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   Undertoad  Saturday Mar 13 01:04 AM

3/13/2004: Madrid terrorism protest



And so millions of people in Madrid go to the streets in grief and anger in a massive protest against terrorism.

Reuters story



xoxoxoBruce  Saturday Mar 13 01:18 AM

My God, think of the damage a couple of suicide bombers or a poison gas cloud could do, to that crowd.



CzinZumerzet  Saturday Mar 13 06:29 AM

I imagine they have all thought of that and it didn't stop them turning out.

Those of us who lived or worked in London throughout thirty years of bombing by Irish and other terrorists continued every day in the knowledge that the next one might have our name on it. This is a wonderful pictorial record of the courage and steadfastness of people hurt and angered by the cowardice of the bomb planters, my heart and solidarity goes straight to them.



Griff  Saturday Mar 13 07:50 AM

That is an interesting reaction, especially considering how we Americans cowered in our houses after 9-11.



Mundofer  Saturday Mar 13 08:50 AM

Just to let you know that this have been the biggest protest ever in Spain. In Madrid (population 4 million) there was an estimation of 2,3 million. And the same in all cities in Spain.



quzah  Saturday Mar 13 09:39 AM

Imagine losing a contact...

Quzah.



wolf  Saturday Mar 13 09:41 AM

Q, you have proven several times today (this and the lame suicide bomber conversation ... left a nasty stain on the carpet!!) that you are indeed funny.



xoxoxoBruce  Saturday Mar 13 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Griff
That is an interesting reaction, especially considering how we Americans cowered in our houses after 9-11.
We did?


ndetroit  Saturday Mar 13 01:59 PM

No, I'm pretty sure the americans didn't cower in their houses.... In fact, if memory serves me correctly, they sent out a good whack of their population half way around the world to try and meet the threat head-on...

was it the right thing to do? ... were they successful? ...

history will be the judge, I suppose...



Griff  Saturday Mar 13 02:05 PM

I could have chosen my words better there, but I don't recall 2.3 million New Yorkers getting together immediately after the mass murder. I recall all our media looking to our political leaders to tell us what to do instead asking us to look into ourselves. I never really thought about 9-11 as a media driven mass culture event before so I'm just thinking out loud here.



ndetroit  Saturday Mar 13 07:40 PM

hah, fair enough.. I don't even live in america, but let me tell you: I was cowering plenty...

the thing about 9/11 that kind of makes it different than other the other terrorist attacks, for me at least, is that you had multiple things going on in a very short span of time...

the first plane into the tower... people were like "wow, that's a hell of an accident"... but then the next one hit, and people were like "Jesus, what's going on?" ... and then the next plane hit the pentagon, and people were really starting to panic.. and the the tower fell, and people were positive the world was going to end.. and there was still the plane in pennsylvania that those brave dudes managed to stop.. bound for the whitehouse I guess...

but the the point is that people started to think "holy shit.. what's next?" ... I mean, they destroyed the twin towers with airplanes!!! that's INSANE! .. These dudes are CRAZY... they could pretty much do ANYTHING after this...

so yeah... I think people were justified in being paranoid...

it would have been nice if they'd protested I guess... but ... what are they protesting? terrorism ? .... I'm not sure that's very effective.. .. I mean, you don't see a lot of pro-terrorism rallies... .. .... I'm not sure that they're getting their message to the right people by just having a protest..



quzah  Saturday Mar 13 08:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ndetroit
... and then the next plane hit the pentagon, and people were really starting to panic..
You mean when the missile hit the pentagon...

Quzah.


Undertoad  Saturday Mar 13 09:32 PM

i see stupid people



quzah  Saturday Mar 13 09:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
i see stupid people
Show me a picture with:
1) Plane wreckage.
2) Scattered luggage and the like.
3) Bodies.

Explain why in the very first released photos, the grass is all there, but for some reason, they bulldoze it all away. And again, there is no wreckage at all anywhere. Compare this to the wreckage of any other aircraft you picture you'll ever see. There is no luggage; no bodies were ever recovered from this "crash". Where'd they go?

Quzah.


Elspode  Saturday Mar 13 10:07 PM

I'm gonna need to put on my tinfoil hat before I start doing the research on this, though.



Elspode  Sunday Mar 14 01:25 AM

I'm sure you've looked around, but this certainly shows some debris. Probably a really convincing job of Photoshopping, though. Big cover up and all.



quzah  Sunday Mar 14 01:46 AM

So there was one engine and a landing gear? Where's the rest of the plane? This wasn't supposedly some tiny cesna. It's a fucking jet. Ok, so there's a handful of scrap metal. Where are the bodies? None were ever recovered.

...This post is a work in progress...

Someone's rant on the explosion at the time of occurance is here. Notice the grass in the bottom pictures. More photos.

Yet more. Interesting to note that in these photos, or a number of them, they seem to indicate that the aircraft should be mainly outside of the pentagon, not inside. In either case, the wings themselves should have done more damage than they supposedly did, since they store all the fuel. And as we know, that fuel is potent enough to take down a steel tower...

Here is a tinfoil hat site that shows a decent summary of pictures. Again, note no wing impacts in the close up pictures.

Anyway... Way to Hijack a thread eh? Ehehe.

Quzah.



Elspode  Sunday Mar 14 01:53 AM

A plane full of fuel flying at 250 mph and crashing into a reinforced concrete building (several walls worth of reinforced concrete, as well as supporting columns) is going to essentially vaporize. A great deal of the resulting shredded aluminum will burn completely in the subsequent fire (I have burned beer cans in campfires before, so I know this can be done). Other sites clearly show a landing gear, wheel, turbofan parts, tire tread, primered metal known to match the aircraft type, etc, etc.

Also, a hell of a lot of witnesses saw it happen. Pretty hard to confuse a commercial airliner with anything else.

I like the theory I saw on one site, though. That the government planted the "no plane" conspiracy theory so they could then discredit it, making those who adhered to it look like loonies.

Occam's Razor should apply here, at least. We *saw* two planes crash into the WTC towers. We saw the wreckage of a third in a field on the same day. Why should we doubt that this was just another plane? What about all the relatives of the dead who put their loved ones on the plane that morning and drove off? The plane and their families went *somewhere*, never to return...



Undertoad  Sunday Mar 14 08:41 AM

All this shit was started by a French book that came out in 2002. It was thoroughly debunked. If you start to believe in this kind of thing you should start questionning your sources harder. There is a ton of evidence in one direction and only a few stupid questions in the other. Like spode said, Occam applies here. Everyone is trying to introduce noise into your belief system. Don't help them.



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Mar 14 09:05 AM

The real plane and passengers are hidden in the studio where then filmed the moon landings.



elSicomoro  Sunday Mar 14 09:42 AM

I'm going to file this alongside "The Holocaust never happened" and "The moon landing was faked by Hollywood."



Undertoad  Sunday Mar 14 11:28 AM

Here's the Snopes page on this item btw.



quzah  Sunday Mar 14 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Elspode
Also, a hell of a lot of witnesses saw it happen. Pretty hard to confuse a commercial airliner with anything else.

I like the theory I saw on one site, though. That the government planted the "no plane" conspiracy theory so they could then discredit it, making those who adhered to it look like loonies.

Occam's Razor should apply here, at least. We *saw* two planes crash into the WTC towers. We saw the wreckage of a third in a field on the same day. Why should we doubt that this was just another plane? What about all the relatives of the dead who put their loved ones on the plane that morning and drove off? The plane and their families went *somewhere*, never to return...
Few items:

A hell of a lot of people didn't "see" it happen. Those that did seem to have different flight paths for the jet.

The FBI apparently seized every shred of video evidence of the actual crash itself. Compared to the towers, which were replayed over and over and over.

Why should you doubt this was another plane? That's a great sentence. I'll leave it at th[^***#$
NO CARRIER
***FILE PURGE ACTIVATED
...............................................................................
....................................................................
...............................................................
OK.
]


Elspode  Sunday Mar 14 01:46 PM

Well, I know that you and I didn't see it happen...but I'm still going with the least complex theory until someone gives me an explanation of why we would kill our own people and endanger our own military HQ. Wait, let rephrase that. I'll need an explanation from someone who hasn't been off their meds for awhile.

Our government can't even keep the fucking highways paved. I don't think they could make a conspiracy this large and keep it secret. Clinton couldn't even keep getting his knob polished by his intern a secret, after all.



OnyxCougar  Sunday Mar 14 01:47 PM

Reports that the WTC did not collapse because of damage caused by the planes, but because Silverstein and FDNY decided to set off the charges that were built into the buildings and "pull them" down before they fell down.

Streaming footage.
Link Here



OnyxCougar  Sunday Mar 14 03:02 PM

This is a HELL of a page about the Warren Commission's coverup about the Kennedy Assasination.

I'm finding all this stuff linked off other Conspiracy Theory sites. It's really interesting.



ndetroit  Sunday Mar 14 07:10 PM

I remember watching TV on sept 11, and there were all kinds of reports about a "5th plane" ... and then all of a sudden you just heard NOTHING about it... they didn't even make a retraction, like "Oh, we're getting reports now that the 5th plane we mentioned was fine", or whatever.

I think it was somewhere near denver, or it had departed from denver, or something like that..

And you never hear anyone mention it.

Just sloppy reporting?



OnyxCougar  Sunday Mar 14 07:15 PM

I also heard CNN say it was a truck bomb that hit the pentagon. Then they said it was a plane. How do you get truck bomb from a 757?



Elspode  Sunday Mar 14 07:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ndetroit
I remember watching TV on sept 11, and there were all kinds of reports about a "5th plane" ... and then all of a sudden you just heard NOTHING about it... they didn't even make a retraction, like "Oh, we're getting reports now that the 5th plane we mentioned was fine", or whatever.

I think it was somewhere near denver, or it had departed from denver, or something like that..

And you never hear anyone mention it.

Just sloppy reporting?
Maybe they actually flew *two* planes into the Pentagon!


elSicomoro  Sunday Mar 14 07:43 PM

I distinctly remember hearing that one plane was shot down by the Air Force, and that a bomb went off at the State Dept. that morning...I still have a copy of the Philadelphia Inquirer that shows the latter.

It isn't the first time the media has fucked up...won't be the last.

(EDIT: Sorry...I initially posted this about 20 minutes before the time listed to the left...was checking to see if I was still having a problem with deleting posts. No problem here or in Jimbo's forum, but I definitely can't delete posts in Politics and Current Events.)



funkykule  Monday Mar 15 04:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Elspode


Our government can't even keep the fucking highways paved. I don't think they could make a conspiracy this large and keep it secret.
I find it very hard to believe that you really think that. I'n one way I'm jealous of your sense of security and your ability to trust that everything in your government is so..well innocent.
On the otherhand wake up and smell the coffee. Your roads arent up to scratch probably because your country's government are after spending more on war than any other presidency except for Lyndon Johnson, and wasn't that because he was over the Vietnam war? What do you think the CIA and the FBI spend their days doing?


CharlieG  Monday Mar 15 11:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Griff
That is an interesting reaction, especially considering how we Americans cowered in our houses after 9-11.
What do you mean WE? I was busy, VERY VERY busy post 9/11 - it didn't stop me, and I LIVE in NYC


CharlieG  Monday Mar 15 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore

It isn't the first time the media has fucked up...won't be the last.

Your right - first the disclaimer - I work for one of the major media outfits, and in particular, on the morning of 9/11 I was working on the software that takes all the news wires into our company, and puts it into a database

Yep, there were reposts of a truck bomb on the mall. Eventually, it turned out to be nothing, so the news guys just moved on without saying anything (TOO much going on)

I've talked with the "old timers" here - it was the most confused day they ever saw.

Couple that with the fact that all the major NYC based networks lost their AP wire feed when the first building came down, it caused some crazyness. APs NYC office was in 1 World Financial Center if I remember right, but anyway, either in WTC or across the street in one of the buildings that got pretty well trashed, and ALL the phone lines in that area went through the WTC basement

One of those "funny in the aftermath" stories. The 1st building comes down, and about 5 minutes later, we get a phone call from the news room "The AP NYC feed is down, and we're on DC backup - You have to fix the feed" We just told the caller "APs NY datalines went through the WTC - that feed isn't coming back anytime soon" The caller KNEW that, but had not even stopped to THINK about it


ladysycamore  Monday Mar 15 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sycamore
I'm going to file this alongside "The Holocaust never happened" and "The moon landing was faked by Hollywood."
And don't forget: Hoffa, Elvis, TuPac and Biggie Smalls are in the secret basement of the Pentagon playing cards and drinking 40s.


quzah  Monday Mar 15 01:04 PM

Where's the black box?

Quzah.



Kitsune  Monday Mar 15 03:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by quzah
Where's the black box?
In the hands of the NTSB, maybe?

Both black boxes from the hijacked aircraft which crashed into the Pentagon have also been recovered and turned over to the Federal Aviation Administration.


Beestie  Monday Mar 15 03:15 PM

Quote:
Where's the black box?
Pssssssssssst. Its been teleported to Area 51. Quiet, they're watching... always watching... listening and watching...


dar512  Monday Mar 15 03:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by quzah
Where's the black box?

Quzah.
Top people are looking in to it. Top people.


dar512  Monday Mar 15 03:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
i see stupid people
My first reaction was to laugh.

Then I thought what a true curse it would be if you were bothered by stupid people wanting help all day.

Then I thought, "Dang. That actually describes some people's jobs."


OnyxCougar  Tuesday Mar 16 10:59 AM

***raises her hand***



Troubleshooter  Tuesday Mar 16 11:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
***raises her hand***
Me too. Twice...


Double T  Tuesday Mar 16 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ndetroit


so yeah... I think people were justified in being paranoid...

it would have been nice if they'd protested I guess... but ... what are they protesting? terrorism ? .... I'm not sure that's very effective.. .. I mean, you don't see a lot of pro-terrorism rallies... .. .... I'm not sure that they're getting their message to the right people by just having a protest..
I'm also pretty sure the city was in a lock down status, if there was no reason for you to be out of your home, you didnt leave. Thousands of New Yorkers protesting after a vital part of the city was demolished would only create even MORE confusion/chaos/problems


glatt  Tuesday Mar 16 01:00 PM

Yep, parts were blocked off for sure.



mitheral  Tuesday Mar 16 02:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Elspode
Well, I know that you and I didn't see it happen...but I'm still going with the least complex theory until someone gives me an explanation of why we would kill our own people and endanger our own military HQ. [...]
And incompently at that. You'd figure if the goverment wanted to take out part of the pentagon they would have targeted the section that hadn't been reinforced yet.


CharlieG  Tuesday Mar 16 02:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Double T


I'm also pretty sure the city was in a lock down status, if there was no reason for you to be out of your home, you didnt leave. Thousands of New Yorkers protesting after a vital part of the city was demolished would only create even MORE confusion/chaos/problems
The ONLY parts of NYC that were locked down was Manhattan below Canal

I _HATE_ when people forget that NYC is actually made up of 5 counties, and is QUITE large

There is

NY County - aka Manhattan + some small islands, and a couple of blocks on the mainland (a canal was moved - don't ask)

Bronx County - "the Bronx" - the only part of NYC on the mainland - all others are on islands (except for those few blocks)

Richmond County - aka Staten Island - NYCs most rural county

Kings County - aka Brooklyn - This is actually on "Long Island".

Queens County - aka Queens - again, on Long Island

When folks say "NYC", they are usually thinking "Manhattan", which is actually the smallest part of NYC by FAR (smallest county in the USA at 22 square miles)

If your in Manhattan, and someone says, they are going to "Long Island" - they usually mean Nassau or Suffolk, which are the 2 NON NYC counties on LI

If your on Long Island, and your going to Manhattan, your going to "the City" - Brooklyn and Queens are "forgotten"

NYC Government is VERY Manhattan centric - One of the past Mayors coined the term "Outer Boroughs" for the other 4 Boroughs of NYC, nad he would say it with distain

BTW A GREAT web site for NYC stuff
Forgotten NY


mitheral  Tuesday Mar 16 02:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dar512


Then I thought, "Dang. That actually describes some people's jobs."
Yep.


Uryoces  Tuesday Mar 16 03:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by funkykule


I find it very hard to believe that you really think that. I'n one way I'm jealous of your sense of security and your ability to trust that everything in your government is so..well innocent.
On the otherhand wake up and smell the coffee. Your roads arent up to scratch probably because your country's government are after spending more on war than any other presidency except for Lyndon Johnson, and wasn't that because he was over the Vietnam war? What do you think the CIA and the FBI spend their days doing?
The US government is large and beauracratic, but good or evil are two things I would not attribute to it. It will do what it needs to keep the country running, and not much more. For better or worse I think the sense of security comes from the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, and the carrier battle groups the US is more than will to use that ply them. The 9/11 terrorist attacks were a fluke due to disintegrating relations between the FBI and the CIA.

So I would expand the saying to include the following: "Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity or inertia."

Plus you're preaching to the choir if you're telling 'Spode to not trust in the US government.


funkykule  Wednesday Mar 17 06:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Uryoces
The US government is large and beauracratic, but good or evil are two things I would not attribute to it. It will do what it needs to keep the country running, and not much more. For better or worse I think the sense of security comes from the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, and the carrier battle groups the US is more than will to use that ply them. The 9/11 terrorist attacks were a fluke due to disintegrating relations between the FBI and the CIA.

So I would expand the saying to include the following: "Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity or inertia."

Plus you're preaching to the choir if you're telling 'Spode to not trust in the US government.
I'm not trying to tar the whole govt. with the same brush by saying it is either good or evil. I'd like to think most of us are intrinsically good, but due to the basic fact that it is run by humans (and... wait for it....they're not perfect!), the actions taken by the govt. are subject to error. The margin of error is the 'Evil' i'm talking about.
Also I don't think you're giving the poeple who run your country(I don't mean Dubya or his cronies) the credit they deserve. They may not be taking the high road at the moment but jeez louise I don't think stupidity or inertia got the US to become a superpower. I hate to say it but someone has to be doing something right over there because you basically control the world's economy!
I think you took my sense of security comment in the wrong context. I didn't mean defense against attack from outside forces, I meant the security in believing that your govt. is working for your benifit without jeopardising the freedom and/or lives of other nations.


Undertoad  Wednesday Mar 17 08:15 AM

So if 9/11 was a fluke, what was the 1993 WTC bombing?



blue58  Wednesday Mar 17 08:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by quzah
Imagine losing a contact...

Quzah.
OK, now THAT was funny.

Don't believe too much in the many conspiracy theories, but This thread about people in one of the towers is one of the most fascinating I've read.


OnyxCougar  Wednesday Mar 17 10:33 AM

Oh. My. God.

From reading that forum and links I found a site with pictures of people who jumped from the towers.

I cannot imagine having to make that choice. Beware. Disturbing.



wolf  Wednesday Mar 17 10:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
So if 9/11 was a fluke, what was the 1993 WTC bombing?
There wasn't any parking left under the building they actually wanted to blow up ... that's why the towers didn't fall on that attempt. They only had enough explosives for the Chrysler building in the van that first time.


blue58  Wednesday Mar 17 10:48 AM

Just a quick disclaimer, the purpose of that link was to see some fascinating pictures of a close up shot of one of the towers, and the debate about what is there or not there.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no jumper pics in the actual thread itself.....I know at would be very disturbing for some. Although the pictures there aren't real graphic, they can be disturbing.



OnyxCougar  Wednesday Mar 17 10:55 AM

Oh..yeah, I hope I was clear the the jumper pics were not on the forum itself, but link from a link.



wolf  Wednesday Mar 17 11:04 AM

I've seen the jumper pics many, many times.

What was more disturbing was watching the documentary 9-11-01 that was made by that french film crew ... during one of the segments filmed in the Battallion Command Post in the South Tower Lobby, you could hear the sound of the bodies hitting the ground (the narration including the explanation of the noise, that it wasn't just falling debris). That's chilling.



Undertoad  Wednesday Mar 17 11:10 AM

No wolf, I mean, were the CIA and FBI playing games when that one happened?



Happy Monkey  Wednesday Mar 17 11:19 AM

Not to derail this back to the topic of Spain, but here's an article on why they voted the Popular Party out.

NYTimes Link (reg req'd)



glatt  Wednesday Mar 17 12:27 PM

OK, by my count, that's the 3rd country.

1) Pakistan held local elections shortly after the Afghan war in which many local pro-taliban leaders were elected as a direct result of that country's pro-US stance.

2) In South Korea, the winner of that election won based almost entirely on an anti-Bush platform.

3) Now Spain is the third country to toss out its leaders because they were in bed with Bush.

The British aren't too happy with Blair, but the US is having the next election, so we'll see who's next.



Undertoad  Wednesday Mar 17 12:54 PM

Germany was in there: Schroeder rode in on anti-US sentiment.

I'd say to be careful about whether it's anti-Bush or anti-US.



Happy Monkey  Wednesday Mar 17 01:28 PM

It's anti-Bush. The sentiment was primarily pro-US in Europe in the timeframe between 9-11 and Bush's Iraq adventure. And even before 9-11, the sentiment was much more pro-US than it is now. And even more so again when Clinton was in office.

That's not to say that we were loved, but Bush has been a massive wedge in all of the cracks between the US and the rest of the world.



Undertoad  Wednesday Mar 17 01:41 PM

When would you say it turned, exactly? When the UN passed 1441, or when the first bombs fell?



Happy Monkey  Wednesday Mar 17 03:56 PM

I'd say it started turning the second Bush started talking about Iraq, and each subsequent step (pushing the resolutions, badmouthing the inspectors, censoring Iraq's response document before distribution, kicking out the inspectors, lying in the SOTU, starting the Iraq war, setting up the "Coalition of the Willing", Freedom Fries, etc) made it worse, even in the so-called "willing" countries.

Bush also created some ill will in the Afghanistan war with the secret indefinate detentions, but Iraq was the primary force.



Elspode  Wednesday Mar 17 04:15 PM

Referring to my perceived Pollyanna attitude toward my government...I don't have one. I just don't think that the bumbling juggernaut that is the US Federal Governement could ever hope to keep such a large conspiracy secret. They aren't that competent.



xoxoxoBruce  Wednesday Mar 17 08:13 PM

I'll second that, Els.



Uryoces  Thursday Mar 18 03:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
So if 9/11 was a fluke, what was the 1993 WTC bombing?
I like to have informational links, but I believe that was due to a huge intentional blind spot in our intelligence gathering apparatus called Saudi Arabia. It's been the policy of the US government to gather no intelligence about Saudi Arabia, and that's where the attacks came from -- though not with the support or knowledge of the Saudi government.


Undertoad  Thursday Mar 18 04:17 PM

So (back to HM) what Europe really doesn't like is not that it was or wasn't Iraq, nor that it was or wasn't war, nor that it was or wasn't necessary, but that the US was throwing its weight around basically without check.



Happy Monkey  Thursday Mar 18 05:15 PM

I think you're putting words in my keyboard there. I can't figure out how you get that from my post.

First, notice that I was talking about Iraq, and not Afghanistan. The fact that Iraq was irrelevant to 9-11 was definitely an issue.

And then each instance of the US throwing its weight around (rather than using diplomacy) to push the dubious goal poisoned both US prestige and any legitimacy of the goal.



Undertoad  Thursday Mar 18 06:17 PM

Yeah, basically we're at the same point on that. I wasn't putting words in your mouth so much as extending on it.



tw  Friday Mar 19 03:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Uryoces
I like to have informational links, but I believe that was due to a huge intentional blind spot in our intelligence gathering apparatus called Saudi Arabia. It's been the policy of the US government to gather no intelligence about Saudi Arabia, ...
Perspective is not accurately portrayed. Greatest problem with Middle East is that the US has few who even speak Arabic let alone are familiar with the culture. Cited as example is the girl who was CIA analyst on Afghanistan in pre- 11 Sept. She was constantly told that the Taliban were not dominate in country despite information she had that doubted that summary. On her vacation, and with knowledge of her boss, she took a trip to Afghanistan. Discovered the country entirely dominated by the Taliban - in direct contradiction to what she had been reporting. This was during George Jr's first year. When she got back, she reported what she had discovered. Instead she was arrested by the FBI for having gone to Afghanistan.

Too often, 1) basic intelligence reports are perverted by the agenda of higher ups. A difference from decades previous - 2) analysts once were first field agents. Today, most analysts have never spent any time in the country they are 'experts' on. These two facts routinely distort intelligence reports.

But it is not just in the CIA. Remember, FBI agents in AZ, MN, and IL all were on the tail of 11 Sept terrorists. And all were ordered not to investigate. The IL FBI agents are typical. They would not go public until after they had retired (for obvious reasons). They were told - no, yelled at - "You will not conduct a criminal investigation". That is an exact quote. The IL agents were following 11 Sept money trail until bosses yelled at them to stop.

It gets worse. The current president comes with 'no dirt under his fingernails". Contrast that with Kennedy whose experience said not to trust CIA report (no nuclear weapons in Cuba) and Gen Curtis LeMay (he could take out all missiles on the first strike). Fundamental difference. Intelligence has always been that murky as it is today. Problem is not the intelligence. Problem is that current top manager only knows the world from a six month crash course taught by Condolezza Rice. And then only wants to hear about things that agree with his pre-ordained conclusions.

Read the George Tenant speech again, *carefully*, with this perspective. He is a shrewd politician. He carefully worded that speech so that everyone heard what they wanted to hear. In reality, our intelligence is good and has flaws. Those flaws are normal which is why top management must be tempered with life experience. Today is really no worse than our intelligence has always been. Even the FBI could have stopped 11 Sept attacks if only top management permitted those investigators to do their job. But then how many parts of the FBI must be exposed defective before we go after top management. FBI labs fakes reports. Anti-spy group contained Soviet spies. Agents had to use their own home computers to get or transmit critical information. Agents were not permitted to investigate the 11 Sept attacks until after they happened.

But most scary and what has changed. 1) Top CIA analysts no longer come from the field. 2) Top FBI managers no longer first worked as field agents. And 3) the boss of everyone was busy doing alcohol and drugs when he should have been learning how the world really works.


wolf  Friday Apr 2 10:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by quzah

Show me a picture with:
1) Plane wreckage.
2) Scattered luggage and the like.
3) Bodies.

Explain why in the very first released photos, the grass is all there, but for some reason, they bulldoze it all away. And again, there is no wreckage at all anywhere. Compare this to the wreckage of any other aircraft you picture you'll ever see. There is no luggage; no bodies were ever recovered from this "crash". Where'd they go?
All right.

I finally got the info we needed here ...

Where was the plane? Right the fuck there.

Why didn't you see it?

The pieces were too tiny.

We are used to seeing media coverage of and photos of plane crashes.

They usually occur on take off, or landing, and often involve some control of the airfoil.

In the case of an explosion (like lockerbie or the plane than went down off long island) the plane is separated into largish chunks. I've had the opportunity to see reconstruction photos from the NTSB ... they take the recovered parts and rebuild the plane to see if they can determine cause.

What differs between this and the 9/11 crashes at the pentagon and at shanksville, is that the planes were travelling at cruising speeds (300-400 mph) or higher.

There just wasn't any plane left to find ...

I spent the last two days with two men who were present at the shenksville site ... that's Flight 93, you know, Todd Beamer, Let's Roll, and all that.

The plane went straight down into the forest. The wings carry most of the fuel. They separated from the fuselage and burned. Aviation fuel burns hot, and aircraft aluminum has a relatively low melting temp. But it didn't burn as much as you might expect. There was only a small burn area in the forest.

And a hole in the ground. The grass was pretty much there too.

The first fire companies on the scene reported "there's nothing here".

These guys have been to plane crashes before. Both of these men were at the crash of USAIR 247, which also occurred near Pittsburgh. When that plane came down, there were no intact bodies ... much of the recovery involved picking bits of people out of trees, or finding nearly unrecognizable bits of people on the ground.

They finally found the plane ... or what was left of it.

50 feet down ... in that hole.

they dug out and sifted all the dirt, looking for body parts, etc.

They found very little.

ALL the parts of the plane that were recovered fit in a dumpster.

ONE dumpster.

The experience at the Pentagon would have been similar.

No, I haven't talked to anyone who was at the Pentagon.

But I saw the pictures taken by a couple EMTs with no agenda from Shanksville.


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