOD pic anyone? - but less painful.

Please stop the argument. It is going nowhere.



Lady Sidhe  Thursday Mar 4 10:31 PM

(TS in quotes)

"... to qualify that, if the usefulness is pleasure then it is useful."


Yes, I can vouch for the fact that he thinks that if it's pleasurable for him, it is therefore useful, and therefore OK, no matter what it is.



"And why does everyone say that boring is bad?....Why can't we reverse the trend towards higher standards?"


I've been asking you that for a year, and haven't gotten an answer yet.


quote:Originally posted by Shattered Soul

Right on, Zenchou. That, I think, is what TS doesn't understand. "Useful" to him, it appears, is what he himself deems so. Anything else is a waste of time, again, because he believes it to be so.


That's true.



"My standards are based on a desire for improvement and simplicty that is derived from the greatest thinkers if time, Kant, Plato, Epictetus, Epicurus, Hobbs, Socrates, and so on."



Many of those also had very unemotional views of life. I can see why they drew your attention. However, lack of emotion is a flaw, as we can see by observing serial killers, other sociopaths, and some other personality disorders. Without emotion, and the resulting empathy, people don't care about anyone but themselves. In other words, if it's pleasurable to them, it serves a valid purpose, no matter how it affects other people. That isn't an improvement.



"If I have one belief in this world it is that only humanity can save humanity."


Humanity is made up of individual people, and if individual people don't care about anyone except themselves, and view things that cause them pleasure as being ok despite how it affects other people, humanity will keep going downhill. Without emotion, things like family, marriage, and the like, the things that knit society together, cannot be sustained.



"People are migratind towards a degree of complex shallowness and venality that is truly staggering."


I'm not even going to comment on the audacity of you making that statement.

Sidhe



Skunks  Thursday Mar 4 10:33 PM

A few little things.

- The website cited earlier (twin-towers.net/muslims.htm) is bullshit propaganda. It takes a small handful of photos of things which exist in a completely accepted form in American society (children with toy guns pretending to kill each other or inanimate objects, e.g.) and comes to the conclusions that A) those photos are representative of every, or even a majority, of the members of a religion with over a billion (their own statistic) followers and B) that all of those people want to kill Americans. I seriously have to question the source of their translations.

It's this sort of fucked up misrepresentation of other cultures that leads to terrorism; you take a few provocative images, add some subtitles that tell you they're going to kill you for what you/they believe, and bam. Somebody's blowing somebody else up. Except, it's terrorism when the other guy does it.

Vicious cycle.

- Circumcision is a part of Islam. Same origin as in Judaism and Christianity: covenant between Abraham and God.

- Husayn, the younger son of Ali and Fatima, the Prophet Muhammad's daughter by his first wife, was killed by a the present Umayyid caliph circa October 680.

This event marked the split between the Shi'ite (literally, the "party of Ali", or something to that effect) Muslims and the Sunni muslims/Umayyid caliphate. There had been some disagreements before, because Ali got shafted out of being Caliph for a while. But once they killed the grandson of the Prophet, there wasn't any way to really reconcile things: the Umayyids were no longer just questionably okay, and instead were considered by Shi'ites to be a bunch of non-Muslims leading the rest of the Muslims.



lumberjim  Thursday Mar 4 11:16 PM

whoa.

sidhe,

what the..?

trying to compete with staceyv? you saw how much fun it has been for her, i presume. You sure you want to bring this online?



novice  Thursday Mar 4 11:53 PM

Spiritualism, theology, cultural differences and philosophy aside, what about the REAL danger of infection.
I've just recovered from a stapphlycoccal (Kiss my arse, spellcheck) infection and apparently it only needs a tiny break in the skin to enter. In 24 hrs it got in, swelled my foot to roughly double then spread up to my knee. Being navy I was seen immediately and hospitalised. 9 days later I was clean.
I've been to quite a few places in the middle East and my sweeping generalisation involves poor hygiene and a lousy medical infrastructure.
Rational thought aside, this ritual offends my sensibilities.



wolf  Friday Mar 5 02:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by glatt
It's another cuture. Try to keep an open mind.
Would this be the culture that also practices female genital mutlation?

Oh, just as an aside, it is unwise to anger one's gods.


wolf  Friday Mar 5 02:31 AM

Found an interesting (and brief) article on the Muslim perspective of circumcision.

I was actually looking to confirm at what age the procedure is performed ... the Jewish bris occurs 8 days following the birth of the child, US hospitals do the medical circumcisions shortly after delivery. I had thought that the Muslim rite was performed in early adolescence as part of the 'manhood' rituals. Guess Alec Hailey sold us all a bill of goods ... actually the age of circumcision does vary, but this guy indicates it's "within the early few years of age". I did see some statements from men who had it done around age 12-13. The practice is apparently optional for adult converts.



paranoid  Friday Mar 5 04:34 AM

1 second: I am slightly disturbed, because I am genetically programmed to like kids and care about them.
10 seconds: I read the explanation and realise that kids are apparently not suffereing too much.
15 seconds: I feel the urge to judge them, but quickly remember the idea of cross-cultural tolerance.
20 seconds: I compare this with other rituals, such as circumcision and come to a conclusion that this is not worse.
21 seconds: but it is just as bad. Being religious and irrational, this ritual is clearly very bad. Still, on the grand scale of things, USian president mentioning god in every speech is definitely much worse and much more dangerous.
25: I decide to no worry about this particular cult. There are too many things wrong on this planet (university students not knowing basic math is one of them) and I can't fix all of them immediately. People cutting the heads of their children will have to wait.



paranoid  Friday Mar 5 04:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shattered Soul
Well there you go. MY point was that you were making a sweeping accusation of silliness and stupidity of all those who DO believe in something that you do not believe in. Merely because you do not believe in it and cannot prove it does not make it silly or false.
Religion is more than that. If someone believes in something which is not proved, it's ok with me. If someone believes in something which I don't believe in, I am fine with that. But when someone believes in something which contradicts pretty much everything we know and is logically inconsistant, I think they are being silly and stupid.

I am comfortable with people believing that the Big Bang was caused by God, who stopped interfering later. But pretty much all modern religions include beliefs in supernatural stuff, which usually contradicts everything we know and love about this Universe.

In addition to that, science knows enough about religion to understand how it may have emerged and evolved. We can see how Islam and Christianity modified the myths of earlier religions, which in turn, were born out of very early myths.

So, to conclude:
1) religion contradicts reality
2) we understand how religion emerges and god has nothing to do with it
3) and an obvious additional point: there are thousands of religions, all contradicting each other. Simple logic dictates that the majority of them is wrong.


CzinZumerzet  Friday Mar 5 11:27 AM

Some people on this god forsaken planet are very different to others. DIFFERENT. JUST DIFFERENT. Some of you believe that being different to you, gives you the absolute right to blow them to pieces. God has nothing whatever to do with this. I know where my sympathy lies and it is not with mindless yes mindless killers. If the cap fits.



mrnoodle  Friday Mar 5 02:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by paranoid

So, to conclude:
1) religion contradicts reality
2) we understand how religion emerges and god has nothing to do with it
3) and an obvious additional point: there are thousands of religions, all contradicting each other. Simple logic dictates that the majority of them is wrong.
To reply:
1) Overly simplistic. Reality itself is subjective to the person experiencing the reality. Truth, on the other hand....

2) God has everything to do with it. Religion is man's attempt to understand God. While anthropologists might be able to come up with theories on the origin of religion, that doesn't mean that the origins themselves weren't divinely inspired. However,

3) is correct. If one of the religions is true, the rest must be false. Either that, or there is no God.

Sheesh, no wonder nobody gets along.

Myself, I think there's enough historical evidence for the prophecies in the Christian bible to lend credence to that religion. It holds up logically in theological debate as well, but no religion can be PROVEN true through debate. You just have to weigh the evidence and decide for yourself if something MIGHT be likely to be true. Weee


Troubleshooter  Friday Mar 5 03:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mrnoodle

To reply:
1) Overly simplistic. Reality itself is subjective to the person experiencing the reality. Truth, on the other hand....
Reality is not subjective. How that reality is defined is what is subjective. Rain falls, lightning crashes, and babies are born regardles of whether we choose to experience it or not.

And what about truth?

Quote:
Originally posted by mrnoodle

2) God has everything to do with it. Religion is man's attempt to understand God. While anthropologists might be able to come up with theories on the origin of religion, that doesn't mean that the origins themselves weren't divinely inspired.
Religion is man's attempt to rationalize an unknown and apparently uncaring world into sometheing where he has some control or consolation.

Religion is also a social control tool that came about in the place of government or to replace, resist, assist government

Quote:
Originally posted by mrnoodle

3) is correct. If one of the religions is true, the rest must be false. Either that, or there is no God.
There is no guarantee that any one of them is true.

Quote:
Originally posted by mrnoodle

Myself, I think there's enough historical evidence for the prophecies in the Christian bible to lend credence to that religion. It holds up logically in theological debate as well, but no religion can be PROVEN true through debate. You just have to weigh the evidence and decide for yourself if something MIGHT be likely to be true. Weee
If you think that what proof has been given is sufficient then more power to you, but if you dig a little deeper then you find that most of the myths of the bible are pulled from an earlier religion in the first place so wouldn't that then lend more credence to the earlier religions instead?


Troubleshooter  Friday Mar 5 03:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wolf


Would this be the culture that also practices female genital mutlation?

Oh, just as an aside, it is unwise to anger one's gods.
There are others that do it as well. I can't recall the various ones but there was a guy in New York who got busted for using scissors to saw his daughers labia off.


Lady Sidhe  Friday Mar 5 03:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lumberjim
whoa.

sidhe,

what the..?

trying to compete with staceyv? you saw how much fun it has been for her, i presume. You sure you want to bring this online?
I'm not bringing it online. I'm treating him the way he treats his wife and child. I can be as indifferent as he can, and I'm through being considerate when I get no consideration in return. And I'm through taking the blame.

I always supported him, right or wrong, because he was my husband, and because I love him, and that's what you do for people you love. Since he's decided that the love of his family comes last, and means nothing to him, why bother? He doesn't acknowledge it, and he pushes it away. So why defend someone who refuses to take responsibility for his family and would rather throw it away so that he can do his thing?

So from now on, I'm going to let you know when he's being a hypocrite. And he is being a hypocrite. He's spouting all of this lofty moral BS, and that's all it is to him. I really don't think, from what I've seen, that he believes in any kind of morality other than the situational kind. One set of rules applies to the world, and another set applies to him.

Sidhe


Lady Sidhe  Friday Mar 5 04:33 PM

You know what, everyone? I'm sorry. You're right. I shouldn't bring this online. I'm just so frustrated and hurt that I want everyone to know how he really is, as opposed to how he portrays himself. He's so worried about the image he puts forth to y'all that he's willing to hurt his wife to make it.

Don't get me wrong. He can be a good man...used to be a good man, back when he cared about other people. I don't know where that man went, though, and he won't let me talk to him.

If he has no regard for the feelings of others, then there's no reason anyone else should hold their tongue in regards to him. And I won't. I'm through putting his welfare above mine. I've done it for five years, only to get blamed for his indescretions.


Anyway...sorry. But I'm not going to let him get away with being a hypocrite.

Sidhe



lumberjim  Friday Mar 5 04:35 PM

ok, so you DO want to bring it online.


~~~fade in harps~~~~

And so begins another chapter of "As the Cellar Turns".



Lady Sidhe  Friday Mar 5 05:02 PM

Nope. I'm just not going to hold my tongue when he outright BS's people, like I used to.

No, actually, I'll just let him spout. Yeah, that's better...because I'll look bad no matter what I do. I seem to have earned a place as an idiot/drama queen, and the last thing I want to do is give anyone ammunition. His sarcastic comment against me had everyone cheering him on, so I know where I stand. Anything I say will be misconstrued as bitterness, so I'm better off just not saying anything.

But I must say, he's pretty popular for a man everyone was vilifying in "need advice."


I've tried to be nice, but it's hard to be nice when you're hurting.

Shutting up.


Sidhe



jaguar  Friday Mar 5 05:12 PM

oh FOR FUCKS SAKE.

Can we at least keep all these bloody personal spats in threads in the home forum so the rest of us can ignore them? It's like a bunch of white trash having a domestic in the middle of a supermarket.




oh and troubleshooter:

Quote:
Reality is not subjective. How that reality is defined is what is subjective. Rain falls, lightning crashes, and babies are born regardles of whether we choose to experience it or not.
i suggest a reading of Plato's cave.


Lady Sidhe  Friday Mar 5 05:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
oh FOR FUCKS SAKE.

Can we at least keep all these bloody personal spats in threads in the home forum so the rest of us can ignore them? It's like a bunch of white trash having a domestic in the middle of a supermarket.
Yes. I'm sorry. You're right. It's inappropriate, and I apologize to everyone. No more personals. I promise. Cross my heart.

Sidhe


jaguar  Friday Mar 5 05:23 PM

thankyou.



Troubleshooter  Friday Mar 5 05:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
oh and troubleshooter:

i suggest a reading of Plato's cave.
I have. It illustrates my point well. Everything that happens in that allegory points to the issue of interpretation, not reality itself. To us it was shadows on a wall, to them it was the totality of their experience. The one that got away learned that the shadows were just that and that there is a whole lot more out there if you are willing and/or able to encounter it.


jaguar  Friday Mar 5 06:10 PM

Quote:
Reality is not subjective. How that reality is defined is what is subjective. Rain falls, lightning crashes, and babies are born regardles of whether we choose to experience it or not.
My point was this plays both ways - we may experience it but it doesn't mean it does actually happen. Reality is subjective, it's subject to the limitations of our senses, all we have to work with is what we recieve in input, with no way of verifying that is in fact the 'truth'. Of course whether the truth is defined by what we see...


xoxoxoBruce  Friday Mar 5 07:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
But I must say, he's pretty popular for a man everyone was vilifying in "need advice."
Posting logical arguments (or even semi-logical), will draw people who agree and disagree. No popularity involved, just discussion (or argument ).
I may agree with someones stance today and disagree with them tomorrow, or even the next thread. There's no liking or disliking, because I don't know them. Even people that post a lot only show what they want to show of themselves.
You may think you know someone from gleaning posts and reading between the lines but how do you know the whole package isn't crafted. How would you know I'm really a cross eyed, midget, nun with 8 fingers on each hand, that tortures kittens and slaps babies, from my posts?


Lady Sidhe  Friday Mar 5 09:16 PM

Like I said, I was frustrated and stressed and I posted out of hand. All I can do is apologize.



Shattered Soul  Friday Mar 5 10:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Troubleshooter


I have. It illustrates my point well. Everything that happens in that allegory points to the issue of interpretation, not reality itself. To us it was shadows on a wall, to them it was the totality of their experience. The one that got away learned that the shadows were just that and that there is a whole lot more out there if you are willing and/or able to encounter it.

Something MADE those shadows, though, and while the shadows were not the totality of what was out there, they were made by something DID exist in reality.

Spirituality is like that...we can only see shadows. You're insisting that the shadow itself does not exist.

If I see a shadow of a flower, and believe that is the totality of the flower, I may not be entirely correct in that belief, but it doesn't mean that the flower doesn't exist. It merely means that I have not yet grasped the totality of the flower's existence, only a limited part.

It seems that you are comfortable only with what you can experience with your senses, and are thus closing yourself off to other experiences. It's your choice to do that. If contemplating something greater than yourself makes you uncomfortable, that's your issue. But others, INCLUDING Plato, DID believe in one or more gods, ie, a conscious creator, and merely because you can't prove it to your satisfaction does not mean that it does not exist, and doesn't mean that those who DO believe in such a being are being silly.


mrnoodle  Friday Mar 5 10:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Troubleshooter
Reality is not subjective. How that reality is defined is what is subjective. Rain falls, lightning crashes, and babies are born regardles of whether we choose to experience it or not.

And what about truth?
I think Jaguar actually covered this already, but the difference to me is that rain might be falling (truth), but if I'm unaware of it, it's not part of my reality.

Quote:
Originally posted by Troubleshooter
Religion is man's attempt to rationalize an unknown and apparently uncaring world into sometheing where he has some control or consolation.

Religion is also a social control tool that came about in the place of government or to replace, resist, assist government
It's becoming pure semantics now, but religion requires the God component. Your first definition could also be the definition for "sports betting" or "beer".

Religion as social control is a byproduct of religious people believing they possess ultimate truth as revealed to them via their religion. It's a chicken/egg thing I guess.

Quote:
Originally posted by TS
There is no guarantee that any one of them is true.(snip)...If you think that what proof has been given is sufficient then more power to you, but if you dig a little deeper then you find that most of the myths of the bible are pulled from an earlier religion in the first place so wouldn't that then lend more credence to the earlier religions instead?
I said 'if'. At any rate, the truth of something is not subject to any guarantee, warranty, or proof we assign to it. Without getting into some long epistemology discussion, it's a fairly recent arrogance on the part of science that restricts 'reality' or 'truth' to what is measurable by physicists or scientists.

As for older religions contributing to newer ones - of course they do. Our history wasn't erased when Jesus died, and the Christian religion was born. But Jesus was a historical figure, and the historical events surrounding his life and death did in fact fulfill Judaic prophesy. The fact that Zoroastrianism preceded either Christianity, Judaism, or Islam is irrelevant. Whether or not Eve ate a literal apple given to her by a literal snake is academic. What matters is that the consequences of that real or metaphoric event were answered, and the price paid, by the death of Christ.

This is the image of the day thread....I'll be over in philosophy if you want to continue (I sense rolled eyes from the people who came here to see nifty car wrecks and pet bison - I include myself in this group)


quzah  Saturday Mar 6 12:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by glatt
I would never do that to either of my young children. The images are distubing. I think it's crazy.
Have any boys? Circumcised? Barbaric or holy ritual?
[edit]Bah. Topic's already in this thread. Point still holds though.[/edit]

Quzah.


jaguar  Saturday Mar 6 03:04 AM

Quote:
If I see a shadow of a flower, and believe that is the totality of the flower, I may not be entirely correct in that belief, but it doesn't mean that the flower doesn't exist. It merely means that I have not yet grasped the totality of the flower's existence, only a limited part.
What if you're actually looking at the shadow of something entirely different that looks like the shadow of a flower. A tad tenuous to base your life around isn't it? Hey! That cloud looks like a flower.

In the end I'm with troubleshooter, I'm not going to base my life around shadows and ideas, while there is nothing solid I'll err on the side of caution and work with what I know, anything else is opening yourself up to irrational thought.

Quote:
It's becoming pure semantics now, but religion requires the God component. Your first definition could also be the definition for "sports betting" or "beer".
God is a little narrow. How about gods? spririts? fairies? small blue men? All religion requires is faith in something.

Glatt - no more crazy than half drowning your poor kid at only a few months old.


Shattered Soul  Saturday Mar 6 03:39 PM

Reply is in Philosophy



lumberjim  Saturday Mar 6 03:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lady Sidhe


Yes. I'm sorry. You're right. It's inappropriate, and I apologize to everyone. No more personals. I promise. Cross my heart.

Sidhe
hey , look, Hot_pastrami!...i think i may have prevented some drama pollution! you were right!


Troubleshooter  Saturday Mar 6 04:12 PM

Carryin' my ass to philosophy as well... (NT)

...



glatt  Monday Mar 8 09:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by quzah

Have any boys? Circumcised? Barbaric or holy ritual?
[edit]Bah. Topic's already in this thread. Point still holds though.[/edit]

Quzah.
Yeah, sure, my son is circumcised. You have a good point.

You will notice, that further down in my same post where I said that they are crazy, I suggested keeping an open mind about other cultures.

"Keeping an open mind" doesn't mean that you have to agree with them, it just means that you should give them a chance before you label them as strange and deserving to die.


Your reply here?

The Cellar Image of the Day is just a section of a larger web community: a bunch of interesting folks talking about everything. Add your two cents to IotD by joining the Cellar.