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   Undertoad  Thursday Mar 11 10:54 AM

3/11/2004: Terror in Madrid (warning, graphic)



IotD isn't really a news site per se but when lurker mundofer suggested I look at some slideshow images, it was obvious that this was more compelling than anything else today. This is Madrid where Basque separatists (it's believed as I write this) were responsible for a major terror attack.



You have a load of explosives and want to do maximum damage. You create several bombs and set them up in the spaces between the trains and set them off at the same time... at the peak of morning rush hour.

Well in this case it sounds like some of the bombs didn't go off, and so this horrendous massacre of terror was actually less than it might have been -- but still unthinkably horrible with, at this point, more than 180 dead.



And many, many more injured, and because IotD isn't the land of graphic for graphic's sake I've not picked out the dead body images for this post. They're easy to find if you follow the slideshow links, but for some reason, I find the shots of the injured to be just as mind-boggling. The uninjured helping the injred - someone just headed to work, obviously...



If they are survivors that is. One recurring theme in the slideshows is the mobile phone. What is he doing in this picture? Is he looking for someone to call? Is he trying to figure out the name of the person? Is he looking to call a family member? Calling emergency services?



Or maybe just checking the exact time life was completely changed. The injured are maybe more compelling than the dead; they still need help, they will live on.

Man's inhumanity to man: sadly, this is the worst of us.



Mundofer  Thursday Mar 11 11:11 AM

When we in spain had a "coup de etat" in february, 23, 1981. That night was called the "night of the radio" because everybody listen to the radio for news. Today is the "day of the mobile". Although the mobile networks are still congested, everybody is trying to use them: The family and friends trying to contact those who supposedly travelled in the train. Those that were in the train calling their families to tell them that their are alive...
Two notes:
There are more than 900 wounder (many in critical condition)
To understant this thing you must know that next sunday (march, 14) we have elections to the national parliament, so this killings are created to break into our democratic system.

(sorry for my bad english)



mrnoodle  Thursday Mar 11 11:27 AM

Whenever I see something like this I become more and more certain that a terrorist's motives have nothing to do with a "cause."

These are thugs that enjoy killing and maiming. Any higher brain function is only incidental. And when your terrorists come from within your own country, it must be twice as devestating. We in America have the luxury of being able to "profile" the terrorists that want us dead. Our local loonies aren't well-organized enough to pull this kind of thing off. I'm sorry for your country, Mundofer



Mundofer  Thursday Mar 11 11:34 AM

It can happen anywher, anyone

Quote:
Originally posted by mrnoodle
We in America have the luxury of being able to "profile" the terrorists that want us dead. Our local loonies aren't well-organized enough to pull this kind of thing off. I'm sorry for your country, Mundofer
Are you sure? Remember the Oklahoma building. Nasty things happen in unexpected ways to unexpected people.


glatt  Thursday Mar 11 01:22 PM

I think terrorists usually start out with a cause, but their hatred starts to cloud their thinking. If they were able to think clearly, they would realize that attacks like this hurt their cause. There are other ways to draw attention to your "plight," whatever it is.

While I might have been willing to listen to their ideas before, I am deaf to them now. Stupid terrorists.



Happy Monkey  Thursday Mar 11 01:37 PM

Well funded terrorists, with or without a heartfelt cause, will attract violence-loving thugs.



mutating string  Thursday Mar 11 01:42 PM

I think those who are ready to blow themselves up do have a cause. Even if it seems unclear and clouded to us



jaguar  Thursday Mar 11 01:51 PM

Al queda at least seem to have some logic to their motives (twisted as it may be). ETA are just fucking stupid. Firstly, basque already has signifigant autonomy. Secondly they cannot be fucking stupid enough to think this was going to cause anything but one severe assfucking by every intel service and policing authority. Like seriously - 'lets blow up commuter trains! that'll win their hearts and minds...'. Fuckers.



dar512  Thursday Mar 11 03:56 PM

Might not be the basques. AP says

Quote:
The Arabic newspaper Al-Quds al-Arabi said later Thursday it had received a claim of responsibility issued in the name of al-Qaida.

The government initially blamed Basque separatists for the worst terrorist strike in Spanish history. But the interior minister said other lines of investigation were opened after police found a van Thursday with detonators and an audiotape of Quranic verses near where the bombed trains originated.



Leah  Thursday Mar 11 04:32 PM

Someone needs to blow those Al Queda fuckers out of this world. Get rid of them all (even their families) and this world would be a much better place.



glatt  Thursday Mar 11 04:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Leah
Someone needs to blow those Al Queda fuckers out of this world. Get rid of them all (even their families) and this world would be a much better place.
Thanks, Leah, for showing us all what it looks like inside the mind of a terrorist.


Pi  Thursday Mar 11 05:05 PM

Right Glatt... Being radical and brutal to others isn't the solution (doin' nothing either, but well...).
We discussed the matter at the academy today and most of us were thinking that it's some kind of revenge because Spain participated activly in Afghanistan and Iraq....



xoxoxoBruce  Thursday Mar 11 05:57 PM

What strikes me most, is the faces of the people who were not injured. Confusion, not knowing what to do, not knowing how to help. Anticipation, what's going to happen next, when and where?
They look like New yorkers looked, 2 1/2 years ago.



Uryoces  Thursday Mar 11 07:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Leah
Someone needs to blow those Al Queda fuckers out of this world. Get rid of them all (even their families) and this world would be a much better place.
That is the problem, in a nutshell. Blowing the Al Queda fuckers' families away to be more precise. It simply provides more fuel for their pretzel interpretation of Islam.

The difference between you, Leah and a terrorist is that this is the way you feel versus what you would act on. The terrorists have no qualms about acting on those feelings. I would lie if I didn't want to see every every arabic and persian capital city disappear under a mushroom cloud on the afternoon of September 11, 2001. I realized this wasn't a very productive line of thought, and mostly got over it. I imagine that Spanish and American intelligence will find the culprits within a few weeks, and there will be arrest, trials, jailtime, and possibly executions, though I am no expert on Spanish law and capital punishment.


Torrere  Thursday Mar 11 08:11 PM

Soooo.... how long will it take for Madrid to get Googlebombed?

I remember that Spain joined America in the war on Iraq with some 96% of it's population in opposition to the war. This attack has to have a political aim -- I wonder if it is supposed to turn the Spanish people against the leadership who 'brought this tragedy upon them'.



wolf  Thursday Mar 11 08:45 PM

A newstory that I read this morning indicated that one of the most haunting aspects of the scene were the cellphones of the dead ringing and ringing ... that's probably why there are many photos of people checking phones.

I have heard similar statements from EMTs and Firefighters at accident scenes with fatalities ... the cell phones ring, and there is no one left to answer them. It's a stark reminder for the EMS professionals that the individual they are "holding the tarp" for has someone, somewhere who is still expecting them to come home.



Troubleshooter  Thursday Mar 11 09:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Uryoces
That is the problem, in a nutshell. Blowing the Al Queda fuckers' families away to be more precise. It simply provides more fuel for their pretzel interpretation of Islam.

The difference between you, Leah and a terrorist is that this is the way you feel versus what you would act on. The terrorists have no qualms about acting on those feelings. I would lie if I didn't want to see every every arabic and persian capital city disappear under a mushroom cloud on the afternoon of September 11, 2001. I realized this wasn't a very productive line of thought, and mostly got over it. I imagine that Spanish and American intelligence will find the culprits within a few weeks, and there will be arrest, trials, jailtime, and possibly executions, though I am no expert on Spanish law and capital punishment.
The problem with your reasoning is that a thorough job of genocide WOULD solve the problem. That problem at least.

The other side of the coin is that a thorough job wouldn't be done.


xoxoxoBruce  Thursday Mar 11 11:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Uryoces
The difference between you, Leah and a terrorist is that this is the way you feel versus what you would act on.
How do you know she's not a natural born killer?


mrnoodle  Friday Mar 12 12:07 AM

The thing is, when They(tm) do something like this, you are almost justified in turning an entire time zone into molten glass, if only to prevent it from happening again. Almost.

Just ask any Israeli. Or Palestinian.

Civilization hasn't taken over Antarctica yet, has it? I think I'll relocate.



mutating string  Friday Mar 12 12:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by glatt


Thanks, Leah, for showing us all what it looks like inside the mind of a terrorist.
If we aspire to be "better", we're doomed, sorry to say. Be quick or be dead, the choice is yours (that includes families - ours or theirs. Feel free to call me names, but I choose my family to live )


Olikat  Friday Mar 12 12:45 AM

Que Triste

Quote:
Originally posted by dar512
Might not be the basques. AP says
I'm wondering if the ETA isn't trying to make it look like al-Qaida. I'm also wondering if the backpacks were planted or if there were suicide bombers. They said the explossives are the same that the ETA usually uses. But then again Spain DID heartily support the US in our "War against terrorism". Hopefully those responsible will be found.

In the mean time I hope ample medical and psychological support is provided to those in need.

lo siento mucho




elSicomoro  Friday Mar 12 12:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mutating string
Feel free to call me names, but I choose my family to live
In the grand scheme of things, I say, "No you don't." You and your family could die in your sleep tonight due to CO poisoning. Or you could win the lottery tomorrow. We can only make decisions and support decisions that we think are best for us. But in the end, life is a game of craps.


Mundofer  Friday Mar 12 01:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Uryoces
I imagine that Spanish and American intelligence will find the culprits within a few weeks, and there will be arrest, trials, jailtime, and possibly executions, though I am no expert on Spanish law and capital punishment.
There is no capital punishment in Spain (not in any country of the European Community) and I'm happy about that, even in this situation.
Regarding the political effects of this terrorist act, It depends of who did it. If it was ETA, this will bring support for the actual government (right winged) that has a hard position against any basque political party (even those that are pacific), but if it was islamic, it will bring support to the opposition (left winged) that had a strong opposition against spanish intervention in the iraqui war.


Uryoces  Friday Mar 12 04:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Troubleshooter


The problem with your reasoning is that a thorough job of genocide WOULD solve the problem. That problem at least.

The other side of the coin is that a thorough job wouldn't be done.
I would most definitely like to call whatever group or people the terrorists come from friends, and more precisely that they would not be terrorists.

Genocide is a very, very naughty thing, and not at all friendly.


Happy Monkey  Friday Mar 12 06:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Troubleshooter
The problem with your reasoning is that a thorough job of genocide WOULD solve the problem. That problem at least.
If we define "thorough" as including everyone who would want to retaliate against us once we started, it would have to include all moral people.


CharlieG  Friday Mar 12 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wolf
A newstory that I read this morning indicated that one of the most haunting aspects of the scene were the cellphones of the dead ringing and ringing ......snip...
According to friends who worked at Ground Zero, for days afterwards, you'd hear cell phones ring in the pile. The knew the same thing - someone trying to get in touch with a lost loved one


Troubleshooter  Friday Mar 12 11:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Uryoces
I would most definitely like to call whatever group or people the terrorists come from friends, and more precisely that they would not be terrorists.

Genocide is a very, very naughty thing, and not at all friendly.
War has settled more arguments, more thoroughly than ANY other option, sad to say. But somethimes it is the ONLY option.

I don't want to be their friend, I just want to not be bombed again.

Did America (or Spain) deserve it? No.

Has America done things that would make people want to do it? Yes.

Regardless of what America has done though, immediate, thorough, precise and well documented elimination of the threat posed is the order of the day.

Not what is going on now.


Troubleshooter  Friday Mar 12 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Happy Monkey
If we define "thorough" as including everyone who would want to retaliate against us once we started, it would have to include all moral people.
How so?

Define which morality.


Happy Monkey  Friday Mar 12 12:14 PM

The morality that says genocide is evil. I'm sure you can find people who don't agree, but that's universal enough that I feel no need to defend it.



Troubleshooter  Friday Mar 12 01:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Happy Monkey
The morality that says genocide is evil. I'm sure you can find people who don't agree, but that's universal enough that I feel no need to defend it.
That's the funny thing about universality. It's only universal if EVERYONE agrees.


glatt  Friday Mar 12 02:43 PM

universal enough



Troubleshooter  Friday Mar 12 04:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by glatt
universal enough
There is no sliding scale on universality. Either it is or it isn't. If you say it is, then you have invalidated your own statement, or need to argue it more thoroughly. If it isn't then you need to reassess your position.


mutating string  Friday Mar 12 08:14 PM

Quote:
In the grand scheme of things, I say, "No you don't."
I was talking about the somewhat smaller scheme of things. I would choose to protect my loved ones even if it meant killing terrorists' families, as someone said earlier. Too bad someone always has to die. But since we all just can't get along, I'd rather see my enemies' seed wiped out from the face of the earth. Sorry


quzah  Saturday Mar 13 09:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Uryoces
The difference between you, Leah and a terrorist is that this is the way you feel versus what you would act on. The terrorists have no qualms about acting on those feelings.
So what is the difference between a terrorist, who does what they do out of strong conviction, and a soldier, who does what they do out of "pride in their country" or "sense of duity" or just for the pay check? One is "right" because they believe their government is right, and the other is wrong because... why again? Oh, because you believe they are. I got it now.

Quzah.


Elspode  Saturday Mar 13 10:18 AM

I think we should just be nice to all the terrorists so they'll stop being so mean and stuff. Maybe buy them a Coke or something.



xoxoxoBruce  Saturday Mar 13 10:26 AM

Maestro, if you please,...I'd like to teach the world to sing......



quzah  Saturday Mar 13 09:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Elspode
I think we should just be nice to all the terrorists so they'll stop being so mean and stuff. Maybe buy them a Coke or something.
Is terror really all that different than "shock and awe"? I suppose it is, because one is "good" and the other is "bad".

Quzah.


Elspode  Saturday Mar 13 10:08 PM

No, it is no different at all. So I guess we *are* at war, then? Now all we have to figure out is who started it, right?



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Mar 14 12:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Elspode
No, it is no different at all. So I guess we *are* at war, then? Now all we have to figure out is who started it, right?
I'm more concerned with the end than the beginning.


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